Welcome to the Pro Terran Q/A! I hope to make this the one-stop destination for any Terran player in need of high level advice. It's pretty simple: you ask strategy questions and they get answered. I highly encourage other pros to contribute as well, and if we have a debate, so much the better for all of us. I'll put all of their and my answers in the OP as the thread gets updated.
I used to play for Checksix until it disbanded and am currently teamless. I have written many articles, most notably God of the Battlefield, How to Improve, or for SC2 the analysis of Liquid vs Mvp. I spend most of my sc2 time analyzing and am up to date on all major Terran pro games.
Follow me on twitter to know when I update and other articles come out: @AnalystVer
-Some good questions you should be asking for improvement include: which builds are good for my situation, how to play certain strategies, and what vods/replays are worth watching to learn this or that build.
-Feel free to cite/link pro replays/vods
-Please don't post your replays. It's simply not time efficient to go through them one by one.
-Protoss and Zerg players are welcome to ask about ZvT or PvT as well.
On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote: What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this. Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like colo.
On August 19 2012 17:46 Sianos wrote: I havesome questions regarding TvP and TvZ:
TvP:
In general is it better to have the 5 Rax before 3rd CC or the 3rd CC after 3 Rax? As i understand the difference is that you have a bigger army and a faster production when you do the 5 Rax first to pressure Protoss or force trades, while with the 3 Rax CC you´ll have a better economy but slower production, which means you have to play more defencely.
When do you add your second Starport? I thought as soon as i scout collossus, but i remember someone said that you just need the 2nd Starport when your opponent goes 2 Robo Collossus. I also don´t see pro players go for that 2nd Starport that fast aggainst Collossus.
@TvP: 'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed.
Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued.
On August 19 2012 18:33 ShaneFeit wrote: How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars?
Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.)
Can't really put it in words...it really has a lot to do with feel and knowing the practical range of your ghosts/placement in the army/timing. Basically snipe has longer range but feedback is instant cast, so if they both walk in range then try to kill, templar wins, but if Terran scans ahead and does it from range, he wins. Alternatively, you can lead with emp and use the outer radius of it to hit them, though that isn't as good as it used to be.
in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that?
I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
On August 19 2012 13:13 DeKGenetiX wrote: this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a 1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a Bio 1 Rax expand Biomech 1 Rax FE and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners.
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
On August 19 2012 14:19 Aveng3r wrote: so I have a simple question- do you think that TvZ right now is best suited for mech play or bio play? Im at the high diamond/ low master level atm. Also for mech, I dont really know if its best to open with a banshee, without a banshee, blueflame or seige first, thors before tanks, etc. I kinda just make units and eventually attack, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. I read a lot of strategy about mech, but I seem to lack a definite gameplan outside of making units, defending, and eventually attacking. Are there any words of advice you could give for a general mech gameplan? Like should I try to deny a third base with banshees? not even worry about what hes doing until I have 3 bases up and going of my own? Also sorry If this isnt quite what you are looking for in this thread, I feel like I am within the guidelines you requested but if Im not please let me know and I will redo my post, I love what you are doing with this thread and I would love to be a part of it EDIT: I saw the post above me and I like the BO you suggest, but if there is any general advice you could give on how exactly to play the midgame that the BO leads into that would be fantastic
I think bio is better TvZ for several reasons, though mech is playable. Bio simply stretches the Zerg a lot more and lets you outplay them. Mech really doesn't challenge the Zerg much at all: they have an easy hand and aren't disrupted. Bio also has a small hope of a lategame, whereas with mech you are pretty much screwed if they get broodlords and you don't have an obscene economy. In addition, Bio has small margin of error but mech has none. You don't really get second chances with mech. I personally would mech on certain maps (Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) up until a few months ago, when I had a pair of rather traumatic mech games at MLG Anaheim where I killed 80+ drones against Fuzzy and 111 versus Sheth and still lost anyway because they got to broodlords before I could kill them.
The one plus side of mech, at least for lower levels, is that it requires much less micro than bio to be very effective. For players that struggle with banelings and fungal mech can definitely boost your performance considerably.
As for a gameplan: can never actually deny the Zerg's third if they play it right. You can either do something aggressive and hope they mess up or accept that they will get full three base saturation and do what you can to get on even footing by pressuring and grabbing your own fast third. You have basically two goals with mech:
1) Massacre as many drones as you can and keep poking around with hellions all game long. You want to trade your minerals in hellions for their drones while you build up your tank/thor count, as gas will be your limiting factor and you need to do something to slow down their tech. Hellions are useful for raids the entire game, don't stop doing them ever! 2) Kill them with a 3 (or 4, on larger maps) base, either 2-2 or 3-2 timing attack, before they get broodlords.
On August 19 2012 17:10 ProfSc wrote: Firstly, thank you so much for providing such a valuable service.
As a kind of overview question, is there a database somewhere that pro players utilize that include build orders, worker benchmarks, etc.? I've come across some benchmark information, but they seem to be currently unsupported. I seem to always come across mention of such information, but upon inquiry, the information remains elusive. Basic things like trying to get to 50 workers by 10 minutes are jewels of information but remain decentralized.
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As far as strategy is concerned, I'm a low to mid-master Terran on NA, and I used to utilize Griffith's 4OC build in TvZ several seasons ago, but I would always do it blindly (like a moron). Fast forward to the GSTL finals and IPL TAC3, and it's abundantly clear—as Gumiho and Taeja demonstrated—that the fourth OC is a response to a fast zerg third (actually, my memory is faulty with respect to Gumiho's game on Atlantis Spaceship). With the understanding that a 2/2 timing is what I should be aiming for and that, at the latest, I should have my 1/1 started at 9 minutes so that 2/2 finishes by 15, I have a number of questions:
1. What do I need to safely expand to a third/fourth—do I need to go marine-tank or can I do pure bio? Are banshees effective? Is there a supply mark I should watch? 2. How aggressive can I be before 2/2 completes? Should I just turtle (it seemed to work out for Taeja against Nestea's 3-base bling bust)? Should I cut anything to try to get 2/2 faster than 15 minutes? 3. What are the most important attack times when utilizing a heavy eco opening like the 4OC or the less greedy 3OC style? Is there a zerg weakness at X time that is exploitable with heavy eco openings? 4. Do you have any general comments on 3OC or 4OC?
No database to my knowledge. Pros know a lot of the game mechanics internally by feel (intuition) and don't really worry about specific numbers much. When referencing builds to each other pros will typically go 'build x that player y used against player z on this map.' Everyone has to pay attention to the rest of the scene or fall behind. Ultimately in order to figure these things out you simply need to watch a lot of pro replays and vods.
I looked up that build and it's terrible, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays against any Zerg build that takes a fast third you need to land your third by 10 minutes at the very latest, usually earlier. Ghostking's play against Nestea in the GSL quarterfinals on Cloud kingdom is a really good example of this. What Taeja used against Losira and Nestea in IPL TAC is much better. Builds on Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis are kind of exceptions though due to the sheer rush distance. Taeja's game against Losira on Antiga is a more practical demonstration on most maps, though please keep in mind he only did that because Losira showed 3 hatch before pool with no gas, which completely rules out early timings and thus let Taeja be more greedy.
Regardless, hellion or hellion/banshee builds are almost required in TvZ for a number of reasons, the main question is when you get your cc's and upgrades. Taeja is really the only player who is successful with pure bio openings (the build he used against Annyeong on Antiga vs Prime in TAC for example). However, against a better Zerg who can spread creep faster the build wouldn't work nearly as well and is also hellishly hard to play. Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Any non fast 3 orbital build is a gimmick more or less that is probably not worth practicing. 4 orbital builds have a nice feel to them but only work if you are sure the Zerg can't do an early allin (i,e very quick 3rd).
Zergs don't really have a weakness because any weak moment they have you will still have to power through tons of creep to threaten anything. The only real time you can press quickly over creep and land a killing blow is when they are nearing the point of reaching ultras or broods, but that requires a huge amount of game sense and guess work to discern correctly. Usually the best option in TvZ is to keep pressing the 4th and force them to fight off creep and get very good trades. The more you can force them to fight off creep with lair armies the better.
As for how aggressive you can be...it's really hard to say and depends entirely on what the Zerg is doing. In general it's worth controlling your watchtower as much as you can and keeping the Zerg blind and uncertain. That really matters a lot. However if you are out on the map early (i,e with first 2 medivacs) you need to make sure you are watching your army closely and pre splitting whenever possible. i,e if you are just sitting at the watchtower and have a moment, spread your army out even if there is no immediate threat. This is the only thing that dissuades the Zerg from bum rushing you. Splitting after they've attacked is already too late.
Is there a way to go straight up into Marine-Tank-Medivac timing pushes instead of Hellion-Banshee after fax expanding? I really don´t like the big micro part in the earlygame, while i building up my base, but i don´t want to be only defensive until midgame. I´m currently experiementing with Combat Shield timings aggainst Zerg´s 3rd base. I really like to play TvZ, because i understand the matchup quite well, but i´m currently lost because i can´t find or create on opening that´s suits my style. @TvZ: Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings. On larger maps, the one he used against Nestea in the TAC grand finals works. On more normal maps, look at his TAC game vs AnnyeongPrime on Antiga.
Alternatively, you can do Reality's build which he used against Yugioh in the WCS qualifiers on Ohana (14 cc -> 2 rax -> cloak banshee with constant marine production -> cc).
On August 19 2012 09:57 Mr. Bojangles wrote: Oh wonderful that you put the option for other races to ask the question about Terran. I'm a midish Diamond league Protoss player. I've recently got beat by one of those 7 min marine/maruader pushes (not flat out, but it's what did the dmg to put me behind). The Terran did a FE and I responded with a 1 gate fast expand of myself. What I'm really confused about is finding out how it's coming. It just seems like the Terran scans, if they see units they don't push, if they don't, they push. Is it really that simple? Or is it more so a predetermined thing? If it's predetermined, how can I scout it before it comes (such as, is there any thing in his build that may give away the 7min push? If so, what is it?)
The only, non allin, marine/marauder attack that can hit that early from rax cc is a 3 rax 1 tech lab, but if you are doing a standard build (stalker expo, gas gate gate robo) you should be perfectly fine and come ahead if they actually try to press the attack. Pros almost never do this because it has a lot of risk and almost no upside, except maybe in non-tournament spawns like horizontal on Entombed which is unrealistic anyway. It's a huge risk for the Terran, particularly on a map like Antiga with the high ground and hidden space around the watchtower. If the Terran moves out like that and the Protoss allins, the Terran automatically loses the game unless they retreat very early. If the Terran is scanning you that early, you can already consider yourself ahead as it does mess with their build a lot.
This really shouldn't be much of a threat unless you are cheating on units to try and get some kind of tech/nexus up faster. I would check on your build and make sure you are executing it correctly before looking elsewhere. If you feel you are macroing correctly, then perhaps try chronoing warp gate an additional time and checking what you are warping in. Stalkers hold any marine based attack very easily, while you want to warp in sentry/zealot otherwise.
You can have an idea its coming based on what your scouting stalker(s) sees. You can control the watchtower on most maps versus pure marines, and if you see more than one marauder moving out very early, you should be wary. Terrans typically only want marines for the first several minutes of production because they need gas for stim, a reactor, factory, and +1.
[QUOTE]On August 19 2012 16:27 Ver wrote: [QUOTE]On August 19 2012 14:52 Kommatiazo wrote: BACKGROUND: I'm a Platinum Protoss and I've been really trying to do the same openign agaisnt Terrans everytime because I'm trying to work it out to a place where it will be safe against everything and still strong enough to win me the game (maybe thats obvious ). I got my opening from watching a Day9 daily on PvT openings, then from studying the Protoss in question's (SaSe) other replays to get extra info not covered in the daily.
3 chronos on probes as available 9 pylon 12 gate 15gas/pylon 18 Cy Core 20 gas (only two in each gas) Zealot x 2, Sentry x 2 out of first gate (Everything rallied to watchtowers/just outside T's ramp/preparing for a push at least) First zealot used to scout, if T has expanded, continue as planned, if on one base still, drop robo ASAP and turtle until ob scouts) 22 pylon Warp Gate (3 chronos) Pylon 2 more gates (When 2nd sentry finishes) Stalker (1 chrono) 27 Nexus (all chronos on probes now, CONSTANT PROBE PRODUCTION) Add tech (robo/more gates) during pressure reactively, earlier if pressure fails or BO counter scouted, etc etc
THE POINT OF THIS POST: I wil lay out my gameplan/noob assumptions/meta/tactics on the table with nothing held back. If you (or another extremely generous Terran that this topic is geared towards, seriously, you are a BOSS for starting this thread, I hope it grows really quickly) would be so kind as to rip it apart, tell me where I'm totally wrong, totally smart, or just plain confused on stuff that would be GREAT!!! Obviously I'm talking the stuff specific to interaction with Terrans (I don't expect you to correct protoss-y stuff.
So basically, my gameplan is to A) survive 1 base attacks that hit <7:00 B)Punish early expands with 7-8:00 push C.1)KILL HIM C.2)Do some (typically econ) damage, then contain until 9:30ish when medivacs/stim bio come out then pull back D)win in a macro game with a good economic lead already established and support with WP harass and/or (especially when heavy SCV losses are inflicted early) DT harass
My first zealot walks up his ramp, typically sees a bunker and some Marines + Show Spoiler +
If I see he HASN'T expanded then I'll check up his ramp, it USUALLY is walled off but I generally assume scary stuff like 1-1-1 cloaked banshees or nuke rush or something and pull back and cower until I get my robo up (I drop it ASAP when I see a non-expand build) and an obs in to scout for reals
(sometimes a maruader or two) at his natural with a CC building/completed/whatever, the earlier he took it the better for my push. at 6:00, then 1 cooldown later I warp in at his front with 1 Zealot and 5 stalkers so my army is 3 Zealots, 2 Sentires, and 5 stalkers just before 7:00. I march up his ramp and micro my units (FF bunkers to prevent repairs or if they are empty to prevent marines from getting in) and try to push in as much as possible. I macro probes and warp in more units as needed depending on how the battle went. Worst case scenario we trade evenly and no econ damage is done (other than some lost mining time on a few scvs or something), best case scenario is (as long as I don't just KILL him) I push him back into his main and deny any expansion until he has medivacs/stim at around the 10:00 mark, either scenario I then pull back onto my colossus tech, constructing 3rd base and bigger army. I get out a warp prism and drop 4 zealots (sometimes DT's/HT's with storm) later on)into his natural mineral line as soon as I see him move out (whether it be a drop or push at the front), and continue to do so every time he is about to pressure me (I keep a vigilant watch on watchtowers/obs at the front) while trying to NOT DIE while I get out colossus tech followed by HT's with storm. When I drop, if econ damage isn't an option I try to snipe EBays>Starports/reactors>Production. I get up to 200/200, 3/3, charge, etc, etc. then engage him on MY terms and hopefully force out a gg. FF's. Storms, and Colossi and my gosu platinum micro are typically enough.
A more specific question that I forgot to mention after writing ^that: Is that 7-8 minute push (3 Z, 2 Sentry, 5 Stalkers) scary against a typical FE build? It was in all the SaSe games I've watched, but that amounts to a total of 10 games or something, and in all those games the T went for greedy FE builds (1 rax->CC was what it was mostly, is that normal against P?) I'm trying to get to masters by the end of 2012, so as I go up the rankings, will this gameplan (especially the early part) continue to serve me well (assuming no drastic shifts in metagame/HoTS stuff)? Is it a silly gambit that is only paying off against plat/diamond T's?
I would say that pro Terrans will rax cc about 80% of their games nowadays. Yes, that nexus 3 gate attack can be pretty threatening to pro players but it's basically a coinflip. If he builds 2 bunkers he is safe and he can potentially hold with 1 too if scvs are pulled. If you don't do damage you are pretty far behind but not horribly lost, and if you realize you can't break him but he pulled scvs, you can just target scvs while chronoing probes and come off ok. You just never want to trade your entire army and not smash his position. All in all I think it's an excellent choice if your goal is simply to get to masters. Honestly I can't see many <masters players holding it.
The most important thing with it is you cannot let the Terran sneak their scv into your base once you've committed to it and you also need to be able to take the watchtower and prevent them from seeing your moveout/forward pylon. It's a pretty awkward build though since you normally go zealot -> stalker -> sentry and with this your stalker is so late, so its harder to deny a scout and you are more vulnerable to certain early timings.
The warp prism idea is excellent and I cannot emphasize how important that is. Almost none of the non-kespa pro players do it yet it is so powerful.
The one thing I was concerned about reading your description is where you allocated your attention (80-90% on the early game, with the rest almost an after thought). That attack is not particularly allin, and versus decent players you will most likely not actually kill/cripple them with it if they have some kind of experience against it. If you want to improve you need to have a much more concrete plan in the midgame and focus on that more. I'm guessing that low level players simply can't handle that 3 gate timing if they rax cc but once you go up in level people will be more capable of holding it. Let me give you some questions you should be considering for the midgame (assuming you come off even from the opening and he does rax cc):
1) How do you defend against the first 2 medivac timing attack/elevator? 2) When do you get forges? 3) When do you get charge/blink? 4) As you are going colossus first, how do you stop them from dropping you to death? Because you are making a warp prism, how many observers can you squeeze out? Are you max chronoing the robo? 5) When do you take your third? Do you know the difference in Terran play between the third cc off of 3 barracks and starport and more heavy 2 base 5 rax/medivac before 3rd cc and how to react to each? 6) When do you stop making colossus? When is the templar transition? When do you start remaking colossus and adding a second robo?[/QUOTE]
Oh wonderful that you put the option for other races to ask the question about Terran. I'm a midish Diamond league Protoss player. I've recently got beat by one of those 7 min marine/maruader pushes (not flat out, but it's what did the dmg to put me behind). The Terran did a FE and I responded with a 1 gate fast expand of myself. What I'm really confused about is finding out how it's coming. It just seems like the Terran scans, if they see units they don't push, if they don't, they push. Is it really that simple? Or is it more so a predetermined thing? If it's predetermined, how can I scout it before it comes (such as, is there any thing in his build that may give away the 7min push? If so, what is it?)
On August 19 2012 09:57 Mr. Bojangles wrote: Oh wonderful that you put the option for other races to ask the question about Terran. I'm a midish Diamond league Protoss player. I've recently got beat by one of those 7 min marine/maruader pushes (not flat out, but it's what did the dmg to put me behind). The Terran did a FE and I responded with a 1 gate fast expand of myself. What I'm really confused about is finding out how it's coming. It just seems like the Terran scans, if they see units they don't push, if they don't, they push. Is it really that simple? Or is it more so a predetermined thing? If it's predetermined, how can I scout it before it comes (such as, is there any thing in his build that may give away the 7min push? If so, what is it?)
The only, non allin, marine/marauder attack that can hit that early from rax cc is a 3 rax 1 tech lab, but if you are doing a standard build (stalker expo, gas gate gate robo) you should be perfectly fine and come ahead if they actually try to press the attack. Pros almost never do this because it has a lot of risk and almost no upside, except maybe in non-tournament spawns like horizontal on Entombed which is unrealistic anyway. It's a huge risk for the Terran, particularly on a map like Antiga with the high ground and hidden space around the watchtower. If the Terran moves out like that and the Protoss allins, the Terran automatically loses the game unless they retreat very early. If the Terran is scanning you that early, you can already consider yourself ahead as it does mess with their build a lot.
This really shouldn't be much of a threat unless you are cheating on units to try and get some kind of tech/nexus up faster. I would check on your build and make sure you are executing it correctly before looking elsewhere. If you feel you are macroing correctly, then perhaps try chronoing warp gate an additional time and checking what you are warping in. Stalkers hold any marine based attack very easily, while you want to warp in sentry/zealot otherwise.
You can have an idea its coming based on what your scouting stalker(s) sees. You can control the watchtower on most maps versus pure marines, and if you see a marauder moving out very early, you should be wary. Terrans typically only want marines for the first several minutes of production because they need gas for stim, a reactor, factory, and +1.
this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a 1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a Bio 1 Rax expand Biomech 1 Rax FE and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners.
On August 19 2012 13:13 DeKGenetiX wrote: this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a 1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a Bio 1 Rax expand Biomech 1 Rax FE and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners.
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
so I have a simple question- do you think that TvZ right now is best suited for mech play or bio play? Im at the high diamond/ low master level atm. Also for mech, I dont really know if its best to open with a banshee, without a banshee, blueflame or seige first, thors before tanks, etc. I kinda just make units and eventually attack, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. I read a lot of strategy about mech, but I seem to lack a definite gameplan outside of making units, defending, and eventually attacking. Are there any words of advice you could give for a general mech gameplan? Like should I try to deny a third base with banshees? not even worry about what hes doing until I have 3 bases up and going of my own? Also sorry If this isnt quite what you are looking for in this thread, I feel like I am within the guidelines you requested but if Im not please let me know and I will redo my post, I love what you are doing with this thread and I would love to be a part of it EDIT: I saw the post above me and I like the BO you suggest, but if there is any general advice you could give on how exactly to play the midgame that the BO leads into that would be fantastic
I would say mech is viable but so is Marine tank and maybe pure bio (though I'm not a huge fan of it anymore since zergs sometimes make mutalisks). I don't think any particular strategy is better then the others, but I think Mech is only a sometimes strategy, it tends to work a lot since Zerg aren't ready for it and have to rearrange their gameplan once they notice you're on Mech.
You're in high diamond so as long as you have good execution any strategy is viable really.
I think Mech has to open with a lot of pressure to be any good, otherwise Zerg just explodes out of control and drops infinity roaches on you. I like MVP's straightforward banshee/hellion play, but Kas's blue flame drops also seem kinda nice. As long as you're killing drones you're doing something right. Just try not to go overboard and have no anti air out once the mutas show up.
BACKGROUND: I'm a Platinum Protoss and I've been really trying to do the same openign agaisnt Terrans everytime because I'm trying to work it out to a place where it will be safe against everything and still strong enough to win me the game (maybe thats obvious ). I got my opening from watching a Day9 daily on PvT openings, then from studying the Protoss in question's (SaSe) other replays to get extra info not covered in the daily.
3 chronos on probes as available 9 pylon 12 gate 15gas/pylon 18 Cy Core 20 gas (only two in each gas) Zealot x 2, Sentry x 2 out of first gate (Everything rallied to watchtowers/just outside T's ramp/preparing for a push at least) First zealot used to scout, if T has expanded, continue as planned, if on one base still, drop robo ASAP and turtle until ob scouts) 22 pylon Warp Gate (3 chronos) Pylon 2 more gates (When 2nd sentry finishes) Stalker (1 chrono) 27 Nexus (all chronos on probes now, CONSTANT PROBE PRODUCTION) Add tech (robo/more gates) during pressure reactively, earlier if pressure fails or BO counter scouted, etc etc
THE POINT OF THIS POST: I wil lay out my gameplan/noob assumptions/meta/tactics on the table with nothing held back. If you (or another extremely generous Terran that this topic is geared towards, seriously, you are a BOSS for starting this thread, I hope it grows really quickly) would be so kind as to rip it apart, tell me where I'm totally wrong, totally smart, or just plain confused on stuff that would be GREAT!!! Obviously I'm talking the stuff specific to interaction with Terrans (I don't expect you to correct protoss-y stuff.
So basically, my gameplan is to A) survive 1 base attacks that hit <7:00 B)Punish early expands with 7-8:00 push C.1)KILL HIM C.2)Do some (typically econ) damage, then contain until 9:30ish when medivacs/stim bio come out then pull back D)win in a macro game with a good economic lead already established and support with WP harass and/or (especially when heavy SCV losses are inflicted early) DT harass
My first zealot walks up his ramp, typically sees a bunker and some Marines + Show Spoiler +
If I see he HASN'T expanded then I'll check up his ramp, it USUALLY is walled off but I generally assume scary stuff like 1-1-1 cloaked banshees or nuke rush or something and pull back and cower until I get my robo up (I drop it ASAP when I see a non-expand build) and an obs in to scout for reals
(sometimes a maruader or two) at his natural with a CC building/completed/whatever, the earlier he took it the better for my push. at 6:00, then 1 cooldown later I warp in at his front with 1 Zealot and 5 stalkers so my army is 3 Zealots, 2 Sentires, and 5 stalkers just before 7:00. I march up his ramp and micro my units (FF bunkers to prevent repairs or if they are empty to prevent marines from getting in) and try to push in as much as possible. I macro probes and warp in more units as needed depending on how the battle went. Worst case scenario we trade evenly and no econ damage is done (other than some lost mining time on a few scvs or something), best case scenario is (as long as I don't just KILL him) I push him back into his main and deny any expansion until he has medivacs/stim at around the 10:00 mark, either scenario I then pull back onto my colossus tech, constructing 3rd base and bigger army. I get out a warp prism and drop 4 zealots (sometimes DT's/HT's with storm) later on)into his natural mineral line as soon as I see him move out (whether it be a drop or push at the front), and continue to do so every time he is about to pressure me (I keep a vigilant watch on watchtowers/obs at the front) while trying to NOT DIE while I get out colossus tech followed by HT's with storm. When I drop, if econ damage isn't an option I try to snipe EBays>Starports/reactors>Production. I get up to 200/200, 3/3, charge, etc, etc. then engage him on MY terms and hopefully force out a gg. FF's. Storms, and Colossi and my gosu platinum micro are typically enough.
A more specific question that I forgot to mention after writing ^that: Is that 7-8 minute push (3 Z, 2 Sentry, 5 Stalkers) scary against a typical FE build? It was in all the SaSe games I've watched, but that amounts to a total of 10 games or something, and in all those games the T went for greedy FE builds (1 rax->CC was what it was mostly, is that normal against P?) I'm trying to get to masters by the end of 2012, so as I go up the rankings, will this gameplan (especially the early part) continue to serve me well (assuming no drastic shifts in metagame/HoTS stuff)? Is it a silly gambit that is only paying off against plat/diamond T's?
On August 19 2012 14:19 Aveng3r wrote: so I have a simple question- do you think that TvZ right now is best suited for mech play or bio play? Im at the high diamond/ low master level atm. Also for mech, I dont really know if its best to open with a banshee, without a banshee, blueflame or seige first, thors before tanks, etc. I kinda just make units and eventually attack, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. I read a lot of strategy about mech, but I seem to lack a definite gameplan outside of making units, defending, and eventually attacking. Are there any words of advice you could give for a general mech gameplan? Like should I try to deny a third base with banshees? not even worry about what hes doing until I have 3 bases up and going of my own? Also sorry If this isnt quite what you are looking for in this thread, I feel like I am within the guidelines you requested but if Im not please let me know and I will redo my post, I love what you are doing with this thread and I would love to be a part of it EDIT: I saw the post above me and I like the BO you suggest, but if there is any general advice you could give on how exactly to play the midgame that the BO leads into that would be fantastic
I think bio is better TvZ for several reasons, though mech is playable. Bio simply stretches the Zerg a lot more and lets you outplay them. Mech really doesn't challenge the Zerg much at all: they have an easy hand and aren't disrupted. Bio also has a small hope of a lategame, whereas with mech you are pretty much screwed if they get broodlords and you don't have an obscene economy. In addition, Bio has small margin of error but mech has none. You don't really get second chances with mech. I personally would mech on certain maps (Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) up until a few months ago, when I had a pair of rather traumatic mech games at MLG Anaheim where I killed 80+ drones against Fuzzy and 111 versus Sheth and still lost anyway because they got to broodlords before I could kill them.
The one plus side of mech, at least for lower levels, is that it requires much less micro than bio to be very effective. For players that struggle with banelings and fungal mech can definitely boost your performance considerably.
As for a gameplan: can never actually deny the Zerg's third if they play it right. You can either do something aggressive and hope they mess up or accept that they will get full three base saturation and do what you can to get on even footing by pressuring and grabbing your own fast third. You have basically two goals with mech:
1) Massacre as many drones as you can and keep poking around with hellions all game long. You want to trade your minerals in hellions for their drones while you build up your tank/thor count, as gas will be your limiting factor and you need to do something to slow down their tech. Hellions are useful for raids the entire game, don't stop doing them ever! 2) Kill them with a 3 (or 4, on larger maps) base, either 2-2 or 3-2 timing attack, before they get broodlords.
On August 19 2012 14:52 Kommatiazo wrote: BACKGROUND: I'm a Platinum Protoss and I've been really trying to do the same openign agaisnt Terrans everytime because I'm trying to work it out to a place where it will be safe against everything and still strong enough to win me the game (maybe thats obvious ). I got my opening from watching a Day9 daily on PvT openings, then from studying the Protoss in question's (SaSe) other replays to get extra info not covered in the daily.
3 chronos on probes as available 9 pylon 12 gate 15gas/pylon 18 Cy Core 20 gas (only two in each gas) Zealot x 2, Sentry x 2 out of first gate (Everything rallied to watchtowers/just outside T's ramp/preparing for a push at least) First zealot used to scout, if T has expanded, continue as planned, if on one base still, drop robo ASAP and turtle until ob scouts) 22 pylon Warp Gate (3 chronos) Pylon 2 more gates (When 2nd sentry finishes) Stalker (1 chrono) 27 Nexus (all chronos on probes now, CONSTANT PROBE PRODUCTION) Add tech (robo/more gates) during pressure reactively, earlier if pressure fails or BO counter scouted, etc etc
THE POINT OF THIS POST: I wil lay out my gameplan/noob assumptions/meta/tactics on the table with nothing held back. If you (or another extremely generous Terran that this topic is geared towards, seriously, you are a BOSS for starting this thread, I hope it grows really quickly) would be so kind as to rip it apart, tell me where I'm totally wrong, totally smart, or just plain confused on stuff that would be GREAT!!! Obviously I'm talking the stuff specific to interaction with Terrans (I don't expect you to correct protoss-y stuff.
So basically, my gameplan is to A) survive 1 base attacks that hit <7:00 B)Punish early expands with 7-8:00 push C.1)KILL HIM C.2)Do some (typically econ) damage, then contain until 9:30ish when medivacs/stim bio come out then pull back D)win in a macro game with a good economic lead already established and support with WP harass and/or (especially when heavy SCV losses are inflicted early) DT harass
My first zealot walks up his ramp, typically sees a bunker and some Marines + Show Spoiler +
If I see he HASN'T expanded then I'll check up his ramp, it USUALLY is walled off but I generally assume scary stuff like 1-1-1 cloaked banshees or nuke rush or something and pull back and cower until I get my robo up (I drop it ASAP when I see a non-expand build) and an obs in to scout for reals
(sometimes a maruader or two) at his natural with a CC building/completed/whatever, the earlier he took it the better for my push. at 6:00, then 1 cooldown later I warp in at his front with 1 Zealot and 5 stalkers so my army is 3 Zealots, 2 Sentires, and 5 stalkers just before 7:00. I march up his ramp and micro my units (FF bunkers to prevent repairs or if they are empty to prevent marines from getting in) and try to push in as much as possible. I macro probes and warp in more units as needed depending on how the battle went. Worst case scenario we trade evenly and no econ damage is done (other than some lost mining time on a few scvs or something), best case scenario is (as long as I don't just KILL him) I push him back into his main and deny any expansion until he has medivacs/stim at around the 10:00 mark, either scenario I then pull back onto my colossus tech, constructing 3rd base and bigger army. I get out a warp prism and drop 4 zealots (sometimes DT's/HT's with storm) later on)into his natural mineral line as soon as I see him move out (whether it be a drop or push at the front), and continue to do so every time he is about to pressure me (I keep a vigilant watch on watchtowers/obs at the front) while trying to NOT DIE while I get out colossus tech followed by HT's with storm. When I drop, if econ damage isn't an option I try to snipe EBays>Starports/reactors>Production. I get up to 200/200, 3/3, charge, etc, etc. then engage him on MY terms and hopefully force out a gg. FF's. Storms, and Colossi and my gosu platinum micro are typically enough.
A more specific question that I forgot to mention after writing ^that: Is that 7-8 minute push (3 Z, 2 Sentry, 5 Stalkers) scary against a typical FE build? It was in all the SaSe games I've watched, but that amounts to a total of 10 games or something, and in all those games the T went for greedy FE builds (1 rax->CC was what it was mostly, is that normal against P?) I'm trying to get to masters by the end of 2012, so as I go up the rankings, will this gameplan (especially the early part) continue to serve me well (assuming no drastic shifts in metagame/HoTS stuff)? Is it a silly gambit that is only paying off against plat/diamond T's?
I would say that pro Terrans will rax cc about 80% of their games nowadays. Yes, that nexus 3 gate attack can be pretty threatening to pro players but it's basically a coinflip. If he builds 2 bunkers he is safe and he can potentially hold with 1 too if scvs are pulled. If you don't do damage you are pretty far behind but not horribly lost, and if you realize you can't break him but he pulled scvs, you can just target scvs while chronoing probes and come off ok. You just never want to trade your entire army and not smash his position. All in all I think it's an excellent choice if your goal is simply to get to masters. Honestly I can't see many <masters players holding it.
The most important thing with it is you cannot let the Terran sneak their scv into your base once you've committed to it and you also need to be able to take the watchtower and prevent them from seeing your moveout/forward pylon. It's a pretty awkward build though since you normally go zealot -> stalker -> sentry and with this your stalker is so late, so its harder to deny a scout and you are more vulnerable to certain early timings.
The warp prism idea is excellent and I cannot emphasize how important that is. Almost none of the non-kespa pro players do it yet it is so powerful.
The one thing I was concerned about reading your description is where you allocated your attention (80-90% on the early game, with the rest almost an after thought). That attack is not particularly allin, and versus decent players you will most likely not actually kill/cripple them with it if they have some kind of experience against it. If you want to improve you need to have a much more concrete plan in the midgame and focus on that more. I'm guessing that low level players simply can't handle that 3 gate timing if they rax cc but once you go up in level people will be more capable of holding it. Let me give you some questions you should be considering for the midgame (assuming you come off even from the opening and he does rax cc):
1) How do you defend against the first 2 medivac timing attack/elevator? 2) When do you get forges? 3) When do you get charge/blink? 4) As you are going colossus first, how do you stop them from dropping you to death? Because you are making a warp prism, how many observers can you squeeze out? Are you max chronoing the robo? 5) When do you take your third? Do you know the difference in Terran play between the third cc off of 3 barracks and starport and more heavy 2 base 5 rax/medivac before 3rd cc and how to react to each? 6) When do you stop making colossus? When is the templar transition? When do you start remaking colossus and adding a second robo?
Firstly, thank you so much for providing such a valuable service.
As a kind of overview question, is there a database somewhere that pro players utilize that include build orders, worker benchmarks, etc.? I've come across some benchmark information, but they seem to be currently unsupported. I seem to always come across mention of such information, but upon inquiry, the information remains elusive. Basic things like trying to get to 50 workers by 10 minutes are jewels of information but remain decentralized.
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As far as strategy is concerned, I'm a low to mid-master Terran on NA, and I used to utilize Griffith's 4OC build in TvZ several seasons ago, but I would always do it blindly (like a moron). Fast forward to the GSTL finals and IPL TAC3, and it's abundantly clear—as Gumiho and Taeja demonstrated—that the fourth OC is a response to a fast zerg third (actually, my memory is faulty with respect to Gumiho's game on Atlantis Spaceship). With the understanding that a 2/2 timing is what I should be aiming for and that, at the latest, I should have my 1/1 started at 9 minutes so that 2/2 finishes by 15, I have a number of questions:
1. What do I need to safely expand to a third/fourth—do I need to go marine-tank or can I do pure bio? Are banshees effective? Is there a supply mark I should watch? 2. How aggressive can I be before 2/2 completes? Should I just turtle (it seemed to work out for Taeja against Nestea's 3-base bling bust)? Should I cut anything to try to get 2/2 faster than 15 minutes? 3. What are the most important attack times when utilizing a heavy eco opening like the 4OC or the less greedy 3OC style? Is there a zerg weakness at X time that is exploitable with heavy eco openings? 4. Do you have any general comments on 3OC or 4OC?
What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
//edit one more question in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that?
In general is it better to have the 5 Rax before 3rd CC or the 3rd CC after 3 Rax? As i understand the difference is that you have a bigger army and a faster production when you do the 5 Rax first to pressure Protoss or force trades, while with the 3 Rax CC you´ll have a better economy but slower production, which means you have to play more defencely.
When do you add your second Starport? I thought as soon as i scout collossus, but i remember someone said that you just need the 2nd Starport when your opponent goes 2 Robo Collossus. I also don´t see pro players go for that 2nd Starport that fast aggainst Collossus.
TvZ:
Is there a way to go straight up into Marine-Tank-Medivac timing pushes instead of Hellion-Banshee after fax expanding? I really don´t like the big micro part in the earlygame, while i building up my base, but i don´t want to be only defensive until midgame. I´m currently experiementing with Combat Shield timings aggainst Zerg´s 3rd base. I really like to play TvZ, because i understand the matchup quite well, but i´m currently lost because i can´t find or create on opening that´s suits my style.
How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars?
Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.)
I feel way to scared when playing against 2 rax gas (PvT) am I overreacting to choose to go 3 gate expo or can is it still plausible to do a 1 gate FE? If so, what would my unit comp be in order to stop some of that early aggression?
What do you look for when you scv-scout in TvZ(let's say it's a 2-player map, so we know where he spawned)? I can't really understand the gas timings, because sometimes people just go for a fast lingspeed to be safe, and with the same gas-timing it might be a 5-7 roach rush. The scout doesn't always survive long enough to see if he mines >100 gas, and the zerg could also pull off drones from gas for a few seconds to trick me. Zergs always open 15 hatch, and I don't go cc first so 3rd hatch before pool is out of the question.
I know how that goes in theory but often screw up positioning in practice. What is the best and simple way generally speaking to make protoss engage in an unfavorable way? Especially on maps like cloud kingdom i find it nearly impossible to drop and also to split the protoss attention very much cause he can easily cover both bases and get the tech of their choice + max out. I feel like as Terran it's really difiicult to do sth about that on maps like cloud. What's your point on that?
2) How do you get an Edge vs Protoss if your well known 10 Minute timing completly fails?
Most Protoss just deflect it with relative ease and i am not able to drop in the main / natural due to well spread stalkers and do not really have a chance to attack the front due to sentrys. So where do i get an edge then? He will get to collosi eventually and force me back. I think the question from Sianos comes here into play also, is 5rax before cc or cc before 5rax better? What do you think about thorzains way of getting all of them together around 9:30 and relying on 2 rax till then with a fast medivac timing (e.g. recent day9 daily and alot of his recent games as reference).
3) Some Advice and suggestions on my Bio Build and the guide in general.
See this as a rather personal request than a general question but as you also mentioned bio play in tvz i would really appreciate that you, as someone with pro gaming experience, may take a look at my bio guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554 And especially the build i have there. Is there something you would change and if what and to which extend? I'd really appreciate some improvements if you could find some weak points.
Best Regards and again thanks alot!
E: 4) Regarding TvT - Which opening would you recommend on master level that can put on some pressure but also get a relativly quick expand?
I am very much so a more agressive player and also utilized a 2rax reaper opening not to long ago which is not really viable if countered correctly, so i am looking for some alternatives. The downside i often see is that most 1-1-1 builds etc. get really late expansions which require them to do alot of dmg. Is there some kind middle of the road where you get a relativly fast expand which also enables you to pressure hard afterwards?
5) Do you see "revolutionary" potential in anything across all terran matchups? By that i mean units/builds that are not really popular or explored (Even if i do not play it skyterran in TvZ comes to mind) which could wildley change the matchup?
How do we apply what we learned from sAviOr's play in your FE God of the Battlefield to our Terran play in all Matchups? How do you think we are able to fix the weaknesses in Mech play in TvP with what we currently have? If you could answers it would mean a lot to me. Thanks man
On August 19 2012 13:13 DeKGenetiX wrote: this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a 1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a Bio 1 Rax expand Biomech 1 Rax FE and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners.
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
You mention a fast armory build going into mech tvz, do you have a fairly recent replay of this, that u wouldnt mind posting/uploading, Im always eager to learn alternate mech openings.
also while im writing this, can you explain why the 1 rax expo into 2 factory (1 tech lab - 1 reactor) seems to have faded out of popularity) , is it the increasingly focus on econ openings? or something in the metagame that changed?
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
I'm like 1.35k, take what I say with a grain of salt.
Early game: Marine heavy is necessary for the chargelot style that most protosses use now, which basically negates the kiting shinanigans in favor of sitting there with your marines after some splitting and see who can outdps faster. Marauders are extremely bad against chargelots. Depending on the timings, and certainly in the current metagame, it is a coinflip to go 2techlab because of a bunch of protoss builds that basically hardcounters it. 2 reactor 1 techlab gives you an easy way to transition out even if you don't do a bunch of damage.
As for the late game: The MKP vs. Parting games come to mind where kiting is heavily used vs. a chargelot storm composition, but since then TvP has evolved to a lot of the Taeja style mass marine ghost viking brunt damage play, where the whole deal is that you have so many cloaked ghosts and vikings that not a single storm can land. Terrans are good enough to consider storms landed as a mistake than an inevitability now.
I think as terrans get better, marauders are going to be more and more sparingly made.
What is your opinion on blind building a bunker at protoss nat on 16 supply with a 1rax mara FE?
How about the qxc bunker? do you have any experience with followups the zerg can do regarding it?
I've been experimenting quite a bit with both of these builds and they seem to throw the games wildly in my favor as there is very very little guessing (i know when they expanded, if they have probes out, zerg is only on 2 base, only made x queens, no creep spread etc) and I think they might be incorporated more into the metagame.
You played against my protoss friend at MLG, nice to see a thread like this ^^
On August 19 2012 17:10 ProfSc wrote: Firstly, thank you so much for providing such a valuable service.
As a kind of overview question, is there a database somewhere that pro players utilize that include build orders, worker benchmarks, etc.? I've come across some benchmark information, but they seem to be currently unsupported. I seem to always come across mention of such information, but upon inquiry, the information remains elusive. Basic things like trying to get to 50 workers by 10 minutes are jewels of information but remain decentralized.
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As far as strategy is concerned, I'm a low to mid-master Terran on NA, and I used to utilize Griffith's 4OC build in TvZ several seasons ago, but I would always do it blindly (like a moron). Fast forward to the GSTL finals and IPL TAC3, and it's abundantly clear—as Gumiho and Taeja demonstrated—that the fourth OC is a response to a fast zerg third (actually, my memory is faulty with respect to Gumiho's game on Atlantis Spaceship). With the understanding that a 2/2 timing is what I should be aiming for and that, at the latest, I should have my 1/1 started at 9 minutes so that 2/2 finishes by 15, I have a number of questions:
1. What do I need to safely expand to a third/fourth—do I need to go marine-tank or can I do pure bio? Are banshees effective? Is there a supply mark I should watch? 2. How aggressive can I be before 2/2 completes? Should I just turtle (it seemed to work out for Taeja against Nestea's 3-base bling bust)? Should I cut anything to try to get 2/2 faster than 15 minutes? 3. What are the most important attack times when utilizing a heavy eco opening like the 4OC or the less greedy 3OC style? Is there a zerg weakness at X time that is exploitable with heavy eco openings? 4. Do you have any general comments on 3OC or 4OC?
No database to my knowledge. Pros know a lot of the game mechanics internally by feel (intuition) and don't really worry about specific numbers much. When referencing builds to each other pros will typically go 'build x that player y used against player z on this map.' Everyone has to pay attention to the rest of the scene or fall behind. Ultimately in order to figure these things out you simply need to watch a lot of pro replays and vods.
I looked up that build and it's terrible, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays against any Zerg build that takes a fast third you need to land your third by 10 minutes at the very latest, usually earlier. Ghostking's play against Nestea in the GSL quarterfinals on Cloud kingdom is a really good example of this. What Taeja used against Losira and Nestea in IPL TAC is much better. Builds on Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis are kind of exceptions though due to the sheer rush distance. Taeja's game against Losira on Antiga is a more practical demonstration on most maps, though please keep in mind he only did that because Losira showed 3 hatch before pool with no gas, which completely rules out early timings and thus let Taeja be more greedy.
Regardless, hellion or hellion/banshee builds are almost required in TvZ for a number of reasons, the main question is when you get your cc's and upgrades. Taeja is really the only player who is successful with pure bio openings (the build he used against Annyeong on Antiga vs Prime in TAC for example). However, against a better Zerg who can spread creep faster the build wouldn't work nearly as well and is also hellishly hard to play. Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Any non fast 3 orbital build is a gimmick more or less that is probably not worth practicing. 4 orbital builds have a nice feel to them but only work if you are sure the Zerg can't do an early allin (i,e very quick 3rd).
Zergs don't really have a weakness because any weak moment they have you will still have to power through tons of creep to threaten anything. The only real time you can press quickly over creep and land a killing blow is when they are nearing the point of reaching ultras or broods, but that requires a huge amount of game sense and guess work to discern correctly. Usually the best option in TvZ is to keep pressing the 4th and force them to fight off creep and get very good trades. The more you can force them to fight off creep with lair armies the better.
As for how aggressive you can be...it's really hard to say and depends entirely on what the Zerg is doing. In general it's worth controlling your watchtower as much as you can and keeping the Zerg blind and uncertain. That really matters a lot. However if you are out on the map early (i,e with first 2 medivacs) you need to make sure you are watching your army closely and pre splitting whenever possible. i,e if you are just sitting at the watchtower and have a moment, spread your army out even if there is no immediate threat. This is the only thing that dissuades the Zerg from bum rushing you. Splitting after they've attacked is already too late.
On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote: What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
//edit one more question in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that?
If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
@TvT- I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote: What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
//edit one more question in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that?
If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
@TvT- I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
I really, really appreciate your answers, thanks. I never thought about the observers. I will try to drop and push the natural now with the rest of the army. for the tvt thing i dont really know, but i will definitly try it out. tyvm
HiHi, i play full bio in tvz, but get caught with my pants down with infestor fungals, is there a way to have pre warning? i've tried stim marines but they don't get out far enough for me to have a reliable tell. Is it just scanning ahead all the time? until he attacks?
On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this. Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like colo.
On August 19 2012 14:19 Aveng3r wrote: so I have a simple question- do you think that TvZ right now is best suited for mech play or bio play? Im at the high diamond/ low master level atm. Also for mech, I dont really know if its best to open with a banshee, without a banshee, blueflame or seige first, thors before tanks, etc. I kinda just make units and eventually attack, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. I read a lot of strategy about mech, but I seem to lack a definite gameplan outside of making units, defending, and eventually attacking. Are there any words of advice you could give for a general mech gameplan? Like should I try to deny a third base with banshees? not even worry about what hes doing until I have 3 bases up and going of my own? Also sorry If this isnt quite what you are looking for in this thread, I feel like I am within the guidelines you requested but if Im not please let me know and I will redo my post, I love what you are doing with this thread and I would love to be a part of it EDIT: I saw the post above me and I like the BO you suggest, but if there is any general advice you could give on how exactly to play the midgame that the BO leads into that would be fantastic
As a diamond zerg player I could tell that the most difficulty I get is vs marine + maurader + medivac and get easies wins vs mech. Vs mech I would move my roaches then stream lings in and go in with my infestors to get some neural parasites (ofc broodlords work well but often first push comes before I have them) and crush that army. Rebuilding mech is much harder and gives a huge time of breath for zerg. Where MMM seems to never stop. I often cant get decent trades to spare some gass for hive tech. And when they get to 3/3 they hardly die vs huge investment into banelings. They just run in snipe hatch, drop, snipe tech, that mobility they got feels so insane.
I realy think terran in tvz would be most powerfull if they would turtle, get a bunch of oc and then start sacing scvs to get supply lead - then go kill zerg. And terran that has planetaries and walls everywhere feels sometimes impossible to break.
Hi, thanks a lot for doing this. Random masters player here, having some trouble with TvP.
I'm using the build from Drewbie's guide ( http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456 ). It gets 4 rax then 2 gas at around 35 supply, and you basically make a ton of marines for a while. Is this build outdated? I feel extremely weak until I have stim, and have lost more than once against protoss players who camp with stalkers in front of my bunker(s), force repairing and lost mining time, and get way ahead while I'm completely contained.
Hi i'm a gold terran (EU) and i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable. The basics of it are: gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style.
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
In TvP i currently do Bomber's build and i am having problems vs fast collosus defenses. Whenever i hit the timing of +1 medivacs, i seem to get barely smashed by the protoss who later on just roll over me. Is there any tips as to when to push vs Colossus or how to play out the mid-game?
Hello. First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. I'm currently a gold level Terran and was wondering if you can give me any tips with my build order?
So I've been using a one base timing while I expand behind the attack. I 13 and 19 gas. Factory at first 100 gas. If its Zerg I get sp right after factory , get two banshees and harass while I build up my tank/reen force. Otherwise I delay sp by about a minute and get my tank count up to bout 2-3 (with more rallying additional) and push at around the 8 minute mark off 3 rax and a SP. using the medivac to spot. Only real difference from Terran and toss is I push at the 8 minute mark. But with only 2-3 tanks total. But blue flame to help deal with Terran balls. Or a ghost or two to help deal with immortal or dts. Any thoughts?
I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also.
But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded?
Do you understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor?
I play platinum terran using the Filter-style macro build. My early game is very weak and I'd like to practice using early game all ins to work on my unit control and unit knowledge.
So: what are the best all ins to end the game early as terran against T, Z or P? I almost never Terran succeed at one in tournaments so I'm not sure where to look.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
After a 1rax fe, what's the next step? I normally go into 3rax, double gas, 1 tech, rush starport, try to have drops by ~9 min? I double bunker at ramp if I scout aggression, and sometimes add ebay if I don't see expo. However, I'm a little unsure about 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?) 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down. 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient. 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively.
Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always?
6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game.
Also: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too.
2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel.
I normally 1rax fe into double gas, factory, 3rd oc while this is happening and double upgrades, 4x hellions (or 0/2 depending if I don't see an early 3rd), and go for a 14 minute 2/2 1/0 almost max push of mm tank + a few medivacs. I normally only start to drop now or, sometimes send out a double drop instead of attacking and just turtle by my fourth. If this attack doesn't bring the Zerg down to 3base/significantly hurt them I normally just start dropping like mad vs hive tech and hoping to get lucky, or just turtling behind a huge wall of tank/viking and slowly trying to transition into bc and hope my opponent takes a bad fight.
1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy. 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand). 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas? 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build? 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo. 3) After I reach medivacs in Thorzains build, do I add 3rd base or go up to 5rax? 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well.
Thanks for taking the time to answer any of these! [edit: removed extra newlines :<]
oh shoot also: are there more terrans in high masters? Not as a balance talk, it's just I play for fun mostly, and honestly don't enjoy just playing against a ton of Zerg/Protoss. It's purely my personal preference but I used to like playing TvZ vs muta a lot and I really like playing TvT, both of which are situations I rarely encounter now. Lately I've just been screwing around on a friends lower level account instead of laddering my main. Am I just really unlucky, or are all the Terrans just too much better than me for me to match them on ladder?
If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik).
If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something):
- after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on)
then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map.
like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production.
hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo
Shortly after Factory.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?)
Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists, you go for a Stim/CS timing with MM.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down.
It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and are unsure about what the Protoss is doing.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient.
This should only be a problem for your third since your fourth and next bases should be PF. Try to deny Pylons on your side of the map.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively. Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always?
Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of speed Reapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenarii).
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game.
3 Reactors is fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too.
The problem is more about confirming Blink Stalkers all-ins since others 2 gas one-base all-ins require different answers. 4 rax (3 lab + one naked) should easily fend off Blink Stalkers all-in, but then again you likely won't know yet if that's this one for sure.
Aim at 26-28 SCVs with 1-1-1, 22 is not enough.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel.
It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees. Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building rax #3 4 5. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy.
Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). I'd say a good follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab one Reactor) BFH with Marines (with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech) to force Roaches or Banes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand).
Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas?
Your choice. 3 CCs before gas will not defend some Baneling busts or early Roaches pushes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build?
As you wish, but to be honest 2-bases pressure builds into third were quite weakened by Queen range 5.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so.
Early Starports are used for Banshees, if you don't want to use them you can delay Starports a bit but you should have at least 6 Medivacs for your maxed push.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Dies to Marine/Hellion elevators, some vulnerabilities to 1-1-1 but otherwise fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo.
This or BFH expand can be quite nice mech openings.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well.
Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign.
I know this isn't a strategy related question but reading through here it seems you do play mech sometimes, so it would be really useful to players just getting into it.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik).
If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something):
- after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on)
then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map.
like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production.
hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo
Shortly after Factory.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?)
Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists, you go for a Stim/CS timing with MM.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down.
It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and are unsure about what the Protoss is doing.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient.
This should only be a problem for your third since your fourth and next bases should be PF. Try to deny Pylons on your side of the map.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively. Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always?
Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of speed Reapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenarii).
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game.
3 Reactors is fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too.
The problem is more about confirming Blink Stalkers all-ins since others 2 gas one-base all-ins require different answers. 4 rax (3 lab + one naked) should easily fend off Blink Stalkers all-in, but then again you likely won't know yet if that's this one for sure.
Aim at 26-28 SCVs with 1-1-1, 22 is not enough.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel.
It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees. Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building rax #3 4 5. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy.
Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). I'd say a good follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab one Reactor) BFH with Marines (with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech) to force Roaches or Banes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand).
Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas?
Your choice. 3 CCs before gas will not defend some Baneling busts or early Roaches pushes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build?
As you wish, but to be honest 2-bases pressure builds into third were quite weakened by Queen range 5.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so.
Early Starports are used for Banshees, if you don't want to use them you can delay Starports a bit but you should have at least 6 Medivacs for your maxed push.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Dies to Marine/Hellion elevators, some vulnerabilities to 1-1-1 but otherwise fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo.
This or BFH expand can be quite nice mech openings.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well.
Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign.
Thanks a ton! I'll edit my question to reflect it being answered. If Thorzains build dies to marine/hellion elevators as you say (I've honestly not lost to them in my memory but not faced them often either), is there any safe 1rax no gas expand that you recommend, or should I always go with some gas expand (reaper, hellion, marine/hellion, banshee, cloak banshee)?
Also, what are your rally points like? TvT - I rally to a staging point near/outside my natural normally TvZ - ^ same TvP - I set my rallypoints as far forward as I think I'll be fighting because otherwise even if I win an engagement. e.g. when I go out around ~9 minutes I normally rally outside the protoss natural, and late game I either rally to a a staging ground near my 3rd/4th or forward again.
I'm a diamond league Terran, I've switched from Protoss this last month and just love Terran play style due to its non standard build orders etc. I almost always 1 rax fe into 3 rax and play pure bio vs zerg. My typical losses involve Zerg going pure ling or heavy ling investor in the mid late game into ultra. What should I do when they have about 100+ lings? Take fast third and upgrade up + drop? I've heard of going mmm with hellion is good vs this but honestly my 2 base timings just get demolished by mass ling and then they either double expand or go to hive tech and beat me late game. Thoughts?
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik).
If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something):
- after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on)
then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map.
like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production.
hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo
Shortly after Factory.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?)
Right after Starport if you play standard. 3 add-ons pressure before Factory also exists, you go for a Stim/CS timing with MM.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down.
It's viable but its efficiency depends to some extent on maps, spawns (distance, do you have to show your Marines or can you bypass Tower sight, width of the ramp, etc.) and of course your opponent's build. Your goal is to force warp-ins rounds the Protoss player would have perhaps skipped otherwise to tech faster. Try to kill Sentries so he has to waste gas to remake them. 4 rax follow-up is also good if you scouted 2 gas and are unsure about what the Protoss is doing.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient.
This should only be a problem for your third since your fourth and next bases should be PF. Try to deny Pylons on your side of the map.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively. Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always?
Turret rings + Sensor Towers by lategame. A small squad of speed Reapers can clear Zealots/DTs warp-ins if you have the time to get it (most likely in split or near split map scenarii).
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game.
3 Reactors is fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too.
The problem is more about confirming Blink Stalkers all-ins since others 2 gas one-base all-ins require different answers. 4 rax (3 lab + one naked) should easily fend off Blink Stalkers all-in, but then again you likely won't know yet if that's this one for sure.
Aim at 26-28 SCVs with 1-1-1, 22 is not enough.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel.
It's good. Be sure to get a second rax before teching or you will auto-lose to any Gateway pressure while teching Banshees. Upgrades are not really delayed since you can afford dual EB while building rax #3 4 5. Get a Raven to deny Observers, that way the Protoss player will be more careful since he won't be sure for a while if you transition to macro or go 2-bases all-in.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy.
Factory as soon as you have 100 gas if you go for Reactor Hellion after expand(s). I'd say a good follow-up is double expand then Reactor Hellion + bio or 2 fact (one Lab one Reactor) BFH with Marines (with or without CS depending if you plan to go mech or Marine/Tanks or even Tank-free biomech) to force Roaches or Banes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand).
Not worth it with 1 rax FE, you will simply damage yourself more than him.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas?
Your choice. 3 CCs before gas will not defend some Baneling busts or early Roaches pushes.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build?
As you wish, but to be honest 2-bases pressure builds into third were quite weakened by Queen range 5.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so.
Early Starports are used for Banshees, if you don't want to use them you can delay Starports a bit but you should have at least 6 Medivacs for your maxed push.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Dies to Marine/Hellion elevators, some vulnerabilities to 1-1-1 but otherwise fine.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo.
This or BFH expand can be quite nice mech openings.
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well.
Pure Marines/Tanks does not work well against mech, you have to get Marauders too. Pure bio is another option. Switches to Vikings/Banshees once you're on 3 bases are possible too; you build mass Vikings to overwhelm is Viking count so your Banshees have free reign.
Thanks a ton! I'll edit my question to reflect it being answered. If Thorzains build dies to marine/hellion elevators as you say (I've honestly not lost to them in my memory but not faced them often either), is there any safe 1rax no gas expand that you recommend, or should I always go with some gas expand (reaper, hellion, marine/hellion, banshee, cloak banshee)?
Also, what are your rally points like? TvT - I rally to a staging point near/outside my natural normally TvZ - ^ same TvP - I set my rallypoints as far forward as I think I'll be fighting because otherwise even if I win an engagement. e.g. when I go out around ~9 minutes I normally rally outside the protoss natural, and late game I either rally to a a staging ground near my 3rd/4th or forward again.
edit: spoiler tags are good.
Yeah I forgot to mention actually that the hardest build I come across when doing thorzains TvT is the marine helion drop. Very hard to deal with, basically you have to know it's coming (6.30 scan should give you enough info, plus from your first scv scout will see 1 gas, anytime i see 1 gas ill put a bunker down on natural ramp at some point). So you leave 2-3 marines in your bunker then keep the rest and have your rax rallied to them and just keep moving and looking around the edge of your main expecting the drop, if you are in a good position to engage as soon as he drops then you can do ok, but it is very hard. if he unloads completely in your base before you get to him you will have to pull scvs and you will lose some (which isn't game over, as you did get your CC up a lot quicker).
banshee builds are a lot easier to deal with using a few well placed turrets and your combat shield marines. quick siege tank pushes can be tricky, but there was a youtube vid of some guy showing a really good way of defending from 1 rax expo. I can't find the vid any more but i wrote it all out on this post here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=350883#14
On August 19 2012 17:46 Sianos wrote: I havesome questions regarding TvP and TvZ:
TvP:
In general is it better to have the 5 Rax before 3rd CC or the 3rd CC after 3 Rax? As i understand the difference is that you have a bigger army and a faster production when you do the 5 Rax first to pressure Protoss or force trades, while with the 3 Rax CC you´ll have a better economy but slower production, which means you have to play more defencely.
When do you add your second Starport? I thought as soon as i scout collossus, but i remember someone said that you just need the 2nd Starport when your opponent goes 2 Robo Collossus. I also don´t see pro players go for that 2nd Starport that fast aggainst Collossus.
TvZ:
Is there a way to go straight up into Marine-Tank-Medivac timing pushes instead of Hellion-Banshee after fax expanding? I really don´t like the big micro part in the earlygame, while i building up my base, but i don´t want to be only defensive until midgame. I´m currently experiementing with Combat Shield timings aggainst Zerg´s 3rd base. I really like to play TvZ, because i understand the matchup quite well, but i´m currently lost because i can´t find or create on opening that´s suits my style.
@TvP: 'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed.
Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued.
@TvZ: Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings. On larger maps, the one he used against Nestea in the TAC grand finals works. On more normal maps, look at his TAC game vs AnnyeongPrime on Antiga.
Alternatively, you can do Reality's build which he used against Yugioh in the WCS qualifiers on Ohana (14 cc -> 2 rax -> cloak banshee with constant marine production -> cc).
On August 19 2012 18:33 ShaneFeit wrote: How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars?
Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.)
Can't really put it in words...it really has a lot to do with feel and knowing the practical range of your ghosts/placement in the army/timing. Basically snipe has longer range but feedback is instant cast, so if they both walk in range then try to kill, templar wins, but if Terran scans ahead and does it from range, he wins. Alternatively, you can lead with emp and use the outer radius of it to hit them, though that isn't as good as it used to be.
On August 19 2012 18:55 LiLSighKoh wrote: I feel way to scared when playing against 2 rax gas (PvT) am I overreacting to choose to go 3 gate expo or can is it still plausible to do a 1 gate FE? If so, what would my unit comp be in order to stop some of that early aggression?
You should never 3 gate expand. Never was any good, is atrocious now. You can 1 gate expo on every map except possible close spawn Taldarim if you don't scout them in time. If you want to hard counter the 2 rax RT you can go 1 gate robo gate nexus. Immortals crush it so badly. Honestly 2 rax is a very weak build unless the opponent has no idea it's coming and chronos only probes or something. Bling beat Polt twice with it in the group stage of the Assembly where Polt beat Stephano in the finals.
On August 20 2012 11:46 Natespank wrote: Hi Ver,
I play platinum terran using the Filter-style macro build. My early game is very weak and I'd like to practice using early game all ins to work on my unit control and unit knowledge.
So: what are the best all ins to end the game early as terran against T, Z or P? I almost never Terran succeed at one in tournaments so I'm not sure where to look.
Thanks!
I have no idea what a filter macro build is. imo the best allins:
TvZ: Proxy 11/11. Nothing else is any good. MaruPrime did this in multiple TLopen games. TvT: Cloak banshee into marine/tank/banshee allin. See MVP vs Polt on Dual Sight from GSTL I believe. TvP: Proxy hellion drop. See Marineking vs Parting on Antiga, GSL groups.
What would be the "best" composition in TvP terran perspective ? I have so much trouble when the charg/archon/storm/colo all come into play ;( i feel that even if i have a few viking per colossus, handful of marauder, medivacs and like 5-8 ghost + of course marines , i get rolled over from storm / chargelots even if i get rid of the colossus ;/
You didnt want replays posted in this thread but is it really just the micro that is messing me up cause i feel i have the right composition afterall.. How should i effectively use ghosts cause they really are my weakest link
tvz: you think that the best way to fight zerg is to harass them with something like (hellion-banshee) take a fast third and make a big fight at the 4th of the zerg.¨
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 4th of the zerg to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage))
tvp: on a map where the third is hard, make 5 rax before third and pressure the third of the toss.
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 3th of the protoss to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage)
Ty all for this thread. I am mid-diamond level terran and I have a lot of trouble with mid-late game TvZ. I typically do fine upto to the 12-13 mins mark. I always go marine tank and have a pretty decent early to mid-late game. I am able to scout for all-ins or greedy play and react accordingly and quite often enter mid-late game either even or with a lead. The problem comes around the time when zerg starts getting a whole bunch of infestors and a fourth.
Basically at this point I opt for one of the following -
1) Put down lots of raxes and start pushing and dropping the zerg while taking a fourth. Usually a good idea on maps like antiga/ohana or when I have a lead and I know my push will do damage.
How I fail: Due to creep spread and infestors, I have to push slowly with my marine+tank and often the zerg has enough time to tech to ultras. At this point I am in a huge dilemma, if I keep pushing slowly, evetually the zerg overwhelms with a lot of units or counter attacks undefended bases with ultra ling. Against good zergs that split units for dealing with drops, it is also near impossible to retreat as they will scout and rush your retreating army with ultra ling. Basically, I end up losing my army and being denied a fourth base and then eventually get worn down by a remaxing zerg army with Blord tech switch.
2) If I don't push then I put down a fourth, make it a planetary and turtle to viking+HSM raven. I try to take a 5th but usually that is quite difficult against hive tech zerg with bank. In this case, I have trouble with ultra ling infestor. On large maps, counter-attacks are a danger. During the raven+HSM transition I try to drop to contain the zerg but sometimes the zerg simply attacks with maxed out ultra ling infestor. In this attack, (i) I either lose my army+4th and thus lose the game or (ii) I lose my 4th but have most of my army (the best case scenario, I pressure or get a nice window to get raven tech while taking 4th again) or (iii) I trade most of my army for most of zerg's. The (iii) case is the most likely one and in this case, I just die to the remax since I cannot produce fast enough and the raven+viking tech doesn't do anything.
So basically, my question to the pro (or any high masters) terrans is, what is your game plan in mid-late game TvZ? When zerg has a decent infestor count and turtling while going upto 4 and more bases, what do you do? Do you scout for anything specific, have any tech timings etc. Any help would be much appreciated. How do you deal with the above scenarios or is it the case that my mechanics are bad and the above scenarios should never happen?
In TvP, how many different hot keys do you use when microing marines, mauraders, medivacs, vikings and ghosts? How do you have them setup? Should I be using more than 3 seperate control groups for this specific combination of units? Against A protoss opponent that is going high templar off 2 base, what is a standard time for me to expect storm to finish?
Lastly, do you recommend waiting on rax add-ons until I scout tech path of toss player? (for initial 3 rax off of 1RaxFE) I am trying to figure out whether going double gas and double techlab is a good idea to get stim and combat shields (+ earlier factory, and upgrades) simultaneously for a 9:45 push with +1, or whether this is a bad thing to do when not sure of toss tech path. Also, what is the best time to hit a toss going for double forge upgrades and colossi off 2 base? Or, should I just expand instead of attacking?
Hey, i'm a masters Terran and i'm having a lot of trouble in TvP, aside from cheese and all-ins that i'm learning to stop i would like advice on the late game engagement. I've heard a lot of general advice on how to engage but i'd like to have somebody point out what it is that i'm doing wrong as opposed to how i should be engaging.
On August 19 2012 19:09 Bwall wrote: What do you look for when you scv-scout in TvZ(let's say it's a 2-player map, so we know where he spawned)? I can't really understand the gas timings, because sometimes people just go for a fast lingspeed to be safe, and with the same gas-timing it might be a 5-7 roach rush. The scout doesn't always survive long enough to see if he mines >100 gas, and the zerg could also pull off drones from gas for a few seconds to trick me. Zergs always open 15 hatch, and I don't go cc first so 3rd hatch before pool is out of the question.
You can really never know for sure if they are going speedling allin, speedling expo, ling/bane allin, roach timing, roach/ling allin, or roach/bane/ling. All you can really do note what is possible from the gas timing. i,e, if they get gas around when pool finishes, it will be something 7 mins +, while if they go gas pool, you have to account for a 1 or 0 queen 550 baneling bust or 630 40 ling runby. Another possibility, map dependent, is leave an scv in front of their ramp so you can have advance warning if units stream out.
Basically there is some degree of luck here as you can't be prepared against everything and bunker placements are not universal.
On August 19 2012 20:29 Enemyy wrote: Hi 1,1k master here,
first: Hats off! Great thing you do here
1) About TvP Lategame Engagements:
I know how that goes in theory but often screw up positioning in practice. What is the best and simple way generally speaking to make protoss engage in an unfavorable way? Especially on maps like cloud kingdom i find it nearly impossible to drop and also to split the protoss attention very much cause he can easily cover both bases and get the tech of their choice + max out. I feel like as Terran it's really difiicult to do sth about that on maps like cloud. What's your point on that?
2) How do you get an Edge vs Protoss if your well known 10 Minute timing completly fails?
Most Protoss just deflect it with relative ease and i am not able to drop in the main / natural due to well spread stalkers and do not really have a chance to attack the front due to sentrys. So where do i get an edge then? He will get to collosi eventually and force me back. I think the question from Sianos comes here into play also, is 5rax before cc or cc before 5rax better? What do you think about thorzains way of getting all of them together around 9:30 and relying on 2 rax till then with a fast medivac timing (e.g. recent day9 daily and alot of his recent games as reference).
3) Some Advice and suggestions on my Bio Build and the guide in general.
See this as a rather personal request than a general question but as you also mentioned bio play in tvz i would really appreciate that you, as someone with pro gaming experience, may take a look at my bio guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344554 And especially the build i have there. Is there something you would change and if what and to which extend? I'd really appreciate some improvements if you could find some weak points.
Best Regards and again thanks alot!
E: 4) Regarding TvT - Which opening would you recommend on master level that can put on some pressure but also get a relativly quick expand?
I am very much so a more agressive player and also utilized a 2rax reaper opening not to long ago which is not really viable if countered correctly, so i am looking for some alternatives. The downside i often see is that most 1-1-1 builds etc. get really late expansions which require them to do alot of dmg. Is there some kind middle of the road where you get a relativly fast expand which also enables you to pressure hard afterwards?
5) Do you see "revolutionary" potential in anything across all terran matchups? By that i mean units/builds that are not really popular or explored (Even if i do not play it skyterran in TvZ comes to mind) which could wildley change the matchup?
Thanks alot
1) Later on in the game drops become virtually irrelevant because cannon + obs + templar + warpin handles them way too easily. Cloud Kingdom is one of the worst drop maps regardless and you shouldn't rely on it there. Practicing engagements in TvP is really hard because it requires you to simply be active with your army but have a good eye for knowing when the Protoss army is in bad formation (i,e colossus not able to all fire at once, scrunched up in choke, you have wide arc, stalkers in the front blocking zealot/archon, templar clumped up etc) and instantly seizing it. The best way to learn it would just to watch a large number of top Kor Terrans from their pov's and rewatching the battles and sequences leading up to them over and over.
2) Your 2 medivac poke shouldn't actually fail, it should just be repulsed without much loss on either side. You cannot afford to commit too heavily with it. When it does get repulsed freely, you shouldn't worry or think you are behind, it is simply natural. You can continue threatening drops, getting upgrades, and taking your own third. Ultimately, the Protoss has to mess up for you to really gain an advantage, but you can also mess with htem by using empty medivacs to pull their units out of position. The decision between 3 and 5 rax really is more dependent on what kind of player you are and how confident you are if the game drags on. 5 rax obviously has much more offensive potential and can punish greed a lot easier, but feels weaker if the Protoss knows what they are doing and the map affords easy thirds.
Fast medivac can be a good idea, especially on maps or vs players you are afraid of 2 base colo allins (i,e Cloud Kingdom or Shakuras). It is slightly weaker to 5 or 6 gate because your stim is much later and you have to be careful with your units or be overrun easily, but it is an intriguing way to mess with the Protoss.
3) To be blunt, pure bio TvZ is bad and only works if you massively outplay your opponent and they don't know how to play against it. Taeja did it for awhile and won just because he was that much better, but if you notice now he never skips tanks anymore. It's fine to delay your tanks to achieve some kind of initiative, but dedicated pure bio itself just does not work in general and gets absolutely slaughtered by dedicated muta/ling/bane.
4) gas first banshee expo. You can do TheSTC's version of this which gets 3 hellions then command center. He then adds 2 barracks and double reactors while researching stim, then another reactor for the port, aiming for a 2 medivac timing. When his banshee goes into the main he runs 3 hellions into the natural. It will work at all levels but at the very highest level if you know how to play against it and pull your scvs into the main, he ends up behind. Regardless, it's a solid pressure build to learn that isn't allin on maps where you can do banshee damage. He used this build against me at MLG Orlando on Taldarim (WR4) or against Drewbie in whichever Arena Drewbie qualified for on Daybreak I believe (also in an IPL online qualifier).
5) Not much to be honest. There might be some potential with mech in TvP but it's unlikely it will actually be better than bio. The more likely option is extra orbital builds like we are seeing Taeja do in TvZ. The best improvement I can see is figuring out a sign that lets the Terran know he won't be allined, then building multiple orbitals to gain an econ lead. Otherwise there isn't much possible improvement until a new patch.
On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
Yes. Marine heavy has been the standard for a long time now. Marauders are better in drops and necessary against colossus and you always want a few for the slow/tanking but marines are better in every other way. The only time you should ever be marauder heavy is against stalker/colossus, but almost nobody goes that because it is gimmicky. Marines do more damage, work with medivacs far better, and are smaller so they do more damage per surface area which is critical against non-aoe protoss armies.
On August 19 2012 21:05 No0n wrote: How do we apply what we learned from sAviOr's play in your FE God of the Battlefield to our Terran play in all Matchups? How do you think we are able to fix the weaknesses in Mech play in TvP with what we currently have? If you could answers it would mean a lot to me. Thanks man
This is something I've given a lot of thought as well. It's tough because SC2 is a lot more shallow of a game strategically, Terran requires far more micro and attention than the other races, and Terran does not have that same tactical depth as Zerg either. I think the main two points that can exploited are information and movement. MMA does this the best of anyone, getting his opponents to look this way or that while attacking any weakened area. though in his GSL series vs Leenock Jjakji also did a great job splitting up his army to handle backstabs while threatening the front, then linking up his forces before Leenock was any wiser.
The other possibility against Terran and Protoss is dividing your army up into multiple groups, forcing your enemy to split up his forces, then pouncing on any errors in disposition or surrounding him if he moves out prematurely. The main problem with this is its really hard to micro a battle on both sides of the opponent and make sure the timing works out. It definitely requires a different shift in mentality and attention, but is something I am working on.
I don't think the weaknesses with mech can really be fixed, just compensated for by doing insane worker damage with hellions and banshees. Banshees seem to be the only potential hope for mech, though there are exorbitant gas costs in getting tank/thor/banshee.
On August 19 2012 13:13 DeKGenetiX wrote: this is great way to help NA terrans seeing as alot of them have been struggling do to the high skill ceiling it takes to play terran(which is frustrates other zergs and toss causing alot of BMs to terrans) thanks soo much for feedback to help the us lower terrans to improve i was also wondering if you have a 1 rax FE into mech BO you can release
Im using a build order app as a place to store my builds i can do them by heart but its always solid to have them to remind you case your just warming up or need to recheck what supply/timing things need to go down and so far i have a 1 rax expand that naturally transitions to MMM it could tech to Marinetank but its more prone to MMM another 1 rax FE that naturally transitions to Marinetanks like other open it can go MMM but this is slighty faster and harder to do so im using one to warm up perfect micro and timings so basically i have a Bio 1 Rax expand Biomech 1 Rax FE and just loooking for a mech variant
as i climb to the higher levels i will learn the CC first variants when i start playing masters or high diamond/scrim partners.
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
You mention a fast armory build going into mech tvz, do you have a fairly recent replay of this, that u wouldnt mind posting/uploading, Im always eager to learn alternate mech openings.
also while im writing this, can you explain why the 1 rax expo into 2 factory (1 tech lab - 1 reactor) seems to have faded out of popularity) , is it the increasingly focus on econ openings? or something in the metagame that changed?
Sadly I do not, but basically the build order is the same except you get your armory right after the starport, delaying your cloak and 3rd cc slightly, which is not much loss.
I'm assuming you are talking about TvZ. That build was very strong before the blue flame nerf because you could do so much drone damage but not as much anymore. Nowadays it's even worse because you can't stop the overlord from scouting it so the Zerg just makes roaches and ends up way ahead. Keen floundered with it utterly vs Jonnyrecco in tsl on game 7 even though Jonny didn't scout it, though to be fair Keen's build was bad as he didn't make a starport followup.
On August 19 2012 22:22 Chaggi wrote: Will you write another thing like "God of the Battlefield"? and articles like that?
What's your favorite build in TvT and why?
Part 2 is done, just has been awaiting graphics for half a year now -_- Will be writing a lot more in the upcoming months.
My favorite build is either rax cc or 14cc into 3 rax tech because it's the one opening you can practice and come out even or ahead against everything else, except on Shakuras or Taldarim. The other openings have too many blind build order counters that you just lose helplessly against.
On August 19 2012 23:00 Seinken wrote: What is your opinion on blind building a bunker at protoss nat on 16 supply with a 1rax mara FE?
How about the qxc bunker? do you have any experience with followups the zerg can do regarding it?
I've been experimenting quite a bit with both of these builds and they seem to throw the games wildly in my favor as there is very very little guessing (i know when they expanded, if they have probes out, zerg is only on 2 base, only made x queens, no creep spread etc) and I think they might be incorporated more into the metagame.
You played against my protoss friend at MLG, nice to see a thread like this ^^
If you are doing the proxy marauder flash and taeja do, then yes building the bunker mandatory. If you are just doing a normal marauder opening, you should consider changing your build because it doesn't work anymore against solid players. It might get you free wins against people who don't know how to react but once you rise up people will know how to play against it (just chronoing the gateway a couple times) and you'll have more build order losses (i,e void allin, see forgg vs MC on metro from a gsl code s group stage) or simply entering the midgame behind for no justifiable reason.
qxc bunker is not good sadly; it only works if the Zerg has never seen it before and/or is dumb and won't know how to react. They just spread creep around it and then pull 4 queens and kill it. Also if they make 6-8 lings and you try it you just lose all your marines while actually is really crippling because it makes you very vulnerable to an allin.
Hi Ver, I've been reading some of the questions and answers that you give and they have upped my game. Although they do help me in my game, they do not answer the answers I'm looking for that I have problems with. I'm currently in gold league. 1. In almost every matchup, I will do a 1 rax fast expand, sometimes against zerg if it's tal darim altar or entombed valley, I might do a command center first. But when I scout something like zerg, protoss, or terran going double gas on one base and goes to all in, I don't know the proper counter. I know that there is an all in coming, but I don't know what units are going to come, how many there are going to be, and what units I should make to counter it, how many bunkers, should I lift my second base, halt scv production, etc etc. What is a correct counter to this? 2. I'm having hard times with TvP and TvZ, TvT I'm doing much better but the mistakes I make are much easily to correct and have to do with mechanics. I want to do bio TvZ, I can micro well against banelings and infestors, but I don't know how to get a good amount early game, or build up supply to at least defend against zerg, but the thread on it here with the build isn't working for me and I can't get enough units to defend all ins and do the timing correctly. I'm getting scvs and building units on time and constantly, but I can't seem to defend when an all ins coming. Is there a different build order that can go bio TvZ or a FE transition that can do it? 3. (this is TvP) I know how to get the units in TvP, I can defend early game pushes, all ins, and win in the midgame, but the lategame and the units that protoss comes out with are something can I win against too, or survive, but I can't get the engagement right, even if the area we are fighting is good, or even if I have the better units. I always get mmmvg for the lategame, but I can't seem to get the emps, and I barely get nukes, but if I do it won't work either. Usually the Templars storm before I can get the ghosts to emp, or the emps don't go and I lose the battle. I know the first thing to do is stim, or if there's no observer to cloak ghosts and emp, then stim, but if he has observers, what should I do? I stim the mmm, a move the vikings, and try to use ghosts to emp, but it seems like he always gets the first storm, and I die first, or something happens in the engagement when I emp, I still lose. 4. What is the best way to increase map awareness? I've been laddering today and I played a lot of TvTs, and I still won over 50% of them, but there are a lot of drops that I don't see even though I have a sensor tower, or I only see it after he drops and is attacking.
Thanks, this thread is very useful to me and I've been moving up and am now in high gold with the answers that you give to other people. I wish more people would start doing things like this!
Hey this is a great topic! I think I've hit you on ladder once and got wrecked, but anyway... Tips for holding Blink/Obs all-ins, (particularly common on Antiga or Shakuras) with standard 1 Rax FE or something similar? I always lose to it even when I know it's coming except the games where I'm lucky enough to snipe the Obs, but that's a luxury I think. Stalling for Stim can be really tough without taking a ton of damage. T__T
You mentioned the 1 rax cc into hellion banshee build for mech and i was wondering what you think of this open when it is used to transition into a more bio mech focused play vs the straight up mech play? Also i was curious if you think that if you go for a more mineral heavy play such as bio with this build if its a good idea to go 1 rax => cc => reactor factory => in base orbital => and than cloak banshee or does this delay banshees to long to be worthwhile? I have been playing around with this kind of opening and im not sure if its a good or bad idea vs the normal hellion banshee than third. thanks -washikie masters terran Na server (p.s when asking my question about the fast 3rd orbital im not concerned with the raoch all in i have faced this with that build and survived due to scouting and forgoing the third for faster banshees if i can sniff it out.)
Awesome thread Ver, some really good bits in there.
In TvZ, how do you feel about Mass Hellion openings? I'm currently doing MvPs build where he gets a second Reactor Factory after doing a Reaction Hellion FE, producing 4 hellions for a while. One barracks is added a little later and both rax get Tech Labs and can provide an instant switch to double tank, 4x marine production although upgrades are late. (I usually switch to tanks around 8:00 - 8:30 unless I scout something like Roach pressure) I do like Mass Hellion openings but I was wondering if you had seen any other Mass Hellion builds and what kind of success players were having with them?
For TvP, I currently do Day9's Mech TvP build where you open with a 1-1-1 cloakshee expand and then get Thor/Raven/Marine and later add Tanks. Do you know any other Mech TvP builds that saw some success as I saw Goody try heavy tank play in IEM but it failed horribly so I'm guessing mass Tank early on isn't very strong against a good Protoss?
Recently ive been seeing a number of terrans go for a marine tank push TvP. I was wondering what the pro's and cons of doing this. Im just trying to see the benefits of going this strategy over a standard bioball
Ive been working on a tvz build where I get cc first into 3OC double ups and siege tanks. I get the cc first because I try to bait out a fast double expo before spawning pool by the zerg which usually works. If the zerg is greedy and does that, I get a third oc and double engi bays before siege. basically I can either push at 13/16 minutes with 2/2 or 3/3 and I will have a big siege tank count of about 7-8 when I do push. If you want some replays ill upload them but what do you think otherwise?
On August 21 2012 00:30 teamamerica wrote: Thanks a ton! I'll edit my question to reflect it being answered. If Thorzains build dies to marine/hellion elevators as you say (I've honestly not lost to them in my memory but not faced them often either), is there any safe 1rax no gas expand that you recommend, or should I always go with some gas expand (reaper, hellion, marine/hellion, banshee, cloak banshee)?
Also, what are your rally points like? TvT - I rally to a staging point near/outside my natural normally TvZ - ^ same TvP - I set my rallypoints as far forward as I think I'll be fighting because otherwise even if I win an engagement. e.g. when I go out around ~9 minutes I normally rally outside the protoss natural, and late game I either rally to a a staging ground near my 3rd/4th or forward again.
edit: spoiler tags are good.
Thorzain's build is basically a greedier version of the standard 1 rax FE → 3 rax, so the latter is a little safer. The safest thing would be 1 rax FE → dual gas → 1-1-1 (or even 2-1-1) which should be able to deal with most one-base agression (except some proxies maybe) with proper scouting.
Same thing as you with rally points, sometimes I rally near the battlefield if I'm absolutely confident I'm winning.
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On August 21 2012 04:24 ViceRoyce wrote: How to deal with colossus phoenix composition?
Mass Vikings out of 2 Reactors Starports.
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On August 21 2012 04:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: SO if I understand
tvz: you think that the best way to fight zerg is to harass them with something like (hellion-banshee) take a fast third and make a big fight at the 4th of the zerg.¨
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 4th of the zerg to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage))
tvp: on a map where the third is hard, make 5 rax before third and pressure the third of the toss.
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 3th of the protoss to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage)
In TvZ your near-max push should aim at killing the fourth. Then in lategame it's a matter of deyning fourth and fifth bases to starve the Zerg.
In TvP your goal should be to deny the Protoss' third for the longest time you can so he has later access to his precious fifth and sixth geysers. Delaying the Protoss' third while having your own third running gives you a nice economic advantage since the Protoss' income is stuck to ~1600 minerals and 456 gas per minut on 2 bases while you can quickly go beyond 2k minerals per minut with your third running.
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On August 21 2012 17:53 Thezzy wrote: Awesome thread Ver, some really good bits in there.
In TvZ, how do you feel about Mass Hellion openings? I'm currently doing MvPs build where he gets a second Reactor Factory after doing a Reaction Hellion FE, producing 4 hellions for a while. One barracks is added a little later and both rax get Tech Labs and can provide an instant switch to double tank, 4x marine production although upgrades are late. (I usually switch to tanks around 8:00 - 8:30 unless I scout something like Roach pressure) I do like Mass Hellion openings but I was wondering if you had seen any other Mass Hellion builds and what kind of success players were having with them?
Double Reactor Hellion is cheesy and all-inish, if it gets scouted you will get foiled hard and if not it can still be defended with proper building placement from the Zerg (fortunately enough many Zergs are terrible at this, or misplace their Queens, etc.). Even if you get decent drone kills you're not sure to be that ahead since your tech/third is delayed. Current Hellions/Banshees builds with triple OCs can give you the same results but with better economy to fall back on if you don't manage to kill many drones.
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On August 22 2012 00:20 StateofReverie wrote: Ive been working on a tvz build where I get cc first into 3OC double ups and siege tanks. I get the cc first because I try to bait out a fast double expo before spawning pool by the zerg which usually works. If the zerg is greedy and does that, I get a third oc and double engi bays before siege. basically I can either push at 13/16 minutes with 2/2 or 3/3 and I will have a big siege tank count of about 7-8 when I do push. If you want some replays ill upload them but what do you think otherwise?
edit: replay drop.sc/241664
I tried this too but ultimately stopped doing this, it's way too passive and the Zerg can easily outgreed you if he scouts your build. Even if it builds a strong max push, creep will be everywhere so you will not be able to maneuver your Tanks as quickly as you would want, so he will have his tier3 ready be the time you reach his fourth and then you will be in trouble.
i sort of bend the rules here. Even though I have a large timing window to attack, I also send a drop to take out any outlying expansions and I also use another drop a couple minutes before I push to exterminate some zerg creep. You can say I have 2 goals when I push out. It lets me take a fourth base and to pressure him. the only way he has tier 3 out if he gets like a 13 min hive which I always scan for to see mutas, roaches, or tech.
In reality on larger maps it is too hard to push back creep enough to kill his fourth base so I stay off creep otherwise I lose battles on creep. zerg 5th bases are always easier to shut down because it extends them pretty far so drops then become a lot stronger
I posted this in the Protoss Help Me Thread but would like some insight from the Terrans POV.
In late game PvT, I'm having issues dealing with the Mass Ghost/Viking+MMM.
I'm not sure what the ideal comp is and how to deal with the engagement part.
I usually go 4 colossus/4hts/8 stalkers and the rest is chargelot/archon and 1 sentry for GS. That's the comp I usually go for when dealing with this army. I have 4 hts back at my base generating energy as well.
The engagement part is a big issue. I've tried multiple ways and still not successful with any of them. One way is where I position my blink stalkers where I see the vikings coming from and attack with colo/chargelot/archon. Wait for the emps and then send my 4hts behind my army to storm the units. But I end up losing my entire army when my storm connects so I don't have zealots dealing the extra damage as well with the storm. Another way is sending my hts in the front to try to feedback any forward ghosts or storm bio units but it's pretty unsuccessful against good Terrans.
I'm wondering if I should just incorporate some phoenixes (4 or 5) with upgraded range to deal with vikings a bit more now. I feel like it heavily depends more on the colo staying alive than my HTs. Yes the upgrade and investment is pretty steep but I get to the point where economy isn't really the issue. Or is there a better way of dealing with this comp?
On August 22 2012 02:15 .kv wrote: I posted this in the Protoss Help Me Thread but would like some insight from the Terrans POV.
In late game PvT, I'm having issues dealing with the Mass Ghost/Viking+MMM.
I'm not sure what the ideal comp is and how to deal with the engagement part.
I usually go 4 colossus/4hts/8 stalkers and the rest is chargelot/archon and 1 sentry for GS. That's the comp I usually go for when dealing with this army. I have 4 hts back at my base generating energy as well.
The engagement part is a big issue. I've tried multiple ways and still not successful with any of them. One way is where I position my blink stalkers where I see the vikings coming from and attack with colo/chargelot/archon. Wait for the emps and then send my 4hts behind my army to storm the units. But I end up losing my entire army when my storm connects so I don't have zealots dealing the extra damage as well with the storm. Another way is sending my hts in the front to try to feedback any forward ghosts or storm bio units but it's pretty unsuccessful against good Terrans.
I'm wondering if I should just incorporate some phoenixes (4 or 5) with upgraded range to deal with vikings a bit more now. I feel like it heavily depends more on the colo staying alive than my HTs. Yes the upgrade and investment is pretty steep but I get to the point where economy isn't really the issue. Or is there a better way of dealing with this comp?
You can always just make like 2 colossi, and trick the terran so they overmake vikings. Also you can try putting your temps in a speed prism, to avoid EMP, but be careful of vikings ofcourse!
Hey, Ver. Sorry to hear about the team. I hope you can find a great one soon where you feel home! Thanks for giving your time to help others in the game!
I'd have a couple of questions of my own, generally short ones. Some are specific, some not really. Let me start from the more specific ones:
1. One of my favourite builds ever is this, i.e. Thorzain TvT, a react first three-rax without greedy expanding. What I like about it is that it's simply the best optimised threerax for this type of thing. Basically the three-rax that allows you to outmarine (+ shield, 2 tanks, 2 vacs around 11:00) everybody else without making you tankless (although it takes time to practice defence against early tank pushes). My question is, does this build seem to be viable in TvZ or TvP? (But especially TvP given the reliance on marines and the presence of about 2 tanks for sieging/baiting needs.)
2. I've been intrigued by this, i.e. LastShadow's six rax TvP. It just feels like something I could do, plus, focusing just on rax/rines like that for a while could perhaps improve my marine control and maybe some macro concepts. Do you think this is a viable general build for ladder TvP or is it more of a unique oddity from LastShadow? Could it be used convincingly against other races?
TvZ is about the only match-up where I actually know what I'm doing. I've generally consistently worked on the "right build for me". It's always been based on marines, hellions and thors but with varying transition or addition timings, with or without addon swapping, with or without e-bays/third/PF etc., with or without or with a different type of harass etc. The core idea is having both hellions and thors in a right proportion, without dabbling in marines or any other units if I can help it. Normally starting from three naked facts, bunker if roaches, bunker rush if late pool. About the time I go for the hellion push (which is 6-10 around 7:30-8:00 rather than an early 2-4, and generally aimed to remove lings and hopefully fry some drones too), I get armouries (generally 2, for double upgrades but depends on resources) and addons (reactor too or another naked fact because I want to keep making hellions too) and plant the expo in nat (often actually PF if the Zerg gets a lot of roaches, as I prefer to avoid supply-intensive defences against that). Depending on what happens/what he has, after the push I either defend for a while and expand and max out or pressure him but I generally want to have my 200/200 hellion thor plus SCVs before 20:00, 16:00 if possible, unless it's obvious I can cripple him to a point of no return somewhere between 10:00-12:00 or unless 150/200 to be enough or unless 3/3 hits earlier or something else happens situationally. Generally relying on upgrades, expansions (OC/PF depending on Zerg's level of aggression), hellion/thor proportions and micro/positioning, pulling SCVs to repair (and block ling access to some extent), dropping mules for repairs, rather than taking chances with getting airports, tanks, otherwise mixing the composition. I've used this build so much that I've learnt a lot about handling it and this knowledge helps me immensely, so I'm more comfortable doing this than dabbling with rax and ports (needless to say, I'm really happy when I see corruptors when I don't even have a port ). My question is, is this build liable to get roflstomped at higher levels of play due to all the corner cutting in it and the higher skill of, say, master zergs compared to plat zergs (who can't normally break this even with a hearty bunch of lolfestors/gglords )? Basically, I'm wondering if this is a build that works because of its merits (simple, lean, compact, adaptable, well-practiced) or a build that works right now just because my opponents are "bad" but wouldn't work between two players at master skill. Also, would it be better (as in more efficient without being significantly riskier), in your opinion, to throw in banshees and/or ravens into this build anyway, like most players do, at the cost of giving some of the advantages of this build?
#4 is a bit longer and more personal (and I'll understand if you prefer to skip this one as it doesn't have much to do with strategy for playing, more like strategy for improvement; at the same time, I'll be particularly grateful if you do reply):
4. I'd played almost exclusively single-player campaigns/games vs. AI in many different RTS games for many years before getting online (where I played some Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition in 2004-2005 (maybe 1500 games, I guess I was a name but not a top gosu) and then Warcraft 3 TFT in 2005-2008 (some 3000 games, something of a high dia/low master player in comparison)), it's hard to break certain still surviving habits (after so many years) that are harmful in human vs human. As in, in SP, especially storyline campaigns, you sort of conserve resources, stay on the defensive, watch your base, prepare for scripted attacks and expect storyline to unfold, avoid setting off triggers on the map, don't need to scout so much (or there's no point or it's actually harmful when you uncover something too early), aren't so pressured to keep maxing your production, don't really harass for distraction (only really for damage), you often cheese because you're supposed to, AI is either dumb or cheating (if not actually both) and there's the reload/restart button which means you don't have to play extra safe. As a result, I kinda struggle with being active, scouting consistently, always finding stuff to do (it's not a problem for me to hit 400 apm in battles but it's like 40-60 average and periods of 0), well, basically doing things, claiming the damn map, getting things done. Particularly in SC2, I feel like I'm racing against time, as in build order/production race plus the likely proxy cheese/some other cheese/lucky drop that makes leaving my base in early game an excruciating experience. Massing more games doesn't seem to be an efficient solution: it helps (with stuff like making more workers, which isn't exactly a WC3 player's top area) but not that much, as people with much fewer games/less experience overlap me rather easily, e.g. a guy I taught to play WC3 overlapped me and later actually coached me in turn. The gap between us was huge eventually, he kinda skyrocketed very shortly after reaching my own level: he got sponsored, had a brush with tournaments etc. in a matter of weeks or at least very few months from there. He inherited some of the characteristic flaws of my style but worked most of them out eventually. He then switched to SC2 in or after beta and made mid-master the moment the league was introduced, while I never made it past high gold in SC2 after 400 games before I stopped playing in late January this year. In fact, our 3v3 partner, who was supposedly a total newcomer to RTS, was always only slightly behind me on the solo ladder, I also had a gold buddy who got dia with much fewer games on record than my number (good for him, btw, hope he enters masters soon and waits for me with the victory toast). This is all too familiar to my WC3 experience like losing games I should've won (not only in my judgement) or actually almost had won, losing after or despite a significant lead, losing to visibly less experienced players (happy for them but anyway ), losing games because of getting less sharp due to tiredness etc.This is a bit saddening, as in it feels like something's wrong with me. Some time this autumn, I should finish my Ph.D. procedures and be able to take a month off before I move on to more cramming. Do you think I should mass ladders like 12 hours a day for a full month to refresh my mechanics and force a skill jump? Or play fewer games but stop and analyse every replay? Or play custom games with much higher skilled people and lose game after game until I start winning? Or use the AI/training maps to address specific areas? What do you think would be the best thing to do here?
On August 22 2012 02:15 .kv wrote: I posted this in the Protoss Help Me Thread but would like some insight from the Terrans POV.
In late game PvT, I'm having issues dealing with the Mass Ghost/Viking+MMM.
I'm not sure what the ideal comp is and how to deal with the engagement part.
I usually go 4 colossus/4hts/8 stalkers and the rest is chargelot/archon and 1 sentry for GS. That's the comp I usually go for when dealing with this army. I have 4 hts back at my base generating energy as well.
The engagement part is a big issue. I've tried multiple ways and still not successful with any of them. One way is where I position my blink stalkers where I see the vikings coming from and attack with colo/chargelot/archon. Wait for the emps and then send my 4hts behind my army to storm the units. But I end up losing my entire army when my storm connects so I don't have zealots dealing the extra damage as well with the storm. Another way is sending my hts in the front to try to feedback any forward ghosts or storm bio units but it's pretty unsuccessful against good Terrans.
I'm wondering if I should just incorporate some phoenixes (4 or 5) with upgraded range to deal with vikings a bit more now. I feel like it heavily depends more on the colo staying alive than my HTs. Yes the upgrade and investment is pretty steep but I get to the point where economy isn't really the issue. Or is there a better way of dealing with this comp?
You can always just make like 2 colossi, and trick the terran so they overmake vikings. Also you can try putting your temps in a speed prism, to avoid EMP, but be careful of vikings ofcourse!
As a Terran, I kinda regret every viking that could be a marauder or 2 rines (better DPS and more standing power for my ground army, which is my backbone), so I always make sure I don't overdo the number (because after killing off the colossi, which is their sole goal, they're mostly useless save for semi-decent ground support and some limited harass opportunity if they actually live to see it). And it wouldn't be unexpected for a Toss to get just two and then cut production. If I had a strong suspicion that the Toss were going to have a low number of colossi, I'd probably just spawn more MMM (and maybe with more emphasis on marauders), skipping vikings altogether.
If I'm going mech in TvZ, should I be using vikings or thors to deal with broodlord/corrupter early on? I feel that my vikings always come out too slow to deal with mass corrupter production (maybe I need more starports faster) and thors don't seem to work all that well (although I seem to lose them to other stuff so it might be that).
If you had to tell a player to learn one build order for the tvp + tvz matchups, which ones would you tell them to learn? Preferably something aggressive. (Just starting to play again, was masters level when i quit so my mechanics are generally good.. don't know much for timings anymore though)
Hi, in TvP, I've seen GuMiHo try to get his first 5 marines out of his natural before the opponent's stalker gets to his base so he can go around and snipe stuff while the stalker is caught in the middle of the map or at GuMiHo's natural. How can I do this as well? Does he only do it when he scouts a certain something or is it planned as part of his build? I've tried it a couple of times but I have only been able to dodge the stalker if the protoss was killing my ebay at his natural. I also feel like I can't get 5 marines out, only 4. Could you explain to me how GuMiHo does this and the thinking behind it? Thanks!
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
My question is fairly simple and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been asked yet.
I'm a top diamond Terran that really struggles with TvT. 9/10 times I lost to some form of a 1/1/1 but usually it's the marine tank banshee variation popularized by Puma. I 1 rax FE in TvT and it feels impossible to hold most all-ins. What tips do you have on holding the marine tank banshee all-in (and other allins) with a 1 rax fe? Also, do you think there is a better opening to do in TvT?
On August 20 2012 05:11 U_G_L_Y wrote: In TvP, I feel like I need to be out on the map mid game, but it makes warp prisms very difficult to deal with from 10-15 minutes. Any suggestions?
You do need to be out on the map that is correct. Unfortunately there is not that much you can do against warp prisms other than making a turret/viking to thwart them and using your rallied units to hold anything that drops. It's frustrating and it's a wonder more Protoss don't do it; all you can really do is make things uncomfortable for them. Although it is obvious, it is useful to keep in mind that they can't warp in to defend and attack at the same time, making the warp prism less threatening to a certain degree if you are pressing them hard.
On August 20 2012 06:02 WaKai wrote: HiHi, i play full bio in tvz, but get caught with my pants down with infestor fungals, is there a way to have pre warning? i've tried stim marines but they don't get out far enough for me to have a reliable tell. Is it just scanning ahead all the time? until he attacks?
Whenever you move out of range of a watchtower you should stim 4-8 marine/marauder ahead of the army and keep them stimmed. They are essentially your screen. Infestors can't come near marauders or they get toasted instantly. Once you would push forward onto creep you need to scan ahead, which will double as letting you kill tumors. What it comes down to is if you don't have full vision of an area you need to be watching your army 100% and ideally when you are moving you are automatically pre splitting everything just to be safe.
On August 20 2012 22:21 DocHolliday wrote: If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
Many thanks!
The most important thing vs blink obs allins is that you don't let him snipe your stim. This means you need to put extra care to where your tech labbed rax is placed. I think the ideal way to hold it is lifting into the main, but you should always be able to stop it sitting in the natural anyway. You want to add tech labs asap, as marines are not very useful in holding it, and then start your factory when you can. The key way to play it is that you trade scvs for time whenever he blinks in and push him away. You are basically stalling for stim at first, after which you can really punish him if he blinks too aggressively and has no escape. Then you more or less wait around threatening stims (but not actually doing so) until you get medivacs, after which point the game is won. Alternatively, you can try to hold with a bunker in the main and at the nat and scvs pulled wherever necessary. Rain held ddoro's blink allin on Shakuras from MLG Columbus.
On August 21 2012 17:53 Thezzy wrote: Awesome thread Ver, some really good bits in there.
In TvZ, how do you feel about Mass Hellion openings? I'm currently doing MvPs build where he gets a second Reactor Factory after doing a Reaction Hellion FE, producing 4 hellions for a while. One barracks is added a little later and both rax get Tech Labs and can provide an instant switch to double tank, 4x marine production although upgrades are late. (I usually switch to tanks around 8:00 - 8:30 unless I scout something like Roach pressure) I do like Mass Hellion openings but I was wondering if you had seen any other Mass Hellion builds and what kind of success players were having with them?
For TvP, I currently do Day9's Mech TvP build where you open with a 1-1-1 cloakshee expand and then get Thor/Raven/Marine and later add Tanks. Do you know any other Mech TvP builds that saw some success as I saw Goody try heavy tank play in IEM but it failed horribly so I'm guessing mass Tank early on isn't very strong against a good Protoss?
TvZ mass hellion is perfectly ok. The only thing you should be aware of about massing hellions is couple things. If opponent opens fast mutas, u might not have the marine count to deal with the mutas (Unless u open mech for thors). Your mineral to gas ratio might be imbalanced abit so grabbing more gas geysers is very important in order to transition.
On August 20 2012 22:21 DocHolliday wrote: If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
Many thanks!
The most important thing vs blink obs allins is that you don't let him snipe your stim. This means you need to put extra care to where your tech labbed rax is placed. I think the ideal way to hold it is lifting into the main, but you should always be able to stop it sitting in the natural anyway. You want to add tech labs asap, as marines are not very useful in holding it, and then start your factory when you can. The key way to play it is that you trade scvs for time whenever he blinks in and push him away. You are basically stalling for stim at first, after which you can really punish him if he blinks too aggressively and has no escape. Then you more or less wait around threatening stims (but not actually doing so) until you get medivacs, after which point the game is won. Alternatively, you can try to hold with a bunker in the main and at the nat and scvs pulled wherever necessary. Rain held ddoro's blink allin on Shakuras from MLG Columbus.
Select gets 2 tech labs and rushes conc over stim if he scouts blink fast enough, which can really hurt them if they blink up and walk a bit (you can catch a stalker or two that go in too deep). Sensor tower is also really useful if you managed to hold the first wave (props 2 avilo) which helps you know where to posture your units.
In TvZ, or rather, a question that could perhaps become very generalized for all matchups.|
How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well? Specifically for me, TvZ. How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?
I very often net myself various earlier advantages in a matchup, but due to my bad control when it comes to a large scale engagement, I throw away everything I have earned from earlier.
On August 20 2012 07:30 Ragnarok_1er wrote: Hi, thanks a lot for doing this. Random masters player here, having some trouble with TvP.
I'm using the build from Drewbie's guide ( http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456 ). It gets 4 rax then 2 gas at around 35 supply, and you basically make a ton of marines for a while. Is this build outdated? I feel extremely weak until I have stim, and have lost more than once against protoss players who camp with stalkers in front of my bunker(s), force repairing and lost mining time, and get way ahead while I'm completely contained.
This build was questionable even back then and is definitely outdated. Right now it is pretty much just a coinflip build that is only used to punish greedy Protosses who do insane builds like stalker nexus dt or forge. But if Protoss does any standard build it won't do any damage and you'll end up behind. You also die easier to certain allins (MC vs Ganzi on Entombed, Code groups).
On August 20 2012 08:38 Jockmcplop wrote: Hi i'm a gold terran (EU) and i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable. The basics of it are: gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style.
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
This build is no good vs any race. Blue flame that early is never worth it and your build doesn't do anything. You essentially kill your own econ and don't have any real offensive potential either. Look at what players like Taeja or Ghostking do instead.
On August 20 2012 10:11 cutehotdog wrote: In TvP i currently do Bomber's build and i am having problems vs fast collosus defenses. Whenever i hit the timing of +1 medivacs, i seem to get barely smashed by the protoss who later on just roll over me. Is there any tips as to when to push vs Colossus or how to play out the mid-game?
If you can't break their position you shouldn't actually attack it. Losing your army without sufficient compensation is about the worst thing you can do in this game. See Bomber vs Minigun on Ohana from IEM. Bomber has no early timing so he just waits and breaks him at 200 supply and enough vikings. If they have colossus and are cowering in a choke you either have to drop them or give up attacking. Instead you just expand, upgrade, and start viking production. Once you have enough vikings you can start harassing the colossus if he plays too passively.
Colossus play is very vulnerable to drops in general, but if he 2 base turtles you can't drop, so all you need to do is simply expand, threaten drops, and upgrade as he can't attack you. If he does actually attack then you simply drop him several full medivacs while holding your natural ramp. If he doesn't retreat you target important pylons with your drop while you pull scvs to hold your ramp, if he retreats you press forward with your main force.
On August 20 2012 10:02 BlueBoxSC wrote: I want to switch to Terran. I plan on adopting the Bomber build for TvP and the Thorzain build for TvT.
I can't find a style to emulate for TvZ, but I want to play bio. Suggestions?
The build Ghostking did against Nestea on Cloud Kingdom in the GSL ro8 is probably the most robust and reliable TvZ build. Taeja's mainstay TvZ opening is riskier but still works well (search his TLopen qualifier reps vs Shine).
On August 20 2012 10:38 AfroKen wrote: Hello. First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. I'm currently a gold level Terran and was wondering if you can give me any tips with my build order?
So I've been using a one base timing while I expand behind the attack. I 13 and 19 gas. Factory at first 100 gas. If its Zerg I get sp right after factory , get two banshees and harass while I build up my tank/reen force. Otherwise I delay sp by about a minute and get my tank count up to bout 2-3 (with more rallying additional) and push at around the 8 minute mark off 3 rax and a SP. using the medivac to spot. Only real difference from Terran and toss is I push at the 8 minute mark. But with only 2-3 tanks total. But blue flame to help deal with Terran balls. Or a ghost or two to help deal with immortal or dts. Any thoughts?
Yes, you should never use that build against any race. Unfortunately it is gimmicky and will only beat players who have no idea what you're doing. If say I used this build against a player slightly below my level, I could never win with it. Look through the thread for some other recommended openings.
On August 20 2012 11:40 dynwar7 wrote: Hi Ver
I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also.
But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded?
Do you understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor?
Yes that is the logic behind what everyone does. If you open hellion/banshee and transition into 3 base bio TvZ, you cut at 6 or 8 hellions and 2 or 3 banshees then never make them again, as they have served there purpose and any more will be a waste of money. When you do this it's rather situational to actually harass: you have to prioritize keeping your units alive as they leave the Zerg blinded and give you the initiative for a long time.
On August 20 2012 11:42 scCassius wrote: What do you think of MVP's new mech build that he debuted at IEM?
It's very solid and robust, though it's not MVPs build. Puma used it at MLG Anaheim to great effect as well. It's not nearly so good if the Zerg is experienced against it and handles the harass effectively, as the upgrades are very late. He definitely benefited from playing only foreigner Zergs - except when he lost to Violet. I'm not convinced it will work against top Korean Zergs for long. iirc DRG smashed Puma when he tried it.
The MVP difference is his focus on tanks throughout the game and his consistently well timed harass. The main thing I learned from watching him is that I overmake thors when I go mech, even against broods. MVP has enough tanks to make sure the infestors can't just wreck him mid-battle. He also has great judgment when he can hit a pre-brood timing and when he should turtle and tech to raven/viking.
It seems to me (not understaing the mu very well at all) that terrans tend to get their tanks up at seemingly random times, at least to my eyes...sometimes they go for a huge marine ball early on, other times they decided to tech faster, and i don't really understand why. What triggers someone to start teching up to tanks?
This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff.
I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran):
1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac.
2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible.
What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP?
I have a question about TvT (happy to provide replays if necessary but I don't think it is):
I use a build I stole from Ganzi which is basically a 1 rax FE into 3 rax then double gas. He prioritises upgrades so double eng bays follows very soon thereafter. I struggle A LOT vs early siege tank pushes, especially if they have used banshee harrass (there are cloak and non-cloak variants which affect timings slightly). If they keep the banshees alive it is very hard to meet the incoming force in the middle of the map and force repeated sieges to delay his push. So I'm often faced with a siege up outside my natural... So my question: what is the best way to deal with this kind of push? The two choices seem to me to be:
a) use a bunker and missile turret at the front to try to delay with scv repair as necessary as long as possible. If you can keep his vision of the high ground limited to his scans then you probably have time to get out medivacs (maybe...);
b) pull all scvs, wait for any upgrades that are about to finish and then try to bum-rush him... (this hardly ever works).
I've tried adapting the composition slightly by throwing a few marauders into the mix; I've tried stim before combat shield... but often I still lose. I "think" the idea is to somehow hold him off and then go for a base trade using medivacs if you can hold out long enough but I'd welcome the views of an expert. (And of course if there is a replay of a pro game where this happened I'd love to see it...)
Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push?
Master terran, I use polt's TvP opening which is a standard 1 rax CC double rax double gas, with 1 techlab and no addons on the other 2 barracks until starport is made with a standard push when 2 medievacs are done.
Btw a tip for terrans is to only put 1 marine in ur bunkers if ur afraid of a 2 base pressure/allin, that way it looks like you have alot more units than you have which might scare the protoss into falling back while if you had all ur untis in the bunkers he could've killed you.
Do you remember me? We used to talk on battle net about what events you were doing and I would always tell you I was rooting for you?
*fanboy status*
haha.. Well anyways I really wanted to thank you for doing this thread, its a big help to us terran players out there.
I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank. I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
Hi, I am a former platinum Terran that stopped playing for about 6 months and would like to get back in shape. Was thinking to use the hellion/banshee opening in TvZ, with transition into bio-tank. Could you please recommend me some good replays from which I could learn this build? Thanks in advance!
On August 23 2012 17:32 Teoita wrote: I have a question regarding TvT .
It seems to me (not understaing the mu very well at all) that terrans tend to get their tanks up at seemingly random times, at least to my eyes...sometimes they go for a huge marine ball early on, other times they decided to tech faster, and i don't really understand why. What triggers someone to start teching up to tanks?
It depends on your opening, or more accurately it depends on the interaction between your opening and your opponent's. When opening 1 rax FE → 3 rax you tech Tanks late because you first dump all your gas into bio upgrades then medivacs. When opening 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you tech Tanks straight away if you scout one-base pressure or head for Hellions and/or Banshees first if you plan to mech and your opponent went fast expand too (when playing mech, you try to tech Tanks later so you can have more active units such as Hellions and Banshees pressuring on the map). When opening 1-1-1 against 1 rax FE → 3 rax you usually tech Tanks quickly (e. g. after Marine/Hellion elevator or Banshee) so you can defend while you catch up in bio tech; or you use Tanks agressively for further pressure, etc.
On August 23 2012 23:48 herMan wrote: This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff.
I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran):
1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac.
2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible.
1. No, MMM with Tanks is commonly played too. Whether you play this or pure bio is up to you. 2. I play as usual but try heavier pressure by the time I have my first 2-4 medivacs since he used some resources on inefficient harass (assuming he didn't do much damage, of course). I often get a blind Ghost Academy since Zealots/Archons follow-ups are quite common.
On August 24 2012 00:27 Tenks wrote: What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP?
I do the same, I usually build a Ghost Academy and get Moebius Reactor but build Ghosts later. I remember Polt going 8 rax MMM on 3 bases with very late Ghosts, constantly pressuring with a high Medivac count, dropping, dodging Storms, etc. Ghosts become mandatory when your opponent has too many HTs (or Archons), though.
On August 24 2012 05:23 kollin wrote: Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push?
You should not allow him to expand and tech Colossi freely after a failed 4g. Even if he does not commit much, 5 rax gives you lots of Marines, so pressure back with your Marines squad and you should force him to slow down.
On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote: I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank. I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
The way you do it is OK. If you feel safe to delay Tanks a bit, you can build one or two Reactors for Barracks with your Factory and/or Starport before swapping them for Tanks/Medivacs.
On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote: I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank. I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
The way you do it is OK. If you feel safe to delay Tanks a bit, you can build one or two Reactors for Barracks with your Factory and/or Starport before swapping them for Tanks/Medivacs.
Thanks man, this is definitely going to help me out. As I dont feel like I need tanks as early as I usually get them. :D
On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote: I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik).
If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something):
- after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on)
then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map.
like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production.
hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post.
It's not a problem, though I do want to point out that double ebay is not really viable in most situations, as it delays your tanks too much (assuming you get an armory and 2/2, but if you don't then it's illogical in the first place). If you are 3/1/1 and making 3rd cc with double ebay, they'll just kill you with a dedicated 4 rax/2 fact before you reach 2/2.
On August 21 2012 00:55 phidget wrote: I'm a diamond league Terran, I've switched from Protoss this last month and just love Terran play style due to its non standard build orders etc. I almost always 1 rax fe into 3 rax and play pure bio vs zerg. My typical losses involve Zerg going pure ling or heavy ling investor in the mid late game into ultra. What should I do when they have about 100+ lings? Take fast third and upgrade up + drop? I've heard of going mmm with hellion is good vs this but honestly my 2 base timings just get demolished by mass ling and then they either double expand or go to hive tech and beat me late game. Thoughts?
2 base timings of any sort are very bad against competent Zergs nowadays because they will simply scout it with jetpack overlords, get many drones on 3 base, and hold it with queens + ling/bane/roach. For fighting marine/medivac vs mass ling only, you want to use the terrain properly to reduce ling surface area, which means putting the marines up against a cliff, or behind the mineral line/geysers, etc. For examples of this, look at all of Polt's TvZ's, especially his games vs TLO, from the ASUS winter he won.
I know this isn't a strategy related question but reading through here it seems you do play mech sometimes, so it would be really useful to players just getting into it.
Maybe, after i play a bunch of games in the new patch. I've been playing mostly bio lately as mech is really frustrating and inferior. I played a lot of mech last MLG but MLG has never released the replays
On August 21 2012 00:55 phidget wrote: I'm a diamond league Terran, I've switched from Protoss this last month and just love Terran play style due to its non standard build orders etc. I almost always 1 rax fe into 3 rax and play pure bio vs zerg. My typical losses involve Zerg going pure ling or heavy ling investor in the mid late game into ultra. What should I do when they have about 100+ lings? Take fast third and upgrade up + drop? I've heard of going mmm with hellion is good vs this but honestly my 2 base timings just get demolished by mass ling and then they either double expand or go to hive tech and beat me late game. Thoughts?
Well 2 base timings are rather bad against Zerg in general. They are not unplayable but if the Zerg knows what they are doing (not always the case at pro level) they will flop. Thus I first suggest you change builds. Also pure bio is a very poor option and requires you to vastly outplay your opponent, which naturally makes it an inferior choice.
With marine/medivac on the map against mass ling, you want to put your units in small choke points like against a cliff, or between the geyser and min line, to reduce ling surface area, and pick up when they get a full surround. So long as they don't have banes or fungal they actually have a very difficult time engaging. Polt's ASUS run half a year ago or so featured some really good terrain movement with this kind of situation, particularly his games vs TLO.
On August 21 2012 06:27 jinx1281255 wrote: Ver,
In TvP, how many different hot keys do you use when microing marines, mauraders, medivacs, vikings and ghosts? How do you have them setup? Should I be using more than 3 seperate control groups for this specific combination of units? Against A protoss opponent that is going high templar off 2 base, what is a standard time for me to expect storm to finish?
Lastly, do you recommend waiting on rax add-ons until I scout tech path of toss player? (for initial 3 rax off of 1RaxFE) I am trying to figure out whether going double gas and double techlab is a good idea to get stim and combat shields (+ earlier factory, and upgrades) simultaneously for a 9:45 push with +1, or whether this is a bad thing to do when not sure of toss tech path. Also, what is the best time to hit a toss going for double forge upgrades and colossi off 2 base? Or, should I just expand instead of attacking?
You need 2 hotkeys at a mimum. 1 for marine/marauder/medivac, 1 for ghost, 1 for viking. You can potentially have another for medivacs, and yet another for dividing the bio force into two.
You should always be making ebay/fact before addons unless you do thorzains build which gets 1 reactor earlier. You can do that but it becomes quasi-allin because your +1 is delayed and that's more important to rush than combat shields. If they double forge + colo they are very vulnerable to drops, so really focus on sniping observers, and they also can't attack you for a certain amount of time, so yes, expanding is very good here. You should prioritize your own upgrades (armory started asap with second ebay)
Honestly the storm question is very difficult and something that vexes me a lot. I don't really have an answer for this, as a lot depends on variables you cannot see. But if you see multiple templar and no archons, expect storm.
On August 21 2012 04:08 tjuggx wrote: What would be the "best" composition in TvP terran perspective ? I have so much trouble when the charg/archon/storm/colo all come into play ;( i feel that even if i have a few viking per colossus, handful of marauder, medivacs and like 5-8 ghost + of course marines , i get rolled over from storm / chargelots even if i get rid of the colossus ;/
You didnt want replays posted in this thread but is it really just the micro that is messing me up cause i feel i have the right composition afterall.. How should i effectively use ghosts cause they really are my weakest link
The "standard" composition is marine/some marauders/mass ghost/medivac + vikings depending on their colossus count. You want to slowly mass as many ghosts as possible over time. Usually players will try to keep a couple marauders in front to absorb charge, then tank with ghosts while pulling marines back to kill zealots. Then the ghosts will retreat once they are under colossus shots and the entire line will engage. If you do not have many ghosts then typically you will simply let the vikings shoot, preferably from a cliff, while kiting far away with your bio until the zealots are nearly dead. The ideal way to engage is simply attacking with a wide arc when their units are not in proper formation. For example, Taeja vs Younghwa on Daybreak, where Taeja attacks Younghwa at the 4th and wins easily because 3 colossus cannot shoot due to being cramped in between a pylon and nexus.
If you want to win a 3 base+ fight you must stop them from landing devastating storms. This means first, scanning and killing observers, and usually sending a few ghosts slightly ahead of your army to emp when the Protoss is still moving and clumped. You win the battle automatically if you kill off their observers and cloak your ghosts, because they do a lot of unstoppable dps and you can then emp their entire army.
The ultimate composition is marine/marauder/ghost/medivac + bc/viking if you can somehow get it. If you do manage to acquire this, then you lead with emps, then kite backward with bio while letting the viking/bc sit over and kill everything. Then when your bio killed the zealots you return and mop up the stalker/archon. Ryung vs Tassadar and Killer on Daybreak is one of the few examples of this.
On August 21 2012 04:24 ViceRoyce wrote: How to deal with colossus phoenix composition?
Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore.
On August 21 2012 04:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote: SO if I understand
tvz: you think that the best way to fight zerg is to harass them with something like (hellion-banshee) take a fast third and make a big fight at the 4th of the zerg.¨
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 4th of the zerg to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage))
tvp: on a map where the third is hard, make 5 rax before third and pressure the third of the toss.
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 3th of the protoss to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage)
@TvZ- Yes, that summary is more or less correct. Harass can be good depending on if they don't have any way to stop your vikings from clearing the air, but in general you don't want to over harass as your main army, which will win or lose the game, will be too weak. You want to force them to fight off creep somehow, which will either be somewhere in the middle or outside their 4th on most maps. If you can force them to fight 2 lair army battles off creep, you should be far enough ahead that you can win rather easily.
@TvP- Terran doesn't need to stop the 3rd of the Protoss, though winning vs 2 base P is obviously preferable. If they have good defense and the map is hard to drop on that's usually not an option though. Lategame TvP is playable so long as they don't make warp prisms. You need to rely on mass ghost armies and winning every battle, killing an expo, then retreating to heal up before going back and slaughtering them again. You can gain a large army supply advantage by making extra orbitals then sacking scvs.
On August 21 2012 04:52 Gyro_SC2 wrote: Ver do you have the feeling that terran can;t win vs a good zerg in lategame?
I think Terran is at a large disadvantage once the Zerg gets hive, as they become more cost efficient than you with little trade off. You can still win, but it relies on the Zerg being bad and you playing almost perfectly.
If however, you can stall for an unbelievably long length of time, you can reach BC/raven which will obliterate anything they can throw at you. See MVP vs Slivko on Metropolis.
On August 21 2012 06:21 babyToSS wrote: Ty all for this thread. I am mid-diamond level terran and I have a lot of trouble with mid-late game TvZ. I typically do fine upto to the 12-13 mins mark. I always go marine tank and have a pretty decent early to mid-late game. I am able to scout for all-ins or greedy play and react accordingly and quite often enter mid-late game either even or with a lead. The problem comes around the time when zerg starts getting a whole bunch of infestors and a fourth.
Basically at this point I opt for one of the following -
1) Put down lots of raxes and start pushing and dropping the zerg while taking a fourth. Usually a good idea on maps like antiga/ohana or when I have a lead and I know my push will do damage.
How I fail: Due to creep spread and infestors, I have to push slowly with my marine+tank and often the zerg has enough time to tech to ultras. At this point I am in a huge dilemma, if I keep pushing slowly, evetually the zerg overwhelms with a lot of units or counter attacks undefended bases with ultra ling. Against good zergs that split units for dealing with drops, it is also near impossible to retreat as they will scout and rush your retreating army with ultra ling. Basically, I end up losing my army and being denied a fourth base and then eventually get worn down by a remaxing zerg army with Blord tech switch.
2) If I don't push then I put down a fourth, make it a planetary and turtle to viking+HSM raven. I try to take a 5th but usually that is quite difficult against hive tech zerg with bank. In this case, I have trouble with ultra ling infestor. On large maps, counter-attacks are a danger. During the raven+HSM transition I try to drop to contain the zerg but sometimes the zerg simply attacks with maxed out ultra ling infestor. In this attack, (i) I either lose my army+4th and thus lose the game or (ii) I lose my 4th but have most of my army (the best case scenario, I pressure or get a nice window to get raven tech while taking 4th again) or (iii) I trade most of my army for most of zerg's. The (iii) case is the most likely one and in this case, I just die to the remax since I cannot produce fast enough and the raven+viking tech doesn't do anything.
So basically, my question to the pro (or any high masters) terrans is, what is your game plan in mid-late game TvZ? When zerg has a decent infestor count and turtling while going upto 4 and more bases, what do you do? Do you scout for anything specific, have any tech timings etc. Any help would be much appreciated. How do you deal with the above scenarios or is it the case that my mechanics are bad and the above scenarios should never happen?
Your goal is to put them uncomfortable from the start or at least the 10th or 11 minute mark and make it very hard for them to take a 4th base without a fight. If you go banshees, for example, you can park them over the 4th locations and if they don't make muta or corruptor they have a very hard time expanding (See Taeja/Losira from TAC finals on Antiga). In TvZ it's extraordinarily difficult to come back from a disadvantage. Taeja for example, is the only successful TvZer because he never, ever gets behind. If you do end up at a disadvantage, then you have to make a choice: can you attack them with a maxed army before hive tech units are out? If not, take 4th, turtle til 200, get the buildings you need to rapidly tech switch depending on what they do.
For an example of turtling against ultra/ling, watch marineking vs hyun on Entombed from the ipl5 replay pack. Marineking gets way behind from suiciding two armies but just defends a really strong position and Hyun a-moves ultras into something he shouldn't twice. Going ravens against ultra/ling/infestor is not advisable unless you have a lot of excess money or you want to prepare minutes ahead of time for him switching to broods. Seeker missile is totally useless vs ultras and only works somewhat vs ling/bane/infestor. Ghosts are much stronger vs ultra based armies, as his ultra ling cant beat marine marauder if you can kite, which means you just need to disable the infestors. Plus, unlike broodlords, he can't exactly attack your ghosts from range.
For turtling vs broodlords and really rushing raven/viking, the only map you can do that on is Metropolis because of its sheer size and ability to defend easily. MVP did this approach in several games, most notably against Slivko and Nestea in the recent IEM. He used pf's to wall the chokes in order to stop the ultra possibility and just dropped a bunch in hte midgame to keep the Zerg off balance.
First of all, thank you very much for creating this thread. My question is regarding 11/11 2 rax. When you do perform this 2 rax push, how many scvs are usually pulled in order make this build effective and be not too all-in(recoverable if the some form of dmg has been done with the initial push)? Also, in terms of transition after 2 rax push is finished, is it better to go fast 3rd cc? Or grab 2nd cc into quick double gas for banshee/helions follow up?
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
Thank you!
Just quoting this in case you missed it Ver
Thought id offer my opinion on this even though I'm not on the same level as ver (currently around 1550 pts NA masters). I think it is fairly universal that bio is better than mech, mech is better than marine-tank and marine-tank is better than bio. If the mech player covers their base perfectly with turrets, sensor towers and tank placement you can still engage head on in a couple ways. One way is to have ~4 medvacs full of marauders flying with your army and enough vikings to have air superiority. You are then able to drop the medvacs on top of the opponents mech and push in with the rest of your army and trade pretty well. The other option (assuming you don't transition to nukes or air) is aggressively expand with a small bio force set up in certain locations to limit hellion runbys while having great concaves/flanks set up if the mech player tries to push on you.
Hi, in TvP, I've seen GuMiHo try to get his first 5 marines out of his natural before the opponent's stalker gets to his base so he can go around and snipe stuff while the stalker is caught in the middle of the map or at GuMiHo's natural. How can I do this as well? Does he only do it when he scouts a certain something or is it planned as part of his build? I've tried it a couple of times but I have only been able to dodge the stalker if the protoss was killing my ebay at his natural. I also feel like I can't get 5 marines out, only 4. Could you explain to me how GuMiHo does this and the thinking behind it? Thanks!
Which way is currently the definitive TvT style? I have not seen very many TvT's lately so I do not really know which styles are popular now. I still play a very outdated marine-tank style.
Also, as a side note, when is God of the Battlefield Part Two coming out?
Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
Not even unless. Here is how TaeJa is dealing with 6pool when going cc before rax. It requires great multitasking and knowing some nice spots to hide rax that can block marines. HERE !
Not sure what would happen if zerg would not bring his drones. I guess it is impossible to win. Even wining scv vs lings (not sure if possible also ;D) you would be really behind (scv loss and zerg mining the whole time, next wave of roaches or banes would clear everything out)
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
So a tournament Zerg can be taken for granted to go 15 hatch but what about ladder Zergs? Or is the advantage from going CC first over a one-basing Zerg so high at a certain level of play that a one-base Zerg push will generally not break a CC first Terran?
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
Not even unless. Here is how TaeJa is dealing with 6pool when going cc before rax. It requires great multitasking and knowing some nice spots to hide rax that can block marines. HERE !
Not sure what would happen if zerg would not bring his drones. I guess it is impossible to win. Even wining scv vs lings (not sure if possible also ;D) you would be really behind (scv loss and zerg mining the whole time, next wave of roaches or banes would clear everything out)
Yeah, I know that game, it was lovely! Thanks for bringing it up, it's so uplifting to think about it, lol.
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
So a tournament Zerg can be taken for granted to go 15 hatch but what about ladder Zergs? Or is the advantage from going CC first over a one-basing Zerg so high at a certain level of play that a one-base Zerg push will generally not break a CC first Terran?
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
Not even unless. Here is how TaeJa is dealing with 6pool when going cc before rax. It requires great multitasking and knowing some nice spots to hide rax that can block marines. HERE !
Not sure what would happen if zerg would not bring his drones. I guess it is impossible to win. Even wining scv vs lings (not sure if possible also ;D) you would be really behind (scv loss and zerg mining the whole time, next wave of roaches or banes would clear everything out)
Yeah, I know that game, it was lovely! Thanks for bringing it up, it's so uplifting to think about it, lol.
I don't play terran so i might be wrong on this, but opening 6pool is suicide against anything that is not a cc first afaik. A cheesy ladder zerg will more likely roach/bane bust you or something like along those lines. Ver or any other high level terran would have to confirm that.
I am pretty sure that any 1base allin that can punish cc first would have to be done blindly, and i'm pretty sure it would also be bad against anything but cc first and crazy stuff like proxy 11/11. Don't quote me on that though.
Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings.
In tvz are you force to do a hellion-banshee pressure?
On August 29 2012 02:42 Teoita wrote: I don't play terran so i might be wrong on this, but opening 6pool is suicide against anything that is not a cc first afaik.
No, 6 pool + drone pull can also win 1 rax FE before second Depot, especially if the Terran built his first two buildings as part of the wall. The Zerg surrounds and attacks your Barracks, preventing your first Marine from escaping, and then all you have left is 15 SCVs and a flying Barracks. I guess you can then react like CC first, i. e. running away with your SCVs and splitting them in order to try to sneak a Barracks/Bunker somewhere to land your CC/OC (don't know if it's better to cancel the OC or not), but now we enter into unexplored areas; the two times I saw this, the Korean Terrans facing this 6-pool all-in tried to fight with 15 SCVs against Zerglings/Drones and of course lost.
In tvz are you force to do a hellion-banshee pressure?
Nope, it depends on your style. Some people are successful with bio (the better your micro, the higher success rate with this, I guess), some with MTV, most people probably need to go mech if they want to win. I go mech without air, like no air whatsoever to the point I'd just make more thors or make a horde of marines instead of vikings and try to use them situationally if I really needed better/dedicated anti-air, but I've never played guys higher than plat. Hellion-banshee is probably just the most frequent and most efficient style right now per average.
What is the best thing to do (timing, composition) vs a zerg who go 2 base fast infestor when I want to go biotank (I just want to say that I don't mech)?
Macro, more base? Drop ? ghost? big tankrine push?
On August 21 2012 12:25 Absurd Bunny wrote: Hi Ver, I've been reading some of the questions and answers that you give and they have upped my game. Although they do help me in my game, they do not answer the answers I'm looking for that I have problems with. I'm currently in gold league. 1. In almost every matchup, I will do a 1 rax fast expand, sometimes against zerg if it's tal darim altar or entombed valley, I might do a command center first. But when I scout something like zerg, protoss, or terran going double gas on one base and goes to all in, I don't know the proper counter. I know that there is an all in coming, but I don't know what units are going to come, how many there are going to be, and what units I should make to counter it, how many bunkers, should I lift my second base, halt scv production, etc etc. What is a correct counter to this? 2. I'm having hard times with TvP and TvZ, TvT I'm doing much better but the mistakes I make are much easily to correct and have to do with mechanics. I want to do bio TvZ, I can micro well against banelings and infestors, but I don't know how to get a good amount early game, or build up supply to at least defend against zerg, but the thread on it here with the build isn't working for me and I can't get enough units to defend all ins and do the timing correctly. I'm getting scvs and building units on time and constantly, but I can't seem to defend when an all ins coming. Is there a different build order that can go bio TvZ or a FE transition that can do it? 3. (this is TvP) I know how to get the units in TvP, I can defend early game pushes, all ins, and win in the midgame, but the lategame and the units that protoss comes out with are something can I win against too, or survive, but I can't get the engagement right, even if the area we are fighting is good, or even if I have the better units. I always get mmmvg for the lategame, but I can't seem to get the emps, and I barely get nukes, but if I do it won't work either. Usually the Templars storm before I can get the ghosts to emp, or the emps don't go and I lose the battle. I know the first thing to do is stim, or if there's no observer to cloak ghosts and emp, then stim, but if he has observers, what should I do? I stim the mmm, a move the vikings, and try to use ghosts to emp, but it seems like he always gets the first storm, and I die first, or something happens in the engagement when I emp, I still lose. 4. What is the best way to increase map awareness? I've been laddering today and I played a lot of TvTs, and I still won over 50% of them, but there are a lot of drops that I don't see even though I have a sensor tower, or I only see it after he drops and is attacking.
Thanks, this thread is very useful to me and I've been moving up and am now in high gold with the answers that you give to other people. I wish more people would start doing things like this!
1) Ultimately this depends on the allin and without more specific information I can't give any real advice. Basically depending on what your scv scouts you can narrow it down, then potentially you can determine the allin based on hidden scv or a scan, then you can make the correct response. Yeah it's stupidly hard
2) Best build to doing [ire bio is not doing it. Second best bio build is one of Taeja's openings where you stay marine heavy but transition into 2 fact tanks. Take a look at Taeja vs Annyeungprime from Liquid vs Prime in the TAC.
If you are really fixated on bio, I suggest the Taeja vs Sheth games from Redbull Lan and MKP vs Stephano on Cloud Kingdom from MLG Anaheim. But no top Terran has stayed with pure bio because it is gimmicky and bad.
3) This is really tricky but it comes down to watching a lot of pro games, especially fpvods, and just getting a feel for how the units work and how your army flows from your hands. TvP engagements is all about feeling comfortable, which means knowing when to watch your army, knowing what needs to be done, and having enough practice doing it that your hands just move freely. In specifics, it means you intuitively know the range of emp, snipe, and storm, your hands automatically spread your units without thinking, and you can gauge when to spread if you think a storm is coming. Marineking is probably the best person to watch for this, along with Taeja.
4) Nothing easy here, it just requires training your eyes to react to it without looking at it. I suggest watching through fpview of replays or vods of progamers of your race with a close eye on the minimap the entire time, just with the intention of noticing anything red coming in.
On August 21 2012 13:14 washikie wrote: You mentioned the 1 rax cc into hellion banshee build for mech and i was wondering what you think of this open when it is used to transition into a more bio mech focused play vs the straight up mech play? Also i was curious if you think that if you go for a more mineral heavy play such as bio with this build if its a good idea to go 1 rax => cc => reactor factory => in base orbital => and than cloak banshee or does this delay banshees to long to be worthwhile? I have been playing around with this kind of opening and im not sure if its a good or bad idea vs the normal hellion banshee than third. thanks -washikie masters terran Na server (p.s when asking my question about the fast 3rd orbital im not concerned with the raoch all in i have faced this with that build and survived due to scouting and forgoing the third for faster banshees if i can sniff it out.)
hellion/banshee can transition into either bio or mech with no disadvantage either. That build is fine. Hellion/banshee of almost any variant is safe vs almost any allin except perhaps on hte really short rush distance maps. You definitely don't need to go double gas before depot after rax cc to be safe (which delays the third cc a lot). The faster hellion/banshee is really only good for punishing excessively greedy Zergs (i,e Marineking vs Spanishiwa on Cloud Kingdom, from MLG raleigh) or for holding allins.
On August 21 2012 17:53 Thezzy wrote: Awesome thread Ver, some really good bits in there.
In TvZ, how do you feel about Mass Hellion openings? I'm currently doing MvPs build where he gets a second Reactor Factory after doing a Reaction Hellion FE, producing 4 hellions for a while. One barracks is added a little later and both rax get Tech Labs and can provide an instant switch to double tank, 4x marine production although upgrades are late. (I usually switch to tanks around 8:00 - 8:30 unless I scout something like Roach pressure) I do like Mass Hellion openings but I was wondering if you had seen any other Mass Hellion builds and what kind of success players were having with them?
For TvP, I currently do Day9's Mech TvP build where you open with a 1-1-1 cloakshee expand and then get Thor/Raven/Marine and later add Tanks. Do you know any other Mech TvP builds that saw some success as I saw Goody try heavy tank play in IEM but it failed horribly so I'm guessing mass Tank early on isn't very strong against a good Protoss?
Double reactor hellion is a gimmick that is rarely seen precisely for that reason. It actually 100% relies on the Zerg being bad (or used on cloud kingdom, where they cant get a reliable scout). Basically if you do it and they see it coming with an ovie scout, they'll just make roach and wall what they need to while pushing creep and droning like normal. You also have a weakness to (rare) mass roach allins. Alternatively, if they are rushing 2 hatch muta you can have a build order loss so long as they see it and can get 2 spines/wall up in time at the natural.
If you want an example where the Zerg was too lazy to scout and the Terran got a nice position from it, see Dream vs Sleep on Entombed from the GESL. Unfortunately, there's just no way to stop that overlord on non-cloud kingdom maps.
@TvP Mech- Tanks are a terrible unit against Protoss except in holding allins, beating up sentries/stalkers, and being annoying at certain positions/chokes. Any kind of success with mech is going to come from hellion/banshee and doing damage to their econ, or for some thor/banshee timing as these units are very strong vs Protoss.
That build you said does not even make sense though. It seems to be a bastardization of the more practical cloak banshee cc -> banshee/thor/(light) rine 2/3 base timing that players like Jjakji used several times. Jjakji vs puzzle from GSL semis, Jjakji vs Mana from Iron Squid, both on Daybreak, are good examples. Adding tanks to it later makes very little sense as they don't really do much, and that build is a timing attack play anyway. Ghost transition would serve the purpose much better so you can reduce the damage of feedback.
There is no stable mech build. You could probably transition into mech from Taeja's cloak banshee/tank/triple cc opening (used vs Seed on Ohana from TAC finals or Bischu on Cloud Kingdom from TAC). Ultimately the only strength of mech is blue flame runbys in the midgame to butcher their probe count. Whatever mech build you choose should emphasize that.
On August 21 2012 18:04 ff7legend wrote: Recently ive been seeing a number of terrans go for a marine tank push TvP. I was wondering what the pro's and cons of doing this. Im just trying to see the benefits of going this strategy over a standard bioball
There aren't many. It's mostly a coinflip/threat of a coinflip, as dedicated tank pushes can break protoss who are playing too greedily. It also gives you great defense against most allins. The main reason most pro Terrans use it is to make the Protoss think they are doing a dedicated tank timing, which makes them play more defensive and use chronos on units instead of upgrades/probes. Dedicated tank timing attacks are not good but the threat of them is enough to make the Protoss play safe.
Marine/tank/medivac attacks also murder the Parting build, which is a unique trait, as the Parting build will have a mass of slow zealot/sentry. The tanks focus fire the latter and hte marines just kite the slow zealots.
On August 22 2012 00:20 StateofReverie wrote: Ive been working on a tvz build where I get cc first into 3OC double ups and siege tanks. I get the cc first because I try to bait out a fast double expo before spawning pool by the zerg which usually works. If the zerg is greedy and does that, I get a third oc and double engi bays before siege. basically I can either push at 13/16 minutes with 2/2 or 3/3 and I will have a big siege tank count of about 7-8 when I do push. If you want some replays ill upload them but what do you think otherwise?
edit: replay drop.sc/241664
I tried this build too but it doesn't work very well even on a map like Antiga (the best map for it) once you play people who will have the entire map in creep at 12-13 mins with no pressure. Your first push has to be essentially perfect and you have so little leeway/time. Not recommended.
On August 22 2012 01:46 StateofReverie wrote: i sort of bend the rules here. Even though I have a large timing window to attack, I also send a drop to take out any outlying expansions and I also use another drop a couple minutes before I push to exterminate some zerg creep. You can say I have 2 goals when I push out. It lets me take a fourth base and to pressure him. the only way he has tier 3 out if he gets like a 13 min hive which I always scan for to see mutas, roaches, or tech.
In reality on larger maps it is too hard to push back creep enough to kill his fourth base so I stay off creep otherwise I lose battles on creep. zerg 5th bases are always easier to shut down because it extends them pretty far so drops then become a lot stronger
This doesn't make sense. Isolated drops without a push threat are completely useless as they will spot it with overlords/creep and eihter kill it (if they went muta or corruptor) or just deny it from doing anything. If you send out 3-4 dropships to 2-3 spots you can force enough units home that you can have a window to clear creep but this is a last ditch desperation move only if they get an excessive amount of creep as you are sacrificing a lot of units to do it. Fighting for the 4th is critical, as 4 base hive is generally too powerful to keep in check and you need to force them to bleed lair units to save it. If you are trying to deny their 5th that means they already have ultras or broods out and you must remain on the defensive or just rely on splitting them up.
Taking a 4th base early is very important though, that's spot on.
On August 22 2012 02:15 .kv wrote: I posted this in the Protoss Help Me Thread but would like some insight from the Terrans POV.
In late game PvT, I'm having issues dealing with the Mass Ghost/Viking+MMM.
I'm not sure what the ideal comp is and how to deal with the engagement part.
I usually go 4 colossus/4hts/8 stalkers and the rest is chargelot/archon and 1 sentry for GS. That's the comp I usually go for when dealing with this army. I have 4 hts back at my base generating energy as well.
The engagement part is a big issue. I've tried multiple ways and still not successful with any of them. One way is where I position my blink stalkers where I see the vikings coming from and attack with colo/chargelot/archon. Wait for the emps and then send my 4hts behind my army to storm the units. But I end up losing my entire army when my storm connects so I don't have zealots dealing the extra damage as well with the storm. Another way is sending my hts in the front to try to feedback any forward ghosts or storm bio units but it's pretty unsuccessful against good Terrans.
I'm wondering if I should just incorporate some phoenixes (4 or 5) with upgraded range to deal with vikings a bit more now. I feel like it heavily depends more on the colo staying alive than my HTs. Yes the upgrade and investment is pretty steep but I get to the point where economy isn't really the issue. Or is there a better way of dealing with this comp?
The most important things to do in lategame PvT are: 1) Warp Prism harass (zealot/dt + storm raids) 2) stagger your templars 3) Keep expanding 4) Protect expansions with cannon templar
It's perfectly okay to lose lategame PvT fights: the game would be completely broken if Protoss could win them reliably. The Protoss lategame strength is cost efficiency, better harassment/harassment defense, and the ability to overrun the Terran army in fights by warping in dozens of zealot/archon/dt mid battle.
The Parting vs Jjakji from Code S is extremely important watch for Protoss players. Jjakji wins every battle but the last one and loses anyway because Parting throws storms from every angle and just relies on Protoss being more cost efficient. I could try to describe what I mean by staggering templars (as that is the key to getting off storms) but it's better to just watch Parting do it, as he is the master.
No you should never use phoenix TvP, they are a supplysink. You will win lategame fights if either a) you have too many colossus for their viking count or you kill all their vikings quickly with storm (vikings are a high priority target yes, and generally more stormable than the rest of the Terran kiting army). or b) you land 1 or 2 storms.a) is not a reliable method of winning, as it relies on them being bad, but b) is something you can control.
Go into the unit tester with a Terran friend and do a normal battle in lategame conditions, with a general 1a on each side and cast as much as possible. Now enter the battle with both of your armies completely pre split and in massive concaves. If you do it right the Protoss will slaughter the Terran every time. I'm guessing your armies are really clumped up in battles and 4-5 emps just massacre everything. But if your army is pre spread enough so that the Terran requires 10-15 emps to hit everything, he is going to get completely smashed.
On August 22 2012 08:30 NewbieOne wrote: Hey, Ver. Sorry to hear about the team. I hope you can find a great one soon where you feel home! Thanks for giving your time to help others in the game!
I'd have a couple of questions of my own, generally short ones. Some are specific, some not really. Let me start from the more specific ones:
1. One of my favourite builds ever is this, i.e. Thorzain TvT, a react first three-rax without greedy expanding. What I like about it is that it's simply the best optimised threerax for this type of thing. Basically the three-rax that allows you to outmarine (+ shield, 2 tanks, 2 vacs around 11:00) everybody else without making you tankless (although it takes time to practice defence against early tank pushes). My question is, does this build seem to be viable in TvZ or TvP? (But especially TvP given the reliance on marines and the presence of about 2 tanks for sieging/baiting needs.)
2. I've been intrigued by this, i.e. LastShadow's six rax TvP. It just feels like something I could do, plus, focusing just on rax/rines like that for a while could perhaps improve my marine control and maybe some macro concepts. Do you think this is a viable general build for ladder TvP or is it more of a unique oddity from LastShadow? Could it be used convincingly against other races?
TvZ is about the only match-up where I actually know what I'm doing. I've generally consistently worked on the "right build for me". It's always been based on marines, hellions and thors but with varying transition or addition timings, with or without addon swapping, with or without e-bays/third/PF etc., with or without or with a different type of harass etc. The core idea is having both hellions and thors in a right proportion, without dabbling in marines or any other units if I can help it. Normally starting from three naked facts, bunker if roaches, bunker rush if late pool. About the time I go for the hellion push (which is 6-10 around 7:30-8:00 rather than an early 2-4, and generally aimed to remove lings and hopefully fry some drones too), I get armouries (generally 2, for double upgrades but depends on resources) and addons (reactor too or another naked fact because I want to keep making hellions too) and plant the expo in nat (often actually PF if the Zerg gets a lot of roaches, as I prefer to avoid supply-intensive defences against that). Depending on what happens/what he has, after the push I either defend for a while and expand and max out or pressure him but I generally want to have my 200/200 hellion thor plus SCVs before 20:00, 16:00 if possible, unless it's obvious I can cripple him to a point of no return somewhere between 10:00-12:00 or unless 150/200 to be enough or unless 3/3 hits earlier or something else happens situationally. Generally relying on upgrades, expansions (OC/PF depending on Zerg's level of aggression), hellion/thor proportions and micro/positioning, pulling SCVs to repair (and block ling access to some extent), dropping mules for repairs, rather than taking chances with getting airports, tanks, otherwise mixing the composition. I've used this build so much that I've learnt a lot about handling it and this knowledge helps me immensely, so I'm more comfortable doing this than dabbling with rax and ports (needless to say, I'm really happy when I see corruptors when I don't even have a port ). My question is, is this build liable to get roflstomped at higher levels of play due to all the corner cutting in it and the higher skill of, say, master zergs compared to plat zergs (who can't normally break this even with a hearty bunch of lolfestors/gglords )? Basically, I'm wondering if this is a build that works because of its merits (simple, lean, compact, adaptable, well-practiced) or a build that works right now just because my opponents are "bad" but wouldn't work between two players at master skill. Also, would it be better (as in more efficient without being significantly riskier), in your opinion, to throw in banshees and/or ravens into this build anyway, like most players do, at the cost of giving some of the advantages of this build?
#4 is a bit longer and more personal (and I'll understand if you prefer to skip this one as it doesn't have much to do with strategy for playing, more like strategy for improvement; at the same time, I'll be particularly grateful if you do reply):
4. I'd played almost exclusively single-player campaigns/games vs. AI in many different RTS games for many years before getting online (where I played some Warcraft 2 Battle.net Edition in 2004-2005 (maybe 1500 games, I guess I was a name but not a top gosu) and then Warcraft 3 TFT in 2005-2008 (some 3000 games, something of a high dia/low master player in comparison)), it's hard to break certain still surviving habits (after so many years) that are harmful in human vs human. As in, in SP, especially storyline campaigns, you sort of conserve resources, stay on the defensive, watch your base, prepare for scripted attacks and expect storyline to unfold, avoid setting off triggers on the map, don't need to scout so much (or there's no point or it's actually harmful when you uncover something too early), aren't so pressured to keep maxing your production, don't really harass for distraction (only really for damage), you often cheese because you're supposed to, AI is either dumb or cheating (if not actually both) and there's the reload/restart button which means you don't have to play extra safe. As a result, I kinda struggle with being active, scouting consistently, always finding stuff to do (it's not a problem for me to hit 400 apm in battles but it's like 40-60 average and periods of 0), well, basically doing things, claiming the damn map, getting things done. Particularly in SC2, I feel like I'm racing against time, as in build order/production race plus the likely proxy cheese/some other cheese/lucky drop that makes leaving my base in early game an excruciating experience. Massing more games doesn't seem to be an efficient solution: it helps (with stuff like making more workers, which isn't exactly a WC3 player's top area) but not that much, as people with much fewer games/less experience overlap me rather easily, e.g. a guy I taught to play WC3 overlapped me and later actually coached me in turn. The gap between us was huge eventually, he kinda skyrocketed very shortly after reaching my own level: he got sponsored, had a brush with tournaments etc. in a matter of weeks or at least very few months from there. He inherited some of the characteristic flaws of my style but worked most of them out eventually. He then switched to SC2 in or after beta and made mid-master the moment the league was introduced, while I never made it past high gold in SC2 after 400 games before I stopped playing in late January this year. In fact, our 3v3 partner, who was supposedly a total newcomer to RTS, was always only slightly behind me on the solo ladder, I also had a gold buddy who got dia with much fewer games on record than my number (good for him, btw, hope he enters masters soon and waits for me with the victory toast). This is all too familiar to my WC3 experience like losing games I should've won (not only in my judgement) or actually almost had won, losing after or despite a significant lead, losing to visibly less experienced players (happy for them but anyway ), losing games because of getting less sharp due to tiredness etc.This is a bit saddening, as in it feels like something's wrong with me. Some time this autumn, I should finish my Ph.D. procedures and be able to take a month off before I move on to more cramming. Do you think I should mass ladders like 12 hours a day for a full month to refresh my mechanics and force a skill jump? Or play fewer games but stop and analyse every replay? Or play custom games with much higher skilled people and lose game after game until I start winning? Or use the AI/training maps to address specific areas? What do you think would be the best thing to do here?
Thank you for the kind words
1) Thorzain's TvT build works perfectly fine in TvP as it is just an optimization of the standard opening. I think he began using it in both matchups at the same time. It is bad in TvZ because it fits in the 'scoutable 2 base timing attack' mold which auto loses to any competent Zerg.
2) This is a gimmick, don't bother. When you get builds, it's very important to consider the source. Take them from Thorzain or the top korean pros, no other.
3) If you want a bludgeon type marine/thor/hellion build, I highly suggest the build Marineking has used on Metropolis (and entombed) in his TvZs in the past 3 months (from KSL finals vs curious is one example). This build feels gimmicky though when I've used it because if they just turtle bl/infestor/queen you can't really break them and you have barely 1 timing attack before they have broods. On a larger map you don't have even that, and when broods are out your chances of winning goes down drastically unless they commit too early instead of turtling for critical mass.
4) I have been in a somewhat similar position, as I am going for my phd while playing competitively. This really depends on what level you want to get to. The most important thing is to watch enough games that you know what to do and to play a little bit every day or 5-6 days a week so you can keep your skill. I have been forced to take a month or two off at a time due to school and my skill level plummets when I do; it takes another month or two to get back to my old level or higher (of playing maybe 20-25 hrs a day).
Grinding ladder games is a long term solution, not a short one, and is only worthwhile if your theoretical knowledge is pristine AND you pour over every replay. My results often drop briefly when playing more than 4 hours a day for longer than a couple days.
I would personally recommend a three step procedure:
1) Watch enough top kor pro games in each matchup to gain a strong idea of what you should be doing. Revisit them every week or so to match up your play with theirs and see what is different. 2) Practice your build orders on a map alone and practice specific micro on a micro map. Always do this in your first game of the day.
3) Play the people who are much better over and over, alternating this occasionally with ladder.
On August 22 2012 02:15 .kv wrote: I posted this in the Protoss Help Me Thread but would like some insight from the Terrans POV.
In late game PvT, I'm having issues dealing with the Mass Ghost/Viking+MMM.
I'm not sure what the ideal comp is and how to deal with the engagement part.
I usually go 4 colossus/4hts/8 stalkers and the rest is chargelot/archon and 1 sentry for GS. That's the comp I usually go for when dealing with this army. I have 4 hts back at my base generating energy as well.
The engagement part is a big issue. I've tried multiple ways and still not successful with any of them. One way is where I position my blink stalkers where I see the vikings coming from and attack with colo/chargelot/archon. Wait for the emps and then send my 4hts behind my army to storm the units. But I end up losing my entire army when my storm connects so I don't have zealots dealing the extra damage as well with the storm. Another way is sending my hts in the front to try to feedback any forward ghosts or storm bio units but it's pretty unsuccessful against good Terrans.
I'm wondering if I should just incorporate some phoenixes (4 or 5) with upgraded range to deal with vikings a bit more now. I feel like it heavily depends more on the colo staying alive than my HTs. Yes the upgrade and investment is pretty steep but I get to the point where economy isn't really the issue. Or is there a better way of dealing with this comp?
You can always just make like 2 colossi, and trick the terran so they overmake vikings. Also you can try putting your temps in a speed prism, to avoid EMP, but be careful of vikings ofcourse!
As a Terran, I kinda regret every viking that could be a marauder or 2 rines (better DPS and more standing power for my ground army, which is my backbone), so I always make sure I don't overdo the number (because after killing off the colossi, which is their sole goal, they're mostly useless save for semi-decent ground support and some limited harass opportunity if they actually live to see it). And it wouldn't be unexpected for a Toss to get just two and then cut production. If I had a strong suspicion that the Toss were going to have a low number of colossi, I'd probably just spawn more MMM (and maybe with more emphasis on marauders), skipping vikings altogether.
Can't skip vikings if they have more than 1 colo You should change that way of thinking about vikings though: if they don't have colo (from vikings, or just bad), and don't land storms (which relies on emp), your army will massacre theirs even if you have a disproportionate number of supply in vikings so long as you have enough medivacs, ghosts, and marines (marauders rather suck).
Oh no Ver I think you missed it again.. T_T I will copy paste again, hopefully you won't miss it this time!! Or maybe you can PM me the answer if you wish.
======
Hello Ver
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
I've just faced a few colossus phoenix builds on the korean ladder (mid-high masters) and I'd like to know what approach you'd use against it.
Here are two questions I have:
1) Would you recommend a 2 prong attack (3-4 medivac drop and another attack with bio+vikings) against phoenix colossus if I manage to deny vision? (since the phoenixes and colossus have to be together or toss risks being overrun by a strong head on attack)
2) Gas spending - would it be better to get my 2/2 faster or focus my gas towards mass vikings? (would the addition of 3 ghosts instead of 4 vikings fare better against such a composition)
I haven't actually played against this style before and it doesn't really see the light in competitive play (if you have any please link me) so any advice would be appreciated.
On August 29 2012 16:06 Ver wrote: The Parting vs Jjakji from Code S is extremely important watch for Protoss players. Jjakji wins every battle but the last one and loses anyway because Parting throws storms from every angle and just relies on Protoss being more cost efficient. I could try to describe what I mean by staggering templars (as that is the key to getting off storms) but it's better to just watch Parting do it, as he is the master.
I can't find this vod...I searched in GomTV's database and the only time they encountered one another is in the team league and Jjakji won in that game.
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
On August 30 2012 10:28 SHODAN wrote: The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax.
Im not sure how you can call that an "opening". Going tanks after THREE cc's is hardly an opener. More like early mid game.
Ver if I do bombers build in tvp is it better to go 2 reactors 1 tech lab or 2 tech labs 1 reactor. I know most pros go 2 reactors 1 tech lab, but I don't know if my micro is good enough against collosus. So which one should a low level player go?
Hey there Ver, at the moment versus protoss I tend to 1 Rax FE into 2 naked rax and one tech lab however I've seen a variation where you go 2 reactor 1 tech lab and then go for some agression earlier on.
From what I can see the reactors will delay all your tech by 100 gas, so stim becomes later and in turn factories and eventually medivacs (I usually go for a 10 minute push with MMM) however you gain an extra 2 marines per cycle.
Is there anything I've left out that you would be able to point out, and do you think the 2 reactor is worth switching to? (Baring in mind that it's purpose is to put on some aggression before the 10 minute mark)
Thanks if you can help! This is my most feared matchup atm!
Thanks for this thread Ver, excellent info. I have more generic question about build order in general, specifically in regards to how the different ladders (KR vs EU vs NA etc) function and the players they produce.
I've read quite a bit recently on how the Korean players (and Terrans specifically) are simply on a higher level than the EU and NA Terrans, whereas Protoss and Zerg are a bit more on equal footing (no doubt you saw the thread). Assuming this is true, part of the reason people accounted for the difference was because they were not afraid to do agressive all-in/cheese builds. Now I'm pretty sure that at lower levels trying to macro will get you farther than all-ins or cheese, but at higher levels of the game (I'm gold league, talking about diamond+ here), would mixing in a lot more reactionary styles or all-ins etc help you improve more than just 1 rax FEing or the equivalent every game? When and why do you add in a non-macro game on ladder or in competition?
Deleted my post, I made a miscalculation in figuring marine vs marauder in TvP fights, figuring only number of shots while disregarding cooldown, forgetting that marines shoot 50% faster than marauders, basically reducing their dps in my calculations by that much.
On August 31 2012 00:21 happyft wrote: I understand that marines raw dps is equal to twice that of a marauder on a cost-basis, but if you consider that all protoss units have a natural 1 armor, the dps numbers even out. Add guardian shield on top, and marauders are actually more dps efficient.
Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor upgrade Zealot under Guardian Shield (a really unfavourable situation for the Marine). Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 2 damage to armor, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/7 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply for shields, and for armor too when upgrades are even / GS is not factored. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough.
On August 31 2012 00:21 happyft wrote: I understand that marines raw dps is equal to twice that of a marauder on a cost-basis, but if you consider that all protoss units have a natural 1 armor, the dps numbers even out. Add guardian shield on top, and marauders are actually more dps efficient.
Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor Zealot under Guardian Shield. Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 3 damage to life, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/10,5 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough.
Even though your math is slightly off in that marines do 4 damage to guardian shielded shields, giving a dps of 14/10.5, I see your point is correct -- my math is pretty off in calculating against zealots. I'll update my post accordingly, thanks.
On August 31 2012 00:21 happyft wrote: I understand that marines raw dps is equal to twice that of a marauder on a cost-basis, but if you consider that all protoss units have a natural 1 armor, the dps numbers even out. Add guardian shield on top, and marauders are actually more dps efficient.
Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor Zealot under Guardian Shield. Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 3 damage to life, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/10,5 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough.
Even though your math is slightly off in that marines do 4 damage to guardian shielded shields, giving a dps of 14/10.5, I see your point is correct -- my math is pretty off in calculating against zealots. I'll update my post accordingly, thanks.
Actually the mistake was for the armor part, I edited my post. I was talking about 1 attack upgrade Marines, so they deal 7 damage, -2 from GS = 5.
On August 31 2012 00:21 happyft wrote: I understand that marines raw dps is equal to twice that of a marauder on a cost-basis, but if you consider that all protoss units have a natural 1 armor, the dps numbers even out. Add guardian shield on top, and marauders are actually more dps efficient.
Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor Zealot under Guardian Shield. Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 3 damage to life, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/10,5 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough.
Even though your math is slightly off in that marines do 4 damage to guardian shielded shields, giving a dps of 14/10.5, I see your point is correct -- my math is pretty off in calculating against zealots. I'll update my post accordingly, thanks.
Actually the mistake was for the armor part, I edited my post. I was talking about 1 attack upgrade Marines, so they deal 7 damage, -2 from GS = 5.
So I crunched the numbers factoring in cooldowns, and all I have to say is damn guardian shield is OP.
In comparing marine vs marauder against zealot, marine's are 100% more efficient vs zealots w/o GS, 63% more efficient w/ GS. Against stalker, it's about even w/o GS, and w/ GS marauder is 35% more efficient.
Ok, now here's the numbers on how OP guardian shield is:
Without guardian shield, 2 marines kill a zealot in 8.3 seconds vs. 1 marauder in 17 seconds. With GS, it takes 13.5 and 22 seconds, a 60% and 30% increase in time! For a stalker the numbers are 8.6 sec / 8.0 sec w/o GS, and 13.5 sec / 10.0 sec w/ GS, a 57% and 25% increase in time.
Basically against a 100% marine army guardian shield increases protoss army life by ~60%; one third marauder mix is still a ~50% increase; half marauder mix is a ~45% increase!
In essence, guardian shield basically completely negates the bonus attack stim gives. This is probably why 2 base all-inns are so powerful when they hit before stim! Essentially the protoss army has the 60% health benefit from GS without having to deal with the Terran 50% stim attack bonus.
Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
Protoss player here.
Why does the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 get decimated? It shouldn't. There might be other things going on, such as the protoss player having poor macro or micro. You should be treating a thor all-in the same as a 1/1/1.
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
Protoss player here.
Why does the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 get decimated? It shouldn't. There might be other things going on, such as the protoss player having poor macro or micro. You should be treating a thor all-in the same as a 1/1/1.
I know you're a protoss player <3
I'm not sure exactly, I think the lack of AOE makes it really difficult to stop with the repairing scvs. The only thing I've been able to stop it with (at 1.2-1.3k master) is stalker/col and kiting mid map, but I have to build the robo bay immediately/blindly and I feel that's risky if it's a faster 1/1/1.
But yeah the build is waay easier to execute than defend, so maybe even at midish masters level we don't have the proper control for it, but I've literally seen not one protoss on ladder stop it with standard defense ;\
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
Protoss player here.
Why does the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 get decimated? It shouldn't. There might be other things going on, such as the protoss player having poor macro or micro. You should be treating a thor all-in the same as a 1/1/1.
I know you're a protoss player <3
I'm not sure exactly, I think the lack of AOE makes it really difficult to stop with the repairing scvs. The only thing I've been able to stop it with (at 1.2-1.3k master) is stalker/col and kiting mid map, but I have to build the robo bay immediately/blindly and I feel that's risky if it's a faster 1/1/1.
But yeah the build is waay easier to execute than defend, so maybe even at midish masters level we don't have the proper control for it, but I've literally seen not one protoss on ladder stop it with standard defense ;\
You'll have to provide a replay, because the standard 5 gate robo response should do the trick. A vast majority of people on ladder just don't know the exact perfect responses to everything. The tank version is just better imo.
When I try to play mech TvZ, I keep getting counterattacked by his whole army, his roach army is so much faster than my mech and i can't catch up. I even tried blocking off paths with PFs but since he has his whole army 1a'ing all over the place, i have no idea what i can do to win. How do i kill the zerg without dying to nonstop counterattacks with his whole army?
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
12-13 minutes seem really late...I feel like Protoss can even tech to get a few HT opening the 5gate/1robo out from scouting this. Just a few HT will tilt this game heavily on Protoss favor imo
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
12-13 minutes seem really late...I feel like Protoss can even tech to get a few HT opening the 5gate/1robo out from scouting this. Just a few HT will tilt this game heavily on Protoss favor imo
If you knew that an all-in was coming at 12-13 minutes, then of course you should tech to colossus or charge/HT. However the problem is that you never know when this type of all-in can come - it can hit as early as the 8 minute mark with 1 thor, and every second between then and 12-13 minutes can be the time when he decides to pull the trigger. It's difficult to decide when might be a good time to invest into tech. So yes - it may be a good idea to tech and make additional probes while you're waiting for the attack to come, but do it slowly and don't do it all at once.
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective.
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something.
I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs.
12-13 minutes seem really late...I feel like Protoss can even tech to get a few HT opening the 5gate/1robo out from scouting this. Just a few HT will tilt this game heavily on Protoss favor imo
If you knew that an all-in was coming at 12-13 minutes, then of course you should tech to colossus or charge/HT. However the problem is that you never know when this type of all-in can come - it can hit as early as the 8 minute mark with 1 thor, and every second between then and 12-13 minutes can be the time when he decides to pull the trigger. It's difficult to decide when might be a good time to invest into tech. So yes - it may be a good idea to tech and make additional probes while you're waiting for the attack to come, but do it slowly and don't do it all at once.
when it comes to 1-1-1 it's' what you scout as you probably know xD...so if you see armory and terran making banshees and then ravens...you can kinda assume the 1-1-1 is not hitting at the earliest time possible but rather a later time
edit: this just comes from personal experience as I've never encountered a fast 1-1-1 push that had a thor+raven+banshee in their composition
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
Thank you!
No idea how you came across that notion heh. Too much Artosis? ^_^
A lot depends on the maps, but bio and mech are definitely both winnable from either side. Personally, I find bio vs mech to be the most skill based and even game out of any Terran matchup, and the one I can consistently win at the most. Also note that bio is in general better in broadcasted games where nerves are higher, as mech requires closer to that 'perfect game' while bio is all about exploiting mistakes. Playing as either side really requires that you read the opponent's mentality correctly and are able to predict when and where he will make certain actions.
If you let the mech player sit eventually they will have a very strong position that you can't break but if you can find weak points early on enough you can disrupt them so they never get that position and are always reacting to your initiative.
Here is one example of my play vs Tarson's mech. This was a pretty simple game without much harassment because he turtled so hard, but that same turtling let me establish a very strong position quite quickly and I still won a head to head fight very handily.
In general, pure bio into air is the best plan against mech, otherwise you just want to be going marine/tank if they are also going marine/tank. Pure bio does not do well vs marine/tank.
On August 22 2012 09:26 Shankapotamus wrote: Hi, in TvP, I've seen GuMiHo try to get his first 5 marines out of his natural before the opponent's stalker gets to his base so he can go around and snipe stuff while the stalker is caught in the middle of the map or at GuMiHo's natural. How can I do this as well? Does he only do it when he scouts a certain something or is it planned as part of his build? I've tried it a couple of times but I have only been able to dodge the stalker if the protoss was killing my ebay at his natural. I also feel like I can't get 5 marines out, only 4. Could you explain to me how GuMiHo does this and the thinking behind it? Thanks!
Do you build a marine after you started your depot ? (18 supply) Also if you 16cc vs cc after 2nd depot you will have a slightly later marine. Those might be missing production times. It also depends on when the Protoss makes their Nexus and whether they chrono the stalker or not. Sometimes you just can't if they want to be aggressive. It shouldn't be your go-to plan but if you see no chronos on gateway and/or very early nexus (around 22 supply for them) you can choose to do it.
For an alternative way you can watch a lot of Alive's games; he's probably the best at it and hits all these crazy timings.
On August 22 2012 11:17 BeJu wrote: Hey man, thanks a lot for doing this!
My question is fairly simple and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been asked yet.
I'm a top diamond Terran that really struggles with TvT. 9/10 times I lost to some form of a 1/1/1 but usually it's the marine tank banshee variation popularized by Puma. I 1 rax FE in TvT and it feels impossible to hold most all-ins. What tips do you have on holding the marine tank banshee all-in (and other allins) with a 1 rax fe? Also, do you think there is a better opening to do in TvT?
Rax CC -> 2x rax -> medivacs is probably the best TvT opener for learning one single build, but it is also the hardest one to master because you can die in so many random ways if your defense isn't near perfect. A much safer opening against almost any 1 base play is Rax cc double gas depot fact port, getting reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, and making marine/tank/viking. To hold the marine/tank/banshee allin, cloak variant, you just need a turret at each min line and viking/rine ready to thwart it, then have your tanks sieged at your bunker when his attack comes while making sure to have scans on hand if he tries to snipe anything with banshees. You will have the position and vision, and he cannot force it. If the non cloak variant, then it's the same thing except it comes earlier so you need to rush siege mode and
On August 22 2012 09:22 Templar. wrote: If you had to tell a player to learn one build order for the tvp + tvz matchups, which ones would you tell them to learn? Preferably something aggressive. (Just starting to play again, was masters level when i quit so my mechanics are generally good.. don't know much for timings anymore though)
TvZ: Ghostking's build vs Nestea that I linked earlier, or Taeja's triple cc hellion banshee that he used vs many players (tl opens vs shine/terious, MLG vs Revival). They are rather similar.
TvP: The Standard rax cc -> 2 rax double gas factory +1 medivac build, with Taeja's tweak of getting the armory when mostway through +1. Look at most of his TvP's for examples.
On August 22 2012 09:14 Qikz wrote: If I'm going mech in TvZ, should I be using vikings or thors to deal with broodlord/corrupter early on? I feel that my vikings always come out too slow to deal with mass corrupter production (maybe I need more starports faster) and thors don't seem to work all that well (although I seem to lose them to other stuff so it might be that).
It's pretty much impossible to beat infestor/bl/corruptor without vikings unless they do not have overseers and you can cloak ghosts and emp/snipe their infestors (with bio naturally). Thors are generally rather bad unless they clump up, which does happen a lot with corruptors, but having 1 or 2 is nice to help vikings kite by providing a threat to chasing corruptors.
MVP and Supernova's mech games vs Vortix are really good demonstrations of how to fight mech vs low-medium infestor - brood counts. In general vs broodlords the only reason you want ground units is to kill their infestor/queen support and maybe land a couple thor volleys on clumped corruptors. You can't really beat critical max infestor/bl/corruptor/queen with anything but viking/raven; ground units just die. Go watch MVP's IEM replays, especially vs Vortix on Ohana on Nerchio on Cloud Kingdom. He just knows when they will transition to BL's, and whether he has a timing or not. If he has no timing to hit pre-brood, he will immediately add more ports and make raven/viking. You can't rely on a 'spot unit' reaction again Zerg. You just have to know, because air transition has ungodly long prep time.
On August 21 2012 12:36 t.Swift wrote: Hey this is a great topic! I think I've hit you on ladder once and got wrecked, but anyway... Tips for holding Blink/Obs all-ins, (particularly common on Antiga or Shakuras) with standard 1 Rax FE or something similar? I always lose to it even when I know it's coming except the games where I'm lucky enough to snipe the Obs, but that's a luxury I think. Stalling for Stim can be really tough without taking a ton of damage. T__T
I wrote something earlier on it. You don't want to rely on sniping the obs, you're right on that. The key is keeping your army alive long enough to get a critical mass while picking off isolated stalkers so he cant get that critical mass where he just blinks on top of you and dies. That means sacrificing scvs and making a lot of marauders. Let the scvs take all the damage, it's ok.
On August 20 2012 22:21 DocHolliday wrote: If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
Many thanks!
The most important thing vs blink obs allins is that you don't let him snipe your stim. This means you need to put extra care to where your tech labbed rax is placed. I think the ideal way to hold it is lifting into the main, but you should always be able to stop it sitting in the natural anyway. You want to add tech labs asap, as marines are not very useful in holding it, and then start your factory when you can. The key way to play it is that you trade scvs for time whenever he blinks in and push him away. You are basically stalling for stim at first, after which you can really punish him if he blinks too aggressively and has no escape. Then you more or less wait around threatening stims (but not actually doing so) until you get medivacs, after which point the game is won. Alternatively, you can try to hold with a bunker in the main and at the nat and scvs pulled wherever necessary. Rain held ddoro's blink allin on Shakuras from MLG Columbus.
Select gets 2 tech labs and rushes conc over stim if he scouts blink fast enough, which can really hurt them if they blink up and walk a bit (you can catch a stalker or two that go in too deep). Sensor tower is also really useful if you managed to hold the first wave (props 2 avilo) which helps you know where to posture your units.
Interesting point about the conc shells. Makes it a lot more awkward for them.
I agree sensor tower is good but only if you went ebay due to fear of DTs. Otherwise it just feels like a resource sink if you have to get ebay and then tower instead of faster medivacs.
On August 29 2012 16:06 Ver wrote: The Parting vs Jjakji from Code S is extremely important watch for Protoss players. Jjakji wins every battle but the last one and loses anyway because Parting throws storms from every angle and just relies on Protoss being more cost efficient. I could try to describe what I mean by staggering templars (as that is the key to getting off storms) but it's better to just watch Parting do it, as he is the master.
I can't find this vod...I searched in GomTV's database and the only time they encountered one another is in the team league and Jjakji won in that game.
What do you think of custom keyboard layouts? I noticed for example that you bind your rax to 7 or 8, so I assume you customized your keys. What do you think of layouts like Darkgrid, Chameleon, the Core, or Artosis's hotkey video from recently?
edit: Do you recommend learning a macro cycle, similar to those described in this thread? I've been considering it for some time, but I want to decide whether I will use a custom keyboard setup first so I don't waste the time training my hands on something I won't use.
On August 23 2012 15:07 Thaniri wrote: In TvZ, or rather, a question that could perhaps become very generalized for all matchups.|
How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well? Specifically for me, TvZ. How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?
I very often net myself various earlier advantages in a matchup, but due to my bad control when it comes to a large scale engagement, I throw away everything I have earned from earlier.
I think they are two key ingredients . Aggressive movement attention/commands goes something like this:
1) Load up send out a drop, waypointed to arrive at around hte time your attack will hit the target area (usually the 4th).
2) Attack move the army to the area, macro a round of units
3) Stim a handful of marine/marauder ahead of the rest of your army, generally around 6 or so units.
4) As you are walking forward into a potential danger area, start pre splitting parts of your army to the left and right then attack moving back to the target, while keeping your advance guard ahead.
5) Once you get to creep scan ahead and have your screen force pick it off. Remember the Zerg can't see where your army actually is, so for all he knows, your screen is right in front of the rest of it.
6) Once you see the location of the Zerg's army, start pre splitting your army a lot more and begin spreading and sieging your tanks, depending on when you think he will attack, and make sure to produce another round of units if the timer is almost up.
7) Once the Zerg attacks, stim, do whatever immediate declumping you need to in order to avoid massive fungals. Then target fire banelings and infestors with tanks while pulling some of your bio back and trying to form a concave over their area of attack. Retarget fire with tanks as needed. When all your bio is spread out enough, then attack move towards his army and focus on spreading individual parts.
A key ingredient of this is watching pro games very closelessly for micro, preferably streams/fpview or the first person in replays, then practicing it in an isolated setting (micro trainers). For an example of the seeing, my TvZ push micro actually improved a lot after two weeks of playing as Zerg only, because I felt what was annoying to play against and what was easy, and so when I went back to Terran,
On August 23 2012 23:48 herMan wrote: This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff.
I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran):
1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac.
2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible.
3) What is you favorite TvT build on Daybreak?
1) bio/medivac/tank or bio/medivac into air both work against mech, it's mostly preference. I think tanks are obnoxious to deal with against mech, as they have air advantage and you have much less opportunity to take advantage of mistakes, but it does make it very awkward for hte mech player at the same time.
2) Try to punish them! DT's cost a lot of gas and many Protoss will try to play greedy after anyway. I think turtling is the wrong option: dts leave the Protoss very weak if it fails. See Marineking vs Huk on Antiga: http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/files/WinterArena.zip
3) 14cc -> 2 rax -> cc (assuming they rax cc/14cc) gas x2 rax ebay 2x fact port fact. If they rax gas or gas first then 3 rax tech as normal.
On August 24 2012 00:27 Tenks wrote: What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP?
It is somewhat a stylistic choice and map dependent but in general you want ghosts sooner than later. You first want your 3rd cc, 5th rax, and double ebay/armory before even considering ghosts. You can't really attack the Protoss beyond a certain point without ghosts, as storm and feedback are just too strong defensively. On the other hand, getting ghosts will limit your mobility and harass potential a good amount, which is why Marineking, an initiative based player, will delay them as long as he can. Usually once you have the above pre reqs and you see templar its worth it to grab the academy and research energy upgrade, but you don't want to start massing ghosts until later on unless you feel the game will be very passive. 4-6 is a good amount for midgame pressure options, as too many will leave you with too small of an army.
On August 24 2012 05:06 terrantosaur wrote: Thanks for doing this thread, it is excellent.
I have a question about TvT (happy to provide replays if necessary but I don't think it is):
I use a build I stole from Ganzi which is basically a 1 rax FE into 3 rax then double gas. He prioritises upgrades so double eng bays follows very soon thereafter. I struggle A LOT vs early siege tank pushes, especially if they have used banshee harrass (there are cloak and non-cloak variants which affect timings slightly). If they keep the banshees alive it is very hard to meet the incoming force in the middle of the map and force repeated sieges to delay his push. So I'm often faced with a siege up outside my natural... So my question: what is the best way to deal with this kind of push? The two choices seem to me to be:
a) use a bunker and missile turret at the front to try to delay with scv repair as necessary as long as possible. If you can keep his vision of the high ground limited to his scans then you probably have time to get out medivacs (maybe...);
b) pull all scvs, wait for any upgrades that are about to finish and then try to bum-rush him... (this hardly ever works).
I've tried adapting the composition slightly by throwing a few marauders into the mix; I've tried stim before combat shield... but often I still lose. I "think" the idea is to somehow hold him off and then go for a base trade using medivacs if you can hold out long enough but I'd welcome the views of an expert. (And of course if there is a replay of a pro game where this happened I'd love to see it...)
Thanks again.
Is this a 1 base tank push or 2 base? Marauders can be very helpful but it really depends on what you are seeing:
Vs 1 base- You need to stall by repairing your bunker long enough for medivacs to come out. Then immediately drop 2 full ones behind his army and cut his reinforcements while floating the factory near his army to know when he unsieges. When both stim/combat are done, you want to pull your nat scvs (or lift into the main if needed), let them take the first tank volley, pre spread your units, and stim forward from 2 sides.
Alternatively you can go for the base trade with a double drop and just delay his push as long as possible by forcing a lot of slow sieges, then bring your army from his main back and converge on his push. This is more questionable if the mains are too far apart though.
Vs 2 base, rax fact port (such as Bomber vs Keen and Jjakji vs Keen in hte recent up/down matches on Cloud Kingdom). This shouldn't be a problem ,just pull scvs and break it when stim finishes. Getting stim before combat shields is obviously important here.
Vs 2 base, 4 rax/2 fact- the key problem here is the double ebay. Double ebay is only possible on a map like Daybreak, though triple cc double ebay is better anyway. There is a reason why the pros don't do double ebay normally: 4 rax/2 fact just smashes it because you have no tanks and it hits before 2/2 is done, and 3/1 cc does well too on smaller maps.
In short, don't double ebay. From what I've seen Ganzi only double ebays when he wants to take a risk or feels the need to. It's not a safe/reliable build.
On August 24 2012 05:23 kollin wrote: Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push?
rax cc 5 rax is basically a coinflip, where if they are greedy you will do grave damage, but if they play safe you are screwed, and you will die to random allins because your stim and tech is so late. Definitely not something you want to be doing all hte time.
3 rax stim factory is a much more robust and reliable opening on every map except maybe close position Entombed.
On August 24 2012 08:59 psy___ wrote: Master terran, I use polt's TvP opening which is a standard 1 rax CC double rax double gas, with 1 techlab and no addons on the other 2 barracks until starport is made with a standard push when 2 medievacs are done.
Btw a tip for terrans is to only put 1 marine in ur bunkers if ur afraid of a 2 base pressure/allin, that way it looks like you have alot more units than you have which might scare the protoss into falling back while if you had all ur untis in the bunkers he could've killed you.
Seems fine, though the danger with having no units in your bunkers is that when the gateway allin comes you can't focus fire the sentries with your bunkers and your main units are too far away to do so. If you cant lower their ff count or knock out guardian shield it becomes much harder to hold.
On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote: Hey Ver,
Do you remember me? We used to talk on battle net about what events you were doing and I would always tell you I was rooting for you?
*fanboy status*
haha.. Well anyways I really wanted to thank you for doing this thread, its a big help to us terran players out there.
I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank. I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
Thanks,
ILuMiNaTe
Yup I remember, thank you!!
There are two main versions to transitioning out of it, and it will also depend on which build you did to get there. In general, the version I feel is best is:
After banshees/3rd cc/ double ebay/stim
1 gas at nat fact lifts off, makes another reactor. 4 rax, including one on the open reactor, then 4th gas. Starport and Fact swap. 5th and 6th gases, armory when needed. 3 more raxes and 1 more fact when money comes in. If muta 2 more facts.
Alternatively some people start on tanks right away instead of a second reactor, but this makes you more turtlish and lets them spread more creep.
On August 24 2012 18:04 ShnAndrei wrote: Hi, I am a former platinum Terran that stopped playing for about 6 months and would like to get back in shape. Was thinking to use the hellion/banshee opening in TvZ, with transition into bio-tank. Could you please recommend me some good replays from which I could learn this build? Thanks in advance!
On August 23 2012 17:32 Teoita wrote: I have a question regarding TvT .
It seems to me (not understaing the mu very well at all) that terrans tend to get their tanks up at seemingly random times, at least to my eyes...sometimes they go for a huge marine ball early on, other times they decided to tech faster, and i don't really understand why. What triggers someone to start teching up to tanks?
It depends on your opening, or more accurately it depends on the interaction between your opening and your opponent's. When opening 1 rax FE → 3 rax you tech Tanks late because you first dump all your gas into bio upgrades then medivacs. When opening 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you tech Tanks straight away if you scout one-base pressure or head for Hellions and/or Banshees first if you plan to mech and your opponent went fast expand too (when playing mech, you try to tech Tanks later so you can have more active units such as Hellions and Banshees pressuring on the map). When opening 1-1-1 against 1 rax FE → 3 rax you usually tech Tanks quickly (e. g. after Marine/Hellion elevator or Banshee) so you can defend while you catch up in bio tech; or you use Tanks agressively for further pressure, etc.
Yup! I also want to add that tanks in small numbers are not particularly useful, and so if you have a choice it's better to get marine/medivac and get out on the map and have some initiative, as you can still spread and beat tanks in small numbers
On August 27 2012 03:51 Striker123 wrote: First of all, thank you very much for creating this thread. My question is regarding 11/11 2 rax. When you do perform this 2 rax push, how many scvs are usually pulled in order make this build effective and be not too all-in(recoverable if the some form of dmg has been done with the initial push)? Also, in terms of transition after 2 rax push is finished, is it better to go fast 3rd cc? Or grab 2nd cc into quick double gas for banshee/helions follow up?
3 scvs for the normal semi-allin version (the 2 producing the rax, and 1 other), 5 scvs if you want to win or die there. See Taeja vs Life on Antiga from TAC, liquid vs Startale LR7. Triple cc is almost always the best followup from any kind of 2 rax.
I have a question about TvP. I am a top diamond player, and I struggle a lot with 1base openings like 4gate robo warp prism, 4gate blink stalker etc, and I'm wondering what's the best response against these kinds of builds? When I spot 1base play doing 1rax FE, I usually just bunker up my nat, but then they just elevator/blink into my main and I'm screwed.
Should I bunker up my main as well? If so, where should I positon my bunkers? And also, when do I get the addons on my barracks, and when do I get up my factory+starport?
Hi I'm a mid platinum Protoss, having trouble with the PvT matchup, I'm not necessarily having trouble with any specific comp or build. I'm having trouble dealing with the harrass Terran can do wether it's an early game banshee, blue flame hellions, or just your standard medivac drop. So my question to you is, what's the best way to help deal with this harrass?
Thanks a lot for the replay tips! I think I will go with MVP's TvZ builds@IEM in which he opened straight into bio, and when I will get to the necessary level of multitasking, I will move on to the hellion-banshee opening.
You wrote earlier, regarding TvT: "A much safer opening against almost any 1 base play is Rax cc double gas depot fact port, getting reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, and making marine/tank/viking."
This seems like an awesome TvT build to try. I always wanted to do a FE but I was afraid of my opponent getting fast tanks with vikings and just stepping over me. But this seems rather safe to try. Could you please point me to a replay in which this was carried out?
P.S. Thanks a lot for this fantastic thread! If every top player shared his tips and secrets with the rest of the community the way you do, we would have faced a whole other level of gameplay and skill on ladder. I think this is the most interresting thread I've ever read on teamliquid.net.
Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries. If it is, are there any specific scenarios where its better than regular bio?
On September 02 2012 05:36 Whatson wrote: Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries. If it is, are there any specific scenarios where its better than regular bio?
Hellion/Marauder is a pressure opening (there are all-ins variations though, especially against Nexus first), you can find a guide here. Usually this kind of pressure build is used in a BoX series because Protoss cannot know for sure what you're up to upon scouting you went 13 gas.
I've been trying to expand my repertoire of cheese (mid masters terran here) and I'd really like to learn how to use the 1-1-1 effectively vs toss (with or without SCV pull and cloak). I'm aware that it was quite an effective strategy vs toss for a long time, but every time I try to execute it I get stopped very easily.
Which build order(s) with cloak and without cloak would you recommend? Any replays you can direct me to? Thanks
What is the best stutter step method? Is it to use the stop command and right click, hold position and right click, or a-move and right click, or stop-command and a-move? Also, what is the best way to learn to perfect it, especially with stimmed marines?
Would you recommand the 10 minute timing attack with marines,hellions,medivacs,combat shield,stim and +1/+1 and followed up by a 3rd base and the transition inot marine,tank as a standard tvz opener for ladder? Or would you recommend to use the hellion and cloak banshee build followed up with a 3rd cc, double upgrades and the transition into marine,tank? Or both as good as the other or would you say that one of those is the better way to go?
On August 27 2012 14:06 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Which way is currently the definitive TvT style? I have not seen very many TvT's lately so I do not really know which styles are popular now. I still play a very outdated marine-tank style.
Also, as a side note, when is God of the Battlefield Part Two coming out?
Foreigners primarily go rax cc 2 rax double gas into medivacs, start tanks, then 3rd cc. Koreans have many different one base gimmick builds but in general almost everyone will transition into marine/tank on 3 base.
On August 28 2012 09:14 NewbieOne wrote: Easier question, I hope: What's with all those CC first TvZ openings at IEM (this), how come the Zergs don't kill them off for that?
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
So a tournament Zerg can be taken for granted to go 15 hatch but what about ladder Zergs? Or is the advantage from going CC first over a one-basing Zerg so high at a certain level of play that a one-base Zerg push will generally not break a CC first Terran?
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
Not even unless. Here is how TaeJa is dealing with 6pool when going cc before rax. It requires great multitasking and knowing some nice spots to hide rax that can block marines. HERE !
Not sure what would happen if zerg would not bring his drones. I guess it is impossible to win. Even wining scv vs lings (not sure if possible also ;D) you would be really behind (scv loss and zerg mining the whole time, next wave of roaches or banes would clear everything out)
Yeah, I know that game, it was lovely! Thanks for bringing it up, it's so uplifting to think about it, lol.
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
So a tournament Zerg can be taken for granted to go 15 hatch but what about ladder Zergs? Or is the advantage from going CC first over a one-basing Zerg so high at a certain level of play that a one-base Zerg push will generally not break a CC first Terran?
On August 28 2012 19:55 blublub wrote:
On August 28 2012 17:37 Teoita wrote: Because unless zergs started 6pooling every game (which means committing to a cheese before scouting the cc), cc first cannot be punished reactively with a standard 15 hatch.
Not even unless. Here is how TaeJa is dealing with 6pool when going cc before rax. It requires great multitasking and knowing some nice spots to hide rax that can block marines. HERE !
Not sure what would happen if zerg would not bring his drones. I guess it is impossible to win. Even wining scv vs lings (not sure if possible also ;D) you would be really behind (scv loss and zerg mining the whole time, next wave of roaches or banes would clear everything out)
Yeah, I know that game, it was lovely! Thanks for bringing it up, it's so uplifting to think about it, lol.
I don't play terran so i might be wrong on this, but opening 6pool is suicide against anything that is not a cc first afaik. A cheesy ladder zerg will more likely roach/bane bust you or something like along those lines. Ver or any other high level terran would have to confirm that.
I am pretty sure that any 1base allin that can punish cc first would have to be done blindly, and i'm pretty sure it would also be bad against anything but cc first and crazy stuff like proxy 11/11. Don't quote me on that though.
6 pool is a really awful opener and should never be used, as in general anything will beat it. I'm pretty sure if you pull scvs early enough and you rax cc you can hold the 6 pool anyway.. 10 pool auto beats cc first and can kill rax cc too if they hide the rax to make the Zerg think it's 2 rax. If they 6 pool and don't bring drones you should be able to just win with scvs while hiding a rax if they kill the ramp rax. If they bring drones you just do that Taeja does.
On August 29 2012 02:42 Teoita wrote: I don't play terran so i might be wrong on this, but opening 6pool is suicide against anything that is not a cc first afaik.
No, 6 pool + drone pull can also win 1 rax FE before second Depot, especially if the Terran built his first two buildings as part of the wall. The Zerg surrounds and attacks your Barracks, preventing your first Marine from escaping, and then all you have left is 15 SCVs and a flying Barracks. I guess you can then react like CC first, i. e. running away with your SCVs and splitting them in order to try to sneak a Barracks/Bunker somewhere to land your CC/OC (don't know if it's better to cancel the OC or not), but now we enter into unexplored areas; the two times I saw this, the Korean Terrans facing this 6-pool all-in tried to fight with 15 SCVs against Zerglings/Drones and of course lost.
From my experience, which might be flawed, as I usually face 6 pool with 14cc more than rax cc, you should be able to pull your scvs when the marine spawns and force the ling/drone off and then be able to surround your marine like you did in bw while making a bunker back in the min line as soon as rax completes, but this might not be reliable.
Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings.
In tvz are you force to do a hellion-banshee pressure?
1. Doesn't work anymore. 2. Doesn't work if they're good. 3. No 4. No. 5. Definitely not. 6. Yes. 7. Yes 8. ....no
Basically after talking about this with Sheth and Suppy, on non cloud kingdom maps your options come down to:
one of the 3 hellion/banshee openings + Forward/proxy 11/11 (3 scvs not super allin). Forward 12/14 is not totally impractical either, though it's questionable if it's as good as the other two.
On Cloud Kingdom where Zerg can't scout you have more options, namely 2 base bio/blue flame timing attacks like what Binski used vs Leenock at MLG on that map, and it makes some of the above a little possible but still not very good if the Zerg plays it a bit safe. The other 2 base timings are also a little more possible because Zerg can't auto beat them by scouting and perfect drone timing but it's still too easy to hold with proper flanks.
On August 29 2012 05:16 Gyro_SC2 wrote: What is the best thing to do (timing, composition) vs a zerg who go 2 base fast infestor when I want to go biotank (I just want to say that I don't mech)?
Macro, more base? Drop ? ghost? big tankrine push?
2 base infestor is a bad build in general. You'll want to make sure to turret the natural though to stop burrowed infestors from walking in because some gimmicky Zergs will try that. You aren't really thinking about this correctly though, as you should already be doing some kind of 2 rax or hellion/banshee opening and jumping up to triple cc.
You can be much more aggressive against 2 base infestor and limit their creep a lot easier, as their army will be weak and they have limited offensive potential. You also want to mix in some marauders into your army composition to sit in the front, tank, and target infestors that walk too far. Ghosts are really only reliable if they go ultras and that's only much later on.
On August 29 2012 17:27 netherDrake wrote: I've just faced a few colossus phoenix builds on the korean ladder (mid-high masters) and I'd like to know what approach you'd use against it.
Here are two questions I have:
1) Would you recommend a 2 prong attack (3-4 medivac drop and another attack with bio+vikings) against phoenix colossus if I manage to deny vision? (since the phoenixes and colossus have to be together or toss risks being overrun by a strong head on attack)
2) Gas spending - would it be better to get my 2/2 faster or focus my gas towards mass vikings? (would the addition of 3 ghosts instead of 4 vikings fare better against such a composition)
I haven't actually played against this style before and it doesn't really see the light in competitive play (if you have any please link me) so any advice would be appreciated.
The way to beat colo/phoenix 100% reliably is turtling until maxed on 3 base with double port viking and getting ghosts. You can get 2/2 and double port viking, those are not mutually exclusive. Don't bother dropping: it's far too risky and little reward, unless he tries some early 2 base allin and you know where his phoenix are.
In that 200 battle you just emp their phoenix and focus fire colo with vikings and they just wasted tons of money for nothing, meaning you win very easily.
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit.
Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
On August 30 2012 17:44 kollin wrote: Ver if I do bombers build in tvp is it better to go 2 reactors 1 tech lab or 2 tech labs 1 reactor. I know most pros go 2 reactors 1 tech lab, but I don't know if my micro is good enough against collosus. So which one should a low level player go?
Most pros, including bomber, go 2 tech labs. 2 reactor is only really good against upgrade based builds and has a definite weakness vs Colossus.
On August 30 2012 19:02 Targe wrote: Hey there Ver, at the moment versus protoss I tend to 1 Rax FE into 2 naked rax and one tech lab however I've seen a variation where you go 2 reactor 1 tech lab and then go for some agression earlier on.
From what I can see the reactors will delay all your tech by 100 gas, so stim becomes later and in turn factories and eventually medivacs (I usually go for a 10 minute push with MMM) however you gain an extra 2 marines per cycle.
Is there anything I've left out that you would be able to point out, and do you think the 2 reactor is worth switching to? (Baring in mind that it's purpose is to put on some aggression before the 10 minute mark)
Thanks if you can help! This is my most feared matchup atm!
I don't think I've ever seen that actually. That doesn't make much sense tbh. Delaying your sitm is never wise and the only value of this would be to coinflip Protosses who are being excessively greedy, which you can do anyway with Demuslims 4 rax combat shield or 5 rax no gas. The normal variation is much stronger, as stim and medivacs are more important. You can't put on aggression before medivacs if the Protoss is not playing greedy.
On August 30 2012 22:50 Vronti wrote: Thanks for this thread Ver, excellent info. I have more generic question about build order in general, specifically in regards to how the different ladders (KR vs EU vs NA etc) function and the players they produce.
I've read quite a bit recently on how the Korean players (and Terrans specifically) are simply on a higher level than the EU and NA Terrans, whereas Protoss and Zerg are a bit more on equal footing (no doubt you saw the thread). Assuming this is true, part of the reason people accounted for the difference was because they were not afraid to do agressive all-in/cheese builds. Now I'm pretty sure that at lower levels trying to macro will get you farther than all-ins or cheese, but at higher levels of the game (I'm gold league, talking about diamond+ here), would mixing in a lot more reactionary styles or all-ins etc help you improve more than just 1 rax FEing or the equivalent every game? When and why do you add in a non-macro game on ladder or in competition?
Korean ladder is better in every way than NA (which has improved a lot) and EU. You actually get garbage TvT practice outside of Korean ladder, as foreigner Terrans don't know how to scv cut. So yes, this is true. The gap between Kor T/Foreigner T and the equivalent from other races is much larger. This is mostly due to Korean Terrans being more willing to coinflip/rely on luck based allins to win, and Terran being so utterly unforgiving. Terran can compete but only if they can go through the game without ever getting behind (which is why Taeja wins). Foreigner Terrans don't have that extreme solidity in their play. In addition, Terran really has only survived until this point by creativity, and Korean Terrans are much more creative than foreigners. Other races don't need to innovate as much, so this effect is less pronounced.
The allins question is difficult q to answer. 1 year ago Terran allins and gimmick builds were incredibly strong and a lot of Terran players were really successful because of it. Now you almost can never win with this kind of play against Zerg and it's much weaker against Protosses too in general. So no, practicing macro builds is the way to go now. It's worth it to practice a couple allins but they also require a lot less practice too, which means most of your time should be on macor builds.
On September 04 2012 00:46 Natespank wrote: Ver could use a few other pros to back him up in this thread, from the look of it so far. Lot of questions.
Sorry this weekend was very busy. Will catch up within the next 2 days!
Korean ladder is better in every way than NA (which has improved a lot) and EU. You actually get garbage TvT practice outside of Korean ladder, as foreigner Terrans don't know how to scv cut. So yes, this is true. The gap between Kor T/Foreigner T and the equivalent from other races is much larger. This is mostly due to Korean Terrans being more willing to coinflip/rely on luck based allins to win, and Terran being so utterly unforgiving. Terran can compete but only if they can go through the game without ever getting behind (which is why Taeja wins). Foreigner Terrans don't have that extreme solidity in their play. In addition, Terran really has only survived until this point by creativity, and Korean Terrans are much more creative than foreigners. Other races don't need to innovate as much, so this effect is less pronounced.
What did you mean by this?
1) Can you give some examples of a proper SCV cut? Is it only a current meta thing, where 1 base openings are prevalent?
2) KOR Terrans are using coinflip builds..... only because Terran it self is unforgiving? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about TvT here.
3) Is there a "science" behind Korean coinflip builds? Why would they take such huge risks like that? Is it because the coin is "weighted," so to speak, in their favor?
Im a Masters Terran struggling with T v T. I often lose games when I mech or face mech. 1) As the meching player, when is a good time to switch to sky terran? - I tend to play too passively and sit around my 4th, only to realise all my tanks are dead weight when BCs and Vikings appear 2) When moving out around 16min (the mid game push), what is a good siege tank count to leave at my 3rd to defend? 3) I've been doing a rather awkward cloak banshee (standard 13 gas timing) into expansion, and I as I get my production started around 8-10 min, I am rather vulunerable to drops - What is a good FE build into mech?
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit.
Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
Impervious, really? I think you've been watching too many day9 vods.
Zerg can open with 7 roach pressure in a given style to DRG. It hits just as your starport finishes (a full minute before your 1st banshee). 7 roach rush shuts down hellion pressure and can kill a lot of SCVs. Zerg can open roach/bane allin and with sheer numbers do unrecoverable damage to your economy. It doesn't matter how well you control (this is how MKP has lost a number of games). The theory that "hellions kill the lings, banshees deal with everything else" is not enough. Terrans can only be "impervious" to Z allins if they a) make a tank, or b) make marauders & bunkers, and c) wall off natural choke with raxx (depot walls don't cut it).
As for Gumiho and his excellent tank build, well... clearly you are convinced that Taeja's way is the only way (again, too many day9 vods?) . They might not have an 80% winrate at the moment, but terrans like Gumiho, MVP, Bomber and MMA show us that passive TvZ openings can work too. Look at how MMA opens with an economy-heavy build, then crushes Violet with beautifully executed drop play and a 2-2 push. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67631/?set=3&lang=
Do you think a Reaper opening (more than 1 Reaper) is viable in TvZ? They could perform mostly the same role as Hellions but have the advantage of jumping cliffs and getting a full scout on what Zerg is doing. Reapers aren't as fast as Speedlings until Nitro Packs but cliff jumping may alleviate this a bit. Since Reapers don't require as many minerals you could still expand early.
Since the first Reaper should show up around 4 minutes (and 4:30 in Zerg's base) you should be able to scout any sort of Roach/Baneling pressure coming.
They do delay tech due to their gas cost so tanks/thors will probably be a bit late. Could Reapers work or would I be better off doing 12/14 rax?
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit.
Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
Impervious, really? I think you've been watching too many day9 vods.
Zerg can open with 7 roach pressure in a given style to DRG. It hits just as your starport finishes (a full minute before your 1st banshee). 7 roach rush shuts down hellion pressure and can kill a lot of SCVs. Zerg can open roach/bane allin and with sheer numbers do unrecoverable damage to your economy. It doesn't matter how well you control (this is how MKP has lost a number of games). The theory that "hellions kill the lings, banshees deal with everything else" is not enough. Terrans can only be "impervious" to Z allins if they a) make a tank, or b) make marauders & bunkers, and c) wall off natural choke with raxx (depot walls don't cut it).
As for Gumiho and his excellent tank build, well... clearly you are convinced that Taeja's way is the only way (again, too many day9 vods?) . They might not have an 80% winrate at the moment, but terrans like Gumiho, MVP, Bomber and MMA show us that passive TvZ openings can work too. Look at how MMA opens with an economy-heavy build, then crushes Violet with beautifully executed drop play and a 2-2 push. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67631/?set=3&lang=
Yes, handling Zerg agression with Hellions and Banshees can be very difficult, but playing triple OC Tanks is basically praying for this agression to come, which is neither good play nor a good way to think. As already stated, there is zero threat associated with fast Tanks, so Zerg is free to do whatever he wants. As a result, you will face 75 drones at the 10' mark, 11 minuts Hive and creep poking your third at the 12' or 13' mark (late Medivacs = no map presence) while you can only max by the 14' mark (any push with 3-4 Tanks before is a huge committment which can easily be crushed reactively by the Zerg if he doesn't already have enough to deal with it—remember how 3 Tanks pushes after Reactor Hellion expands faded away?) and have zero way to know how much army he made yet. By the time you reach his fourth his tier3 will be ready to crush your push and you will be stuck with a CC hopelessly flying above your fourth while waiting the few years it takes for creep to recede.
Why would you make Zerg play so comfortable (I mean, for him it's like playing against a computer for 14 minuts, or at least 10...) while having zero advantage compared to standard openings which do carry threats? Unless you face more agressive openings from Zerg than standard play there is no real reason to use triple OC tanks openings.
On September 04 2012 16:59 Thezzy wrote: Do you think a Reaper opening (more than 1 Reaper) is viable in TvZ? They could perform mostly the same role as Hellions but have the advantage of jumping cliffs and getting a full scout on what Zerg is doing.
No, Reapers are nowhere close to Hellions when it comes to map control. Reapers are terrible against Speedlings and they're way less threatening for the Zerg. And even if you scout some kind of agression coming, you're not even guaranteed to have the tools ready to deal with it since playing without Hellions, Banshees or Tanks makes you vulnerable to various busts.
On August 19 2012 09:23 Ver wrote:Tank openings are not even worth worrying about.
Are you kidding? Tank openings in TvZ are excellent. Gumiho opens with tanks all the time. The build begins with 1 rax double FE, then he adds a 2nd rax, double gas, factory, double engineering bay, then a third rax. @100% factory, techlab, double gas at your natural ---> seige mode and a single hellion into tank #1. If you sense a 2 base roach/bane allin, you can skip the single hellion scout and prepare tank #1, seiged up before roach/banes are ready. Personally I like to wall off my natural with the 3rd orbital and 2 rax. This is one wall banelings will think twice about busting. Tank openings set you up for a strong midgame, either to defend early mining at your third, or to be very aggressive during 1-1.
I'm 1300+ EU master and could post some of my TvZ replays if anyone's interested.
Excellent as in...puts Gumiho far behind every single game the Zerg doesn't blindly allin him? I'm glad you were taking this from a top Terran's games but if you actually look Soulkey played it reasonably well and Gumiho got way behind just from the opening and had to come back from a big deficit.
Hellion/banshee already makes you impervious against the same allins anyway, and actually lets you apply pressure, kill drones, and limit their creep. Any remotely decent Zerg is going to have creep to your ramp on a normal map if you do this because you simply can't attack early enough. If they have creep to your natural that means you have to blind coinflip whether they are hive rushing and what timing and risk losing the game if you push too fast and they maxed on a lair army (marineking vs hyun, entombed, ipl 5 kor regional). Getting behind in TvZ is almost a sure loss against a really solid Zerg (which is why Taeja wins: he never gets behind), and this build will put you behind against every non-allin Zerg build, even 2 hatch muta.
Impervious, really? I think you've been watching too many day9 vods.
Zerg can open with 7 roach pressure in a given style to DRG. It hits just as your starport finishes (a full minute before your 1st banshee). 7 roach rush shuts down hellion pressure and can kill a lot of SCVs. Zerg can open roach/bane allin and with sheer numbers do unrecoverable damage to your economy. It doesn't matter how well you control (this is how MKP has lost a number of games). The theory that "hellions kill the lings, banshees deal with everything else" is not enough. Terrans can only be "impervious" to Z allins if they a) make a tank, or b) make marauders & bunkers, and c) wall off natural choke with raxx (depot walls don't cut it).
As for Gumiho and his excellent tank build, well... clearly you are convinced that Taeja's way is the only way (again, too many day9 vods?) . They might not have an 80% winrate at the moment, but terrans like Gumiho, MVP, Bomber and MMA show us that passive TvZ openings can work too. Look at how MMA opens with an economy-heavy build, then crushes Violet with beautifully executed drop play and a 2-2 push. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67631/?set=3&lang=
Yes, handling Zerg agression with Hellions and Banshees can be very difficult, but playing triple OC Tanks is basically praying for this agression to come, which is neither good play nor a good way to think. As already stated, there is zero threat associated with fast Tanks, so Zerg is free to do whatever he wants. As a result, you will face 75 drones at the 10' mark, 11 minuts Hive and creep poking your third at the 12' or 13' mark (late Medivacs = no map presence) while you can only max by the 14' mark (any push with 3-4 Tanks before is a huge committment which can easily be crushed reactively by the Zerg if he doesn't already have enough to deal with it—remember how 3 Tanks pushes after Reactor Hellion expands faded away?) and have zero way to know how much army he made yet. By the time you reach his fourth his tier3 will be ready to crush your push and you will be stuck with a CC hopelessly flying above your fourth while waiting the few years it takes for creep to recede.
Why would you make Zerg play so comfortable (I mean, for him it's like playing against a computer for 14 minuts, or at least 10...) while having zero advantage compared to standard openings which do carry threats? Unless you face more agressive openings from Zerg than standard play there is no real reason to use triple OC tanks openings.
No, Reapers are nowhere close to Hellions when it comes to map control. Reapers are terrible against Speedlings and they're way less threatening for the Zerg. And even if you scout some kind of agression coming, you're not even guaranteed to have the tools ready to deal with it since playing without Hellions, Banshees or Tanks makes you vulnerable to various busts.
I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you if you opt for an economy-heavy build. I have taken wins from GM zergs with this build. 3OC/tank is working at code S levels of play. It's fairly standard stuff.
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build.
I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro.
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build.
I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro.
The question for me is how long can I keep zerg in the dark about what I'm doing. If Z sees my natural walled off with 3 raxx, Z must prepare at least for the possibility of bio pressure. Z will most likely take gas, upgrade zergling speed, save larvae for zerglings, and try to sack an overlord. If I feel Z is playing too greedy, I can fake pressure with marines & a bunker at his third; even in small numbers, marines trade really well with slow lings. IM_Yoda faked a 3 tank push against Symbol earlier today and I think it too would work great with this build (G2 Ohana). The maps that work best for 3OC tank (Ohana, Entombed, Daybreak) are also perfect for 2rax pressure. How about 2rax pressure ---> QXC bunker ---> 3OC/tank? How about 3OC/tank ---> tank drop the ledge of Z's main on Antiga? And as I said, medivacs give you the mobility to control creep in the midgame.
As you mentioned the "goto" build in tvz right now is the 1 rax fe into reactor hellion into cloak banshee. Is it a must for terrans to cut scvs and marines to get both gases quickly and then build the depot and continue production or is it ok to first build the depot and continue production and then add the 2 gas? With the later version the first 2 hellions will pop out at 6:35, but i feel more safe against the initial 6 lings since you cut your marine production really long with the first version.
Another question. How many banshees and hellions do you build, when you want to transition into marine tank? Is there a "standard" number or do you do it when you think your pressure isn´t going to work anymore? I heard about 8 hellions and 3 banshees somewhere on reddit, what´s with this number?
And last. What is the normal way to transition into marine,tank,medivac? Do you build your CC, then double gas, then double ebay + tl on rax, then start all 3 upgrades, then adding additional barracks? When is the correct time to begin tank production inbetween them? Do you allways use the tl from the starport to transition? Can you advice with some good replays where the transition is nicely done?
Ver, you've mentioned that something which makes Korean Terrans so dangerous is their ability to all-in -- something that a few other notable posters have said as well. Do you have any nice all-in builds you could recommend to us?
Thank you for making this thread, the wealth of knowledge in such a small thread is something i'm sure we all appreciate.
I'm struggling vs protoss.
I always 1 rax FE, into a +1, stim 2 medivac push (no additional add-ons until I push out) I understand the difference between adding on 2 additional rax or going for my 3rd cc. I understand that if he goes collosus, you should have an opportunity to drop somewhere with the first push. HT, not so much.
What is the primary objective of this 'push out' ? To secure your third? To actually do damage? Don't I have to be the aggressor?
If I just go home and macro, I would say 99% of my games end in 1 way, 1 large battle and usually the toss steam rolls me (I'm mid diamond, my micro is at best average in large engagements). Even if I try to emp as much as I can, I just get destroyed with the additional warp ins of charge lots or any left over HT which turned into archons.
Rather than going into the analysis on why I get rolled late game, I'd rather ultilize my skills (decent multitasker and able to do multi- pronged attacks) with better mid-game agression.
Is there a build, which allows me to apply a much stronger mid-game pressure?
Is a 3 rax before expo pressure considered all in? What about the 3 hellion drop? (too gimmicky?) 1-1-1 with cloak banshee? (that's a 1-base all in technically right?)
Are there any decent 2-base allin? I'm looking for strong mid-game final blow. Since I lose late game all the time, if it's all-in that's not much of a worry for me.
I always lose late game and rather than dealing with it, I'd rather just avoid it. I know that's not ideal, but it is what it is.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: Thank you for making this thread, the wealth of knowledge in such a small thread is something i'm sure we all appreciate.
I'm struggling vs protoss.
I always 1 rax FE, into a +1, stim 2 medivac push (no additional add-ons until I push out)
You should make add-ons #2 and #3 when you make your Starport at the latest.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: What is the primary objective of this 'push out' ?
To keep the Protoss player modest, to prevent his third from going up too fast and to scout his army composition / tech path. Opportunities to end the game right there should never happen in an even game; whenever you deal heavy damage you can be sure the Protoss failed something or was too ambitious / used a bad build. Basically this push acts as a soft contain.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: Is a 3 rax before expo pressure considered all in?
It's not all-in, but like many pressure builds the game will often come down to whatever happened with your pressure move. You should move out at 5'20 with 10 Marines; pull 2 SCVs for standard pressure (to attempt to Bunker his expand), more if you want to commit. Your expand should be made around this time too, between 5'20 and 5'45. You will be able to kill the Nexus if the Protoss didn't play safe enough, i. e. Nexus before Core, or Robo before Gates #2 & #3, or too many Chronoboosts on Probes and not on Warpgate, etc., or alternatively if he went Sentries as his first units. If he goes Zealot Stalker Stalker with enough Chronoboosts to have a 3 Stalkers warp-in ready when you reach his natural, you will be thwarted. I play 3 rax expand a lot so if you're interested in more details (follow-ups, common threats, etc.), I can provide them.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: What about the 3 hellion drop? (too gimmicky?)
Again it comes down to how much damage you do with that Hellion drop (and Marines if you used them offensively too). Common follow-ups are 3-1-1 all-in, or simple expand, or double expand. Be careful if you expand, you want 1-2 Bunkers ready or you may die to a random proxy Pylon as you will only have Marines to defend Stalkers.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: 1-1-1 with cloak banshee? (that's a 1-base all in technically right?)
You can also play double expand behind it with 2-3 Tanks to defend while you tech bio, Taeja does this sometimes (e. g. Taeja vs Harstem on Metropolis @ ASUS ROG Summer).
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: Are there any decent 2-base allin?
Well, there are 2-bases version of the Marines/Tanks/Banshees (with bio tech) all-in, or Marines/Thors/Banshees builds à la JJakji, but to be honest if Protoss scouts right I don't see them working reliably. Another option is to go standard 1 rax FE → 3 rax medivacs → 5 rax and to just pull SCVs at some point like Mvp does sometimes (e. g. Mvp vs Feast on Entombed Valley @ IEM Cologne), but again it should not work against a Protoss player properly scouting your lack of third and thus not trying to take a third base.
On September 05 2012 22:51 RefusedAmen wrote: If I just go home and macro, I would say 99% of my games end in 1 way, 1 large battle and usually the toss steam rolls me (I'm mid diamond, my micro is at best average in large engagements). Even if I try to emp as much as I can, I just get destroyed with the additional warp ins of charge lots or any left over HT which turned into archons.
I know you didn't want advice about late game tvp, but it's something you need to learn. It's kind of simple actually -- bio steamrolls gateway units so hard it's not even fair. The problem is colossus and storm -- if you let the protoss get off 1 good storm, you basically lose. Make sure you get cloak and about 10 ghosts -- if he's splitting templar, use snipe; if his templar are clumped then use EMP. If you don't have 3 vikings/colossus, you lose. In general, I like to have 4 medivac, 10 viking, and 10 ghost, since most protoss get 3 colossus and then switch to templar tech.
Also, in terms of when terran can be aggressive -- I think terran starts to have an advantage from the 10min, peaks around terran's 160 supply (when protoss starts to tech switch to templar), then starts to even out after that (as charge/blink/storm finishes). I like to be aggressive as much as possible before templar tech comes out, because once storm finishes, it's so so hard attacking into them.
On August 31 2012 14:08 Shankapotamus wrote: When I try to play mech TvZ, I keep getting counterattacked by his whole army, his roach army is so much faster than my mech and i can't catch up. I even tried blocking off paths with PFs but since he has his whole army 1a'ing all over the place, i have no idea what i can do to win. How do i kill the zerg without dying to nonstop counterattacks with his whole army?
You have three deterrents to stop them from doing this:
1) Banshees. If he doesn't make muta or corruptor he can't effectively kill them, meaning if he attacks he has to tank a lot of fire. This is why you keep making them like MVP has shown.
2) Sensor towers and scouting units/scans to know that he is doing this and seeing where his army is. Remember if you see his army on a map like Daybreak, meet it partway and force him to retreat, then just 1a after it, it will take him far too long to circle all the way around the map and counter.
3) Hellion counters. The most effective measure yet hardest to grasp/execute. Whenever they send out their roaches that means they don't have anything left at home to stop hellions from decimating all the drones. Here's a tourney game from the tespa csl lan as an example:
Although my opening this game was poor and I got far behind, I managed to make an enormous comeback using this same philosophy. Every time he moved out with roaches my hellions counterattacked, sometimes via runby and sometimes by drop.
On September 01 2012 22:59 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: Cool thread idea!!
How should you handle a base race situation? Should you keep attacking their base, or come back and try to salvage some of your own??
Too vague to really answer....depends so much on matchup/situation. There is a certain logic to base trades but it's tricky to learn if you don't play them regularly. In general though you want to commit enough to disable their production, then try to save your own if you have a lead.
On September 01 2012 23:11 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: Having a lot of trouble vs Ling/ Infestor....Any suggestions? Thanks again
If you are 100% sure your opponent will go ling infestor you can do MVPDream's blueflame/bio (with heavy marauder emphasis) which simply shreds it. Look at his games vs Golden and Sleep from GESL and other Zergs in Spring Arena. In general ling/infestor has severe issues with a screen of 6-8 marine/marauder in front of your army, and cannot handle large numbers of medivacs whatsoever. You can push a lot faster against pure ling/infestor than other comps if you are diligent about stimming a small number ahead and pre spreading behind.
Lastly if you do go tanks, make sure to target fire infestors in every battle. See Flash vs Soulkey on Antiga from the KESPA Invitational at MLG Anaheim for a strong example of this.
On September 01 2012 22:59 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: What builds do you recommend in the current metagame for each Match Up?
TvZ:
Taeja's triple cc -> hellion/banshee or Ghostking's 14cc hellion/banshee he used vs nestea
TvT:
Rax CC/14cc into 2 rax tech to medivac. Vs another rax cc, triple cc.
TvP:
Taeja's rax cc 2 rax double gas to medivac with a faster than normal armory
On September 01 2012 23:12 NiNjAPlation wrote: Hi I'm a mid platinum Protoss, having trouble with the PvT matchup, I'm not necessarily having trouble with any specific comp or build. I'm having trouble dealing with the harrass Terran can do wether it's an early game banshee, blue flame hellions, or just your standard medivac drop. So my question to you is, what's the best way to help deal with this harrass?
Best way to handle the harass is just become comfortable facing it and know beforehand what you need to do. When a pro gets harassed like that he never gets flustered, he just plays on through predeveloped patterns.
Vs Banshee- 3 Stalker/1 obs at each min line, positioned along the main safe aerial entrance to min line to intercept any banshees. Vs hellions- Proper building placement to form walls and make it difficult to run around, and warp in stalkers when needed. Stalkers/cannons in min line stop it very easily. Vs Drops- Make multiple observers and patrol them along the likely drop paths, making sure you always know where they come. 1-2 Templar + blink stalkers at the important spots will nullify any drop.
On September 02 2012 02:16 ShnAndrei wrote: @Ver
Thanks a lot for the replay tips! I think I will go with MVP's TvZ builds@IEM in which he opened straight into bio, and when I will get to the necessary level of multitasking, I will move on to the hellion-banshee opening.
You wrote earlier, regarding TvT: "A much safer opening against almost any 1 base play is Rax cc double gas depot fact port, getting reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, and making marine/tank/viking."
This seems like an awesome TvT build to try. I always wanted to do a FE but I was afraid of my opponent getting fast tanks with vikings and just stepping over me. But this seems rather safe to try. Could you please point me to a replay in which this was carried out?
P.S. Thanks a lot for this fantastic thread! If every top player shared his tips and secrets with the rest of the community the way you do, we would have faced a whole other level of gameplay and skill on ladder. I think this is the most interresting thread I've ever read on teamliquid.net.
I'm glad you like it iirc Kas used it against MVP on Entombed Valley in IEM group stages, however he did a weird transition and blew his lead.
On September 02 2012 05:36 Whatson wrote: Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries. If it is, are there any specific scenarios where its better than regular bio?
On September 02 2012 05:36 Whatson wrote: Is marauder hellion actually a viable unit composition in the early game TvP? I know in theory the hellions can kill the zealots so the marauders can kill the stalkers/sentries. If it is, are there any specific scenarios where its better than regular bio?
Hellion/Marauder is a pressure opening (there are all-ins variations though, especially against Nexus first), you can find a guide here. Usually this kind of pressure build is used in a BoX series because Protoss cannot know for sure what you're up to upon scouting you went 13 gas.
Yeah it only works in small numbers as a way to coinflip greedy expansion builds because of how fast hellions reinforce. In the midgame it's poor efficiency is not worth any tradeoff.
On September 02 2012 06:41 dOraWa wrote: I've been trying to expand my repertoire of cheese (mid masters terran here) and I'd really like to learn how to use the 1-1-1 effectively vs toss (with or without SCV pull and cloak). I'm aware that it was quite an effective strategy vs toss for a long time, but every time I try to execute it I get stopped very easily.
Which build order(s) with cloak and without cloak would you recommend? Any replays you can direct me to? Thanks
On September 02 2012 08:11 Jermman wrote: The 1-1-1 is mostly figured out by protoss these days (as far as I know). Correct me if im wrong ver.
Yup! Way too easy to stop so long as the Protoss doesn't take banshee damage and properly stalls/flanks the eventual attack. I highly recommend not learning this build.
On September 02 2012 14:22 Natespank wrote: What is the best stutter step method? Is it to use the stop command and right click, hold position and right click, or a-move and right click, or stop-command and a-move? Also, what is the best way to learn to perfect it, especially with stimmed marines?
I personally alternate between right click and hold pos or attack move, depending on how I want my units to move/what formation to take. However as I have no experimented with the others I cannot make claims of their validity or not.
Best way to learn to perfect it is to watch vods of the best players with this, probably MKP, to see exactly what it looks like. Then you want to just practice reaching his level in micro trainers, first getting the timing right, then practicing that timing over and over until it's subconscious. Finally you want to bring that into your real games with the focus of that game on not winning but simply microing correctly.
On September 02 2012 20:44 Sianos wrote: Would you recommand the 10 minute timing attack with marines,hellions,medivacs,combat shield,stim and +1/+1 and followed up by a 3rd base and the transition inot marine,tank as a standard tvz opener for ladder? Or would you recommend to use the hellion and cloak banshee build followed up with a 3rd cc, double upgrades and the transition into marine,tank? Or both as good as the other or would you say that one of those is the better way to go?
The hellion/banshee/3 cc is far better without question, as in it will place you in a good position even if the Zerg knows it is coming and knows how to play against it.
The marine/hellion/medivac attack with +1 attack (the general pro perception is that +1 armor delays the timing too much) will beat a lot of people who don't know how to react to it but once you get to a higher level it will flop badly. My ex-teammate Mystik (who hadn't played for a month) easily beat Illusion 2-0 at WCS NA who did the two versions of this build, because Mystik knew how to stop it and I don't think it's possible to execute it much better than Illusion did. If you want to practice it you can, as it is easier to execute, but obviously for the long term it is much worse.
Korean ladder is better in every way than NA (which has improved a lot) and EU. You actually get garbage TvT practice outside of Korean ladder, as foreigner Terrans don't know how to scv cut. So yes, this is true. The gap between Kor T/Foreigner T and the equivalent from other races is much larger. This is mostly due to Korean Terrans being more willing to coinflip/rely on luck based allins to win, and Terran being so utterly unforgiving. Terran can compete but only if they can go through the game without ever getting behind (which is why Taeja wins). Foreigner Terrans don't have that extreme solidity in their play. In addition, Terran really has only survived until this point by creativity, and Korean Terrans are much more creative than foreigners. Other races don't need to innovate as much, so this effect is less pronounced.
What did you mean by this?
1) Can you give some examples of a proper SCV cut? Is it only a current meta thing, where 1 base openings are prevalent?
2) KOR Terrans are using coinflip builds..... only because Terran it self is unforgiving? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about TvT here.
3) Is there a "science" behind Korean coinflip builds? Why would they take such huge risks like that? Is it because the coin is "weighted," so to speak, in their favor?
NA 1200 master Terran TT
PS I love this thread btw :D
1. Sorry for not being more precise: I meant in 2 base scenarios or with quick triple cc where people will halt scv production for 1-2 rounds at a time to get your 4th/5th rax quicker. In TvT before a large number of tanks are in play having a few more marines is a lot more important than more scvs. Some Korean Terrans on ladder will do this to an excessive degree, and if you don't cut some as well they'll just 1a through you if you opened similar builds.
In general you can only use 44 scvs to mine on 2 bases and a couple more to build, so it's more important to cut scvs beyond that point to get your 3rd cc, 4th/5th raxes, and 2nd factory faster as the scvs don't provide a benefit until several minutes later.
2. If Koreans win with coinflips they don't have to play normal games where the unforgiveness of Terran is so prominent. On the contrary it's very unforgiving to play against Terran allins.
3. It's not a science. It's partially weighted, but it's also not a coinflip if the opponent doesn't know how to react properly. It's much easier to learn how to beat a macro, reactionary build, with a very narrow and precise timing than doing the former and being able to handle every kind of attack. So Kor T's will get lots of free wins taking advantage of people who have not perfected their builds in all matchups.
On September 04 2012 14:58 ThaSlayer wrote: Im a Masters Terran struggling with T v T. I often lose games when I mech or face mech. 1) As the meching player, when is a good time to switch to sky terran? - I tend to play too passively and sit around my 4th, only to realise all my tanks are dead weight when BCs and Vikings appear 2) When moving out around 16min (the mid game push), what is a good siege tank count to leave at my 3rd to defend? 3) I've been doing a rather awkward cloak banshee (standard 13 gas timing) into expansion, and I as I get my production started around 8-10 min, I am rather vulunerable to drops - What is a good FE build into mech?
Thanks!
1. I don't actually think you want to go battlecruisers unless you have an overwhelming lead and they are going air too or you have an econ lead and they are going bio/tank. You want to try to kill/cripple with a tank army, as tanks beat bio too cost effectively in high numbers better than BCs do.
2. 1-2 at most. Leaving units behind vs mech is actually really bad because otherwise it's too easy to get a giant flank and kill the depleted mech army in the open. It's better to be very proactive about scouting with hellions sensor towers and scans to find out if they are going to backstab and go kill that initially, then move on their weakened army.
3. Many openings work: something that involves hellion/banshee is ideal to give you some control and harass potential (such as rax cc into reactor hellion banshee cloak). It makes it a lot harder to play vs mech if you constantly have to worry about hellion backstabs. Getting +1 attack early is crucial for mech: + armor is best saved for when your position is more stabilized and you have enough tanks.
On September 01 2012 11:13 Natespank wrote: Hello Ver,
What do you think of custom keyboard layouts? I noticed for example that you bind your rax to 7 or 8, so I assume you customized your keys. What do you think of layouts like Darkgrid, Chameleon, the Core, or Artosis's hotkey video from recently?
edit: Do you recommend learning a macro cycle, similar to those described in this thread? I've been considering it for some time, but I want to decide whether I will use a custom keyboard setup first so I don't waste the time training my hands on something I won't use.
Honestly I never put any thought into this and have a mostly standard key setup with the exception of some area hotkeys rebinded. A flexible macro cycle is good because it will let you train unconsciously easier, but at the same time it's not necessary. It's more important I think to watch fpviews in stream or replay of top T pro's to see how they do it, as there are some tricky things you need to learn, such as not macroing while kiting TvP, and how to prequeue units before an engagement.
On September 01 2012 09:59 dynwar7 wrote: Thank you very much Ver for the help.
I know you have lots of questions in this thread and you are busy, but I apologize, please allow me toask 2-3 more questions.
1. Wel, other than that youtube link, is it possible if you upload 2 or 3 replays of you going mech vs bio?
2. I absolutely love ghosts, the reason I play terran. What do you say about using nukes vs tank lines?
I guess that is all. No rush! Thanks again for your help Ver, you are Very Very nice :D
1) Yeah. These are all old games cause I can't find any ladder ones recently but they use the same formula. + Show Spoiler [Reps] +
2. Yeah this is possible, especially with bio vs mech as you can take advantage of their unsiege more directly. I suggest watching bomber vs sjow on testbug from MLG Raleigh 2011.Normally it's more important to get air first but this is an option if you can use it to take a strong position.
On September 01 2012 22:26 Rabiatic wrote: Hey, thanks for doing this Q/A!
I have a question about TvP. I am a top diamond player, and I struggle a lot with 1base openings like 4gate robo warp prism, 4gate blink stalker etc, and I'm wondering what's the best response against these kinds of builds? When I spot 1base play doing 1rax FE, I usually just bunker up my nat, but then they just elevator/blink into my main and I'm screwed.
Should I bunker up my main as well? If so, where should I positon my bunkers? And also, when do I get the addons on my barracks, and when do I get up my factory+starport?
1 base allins can be divided into 1 gas and 2 gas, which is something you can see. Of course they can wait to chase your scv out with a stalker and then plant a 2nd gas but that will delay the allin and make it easier to hold regardless. The list is quite vast and it's pretty close to impossible to be 100% prepared against every one on most maps, making it possible for much worse Protoss players to blind coinflip even the best, though their winrate will be very low. Off the top of my head with vods for how to stop it ->
1 gas-
4 gate (620) -> make more than 1 bunker, bring scvs to nat to mass repair 4 gate warp prism (625-640) -> noblesse vs arcanne, terminus, iron squid regionals 3 gate void w/ zealots -> mma vs hongun, entombed/antiga, recent gsl.
2 gas-
blink obs (745-815~) -> discussed earlier. drewbie vs ddoro, daybreak, NA invite only qualifiers for winter arena. dt (715) -> turret or save scan Delayed 4 gate (can happen anytime with more sentries) dt warp prism (dts slightly later, warp prism a min later) -> white ra vs me, dual sight, mlg orlando Immortal (8-9, not sure exactly) -> Marineking vs Parting, Dual Sight, MLG Arena (not an allin variant, but shows the best way to handle it) Colo (9-930, not sure exactly) Warp prism ramp block (830~) -> wbc vs puma, shakuras, mlg raleigh 2011
I truly honor you for this thread, Ver. Really. With the advice you gave me in just 3 days I made it to platinum, now I'm rank 13 and I'm really close to making it to diamond. I really feel that my mechanics, builds, and just overall mechanics are better than before, and I feel more competitive as the opponents are getting better as well. Getting really close to diamond, and trying my best to improve as much as I can before placement happens again, I want to ask a few questions. 1. This doesn't really have to do with Terran that much, but maybe Terran specific advice could be given. How much of a gap is it from platinum to diamond? Are diamond players' mechanics much better, or are they not too hard of a leap from platinum to diamond? Are the builds they do much faster too? Do they max out much faster than high platinums, and just pay attention to everything a lot better? 2. Sometimes if there is a rush that the other player does, or just something happens that makes me stockpile on 1000+ minerals that I can't really spend, what am I going to be spending it on? I always think that if I make too much more barracks, starports, or factories, that when the surplus of minerals are gone, that's too much production for me, and that I can't get enough minerals to make as much units as the production facilities can hold. I think that it's much better if I expand instead, so that I can get more scvs and have a better economy going, but I always wonder to myself if it's a good idea to get the expansion, because the only reason I'm getting it is because I have a surplus of minerals, and I may not be able to defend the expansion or maybe I should have spend the minerals on production facilities instead. Does the early, mid, or late game come into play when it comes to this situation? Like, if I'm in the early game, I should expand so that I can get better macro going, or mid game, I should get more barracks because I have a decent economy already, or is it more of a "what's better in this situation" kind of thing?
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build.
I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro.
The question for me is how long can I keep zerg in the dark about what I'm doing. If Z sees my natural walled off with 3 raxx, Z must prepare at least for the possibility of bio pressure. Z will most likely take gas, upgrade zergling speed, save larvae for zerglings, and try to sack an overlord. If I feel Z is playing too greedy, I can fake pressure with marines & a bunker at his third; even in small numbers, marines trade really well with slow lings. IM_Yoda faked a 3 tank push against Symbol earlier today and I think it too would work great with this build (G2 Ohana). The maps that work best for 3OC tank (Ohana, Entombed, Daybreak) are also perfect for 2rax pressure. How about 2rax pressure ---> QXC bunker ---> 3OC/tank? How about 3OC/tank ---> tank drop the ledge of Z's main on Antiga? And as I said, medivacs give you the mobility to control creep in the midgame.
Dwf already covered almost everything so I'll just mention a few points:
-The Yoda/MMA games are irrelevant because the Zergs in question had 2010 level creep spread. You can't fake any kind of pressure when creep is at your watchtower.
-"faking pressure" with marines/bunker at his 3rd does absolutely nothing, as he just pulls his new queens and kills it before the bunker ever gets up.
-Zergs can't be kept in the dark except on cloud kingdom. If they see 3 cc and siege tanks, or even a tech labbed fact alone, all they have to do is take a really fast 4th hatch at a 4th, drone uninterrupted to 85-90, and rush the fastest possible hive. By the time the push reaches a dangerous area after clearing acres of creep they will already be producing their hive unit of choice (or done) and have thousands of minerals in the bank to use however they want. Although the build order is different, the creep spread weaker, and the game prepatch, heavenslight vs select from lonestarclash is a similar example of what happens vs these passive builds.
-Sadly Zerg is ridiculous enough that even the triple cc tank almost auto loses to certain coinflips, namely the slayers 1 or 0 queen baneling bust that hits before 550 and suffers severe damage vs the DRG 630 35-40 ling raid. Reactor hellion holds vs either.
-While early roach attacks can coinflip reactor hellion banshee builds in certain spwans/bunker placements, I've found they also can be mitigated. I've gotten a relatively even position vs Violet and Suppy who tried early roach timings on close Antiga/cross Entombed respectively. The key is to make 2 extra orbitals asap and use your cloaked banshees to deny his 3rd. That way he's stuck on 2 bases until he can get mutas, while you can replenish the scv deficit with 4 OC on 3 bases.
The other option is to make a marauder from the tech labbed rax, make the tech lab on the port on its own, and hold the ramp/bunker area with the marauder wailing on the roaches. See MKP vs Symbol, Antiga, MLG Anaheim.
-No idea what day9 has to do with anything, as I haven't watched him since BW, but Taeja is the only Terran in the world who reliably enters the midgame from an even or superior position against every Zerg he's played regardless of what they do (unlike Gumiho), so it's clear he's doing something right nobody else is.
On September 05 2012 03:24 Sianos wrote: As you mentioned the "goto" build in tvz right now is the 1 rax fe into reactor hellion into cloak banshee. Is it a must for terrans to cut scvs and marines to get both gases quickly and then build the depot and continue production or is it ok to first build the depot and continue production and then add the 2 gas? With the later version the first 2 hellions will pop out at 6:35, but i feel more safe against the initial 6 lings since you cut your marine production really long with the first version.
Another question. How many banshees and hellions do you build, when you want to transition into marine tank? Is there a "standard" number or do you do it when you think your pressure isn´t going to work anymore? I heard about 8 hellions and 3 banshees somewhere on reddit, what´s with this number?
And last. What is the normal way to transition into marine,tank,medivac? Do you build your CC, then double gas, then double ebay + tl on rax, then start all 3 upgrades, then adding additional barracks? When is the correct time to begin tank production inbetween them? Do you allways use the tl from the starport to transition? Can you advice with some good replays where the transition is nicely done?
You don't need to double gas before depot, except if they do gas before pool. Taeja often will make 3 cc's before any gas if he spots no gas from the Zerg.
6 hellion/2 banshee is the standard due to trade offs in either direction, but as it is the standard, Zergs will be more prepared for it. 8/3 will let you bully the standard 6 queens around and delay creep considerably, but will set back your initial move out with marine/medivac a bit. 4/2 or 4/1 is mostly there to catch the Zerg off guard with a really early 11-12 min pressure but isn't the most reliable.
If the Zerg hasn't taken a third by 7 mins or so and you don't see a third hatch, you can't make more than 6/2 due to the threat of 2 base muta allin and you need to prioritize retaining everything (Life/Keen, TSL, Cloud Kingdom).
Yes you start 3rd cc/upgrades first, then add more barracks. You make tanks when you can, basically. They can be delayed or rushed, depending on how aggressive you want to be. Using the tech lab on starport for the fact is generally a good idea, yes. The rax should make its own earlier.
Taeja vs Shine from TLopen on Antiga is a good example replay.
On September 05 2012 07:51 happyft wrote: Ver, you've mentioned that something which makes Korean Terrans so dangerous is their ability to all-in -- something that a few other notable posters have said as well. Do you have any nice all-in builds you could recommend to us?
TvZ: Proxy 11/11, pull 3 scvs or 5. (Taeja vs Life Antiga, TAC; Keen vs Life on Ohana, TSL.) TvT: cloak banshee into marine tank allin (polt vs mvp, dual sight, gstl) TvP: - gas rax reactor hellion marauder (mkp/killer,mlg anaheim, antiga) -11/11 or 12/14, with 1 rax hidden (Alive, MLG Columbus, Daybreak games in particular, and Alive/Parting on Metro from IPL 4). -Proxy hellion drop (MKP/PArting, Antiga, GSL; Taeja/Finale, TL open, Antiga).
On September 06 2012 10:38 Absurd Bunny wrote: I truly honor you for this thread, Ver. Really. With the advice you gave me in just 3 days I made it to platinum, now I'm rank 13 and I'm really close to making it to diamond. I really feel that my mechanics, builds, and just overall mechanics are better than before, and I feel more competitive as the opponents are getting better as well. Getting really close to diamond, and trying my best to improve as much as I can before placement happens again, I want to ask a few questions. 1. This doesn't really have to do with Terran that much, but maybe Terran specific advice could be given. How much of a gap is it from platinum to diamond? Are diamond players' mechanics much better, or are they not too hard of a leap from platinum to diamond? Are the builds they do much faster too? Do they max out much faster than high platinums, and just pay attention to everything a lot better? 2. Sometimes if there is a rush that the other player does, or just something happens that makes me stockpile on 1000+ minerals that I can't really spend, what am I going to be spending it on? I always think that if I make too much more barracks, starports, or factories, that when the surplus of minerals are gone, that's too much production for me, and that I can't get enough minerals to make as much units as the production facilities can hold. I think that it's much better if I expand instead, so that I can get more scvs and have a better economy going, but I always wonder to myself if it's a good idea to get the expansion, because the only reason I'm getting it is because I have a surplus of minerals, and I may not be able to defend the expansion or maybe I should have spend the minerals on production facilities instead. Does the early, mid, or late game come into play when it comes to this situation? Like, if I'm in the early game, I should expand so that I can get better macro going, or mid game, I should get more barracks because I have a decent economy already, or is it more of a "what's better in this situation" kind of thing?
1. I'm glad you've gained so much from it! Honestly I have no idea; I've never played below masters. However, if this is anything but idle curiosity, you should not be thinking about trivialities like this. Your own worth or skill is not determined by those around or, or at least it is detrimental to think in such a way. Best focus on only yourself, and you'll grow in ranks naturally without much effort.
2. This really depends, but in general you should do the build in the order that you went in the game planning on it even if you have excess money. But in general, adding a 3rd cc is a good idea if you're floating that much unless your opponent is doing a dedicated 1 base allin that you don't feel you can hold the next wave of.
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build.
I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro.
The question for me is how long can I keep zerg in the dark about what I'm doing. If Z sees my natural walled off with 3 raxx, Z must prepare at least for the possibility of bio pressure. Z will most likely take gas, upgrade zergling speed, save larvae for zerglings, and try to sack an overlord. If I feel Z is playing too greedy, I can fake pressure with marines & a bunker at his third; even in small numbers, marines trade really well with slow lings. IM_Yoda faked a 3 tank push against Symbol earlier today and I think it too would work great with this build (G2 Ohana). The maps that work best for 3OC tank (Ohana, Entombed, Daybreak) are also perfect for 2rax pressure. How about 2rax pressure ---> QXC bunker ---> 3OC/tank? How about 3OC/tank ---> tank drop the ledge of Z's main on Antiga? And as I said, medivacs give you the mobility to control creep in the midgame.
Tank dropping the ledge itself doesn't let you get in range of much, and also if you don't have a large army, queens are pretty good at breaking this. Anyway, I just wanted to expand on the 3 oc tanks.
I've seen Guhimo do it on Daybreak, go cc first into 3rd cc before gas tanks. Because his CC go down so quickly, he's able to have the normal 14 minute move out by before 12 minutes, equal upgrades and lots of tanks. Given that there's almost no chance you'll have to fight hive tech here, and instead all the money Zerg was banking turns into banelings/ling to hold this, do you think this is more viable (as compared to a less greedy triple CC tank build)? Even assuming your opponent plays as greedy as possible, you'll be fighting lair tech with a huge 2/2 1/0 marine maruder tank medivac army.
If not all maps, at least specific to Daybreak where the 4th base should be pretty close and such a greedy opener is safer then on other maps?
Edit: this also assumes you don't die to an ultra fast bling bust too, as I concede the hellions are needed to defend those (but also those take a quicker gas that your scouting scv should be able to see, right?).
Hey! this isn't a super specific question to Terran but when I'm playing TvZ I have a lot of probelms with "crisis management"
I'm usually opening the pretty common 1 rax expand into cloaked banshees+hellions into third base then going mech. A lot of Zergs go for Roaches, Lings and Banes and try to bust me and regardless of how well I hold it puts the game on a completely different track than I'm used to and I often end up playing very scrappy, having a weird mineral:gas ration, not being able to support the production I have and so on. I find the same thing happens with drop play, I can hold it off decently but my timings get thrown out of the window from my attacks being delayed, buildings being sniped etc.
I think a lot of people get the same issues in ZvP/TvP where they're harassed by Dark Templar or a surprise warp-in. But whenever I see the top players such as MKP or Stephano play they seem to be able to manage the situation really smoothly even if they're completely unprepared.
Do you have any advice for getting better in situations you're not really used to being in or does it just improve from more practice?
On September 05 2012 01:29 SHODAN wrote: I'll try to explain the strategy behind triple OC tanks, and economy-heavy builds in general. Early tanks allow you to play as economy-heavy as possible. It lets you take a faster 3rd OC, faster 3rd and 4th gas, and faster upgrades (double engi bay at 6:50). Your early tank count then allows you to land your third much faster (9:30 mark), take the 5th and 6th gas faster, start 2-2 much faster. By 11:00 you will have 1 viking and 2 medivacs. After the viking has finished clearing nearby overlords, you use it as a spotter to track the location of his army. 2 medivacs and 16 supply of bio can freely clear up creep, then lift-off when you're in danger. This also opens up the threat of drops, whether you choose to commit to them or not. At the 13:30 mark, you will be at 180 supply, 6-7 tanks, 4 medivacs, 2-2 finished, 10 naked raxx, 1 with a techlab (only add reactors after you start 3-3). You attack at 2-2, shut down Z's fourth if it exists, trade well with his army and keep trading... I don't rely on gimmicky shit to get an early advantage over zerg. I try to outplay Z in the midgame with core units, drops, and tank lines. Z can safely make 75 drones no matter what opening you do. What really matters is gas, and Z can never have more gas than you with an economy-heavy build.
I know perfectly well both the reasoning and the benchmarks since, as stated some pages ago, I used to play this kind of build. Of course Zerg will reach 75 drones, that's not the point—the question is how much time until he gets that, and how much he has to dedicate to his defence. With triple OC tanks answers are “as fast as possible” and “zero,” which is not good since both creep and Zerg economy are exponential. You might not like Hellions/Banshees openings but at least they don't allow Zergs to reach 3-bases saturation uncontested. Zergs have to be careful against Hellion openings, they have to get Spores against Banshees follows-ups, they can't just sit at the edge of the creep with their extra Queens and allocate all their energy to new Creep Tumors. There's no doubt you hit a powerful 200 2/2 max army by the 14' mark, but it doesn't matter since creep prevents you from using it to its full potency, thus allowing the Zerg to welcome you with unchallenged BLs or 5/3 Ultralisks. Not saying this build will auto-lose but Zergs should definitely have the advantage against it should they go standard macro.
The question for me is how long can I keep zerg in the dark about what I'm doing. If Z sees my natural walled off with 3 raxx, Z must prepare at least for the possibility of bio pressure. Z will most likely take gas, upgrade zergling speed, save larvae for zerglings, and try to sack an overlord. If I feel Z is playing too greedy, I can fake pressure with marines & a bunker at his third; even in small numbers, marines trade really well with slow lings. IM_Yoda faked a 3 tank push against Symbol earlier today and I think it too would work great with this build (G2 Ohana). The maps that work best for 3OC tank (Ohana, Entombed, Daybreak) are also perfect for 2rax pressure. How about 2rax pressure ---> QXC bunker ---> 3OC/tank? How about 3OC/tank ---> tank drop the ledge of Z's main on Antiga? And as I said, medivacs give you the mobility to control creep in the midgame.
Tank dropping the ledge itself doesn't let you get in range of much, and also if you don't have a large army, queens are pretty good at breaking this. Anyway, I just wanted to expand on the 3 oc tanks.
I've seen Guhimo do it on Daybreak, go cc first into 3rd cc before gas tanks. Because his CC go down so quickly, he's able to have the normal 14 minute move out by before 12 minutes, equal upgrades and lots of tanks. Given that there's almost no chance you'll have to fight hive tech here, and instead all the money Zerg was banking turns into banelings/ling to hold this, do you think this is more viable (as compared to a less greedy triple CC tank build)? Even assuming your opponent plays as greedy as possible, you'll be fighting lair tech with a huge 2/2 1/0 marine maruder tank medivac army.
If not all maps, at least specific to Daybreak where the 4th base should be pretty close and such a greedy opener is safer then on other maps?
Edit: this also assumes you don't die to an ultra fast bling bust too, as I concede the hellions are needed to defend those (but also those take a quicker gas that your scouting scv should be able to see, right?).
MMA somtimes tank drops on Antiga off of a 1 rax gasless FE. Last time I saw it (S3 Code A) he elevator'd 1 SCV, some marines, and made a bunker in Z's main under cover of tank fire. Pretty cool harass. Bunker usually gets in range of a spawning pool or evo chamber and marines can poke in and out. I'm not sure how it would work with 3OCs though...
Daybreak I started taking the fourth as you mention, and I wall off the choke to my "third" with 4 depots incase of runbys. It's so easy to defend the forward third with tanks because you have xel'naga tower vision. Daybreak is one of those maps where you can get a really solid wall at your natural with only 2 raxx and a forward orbital (once you figure out the layout), and there's that little nook on the high ground for tank fire. The downside to Daybreak is that there is no ramp to Z's nat for a QXC bunker (yeah, I swear by QXC bunkers. I don't know why it was just a fad. No QXC bunker is like not sending your first 2 dragoons to harass terran's bunker in BW!).
I'm sure you'll have your eye on Gumiho next week in GSL, but if you haven't heard, he started streaming on youtube and he does this 3OC tank build all the time:
Hey I have been having problems with TvZ a lot lately and only seem to win against lesser opponents or with blind luck (zerg doesn't scout).
I have attempted the hellion / banshee opening into fast 3rd, but seems like when zerg scout's this they either do all-in (don't have tanks up and even with banshee defending I lose so many scv's) or they go fast muta (against I lose good amount of svc's).
I was thinking maybe forgo the hellion's in order to get faster siege tanks? I am also not that great with hellion's and they never really seem to do much of anything.
Currently I go marine tank in the mid-game and add in marauders and vikings in late game.
Idk I am so lost against Zerg right now - my mmr is high diamond/low masters, I seem to get all-in'ed a lot by Zerg right now - Zerg it seems goes either all-in super aggressive or super greedy and seems coin flip sometimes on what they are doing. Is there a good scout timing / scan timing I should use?
On September 07 2012 23:26 Eshez wrote: Hey! this isn't a super specific question to Terran but when I'm playing TvZ I have a lot of probelms with "crisis management"
I'm usually opening the pretty common 1 rax expand into cloaked banshees+hellions into third base then going mech. A lot of Zergs go for Roaches, Lings and Banes and try to bust me and regardless of how well I hold it puts the game on a completely different track than I'm used to and I often end up playing very scrappy, having a weird mineral:gas ration, not being able to support the production I have and so on. I find the same thing happens with drop play, I can hold it off decently but my timings get thrown out of the window from my attacks being delayed, buildings being sniped etc.
I think a lot of people get the same issues in ZvP/TvP where they're harassed by Dark Templar or a surprise warp-in. But whenever I see the top players such as MKP or Stephano play they seem to be able to manage the situation really smoothly even if they're completely unprepared.
Do you have any advice for getting better in situations you're not really used to being in or does it just improve from more practice?
You have to get caught off guard more. Be able to deal with the unexpected by playing against the unexpected
On September 08 2012 03:26 JIJI_ wrote: Hey I have been having problems with TvZ a lot lately and only seem to win against lesser opponents or with blind luck (zerg doesn't scout).
I have attempted the hellion / banshee opening into fast 3rd, but seems like when zerg scout's this they either do all-in (don't have tanks up and even with banshee defending I lose so many scv's) or they go fast muta (against I lose good amount of svc's).
I was thinking maybe forgo the hellion's in order to get faster siege tanks? I am also not that great with hellion's and they never really seem to do much of anything.
Currently I go marine tank in the mid-game and add in marauders and vikings in late game.
Idk I am so lost against Zerg right now - my mmr is high diamond/low masters, I seem to get all-in'ed a lot by Zerg right now - Zerg it seems goes either all-in super aggressive or super greedy and seems coin flip sometimes on what they are doing. Is there a good scout timing / scan timing I should use?
Thanks.
No don't forgo hellions to get faster tanks. You need to copy the progamer build EXACTLY; don't make changes on your own volition. If you want to do the tank thing you need to do gumiho's build listed. It's really inferior but is much easier to play as well. Hellion/banshee is unfortunately quite difficult to execute, harder than any other opening. Even a top level Terran needs a lot of practice with the build to get the execute good. I highly suggest you go through the build over and over on a map alone until you can macro right and control things a bit better.
Hellion/banshee is really the only build that 'prevents' the coinflip (if they defend perfectly you can get slightly behind vs 3 base full saturation but it will hold allins). If you are miscontrolling your hellions and losing them poorly, then that obviously is going to wreck the foundation of the build. You should generally (map dependent) never scan the Zerg before 13-14 minutes because you desperately need those mules. Rest assured you can hold all the allins: your hellions provide the early warning signal and give you time to react appropriately. If you are really afraid of them you can do the double gas before second depot (after cc) version which gives you the best defense, though weakest econ. I suggest taking scvs off gas once the fact/reactor are started for a certain period, as you get more gas than you can use.
Hellions do several things with this build:
1) Snipe off outlying tumors, control the watchtowers, and limit info for the Zerg. Zergs hate playing against Hellion/banshee because it keeps them in the dark for so long and that is the one thing Zergs feel very uncomfortable with. 2) Prevent queens from camping the edge of the creep and spreading creep too fast by threatening runbys. If the Zerg does not block runbys they will lose far too many drones normally. Only attempt runbys with 4+ hellions, and keep your hellions out of sight range and zoom in and out instead of camping them at the edge. Uncertainty for the Zerg is what you want. 3) Defend against any zergling aggression. You have to be able to micro/kite properly to do this and you cannot lose them carelessly.
It seems to me that gasless builds are simply bad in TvT. How can you stop a gas first banshee from getting 10+ kills? Banshee has more range than marines and is faster, so you will only kill it if your opponent is shit. And if you need to make engieering bay and 3+ turrets wouldn't you just have been better off going for a quick viking?
Also, holding off a 1/1/1 tank push after losing 10 marines to a banshee and not having stim yet? Not to mention gas first builds are so versatile you could lose to so many things. Marine/helion elevator, reactor helion, or cloak/non cloak banshee.
IIRC, MKP said you simply cant go 1 rax expo in TvT anymore, yet your guide says either 14 cc or 1 rax cc? 14 CC? how in the hell do you stop a gas first banshee with 14 cc????
On September 08 2012 09:12 xrapture wrote: It seems to me that gasless builds are simply bad in TvT. How can you stop a gas first banshee from getting 10+ kills? Banshee has more range than marines and is faster, so you will only kill it if your opponent is shit. And if you need to make engieering bay and 3+ turrets wouldn't you just have been better off going for a quick viking?
Also, holding off a 1/1/1 tank push after losing 10 marines to a banshee and not having stim yet? Not to mention gas first builds are so versatile you could lose to so many things. Marine/helion elevator, reactor helion, or cloak/non cloak banshee.
IIRC, MKP said you simply cant go 1 rax expo in TvT anymore, yet your guide says either 14 cc or 1 rax cc? 14 CC? how in the hell do you stop a gas first banshee with 14 cc????
Why would a gas first banshee ever get 10 kills? When he comes with a banshee you don't just blindly 1a after it and let him kite you perfectly in a rhythm. Instead you form a perpendicular line to get the maximum firing power and when you think he's going to fire and pull back, you retreat instead of walking forward so he whiffs. By doing this right if he's going to get shots off he's going to take hits as well. As for marine tank banshee allins, you usually want to get stim first so you have flexibility, and take a faster gas than normal in order to get stim/combat asap. Usually you can stall long enough with bunkers to get stim/combat and set up a beast flank.Elevators shouldn't be a problem, as you can hold them either by stopping the unload or just pulling scvs and attack moving. Reactor hellion is pointless so long as you get a bunker up in time.
The only time you should have problems holding gas first/rax gas builds is if your scan sees nothing. Proxies can be threatening if you don't know which one it is. Interesting that mkp said that. Do you know where? One base TvT is a reflection of the Korean approach to the game, but it's not as if they don't rax cc as well.
On September 08 2012 09:12 xrapture wrote: Not to mention gas first builds are so versatile you could lose to so many things. Marine/helion elevator, reactor helion, or cloak/non cloak banshee.
Remember that some gas first builds have only one Marine for a long time, so sacrificing your scouting SCV (don't harass the building worker so you don't get hit!) may give you total intel if your opponent doesn't have perfect Marine micro. Even if he denies your SCV with a single Marine, you know he made an add-on. Kas even did a funny thing against me on ladder: I was going gas first Marine/Hellion elevator, and after scouting I went gas first he rallied his first Marine (he was going 1 rax FE) to my base while keeping his scouting SCV outside, then he moved both in my base so I was unable to deny scouting with my single Marine. Had there been a second Marine, he would have known I was likely going for some kind of Banshee play, either Cloak one or a sub-optimal Cloak-less version not making the TL with the Barracks. There is still a slight possibility of Marine/Hellion elevator without Reactor on the Barracks, but a scan should take care of any of your doubts and your Marines should be placed in your main anyway against both possibilities (Banshee or elevator).
On September 08 2012 09:12 xrapture wrote: IIRC, MKP said you simply cant go 1 rax expo in TvT anymore, yet your guide says either 14 cc or 1 rax cc? 14 CC? how in the hell do you stop a gas first banshee with 14 cc????
It's true that 1 rax → 3 rax can easily die to a lot of agressive play if you don't react properly, but you can still go 1 rax → 1-1-1 if you want to be safe and comfortable against 1-1-1 pressure with Marines/Tanks/Vikings; then you can switch to Marines/Tanks or mech.
14CC is not slower than 1 rax FE so you should be able to deal with gas first Banshee just fine using proper Marine micro.
On September 08 2012 03:26 JIJI_ wrote: Hey I have been having problems with TvZ a lot lately and only seem to win against lesser opponents or with blind luck (zerg doesn't scout).
I have attempted the hellion / banshee opening into fast 3rd, but seems like when zerg scout's this they either do all-in (don't have tanks up and even with banshee defending I lose so many scv's) or they go fast muta (against I lose good amount of svc's).
I was thinking maybe forgo the hellion's in order to get faster siege tanks? I am also not that great with hellion's and they never really seem to do much of anything.
Currently I go marine tank in the mid-game and add in marauders and vikings in late game.
Idk I am so lost against Zerg right now - my mmr is high diamond/low masters, I seem to get all-in'ed a lot by Zerg right now - Zerg it seems goes either all-in super aggressive or super greedy and seems coin flip sometimes on what they are doing. Is there a good scout timing / scan timing I should use?
Thanks.
No don't forgo hellions to get faster tanks. You need to copy the progamer build EXACTLY; don't make changes on your own volition. If you want to do the tank thing you need to do gumiho's build listed. It's really inferior but is much easier to play as well. Hellion/banshee is unfortunately quite difficult to execute, harder than any other opening. Even a top level Terran needs a lot of practice with the build to get the execute good. I highly suggest you go through the build over and over on a map alone until you can macro right and control things a bit better.
Hellion/banshee is really the only build that 'prevents' the coinflip (if they defend perfectly you can get slightly behind vs 3 base full saturation but it will hold allins). If you are miscontrolling your hellions and losing them poorly, then that obviously is going to wreck the foundation of the build. You should generally (map dependent) never scan the Zerg before 13-14 minutes because you desperately need those mules. Rest assured you can hold all the allins: your hellions provide the early warning signal and give you time to react appropriately. If you are really afraid of them you can do the double gas before second depot (after cc) version which gives you the best defense, though weakest econ. I suggest taking scvs off gas once the fact/reactor are started for a certain period, as you get more gas than you can use.
Hellions do several things with this build:
1) Snipe off outlying tumors, control the watchtowers, and limit info for the Zerg. Zergs hate playing against Hellion/banshee because it keeps them in the dark for so long and that is the one thing Zergs feel very uncomfortable with. 2) Prevent queens from camping the edge of the creep and spreading creep too fast by threatening runbys. If the Zerg does not block runbys they will lose far too many drones normally. Only attempt runbys with 4+ hellions, and keep your hellions out of sight range and zoom in and out instead of camping them at the edge. Uncertainty for the Zerg is what you want. 3) Defend against any zergling aggression. You have to be able to micro/kite properly to do this and you cannot lose them carelessly.
If this build is hard to execute even by high level terrans, what about the lower level terrans? What should they do if they don't have the necessary micro/multitasking? Also, what if the zerg gets roaches, and your hellions run-bies are useless? How can you stop the creep spread then, and how can you prevent him from building a huge roach army in the midgame, while you lost so much time teching and going for hellions and banshees, which roaches hard counter? Is this the only way against zerg for lower level terrans (platinum and below) also?
I personally like macroing more than microing, and when I do this build, I feel I'm missing so many things I could have done better with other builds (macro-wise). I would like to do a 2 rax opening, maybe with one of them proxied, so that it wouldn't be that allinish. Do you think that would be a good idea? And if so, are there any good builds for this atm? Being platinum, I try not to make my own builds, as I think it would be a loss of time, having to change them every time I meet a better opponent on ladder. So I'd preffer a build that has been tested to the highest of levels.
I used to like the way Nada made his own builds with such simple, clean compositions, yet such great effectiveness. It would be a shame if the 2 rax opening will not work anymore. I feel like the game has been narrowed down significantly lately.
On September 08 2012 19:39 ShnAndrei wrote: If this build is hard to execute even by high level terrans, what about the lower level terrans? What should they do if they don't have the necessary micro/multitasking?
Bear in mind that your opponents won't have the necessary multitasking to keep up with your agression too. Low level Zergs already miss their injects when nothing happens, so matters will be worse when there's action going on. Over time, you will improve your multitasking trying to do this kind of opening, even if you will undoubtedbly fail a lot at first.
On September 08 2012 19:39 ShnAndrei wrote: Also, what if the zerg gets roaches, and your hellions run-bies are useless?
Could you be more specific? When does your opponent get Roaches? Did he take a third?
On September 08 2012 19:39 ShnAndrei wrote: How can you stop the creep spread then
You won't be able to stop creep spread after some point, there's only a window in which Hellions/Banshees can delay/prevent it. If Roaches are out you can still prevent them from chasing your Hellions and force them to retreat with Banshees but once Zerg hits Lair he will simply bring his Queens with an Overseer to fend them off.
On September 08 2012 19:39 ShnAndrei wrote: , and how can you prevent him from building a huge roach army in the midgame, while you lost so much time teching and going for hellions and banshees, which roaches hard counter?
Unless you went mech, you don't care about them massing Roaches since Marines/Tanks have no troubles beating pure Roach. You don't lose that much time going Hellions/Banshees (6/2 being standard) as you search Stim, +1/+1 and build several Barracks right after your third. If you find yourself in difficulty against mass Roaches it's most likely because you're late on the follow-up.
On September 08 2012 19:39 ShnAndrei wrote: I personally like macroing more than microing, and when I do this build, I feel I'm missing so many things I could have done better with other builds (macro-wise). I would like to do a 2 rax opening, maybe with one of them proxied, so that it wouldn't be that allinish. Do you think that would be a good idea? And if so, are there any good builds for this atm? Being platinum, I try not to make my own builds, as I think it would be a loss of time, having to change them every time I meet a better opponent on ladder. So I'd preffer a build that has been tested to the highest of levels.
I used to like the way Nada made his own builds with such simple, clean compositions, yet such great effectiveness. It would be a shame if the 2 rax opening will not work anymore. I feel like the game has been narrowed down significantly lately.
Yes 12/14 is still viable on some maps, but you should at least build both rax on your natural's ramp so they're closer to the opponent's base. Rather than trying to get a Bunker in front of the Hatchery (which is impossible with a 12/14 against a Zerg properly reacting), I aim at setting a Bunker contain at the bottom of the ramp so that he can't take a fast third (on maps with rocks leading to the third such as Ohana and Entombed Valley I build another Bunker near the rocks). Meanwhile, even if the Bunker contain attempt fails, I double expand, then get dual gas and Hellions (often 2 fact BFH) with a 100% Barracks wall on the natural (if your initial Marines got killed by Zerglings you will have to close first, but if you didn't commit you can delay additional Barracks to close your natural's ramp, thus getting faster gas). This way, Baneling busts are easily dealt with as it takes 13 Banelings to destroy a Barracks, then another 5 to kill the Bunker behind it, and you still have Marines and Hellions defending behind this. I move out with Marines and Hellions to pressure before going standard Marines/Tanks.
About the ladder mappool, I often 2 rax on Ohana, Entombed Valley (with rax on the natural or slightly outside the Tower's range), Antiga and Shakuras. On Daybreak you would have to proxy and commit; don't know much about TDA and Condemned as I have both of them vetoed; on CK I never 2 rax because your Marine retreat path happens to be the way Drones go when mineral walking, so I find it too awkward to 2 rax on this map.
I often open with 1 rax expo into adding 2 additional rax, getting medivacs, then adding tanks in TvT (standard marine tank, basically) My troubles comes when my opponent does an early push with a lot of hellions and ~4-5 tanks, I seem to just get decimated. How do I hold something like this? (last time this happened I looked at the replay and they opened reactor hellion expand, into banshee, into 4 fact, 2 reactor/2 tech lab hellion tank) and they just basically attack moved into me and I died. If I survive, I have too little left/they have too good of a defensive position for me to deny a third which leads to the eventuality of me dying. Horribly.
Could you give me some examples of games you have had where you go mech (what they opened with, what you opened with [bio or bio tank]), how you transitioned into fighting the mech army and winning the game? Do you sometimes transition into mech yourself after opening with 3 rax bio?
I've beaten Fuzzy with mech after killing tons of drones. Brood lords arent an issue if you just go mass thor viking. You just need to drop a scan/scout for broods then throw down some starports asap and make vikings. I generally don't make too many tanks even if I see mass roach and instead use banshees, the few tanks I have, and hellions to buffer against the roaches. I would say mech is in a much better position to deal with zerg T3 than bio.
As for hellion banshee in tvz, how do you feel about adding a raven first? In case the followup is marine tank, it feels kind of a waste to invest in cloak since youre not making a lot of banshees.
On the other hand having a raven there frees up the need to scan to kill tumors and gives you a pdd. Maybe even some potential for turret/seeker missile harrass in the mineral line?
I've heard that it is very important to view the replays of the games that I lost. Is that true? Do you spend more time wathing replays (including replays of other progamers) than playing? I'm a begginer in Starcraft II.
I'd have to agree, gasless expand's in tvt are giving the advantage to the player that does go gas first. 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee pushes are very punishing to gasless expands, you can even all in with it and pull scvs if you really want to push your luck or if your opponent is opening thorzain fast shields style.
After watching MMA vs MVP in GSL....I think that bio needs to play close to perfect to beat mech.
In addition to that, I need to change my strategy if I face marine/tank player....obviously many more marines than marauders.
I just want one build (for my low level diamond play for now)so.....if I go bio, it will be hard vs mech AND marine tank....if I go marine tank, it will be easy vs bio, but here are my questions:
1.What do you say about marine/tank beating mech? Is it possible? If yes, is it extremely tough? I think its good because oyu have your own tanks to hold lines and your marines can be aggressive everywhere here and there, and they can even stim in when their tanks are unsieged. what do you say?
2. or.......I have no option but to go mech, so I dont need to worry whether my opponent goes marine tank or bio..
Ver, thank you for your kind answer. It reflects credit on what you said that what you give to it is what you get from it. If you don't mind, I'd ask some more stuff in connection but please note that if you can't or don't feel like devoting the time (it's quite long), then that's okay, I wouldn't like to abuse your courtesy or take up too much of your time. I'll spoilerise the more potentially personal stuff to avoid forcing it on anybody else. Writing more at length in order to avoid being ambiguous.
On August 29 2012 16:06 Ver wrote: Thank you for the kind words
Likewise.
So, I'd have a question concerning TvZ and TvP mostly but also to some extent TvT. A bit in line with what I asked and you replied re: Thorzain's TvT:
1) Thorzain's TvT build works perfectly fine in TvP as it is just an optimization of the standard opening. I think he began using it in both matchups at the same time. It is bad in TvZ because it fits in the 'scoutable 2 base timing attack' mold which auto loses to any competent Zerg.
Could you recommend a newbie-friendly mental checklist of sorts to make an approximate decision that a certain build designed to work against one race could work against another and be worth testing out? I'm mostly thinking about TvP <=> TvZ transferrability here (because I see TvT as being more different) but yeah, also TvT <=> TvX in some situations. Like here, with Thorzain TvT, I knew it relied on getting a bunch of marines like it's generally good to have in TvP, similar medivac timing as in some TvP, having 1-2 tanks isn't bad, just old style, so I thought I'd ask you about it to make sure it's worth trying. So, I see you confirming it through extensive knowledge (Thorzain used it in both matchups at the same time) + game-sense (a streamlined classification of the build as being effectively a somewhat optimised standard opening in light of the million other builds). I don't have comparable knowledge, obviously, but are there some identifiable clues (e.g. focal points) you could name that a player newer to the game should still be able to identify if he's aware of what he's looking for?
3) If you want a bludgeon type marine/thor/hellion build, I highly suggest the build Marineking has used on Metropolis (and entombed) in his TvZs in the past 3 months (from KSL finals vs curious is one example). This build feels gimmicky though when I've used it because if they just turtle bl/infestor/queen you can't really break them and you have barely 1 timing attack before they have broods. On a larger map you don't have even that, and when broods are out your chances of winning goes down drastically unless they commit too early instead of turtling for critical mass.
Yes, my point with that BO/unit mix/overall gameplan is either to gimp the Zerg to the point of making his further growth manageable (enabling me to outmacro him), or if he opts for non-aggression but can't really be attacked himself either without making it too much of a gamble, then outrace him to the point that when he gets out that first round of broodlords two minutes after his hive, at which point I'm likely already maxed, 3/3 and pushing, he still can't compete with my army/econ. According to Day9, hive should come about 17 minutes plus one minute per each push, maybe 15 if he gets totally a free hand with everything. Then greater spire takes 100 seconds and a broodlord takes 40. By that time (including the lean 17 minutes timing to first broodlords) I'm probably maxed on 3/3 and ready to take a late third or even fourth behind the push/defence (so this is very similar to a 2-base all-in or at least a 2-base timing push).
Then, if I get caught up in fighting somewhere en route to whatever I want destroyed, I simply get myself more factories (deeming it safer than a risky tech switch to ports, vikings and air upgrades), more bases to support them (basically planting expos everywhere, cancelling or flying away if needed, defending if expedient, PFs if having gas and not needing to reinforce or build factories), farm plenty of SCVs to be able to drag about 20 or more with each subsequent major push, mules if SCVs (and hellions) die but I'd still like to push on to cash in on the opportunity to win outright or do substantial damage. I use hellions to fry broodlings or zerglings (sitting behind thors in such a situation), make some crowd (to avoid concave/numbers problems) or otherwise deal as much splash damage as possible (kinda like in TvP people use them against packs of immortals) and be a filler when the mass of thors is not critical (enough), upping or reducing the number of hellions vis-a-vis thors as necessary in light of my approximation of what seems better in the current situation (or how much gas I have, TBH, sometimes).
If I end up with excess minerals but can't spare the gas for more factories due to the constant production of thors, which I don't want to interrupt for even a second (unless I'm really forced to base-camp), and expanding isn't really possible or viable ATM (or there is still a surplus of minerals anyway),then I get some raxes and marines to pull marine packs behind the mech pushes to use them for appropriate task, to phase out the hellions if the marines seem to work out better, but mostly to just remax faster (esp. vs Zerg's remaxing potential) and to be able to keep drilling.
So this is the reason why I don't get the ports: they'd interrupt and disturb my comfortable rhythm (with the 150/100 apiece plus addons plus upgrades), delay my favourite timings, take away some windows of opportunity I'm used to (not enough stuff to push with/defend a counterpush or expand), add some windows to the Zerg (esp. when I don't have the same defensive strength due to getting the air at the time, or forcing me to reveal too much to him), force me to use unupgraded stuff (whereas any effectiveness this build has hinges on the synergy of upgrades) etc. but most of all delaying me to the point that the Zerg will be able to farm more broodlords than I want him to have (and I want to kill or cripple him preferably when he has already committed funds but still can't reap the full benefit of his investment). I'd only really go for ports if I ended up with a massive gas bank, which would be extremely rare. I'd basically never really have the window to start making ports and vikings anyway with the mentality of this build.
Using this game plan I very rarely fall to broodlords if at all (I can think of about 1 situation of losing a game in consequence of losing a major engagement featuring broodlords). That would generally require a massive blunder from me (basically one where I'm dead anyway; used to include failure to bring enough repair along, failure to bring more assist along or make it survive, failure to reinforce sufficiently fast but these have all been worked out eventually) or a massively good move from the Zerg (but I've yet to see more than a dozen broodlords alive and in one pack with this type of drilling), usually connected to him outmacroing me rather than anything to do with the engagement itself (so I'm likely similarly dead anyway), as he can't really afford to be herding big packs of broodlords at the edge of the map.
So... is it likely that on higher levels, where both the Zerg and I (will) have better/more fluid skills, better control, faster execution, better scouting, more game-sense and more active or at least properly responsive way of playing, the Zerg will easily negate this strategy? As in my game plan here having a lower skill cap than whatever the Zerg would or could use to counter it? Or relying too much on windows of opportunity that only the less skilled Zerg players create but not the more skilled ones (assuming the Zerg is not significantly more skilled than the Terran)?
Also, could I make a TvP build out of this one, with some modifications but using the same principles?
4) I have been in a somewhat similar position, as I am going for my phd while playing competitively. This really depends on what level you want to get to.
I don't really have a specific level to get to as in this or that league or tournament scene level but in WC3: TFT I was at the point where I was several ladder levels under the top 1000 of the Europe server (I was level 26). A person even registering for tournaments with any credibility would still win a convincing majority of games through mechanics/general dexterity (including a guy I'd coached), although I could still be the more experienced player, which could show in some situations ("don't quit! this 2v2 can still be won if we..."). New rising talents would be somewhat scared of me, more than needed, but they'd invariably have overlapped me after a while of getting coached by the gosus from the best clans. Any ladder game would be a likely win if dragged beyond 17-20 and especially 40 minutes, let alone 1 hour, most deaths being mid-game doom pushes playing up to situational racial/map strengths. The difference from real gosus was that they had more production within the same time-frame when freestyling.
Most of all that I miss from my current skill level in SC2 vis-a-vis how things were in WC3 is that in WC3 I could do all the cute things like teleporting through every expansion on the map using spy critters previously planted as decoys, militia-teleporting to help a besieged ally after losing all our armies in a battle just before, or militia defence of a base with 3/3 militia (as the side effect of 3/3 melee upgrades) and a couple of support casters alone, going without barracks when feeling like it (e.g. a totally caster only composition), beating a numerically superior army off of sheer micro (when being tired and getting sloppy with production timings, punishing the other guy for making more melee units than he could manage or benefit from having), killing a night elf base with his entire army in it with 60-80 gyrocopters in an FFA, gimping an opponent early game by killing/denying his supply buildings for a prolonged time (I guess this is similar to pylon busting with early marauders when you add on more stuff but leave his workers alone unless they're making more pylons, so as not to free up supply for him), dedicated main hall busting, or delaying your own production a bit to scout and guess the other guy and only then come up with a massively bad situational counter, having like 4 hotkeyed research buildings, and other such stuff that was supposedly not doable or few people ever thought about doing.
I'd basically like to get to the same "level" in SC2, not necessarily higher than it but not really stopping there on purpose, either. And yeah, analogies to the examples I gave above are obviously impossible in SC2 or involve a different race than Terran but they are just examples and I'm only talking about the ability to do that type of stuff and get away with it, i.e. not be forevered tied up in the same old low league due to the resulting high loss ratio when things don't work out. So, playing convincingly with one's own ideas (as opposed to only copying popular builds), being able to adapt the game to one's own style (like Goody did), losing to relatively few people in the local scene (e.g. a European country or a state in the USA), even when still being around 50% on the MMR-based ladder because there is, after all, still a crowd of better players continent-wide. From that point, I could perhaps sit down and decide if I wanted to take it further and commit seriously (depending on my family or job situation etc.) or keep playing like this with only the improvement that comes as a side effect of playing or watching more games and reading discussions on the forums.
Does this modify your advice in any way?
The most important thing is to watch enough games that you know what to do and to play a little bit every day or 5-6 days a week so you can keep your skill. I have been forced to take a month or two off at a time due to school and my skill level plummets when I do; it takes another month or two to get back to my old level or higher (of playing maybe 20-25 hrs a day).
Thanks. I know what you're talking about, except my breaks are longer and the 20 hour days of playing are rarer. I've thought about massing those marathon days to force a skill bump or even doing pure marine builds (with normal SCV production and expanding, though, and marauders added when obviously needed) just to force myself to play faster through not being distracted by any on-the-fly thinking, planning etc. What would you think about this idea?
Grinding ladder games is a long term solution, not a short one, and is only worthwhile if your theoretical knowledge is pristine AND you pour over every replay. My results often drop briefly when playing more than 4 hours a day for longer than a couple days.
Hmm... Well, I certainly played worse at the end of some marathons than at the beginning of them, too, (with some lost points to recover on the following day) wonder if this is just the momentary tiredness (plus the cyclical nature of winning and losing in a system which wants you to be exactly at 50%) or if it can have a lasting detrimental effect on one's skill, what would you say from your experience?
I would personally recommend a three step procedure:
1) Watch enough top kor pro games in each matchup to gain a strong idea of what you should be doing. Revisit them every week or so to match up your play with theirs and see what is different. 2) Practice your build orders on a map alone and practice specific micro on a micro map. Always do this in your first game of the day. 3) Play the people who are much better over and over, alternating this occasionally with ladder.
Thanks, #1-2 looks great and intuitively very much like what I'd like to be doing (watching a million games helps me tone down the anxiety and feel like the map is my playground again plus I learn some useful stuff). Especially the part about not starting off with ladder games but some other warm-up (not like this is what matters the most but such a warm-up could prevent a couple of avoidable losses). I've occasionally thought about grinding custom games or the more forgiving but still scaled team ladder games to catch up on mechanics (my current most likely cause of death barring several cheeses that I can't counter too well yet) and get a better general sense of the game and my own style before going solo, too (I had started as a team player WC3 but it taught me some habits that caused death in 1v1 due to reliance on situational bailout by an ally being built into my gameply), especially as team play is more forgiving of individual stumbles and the responsibility for a loss is more distributed and less serious anyway, so then I could play team when being tired or unable to focus, what do you think?
#3 is gonna be tough, I remember doing that in WC3 and feeling awful due to how long it took to start not losing 10:0 (vs a guy I'd coached before, what a shame ). The problem is not even the ego effect of losing, though, but the uncertainty as to whether some invisible progress is being made or it's a pointless experience in losing. In this connection, do you think it would be better to go through some kind of rigorous mechanics training schedule first before finding a good player to train with, in order to have a clearer vision of this?
Also, what are some typical learning curves if any, is it typically/generally faster to go from, say, 9:1 to 7:3 than it was from 10:0 to 9:1 with the same player (coach)?
On September 11 2012 03:24 Tyrtl wrote: When It's early mid game and I have two bunkers up when I go to repair the protoss forcefields behind my bunkers so i cant repair
how do i stop this?
Since you don´t give much information i pretend, that you do the standard 1 rax fe into 3 rax double gas into stim into medivacs. There are only 3 possibilities for a protoss to attack you with sentries: 4 gate with double gas on 1 base, a 3 gate pressure after double gas expand and the 6-8 gate timings.
As for the 4 gate and 3 gate pressure builds, you can build a 3rd bunker and/or have your scvs in front of your bunker. This increases the amount of forcefields, he has to do to prevent your repair.
As for the 6 - 8 gate timings, you should be close to your medivacs and/stim and your goal should be just to have as much units alive when stim and medivacs are finished, because then you will easily crush his push. To buy time, you can build a total of 4 or 5 bunkers, when you see the push comming and have your scvs on front of your bunkers for repair.
Don´t be afraid to build additional bunkers if you see sentries early on, since you can easily salvage them and get the money back when your medivacs or out.
This is just some general advice. If you want it more specific, you should give us more informations and at least a replay, so that we can do, whether you did any mayor mistakes.
Hello Ver. How would you play against nexus first when doing rax FE into fast 3rd CC? When do you move out? Is it possible to threaten protoss before medivacs? Do you rush to medivacs or rather for faster upgrades? How would you play against nexus first into 3rd nexus, with forges/HT behind that?
Hi! I haven't played a game since the start of the last season, but I've been watching a lot recently and I think I'm pretty far behind in terms of builds, but I'm not sure where to start for some (TvZ stuff that you linked at your first post REALLY helped though).
In TvP, how common/useful are 3CC builds? I mean, are they just tournament/situation builds? It seems like in most cases, they'd fall over in stiff breezes.
And in TvT, are reaper/hellion openers still "viable"?
I was just wondering about TvZ. When the zerg fast expands and they get their pool late and I see that when I already have 2-3 marines should I push out and make a bunker at their natural expansion or sit back in my base and wait?
Also can you post a TvZ build this match up is so annoying.
I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly:
Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ. For TvT/Z I'd like bio transitions
As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense).
I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly:
Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ.
As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense).
Thanks.
Hey RaAj,
As a Terran player who offraces as Zerg, I think I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that Terran builds are ridiculously 'fixed', compared to Zerg, or even Protoss for that matter.
Zerg always has that aspect of reactivity in their game. You don't really have a fixed build order. You build the tech structure and then decide on what you need army wise when you scout their build. This is a positive and a negative.
Terran on the other hand, you start with a fixed build really. You have a build in mind when you enter a game, you only make adjustments if you scout something unexpected (all-ins, unexpected tech paths such as void ray/starport heavy play in TvP). Trying to go for a jack-of-all-trades setup as Terran is almost certainly a weaker setup, as you can't tech switch between setups easily at all, while your non-Terran opponent can.
This comes because of the way obviously the race produces units, where you have to decide ahead of time what army is building, whereas the Protoss can build reactively from gates, and the Zerg have the 1 production structure.
I'll try to give my best example of what you're asking for anyway.
TvT: Strangely this seems to be the most reactive based matchup, and the play starts early. 1/1/1 allows flexability, with banshee harass, blue-flame drops, tank contains, drop based play, or viking massing. This means you can generally defend to whatever your opponent is going if they're going 1-base, or apply pressure if they're early expanding. Early expand builds obviously try to gain an economic edge, at the expense of any ability to pressure early. Mid-game usually transitions to tank-heavy game play, with heavy emphasis on air control (stopping drops, viking wars over tank range issues, banshee issues). Map control and space control are two of the most important points of this part of the game. If an end-game is reached, usually it transitions into either thor/tank focus with whatever mineral sink you want, mass infantry with many drops and ghost nukes for tank-mispositioning, or heavy air focus viking/banshee/bc. Thor/tank is easiest transition from mid-game play, heavy infantry is most mobile and capable of finishing the game via getting them out of position, and the air heavy is the strongest army vs army, but suffers from mispositioning.
TvP: This is obviously a lot more scout dependent. Fast expand builds are safe here, but you need to scout and be aware of what your opponent can counter with. Do not expect to win if you aren't aware of your opponents strategy here. Highly reliant on getting out your 'next step' as Terran, before they can push an advantage out of their tech. eg. They get colossus, you have no vikings or your starports up? Don't expect to win. They have storm and you have no ghost academy up? You will lose. The game slowly seems to shift into Protoss's favour the longer the game goes, so try to apply pressure early and keep it up all game long. If you're going to expand early, you want to hit a strong timing push at some point to keep the Protoss in check.
I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly:
Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ.
As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense).
Thanks.
Hey RaAj,
As a Terran player who offraces as Zerg, I think I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that Terran builds are ridiculously 'fixed', compared to Zerg, or even Protoss for that matter.
Zerg always has that aspect of reactivity in their game. You don't really have a fixed build order. You build the tech structure and then decide on what you need army wise when you scout their build. This is a positive and a negative.
Terran on the other hand, you start with a fixed build really. You have a build in mind when you enter a game, you only make adjustments if you scout something unexpected (all-ins, unexpected tech paths such as void ray/starport heavy play in TvP). Trying to go for a jack-of-all-trades setup as Terran is almost certainly a weaker setup, as you can't tech switch between setups easily at all, while your non-Terran opponent can.
This comes because of the way obviously the race produces units, where you have to decide ahead of time what army is building, whereas the Protoss can build reactively from gates, and the Zerg have the 1 production structure.
I'll try to give my best example of what you're asking for anyway.
TvT: Strangely this seems to be the most reactive based matchup, and the play starts early. 1/1/1 allows flexability, with banshee harass, blue-flame drops, tank contains, drop based play, or viking massing. This means you can generally defend to whatever your opponent is going if they're going 1-base, or apply pressure if they're early expanding. Early expand builds obviously try to gain an economic edge, at the expense of any ability to pressure early. Mid-game usually transitions to tank-heavy game play, with heavy emphasis on air control (stopping drops, viking wars over tank range issues, banshee issues). Map control and space control are two of the most important points of this part of the game. If an end-game is reached, usually it transitions into either thor/tank focus with whatever mineral sink you want, mass infantry with many drops and ghost nukes for tank-mispositioning, or heavy air focus viking/banshee/bc. Thor/tank is easiest transition from mid-game play, heavy infantry is most mobile and capable of finishing the game via getting them out of position, and the air heavy is the strongest army vs army, but suffers from mispositioning.
Thanks for the information, could you, or any other experienced Terran provide me with builds which sets me up for the mid-game please.
Also, I have another question; For each matchup what are the usual timings for my: engineering bay, armory, factory, and starport, for each matchup? Most builds I see only really go up to factory and engineering timings. I'd prefer if you based these timings off of a standard bio composition focussing on macro play.
99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army?
On September 13 2012 00:01 GTR wrote: 99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army?
On September 13 2012 00:01 GTR wrote: 99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army?
I was just thinking about asking the same thing
You need 3 hotkeys for army. I use 1 for MMM, 2 for vikings, 3 for ghosts. First priority is to EMP everything, second is to focus fire the colossi, third is to stim and stutter step. The best scenario is the P having to fight up a ramp where the vikings shoot from the high ground without getting caught by stalkers.
Get three vikings per colossus. Perhaps someone can talk about how to know how many ghosts to produce.
TLDR, use EMP and viking to neutralize AOE and then P is left with a damaged gateway army that will get steamrolled.
I am wondering, for each MU, what the amount of ghosts should I be going for and, why? I have been wondering this for a while as ghosts are not really used as a DPS unit anymore but rather for EMPs. Also, for each MU when is a good time to start building my ghost academy and how many should I build for each respective MU and should I be making specific barracks to build soley for the purpose of building ghosts or should I just cut production of marauders until I get the optimal amount of ghosts?
On September 09 2012 00:16 Sianos wrote: What is your opinion on the Space Wales Solution to TvZ with reapers and medivac?
I can tell at a glance it's not made by a pro. Unfortunately making builds is quite difficult and it doesn't seem viable even on the few maps favorable for reapers.
On September 09 2012 04:10 UPro-BW wrote: What are good openings for pure Bio TvZ?
Taeja vs Sheth on Cloud Kingdom @ Redbull Lan. 3 cc 5 rax factory. But pure bio is not very effective so I would recommend instead Taeja vs Annyeung in liquid/prime TAC on Antiga, which is more reliable.
On September 09 2012 05:01 dOraWa wrote: I often open with 1 rax expo into adding 2 additional rax, getting medivacs, then adding tanks in TvT (standard marine tank, basically) My troubles comes when my opponent does an early push with a lot of hellions and ~4-5 tanks, I seem to just get decimated. How do I hold something like this? (last time this happened I looked at the replay and they opened reactor hellion expand, into banshee, into 4 fact, 2 reactor/2 tech lab hellion tank) and they just basically attack moved into me and I died. If I survive, I have too little left/they have too good of a defensive position for me to deny a third which leads to the eventuality of me dying. Horribly.
Could you give me some examples of games you have had where you go mech (what they opened with, what you opened with [bio or bio tank]), how you transitioned into fighting the mech army and winning the game? Do you sometimes transition into mech yourself after opening with 3 rax bio?
You never transition into mech from bio or vice versa. The 4 fact push you describe is essentially an allin. You beat it by doing three things:
1) Getting some of your units behind his army to cut his reinforcements. If you force him to keep units at home, or better yet, intercept them, you are in a much better spot.
2) Delay his attack by forcing him to keep sieging.
3) Get a massive envelopment, lead with 2 marauders ahead of the rest to absorb fire. It's hard to overstate how much of an effect this has.
I just held this on Korea in close spawn Antiga doing the above, which is the worst possible position.
If possible drop marines on top of his tanks if his vikings are nonexistent or elsewhere.
On September 09 2012 06:30 Spiner wrote: I've beaten Fuzzy with mech after killing tons of drones. Brood lords arent an issue if you just go mass thor viking. You just need to drop a scan/scout for broods then throw down some starports asap and make vikings. I generally don't make too many tanks even if I see mass roach and instead use banshees, the few tanks I have, and hellions to buffer against the roaches. I would say mech is in a much better position to deal with zerg T3 than bio.
If he rushes broods before infestors and you can have preempetive vikings out in time, yeah you can win that fight. But as soon as he has infestor/queen you can't actually win with thor/viking anymore cause he'll just infested terran/neural spam you to death while transfusing the broods. MVP's lategame wins with mech all relied upon a heavy tank count to kill the Zerg's queens/infestors, though to be fair MVP never fought a critical mass brood army either.
MVP's Metropolis plan is so far the only proven way to reliably beat Hive, which he uses bio for to counterdrop and threaten them in the midgame. Mech just isn't very threatening, can't split outside of one-dimensional hellion drops, and is so gas intensive it means your raven/bc is very delayed. I like mech but it has severe issues
On September 09 2012 07:24 Batcha wrote: Great thread, thanks a lot!
As for hellion banshee in tvz, how do you feel about adding a raven first? In case the followup is marine tank, it feels kind of a waste to invest in cloak since youre not making a lot of banshees.
On the other hand having a raven there frees up the need to scan to kill tumors and gives you a pdd. Maybe even some potential for turret/seeker missile harrass in the mineral line?
No that doesn't make sense. You need 2 banshees out to actually do stuff to the Zerg and feel safe. Yes it is possible to get a raven after 2 banshees, though it's usefulness is rather questionable and situational. I've tried both versions and it feels like the raven is *slightly* stronger versus the very best Zergs but also more luck reliant, as you can lose it/banshees very easily if they go muta or corruptor midgame. Cloak will always pay for itself with 2 banshees if they don't spore every base and can reap dividends even if they do because you can keep his queens out of the middle. That doesn't mean you have to get cloak, but it is very useful.
Main issue is that you have to scan anyway when you push to know their army and ravens are so bloody slow you might need to scan for creep too. Delaying the medivacs is often too crippling.
On September 12 2012 20:42 BOJINKINS wrote: I was just wondering about TvZ. When the zerg fast expands and they get their pool late and I see that when I already have 2-3 marines should I push out and make a bunker at their natural expansion or sit back in my base and wait?
Also can you post a TvZ build this match up is so annoying.
I'm not sure what you mean. It's always useful to move your marines out and threaten something, make him a little uncertain. If you go rax cc and he 3 hatch before pool, yes you want to try to bunker him. If he just does 16/16, you can try to bunker after cc but it's really map dependent and I dunno how viable.
I'm not going to post an exact build, but instead say go copy taeja, because you'll really only get it by watching it over and over. I suggest his game vs Shine on Antiga from TSL qualifiers as the best replay example. The triple cc double gas reactor hellion banshee is what makes him unique.
On September 11 2012 09:34 AKomrade wrote: Hi! I haven't played a game since the start of the last season, but I've been watching a lot recently and I think I'm pretty far behind in terms of builds, but I'm not sure where to start for some (TvZ stuff that you linked at your first post REALLY helped though).
In TvP, how common/useful are 3CC builds? I mean, are they just tournament/situation builds? It seems like in most cases, they'd fall over in stiff breezes.
And in TvT, are reaper/hellion openers still "viable"?
@TvP- No triple orbital builds are safe in general, especially on ramped maps (not Ohana though). You can hold coinflips but it may require overcommitment. The main danger to triple orbital builds is actually triple nexus openings, including the Parting build, because his econ will be so much larger than yours.
@TvT- I guess. They are pretty gimmicky but are seen once in awhile.
On September 11 2012 04:10 UPro-BW wrote: TvP. how to play this damn matchup?
Watch Taeja.
On September 11 2012 03:34 Wicek wrote: Hello Ver. How would you play against nexus first when doing rax FE into fast 3rd CC? When do you move out? Is it possible to threaten protoss before medivacs? Do you rush to medivacs or rather for faster upgrades? How would you play against nexus first into 3rd nexus, with forges/HT behind that?
That's pretty much the defintion of a blind build order loss. No you cannot punish them pre-medivac in nearly all situations; it's not worth trying. Typically you go 3 cc 3 rax double ebay fact, but you can get fact sooner if you want to be safe. If they go 3 nexus with double forge into HTs, the best you can do is appear menacing while making sure to keep expanding and making orbitals and try to gain an advantage as he can't attack for awhile. If he does attack too early you can usually counter drop him and win a base trade when he can't break your natural while you de power his gates or just kite his army all the way across the map.
On September 11 2012 03:24 Tyrtl wrote: When It's early mid game and I have two bunkers up when I go to repair the protoss forcefields behind my bunkers so i cant repair
how do i stop this?
Target fire sentries with the bunkers while making more in the back. If you kill all his sentries and retain your units, even at the cost of scvs, he can't keep pushing.
On September 11 2012 00:29 dynwar7 wrote: Hi Ver
After watching MMA vs MVP in GSL....I think that bio needs to play close to perfect to beat mech.
In addition to that, I need to change my strategy if I face marine/tank player....obviously many more marines than marauders.
I just want one build (for my low level diamond play for now)so.....if I go bio, it will be hard vs mech AND marine tank....if I go marine tank, it will be easy vs bio, but here are my questions:
1.What do you say about marine/tank beating mech? Is it possible? If yes, is it extremely tough? I think its good because oyu have your own tanks to hold lines and your marines can be aggressive everywhere here and there, and they can even stim in when their tanks are unsieged. what do you say?
2. or.......I have no option but to go mech, so I dont need to worry whether my opponent goes marine tank or bio..
Thank you Ver <3
Mech and bio is a pretty even game: it's really hard for both sides. MMA chose a highly risky plan that game and he didn't play it perfectly. You can't draw the conclusion that mech is better from that. You are thinking about this incorrectly though: any non mech player will go marine/tank vs any kind of bio play and bio -> air or bio/tank vs mech. In effect every Terran player has to know how to play vs Mech and vs marine/tank (or vs mech and vs bio if they are mech player). I think the air transition is better than tanks, but some Koreans still win effectively with tanks so both clearly work. Marine/tank iteslf is not used versus mech, while marauders are worthless vs marine/tank.
On September 10 2012 12:40 Sovern wrote: I'd have to agree, gasless expand's in tvt are giving the advantage to the player that does go gas first. 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee pushes are very punishing to gasless expands, you can even all in with it and pull scvs if you really want to push your luck or if your opponent is opening thorzain fast shields style.
You can hold those pushes, the margin of error is just very small. But when you hold them you generally auto win.
On September 10 2012 12:19 ijw2bagahp wrote: I've heard that it is very important to view the replays of the games that I lost. Is that true? Do you spend more time wathing replays (including replays of other progamers) than playing? I'm a begginer in Starcraft II.
Yes for both. If you are practicign the wrong things you are essentially wasting your time.
I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly:
Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ.
As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense).
Thanks.
Hey RaAj,
As a Terran player who offraces as Zerg, I think I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that Terran builds are ridiculously 'fixed', compared to Zerg, or even Protoss for that matter.
Zerg always has that aspect of reactivity in their game. You don't really have a fixed build order. You build the tech structure and then decide on what you need army wise when you scout their build. This is a positive and a negative.
Terran on the other hand, you start with a fixed build really. You have a build in mind when you enter a game, you only make adjustments if you scout something unexpected (all-ins, unexpected tech paths such as void ray/starport heavy play in TvP). Trying to go for a jack-of-all-trades setup as Terran is almost certainly a weaker setup, as you can't tech switch between setups easily at all, while your non-Terran opponent can.
This comes because of the way obviously the race produces units, where you have to decide ahead of time what army is building, whereas the Protoss can build reactively from gates, and the Zerg have the 1 production structure.
I'll try to give my best example of what you're asking for anyway.
TvT: Strangely this seems to be the most reactive based matchup, and the play starts early. 1/1/1 allows flexability, with banshee harass, blue-flame drops, tank contains, drop based play, or viking massing. This means you can generally defend to whatever your opponent is going if they're going 1-base, or apply pressure if they're early expanding. Early expand builds obviously try to gain an economic edge, at the expense of any ability to pressure early. Mid-game usually transitions to tank-heavy game play, with heavy emphasis on air control (stopping drops, viking wars over tank range issues, banshee issues). Map control and space control are two of the most important points of this part of the game. If an end-game is reached, usually it transitions into either thor/tank focus with whatever mineral sink you want, mass infantry with many drops and ghost nukes for tank-mispositioning, or heavy air focus viking/banshee/bc. Thor/tank is easiest transition from mid-game play, heavy infantry is most mobile and capable of finishing the game via getting them out of position, and the air heavy is the strongest army vs army, but suffers from mispositioning.
Thanks for the information, could you, or any other experienced Terran provide me with builds which sets me up for the mid-game please.
Also, I have another question; For each matchup what are the usual timings for my: engineering bay, armory, factory, and starport, for each matchup? Most builds I see only really go up to factory and engineering timings. I'd prefer if you based these timings off of a standard bio composition focussing on macro play.
I don't want to sound harsh but this is something you need to do see for yourself by watching pro games; I can't effectively explain it and have it sink in with just words.
On September 13 2012 00:01 GTR wrote: 99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army?
Ideally you want him to be attacking into you, preferably through a choke, with your army in a wide arc. Your goal is to have the vikings begin combat as early as possible away from any archons and spread out enough so that storms don't wreck them. The outcome of the battle, assuming ideal ratios, comes down to you emp'ing every one of his templar before they can land a storm. Yes it's very hard, and yes you have to get everything right while he can do whatever the hell he wants. After you win the battle, you may have the chance to kill an expo if you win a landslide victory, but the most important thing is to retreat, heal up, and resupply your army. If you keep pursuing him you lose.
You definitely should go through Taeja's TvPs, as he is a specialist at winning battles. In particular, I recommend Taeja/Squirtle from the ESV finals on Abode. Taeja/Squirtle on Taldarim from TAC (liquid/startale), Taeja/Vampire on Daybreak from TAC (liquid/mvp), and Marineking vs Puzzle on Cloud Kingdom.
On September 13 2012 14:28 RaAj wrote: Hi,
I am wondering, for each MU, what the amount of ghosts should I be going for and if possible, why? I have been wondering this for a while as ghosts are not really used as a DPS unit anymore but rather for EMPs. Also, for each MU when is a good time to start building my ghost academy and how many should I build for each respective MU and should I be making specific barracks to build soley for the purpose of building ghosts or should I just cut production of marauders until I get the optimal amount of ghosts?
Thanks.
TvT- possible but generally not worth it. watch mma/mkp on daybreak for an example, stars wars korean qualifier final.
TvZ- if they mass infestor or against ling/infest/ultra ghosts can be really good to harass with too so longa s you won't die in getting them.
TvP- after 3rd cc/double ebay/5 rax you can add it. The more ghosts the better lategame TvP. They do good dps vs zealots and tank, in addition to carpet emps.
In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
take your 5th and 6th gasses slower, especially the 6th. You definitly don't need 6 gasses to support 2 starports, double upgrades, and some mauraders/ghosts on 3 bases. Even for 3/3 and 5 raxes and 1 starport, you only need 4 gas, if not 5 barely otherwise you start stolking up gas because you mine a lot more than you really need
On September 14 2012 19:06 JonIrenicus wrote: Hi Ver, question: two medivac timings in tvp. What's the "strongest" version? When does it hits?
strongest and most standard timing is the one that hits at 10:30. 1 rax gasless expand into 3 rax fast meds and having +1 attack done by the time you move out as well. You have 2 medivacs, stim, and a handful of bio units that can straight out kill the protoss if he is out of position
When I do the MVP mech build what is the correct respone to quick 3 base hive? I have tried pumping thor hellion viking but my opponent just overruns me with infestor broodlord, because I can't get the money to expand doing that? Is there something else I should be doing?
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
take your 5th and 6th gasses slower, especially the 6th. You definitly don't need 6 gasses to support 2 starports, double upgrades, and some mauraders/ghosts on 3 bases. Even for 3/3 and 5 raxes and 1 starport, you only need 4 gas, if not 5 barely otherwise you start stolking up gas because you mine a lot more than you really need
this is no option. i want to be able to use the map as any other race does.
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
If you have too much gas it can be for severals reasons: gas 4, 5 and/or 6 taken too early, constant trades causing you to remake Marines and Marauders en masse, not having enough SCVs mining minerals, ... When playing TvP, I find myself gas starved because Ghosts, Vikings, Medivacs and upgrades (including air attack upgrades) absorb everything on 3 bases. When I'm taking my fourth while being maxxed and still on 65 SCVs, I take gas 7 and 8 right away because I head for mass Ghosts, which takes a lot of gas (Vikings too). So, basically, assuming you have 65 SCVs on 3 bases, you should be able to dump all your gas into Ghosts/Vikings/Medivacs/upgrades. If you're in a rather low-econ action-packed game in which, for some reason, you constantly trade Marines and Marauders, you should pull some SCVs away from your Refineries because you will have no way to spend your banked gas if it goes too high. Adapt your economy to the type of game you're playing.
The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump and must spend minerals for every unit while protoss can dump all their minerals into zealots and all their gas into hts/archons. Terran has no way to do this, as once they are low on minerals they are unable to produce any unit worth using. This issue has been discussed a few times already.
On September 15 2012 05:11 icedragon wrote: The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump
By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are.
On September 15 2012 05:11 icedragon wrote: The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump
By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are.
Are you a Terran player? Ghosts cost 200/100, and my problem are always the minerals. How are Ghosts or Vikings(150/75) gasheavy? Raven, Medivacs and Nukes are gas heavy, maybe I can nuke more. I think a better approach to this problem is getting an extra OC (read Mule) for every gas geysir over 4, so that your mineral income is higher. I think I have seen Taeja do this, but maybe Ver has an even better solution.
What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
On September 14 2012 05:59 smaug81243 wrote: In TVP how do you handle quick 3 nexus openings when opening fairly standard yourself (1-rax expo into 3-rax + tech to medvacs)?
I assume you talk about a 1 gate double expand opening.
1. You need a SCV on the map to know he double expanded; it can be your initial scouting SCV or another if the former died.
2. Once you scout said expand, you should fake pressure, moving out with your Marines to take the Tower; don't commit because you don't know yet if he's going for a massive Gateway timing and you can't afford to lose any troops if he's heading for that; besides, he can reactively warp and easily crush your attack. Still, since he has no Observer out and maybe no Tower depending on the map, he will have to warp some units at home, which will perhaps delay some Gateways or his Twilight Council (the only tech he should be able to afford when going double expand before you move out with your Medivacs). I recommend getting Reactors on Barracks #2 and #3 if you scout his double expand in time as he will be forced to defend with Gateway units only for a long time.
3. If he didn't go for a Gateway timing (things such as 1 gate double expand → 8 gates on Daybreak à la PartinG), you have to use the window corresponding with your first 4 Medivacs to inflict enough damage to at least equalize (or win the game right there, e. g. Polt vs MC on Antiga @ IPL Fight Club (?)). Bear in mind that he shouldn't have a Robotics yet, so without Observers he will be in the dark about where your army is. Be careful though, he might have Blink ready and you don't want your drops to be sniped. Personally, after Medivacs I go up to 5 rax (sometimes with 3 Reactors since he won't have any AoE out yet, so 1-1 Marines en masse shine against unupgraded Gateway units) and pressure him to death, eventually pulling some SCVs to finish him off when I have crippled him enough.
On September 14 2012 19:06 JonIrenicus wrote: Hi Ver, question: two medivac timings in tvp. What's the "strongest" version? When does it hits?
There are mostly two versions, one with 1 Reactor and 2 Tech Labs, the other one with 2 Reactors and 1 Tech Lab. The problem is that you usually can't really know which build the Protoss is heading for, so you can't reactively choose the one which would be the best, and the Protoss can adapt his build order anyway upon scouting 2 Reactors with his Observer (i. e. getting earlier Colossi).
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
It depends on your opening. I assume your problems are with 1 rax FE → 3 rax? When going 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you can stop this by teching your own Tanks and getting Vikings. I'll let Ver answer for 1 rax FE → 3 rax as I no longer play this, but honestly I think you're in a lot of trouble if you don't scout this as the contain (if you stopped his progression teching Tanks as fast as possible) can quickly become unbreakable and nothing prevents him from expanding behind then retreating when you reach Medivacs.
On September 15 2012 05:11 icedragon wrote: The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump
By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are.
Are you a Terran player?
Yes, mid-GM on Europe last two seasons.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
You can go 1 rax FE → 1-1-1, going Hellions/Banshees if you scout a fast expand from your opponent (e. g. Taeja vs YoDa on Cloud Kingdom @ IPL TAC 3) or Marines/Tanks/Vikings first to handle agression from gas openings before going mech.
(If ForGG transitions to mech it's not all-in... Just because he attacks with Marines, Tanks and Banshees doesn't make it “all-in”.)
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Be patient, it takes a lot of time.
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
Don't bother, Queens will easily crush this and your expand will be too late.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Way to be ungrateful. He's offering a free service and owes nothing to you. Sometimes the only demonstrative games are 4+ months old. No links? OP not updated? Don't be lazy and find the games/answers by yourself. You're not entitled to anything.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
Way to be ungrateful. He's offering a free service and owes nothing to you. Sometimes the only demonstrative games are 4+ months old. No links? OP not updated? Don't be lazy and find the games/answers by yourself. You're not entitled to anything.
That's bullshit. How many people are given warnings or bans on this site for offering a free service that TL doesn't find up to par? A few posts before me someone got warned for "giving bad advice"and people that fail to update LR threads get warned/banned all the time.
The thread title says "Pro Terran Strategy Q/A", not "very good compared to most of you Terran Strategy Thread" but I haven't seen a pro answer a question in this thread yet.
Seriously, open up the spoilers in the OP and look how little content there actually is. Sending you off to a Taeja replay with no analyzation isn't exactly helpful.
This first line of the OP is: "one-stop destination for any Terran player in need of high level advice." And currently this is far, far from that. Teamliquid has high standards, but is extremely bias-- something that makes it unique from other websites. So if you are friends with this guy I apologize and understand why you reacted in a way very unfair to a lot of people chastised on this site.
On September 15 2012 21:31 xrapture wrote: That's bullshit. How many people are given warnings or bans on this site for offering a free service that TL doesn't find up to par? A few posts before me someone got warned for "giving bad advice"and people that fail to update LR threads get warned/banned all the time..
Your entire reply screams of entitlement and idiocy, on a level I can't even comprehend. Getting warned for bad(incorrect) advice and failing to update LRs(when other people can do it) are completely different matters. This advice is neither bad, nor can someone else just pick up and do it.
The thread title says "Pro Terran Strategy Q/A", not "very good compared to most of you Terran Strategy Thread" but I haven't seen a pro answer a question in this thread yet.
Ver has already explained his credentials. If you don't think this classifies him as a pro, then don't post here. No one's forcing you to.
Seriously, open up the spoilers in the OP and look how little content there actually is. Sending you off to a Taeja replay with no analyzation isn't exactly helpful.
Just because he hasn't been updating the OP every single day means it's bad? Look through this thread to see how much he's answered.... He's in no way forced to even move everything to the OP just as he's not forced to even answer any questions in the thread. I already explained the "watch Taeja replays" comment which you seemed to conveniently ignore....
This first line of the OP is: "one-stop destination for any Terran player in need of high level advice." And currently this is far, far from that. Teamliquid has high standards, but is extremely bias-- something that makes it unique from other websites. So if you are friends with this guy I apologize and understand why you reacted in a way very unfair to a lot of people chastised on this site.
So here I like how you apologize and subtly make a jab at me in the same sentence. It's not bias, it's more that you're trying to compare apples to oranges, as I already responded to a few paragraphs up. Ver is providing an excellent and rare free service that very few people with the necessary knowledge are willing to spend their time with. He has contributed both to TL and to the strategy forums more than pretty much everyone else here with just this one thread. Yet you don't seem to be bashing any of the other of the strategy threads or strategy contributors. As I said before, if you think this thread isn't good enough, just don't post. Leave. But then again...
it's really the only good place for Terran information atm
you even admit it's the best place to get Terran advice and yet you still keep bashing it?
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
Don't bother, Queens will easily crush this and your expand will be too late.
I was actually talking about the one where you get a expo first, and get an reactor on both the rax and fact, the 8 marine 6 hellion 1 medivac push thorzain did against DRG at dreamhack Valencia on Tal'darim. I am pretty sure the answer is going to be the same, but still wanted to confirm nonetheless.
A second question I have is that would skipping the cloak for the banshees as the 200/200 could be spent on other stuff, or would cloakshees be a better investment in the hellion/banshee harrass? Nvm on the second question found the answer searching through the thread.
On September 11 2012 02:28 NewbieOne wrote: Ver, thank you for your kind answer. It reflects credit on what you said that what you give to it is what you get from it. If you don't mind, I'd ask some more stuff in connection but please note that if you can't or don't feel like devoting the time (it's quite long), then that's okay, I wouldn't like to abuse your courtesy or take up too much of your time. I'll spoilerise the more potentially personal stuff to avoid forcing it on anybody else. Writing more at length in order to avoid being ambiguous.
1) Thorzain's TvT build works perfectly fine in TvP as it is just an optimization of the standard opening. I think he began using it in both matchups at the same time. It is bad in TvZ because it fits in the 'scoutable 2 base timing attack' mold which auto loses to any competent Zerg.
Could you recommend a newbie-friendly mental checklist of sorts to make an approximate decision that a certain build designed to work against one race could work against another and be worth testing out? I'm mostly thinking about TvP <=> TvZ transferrability here (because I see TvT as being more different) but yeah, also TvT <=> TvX in some situations. Like here, with Thorzain TvT, I knew it relied on getting a bunch of marines like it's generally good to have in TvP, similar medivac timing as in some TvP, having 1-2 tanks isn't bad, just old style, so I thought I'd ask you about it to make sure it's worth trying. So, I see you confirming it through extensive knowledge (Thorzain used it in both matchups at the same time) + game-sense (a streamlined classification of the build as being effectively a somewhat optimised standard opening in light of the million other builds). I don't have comparable knowledge, obviously, but are there some identifiable clues (e.g. focal points) you could name that a player newer to the game should still be able to identify if he's aware of what he's looking for?
3) If you want a bludgeon type marine/thor/hellion build, I highly suggest the build Marineking has used on Metropolis (and entombed) in his TvZs in the past 3 months (from KSL finals vs curious is one example). This build feels gimmicky though when I've used it because if they just turtle bl/infestor/queen you can't really break them and you have barely 1 timing attack before they have broods. On a larger map you don't have even that, and when broods are out your chances of winning goes down drastically unless they commit too early instead of turtling for critical mass.
Yes, my point with that BO/unit mix/overall gameplan is either to gimp the Zerg to the point of making his further growth manageable (enabling me to outmacro him), or if he opts for non-aggression but can't really be attacked himself either without making it too much of a gamble, then outrace him to the point that when he gets out that first round of broodlords two minutes after his hive, at which point I'm likely already maxed, 3/3 and pushing, he still can't compete with my army/econ. According to Day9, hive should come about 17 minutes plus one minute per each push, maybe 15 if he gets totally a free hand with everything. Then greater spire takes 100 seconds and a broodlord takes 40. By that time (including the lean 17 minutes timing to first broodlords) I'm probably maxed on 3/3 and ready to take a late third or even fourth behind the push/defence (so this is very similar to a 2-base all-in or at least a 2-base timing push).
Then, if I get caught up in fighting somewhere en route to whatever I want destroyed, I simply get myself more factories (deeming it safer than a risky tech switch to ports, vikings and air upgrades), more bases to support them (basically planting expos everywhere, cancelling or flying away if needed, defending if expedient, PFs if having gas and not needing to reinforce or build factories), farm plenty of SCVs to be able to drag about 20 or more with each subsequent major push, mules if SCVs (and hellions) die but I'd still like to push on to cash in on the opportunity to win outright or do substantial damage. I use hellions to fry broodlings or zerglings (sitting behind thors in such a situation), make some crowd (to avoid concave/numbers problems) or otherwise deal as much splash damage as possible (kinda like in TvP people use them against packs of immortals) and be a filler when the mass of thors is not critical (enough), upping or reducing the number of hellions vis-a-vis thors as necessary in light of my approximation of what seems better in the current situation (or how much gas I have, TBH, sometimes).
If I end up with excess minerals but can't spare the gas for more factories due to the constant production of thors, which I don't want to interrupt for even a second (unless I'm really forced to base-camp), and expanding isn't really possible or viable ATM (or there is still a surplus of minerals anyway),then I get some raxes and marines to pull marine packs behind the mech pushes to use them for appropriate task, to phase out the hellions if the marines seem to work out better, but mostly to just remax faster (esp. vs Zerg's remaxing potential) and to be able to keep drilling.
So this is the reason why I don't get the ports: they'd interrupt and disturb my comfortable rhythm (with the 150/100 apiece plus addons plus upgrades), delay my favourite timings, take away some windows of opportunity I'm used to (not enough stuff to push with/defend a counterpush or expand), add some windows to the Zerg (esp. when I don't have the same defensive strength due to getting the air at the time, or forcing me to reveal too much to him), force me to use unupgraded stuff (whereas any effectiveness this build has hinges on the synergy of upgrades) etc. but most of all delaying me to the point that the Zerg will be able to farm more broodlords than I want him to have (and I want to kill or cripple him preferably when he has already committed funds but still can't reap the full benefit of his investment). I'd only really go for ports if I ended up with a massive gas bank, which would be extremely rare. I'd basically never really have the window to start making ports and vikings anyway with the mentality of this build.
Using this game plan I very rarely fall to broodlords if at all (I can think of about 1 situation of losing a game in consequence of losing a major engagement featuring broodlords). That would generally require a massive blunder from me (basically one where I'm dead anyway; used to include failure to bring enough repair along, failure to bring more assist along or make it survive, failure to reinforce sufficiently fast but these have all been worked out eventually) or a massively good move from the Zerg (but I've yet to see more than a dozen broodlords alive and in one pack with this type of drilling), usually connected to him outmacroing me rather than anything to do with the engagement itself (so I'm likely similarly dead anyway), as he can't really afford to be herding big packs of broodlords at the edge of the map.
So... is it likely that on higher levels, where both the Zerg and I (will) have better/more fluid skills, better control, faster execution, better scouting, more game-sense and more active or at least properly responsive way of playing, the Zerg will easily negate this strategy? As in my game plan here having a lower skill cap than whatever the Zerg would or could use to counter it? Or relying too much on windows of opportunity that only the less skilled Zerg players create but not the more skilled ones (assuming the Zerg is not significantly more skilled than the Terran)?
Also, could I make a TvP build out of this one, with some modifications but using the same principles?
4) I have been in a somewhat similar position, as I am going for my phd while playing competitively. This really depends on what level you want to get to.
I don't really have a specific level to get to as in this or that league or tournament scene level but in WC3: TFT I was at the point where I was several ladder levels under the top 1000 of the Europe server (I was level 26). A person even registering for tournaments with any credibility would still win a convincing majority of games through mechanics/general dexterity (including a guy I'd coached), although I could still be the more experienced player, which could show in some situations ("don't quit! this 2v2 can still be won if we..."). New rising talents would be somewhat scared of me, more than needed, but they'd invariably have overlapped me after a while of getting coached by the gosus from the best clans. Any ladder game would be a likely win if dragged beyond 17-20 and especially 40 minutes, let alone 1 hour, most deaths being mid-game doom pushes playing up to situational racial/map strengths. The difference from real gosus was that they had more production within the same time-frame when freestyling.
Most of all that I miss from my current skill level in SC2 vis-a-vis how things were in WC3 is that in WC3 I could do all the cute things like teleporting through every expansion on the map using spy critters previously planted as decoys, militia-teleporting to help a besieged ally after losing all our armies in a battle just before, or militia defence of a base with 3/3 militia (as the side effect of 3/3 melee upgrades) and a couple of support casters alone, going without barracks when feeling like it (e.g. a totally caster only composition), beating a numerically superior army off of sheer micro (when being tired and getting sloppy with production timings, punishing the other guy for making more melee units than he could manage or benefit from having), killing a night elf base with his entire army in it with 60-80 gyrocopters in an FFA, gimping an opponent early game by killing/denying his supply buildings for a prolonged time (I guess this is similar to pylon busting with early marauders when you add on more stuff but leave his workers alone unless they're making more pylons, so as not to free up supply for him), dedicated main hall busting, or delaying your own production a bit to scout and guess the other guy and only then come up with a massively bad situational counter, having like 4 hotkeyed research buildings, and other such stuff that was supposedly not doable or few people ever thought about doing.
I'd basically like to get to the same "level" in SC2, not necessarily higher than it but not really stopping there on purpose, either. And yeah, analogies to the examples I gave above are obviously impossible in SC2 or involve a different race than Terran but they are just examples and I'm only talking about the ability to do that type of stuff and get away with it, i.e. not be forevered tied up in the same old low league due to the resulting high loss ratio when things don't work out. So, playing convincingly with one's own ideas (as opposed to only copying popular builds), being able to adapt the game to one's own style (like Goody did), losing to relatively few people in the local scene (e.g. a European country or a state in the USA), even when still being around 50% on the MMR-based ladder because there is, after all, still a crowd of better players continent-wide. From that point, I could perhaps sit down and decide if I wanted to take it further and commit seriously (depending on my family or job situation etc.) or keep playing like this with only the improvement that comes as a side effect of playing or watching more games and reading discussions on the forums.
The most important thing is to watch enough games that you know what to do and to play a little bit every day or 5-6 days a week so you can keep your skill. I have been forced to take a month or two off at a time due to school and my skill level plummets when I do; it takes another month or two to get back to my old level or higher (of playing maybe 20-25 hrs a day).
Thanks. I know what you're talking about, except my breaks are longer and the 20 hour days of playing are rarer. I've thought about massing those marathon days to force a skill bump or even doing pure marine builds (with normal SCV production and expanding, though, and marauders added when obviously needed) just to force myself to play faster through not being distracted by any on-the-fly thinking, planning etc. What would you think about this idea?
Grinding ladder games is a long term solution, not a short one, and is only worthwhile if your theoretical knowledge is pristine AND you pour over every replay. My results often drop briefly when playing more than 4 hours a day for longer than a couple days.
Hmm... Well, I certainly played worse at the end of some marathons than at the beginning of them, too, (with some lost points to recover on the following day) wonder if this is just the momentary tiredness (plus the cyclical nature of winning and losing in a system which wants you to be exactly at 50%) or if it can have a lasting detrimental effect on one's skill, what would you say from your experience?
I would personally recommend a three step procedure:
1) Watch enough top kor pro games in each matchup to gain a strong idea of what you should be doing. Revisit them every week or so to match up your play with theirs and see what is different. 2) Practice your build orders on a map alone and practice specific micro on a micro map. Always do this in your first game of the day. 3) Play the people who are much better over and over, alternating this occasionally with ladder.
Thanks, #1-2 looks great and intuitively very much like what I'd like to be doing (watching a million games helps me tone down the anxiety and feel like the map is my playground again plus I learn some useful stuff). Especially the part about not starting off with ladder games but some other warm-up (not like this is what matters the most but such a warm-up could prevent a couple of avoidable losses). I've occasionally thought about grinding custom games or the more forgiving but still scaled team ladder games to catch up on mechanics (my current most likely cause of death barring several cheeses that I can't counter too well yet) and get a better general sense of the game and my own style before going solo, too (I had started as a team player WC3 but it taught me some habits that caused death in 1v1 due to reliance on situational bailout by an ally being built into my gameply), especially as team play is more forgiving of individual stumbles and the responsibility for a loss is more distributed and less serious anyway, so then I could play team when being tired or unable to focus, what do you think?
#3 is gonna be tough, I remember doing that in WC3 and feeling awful due to how long it took to start not losing 10:0 (vs a guy I'd coached before, what a shame ). The problem is not even the ego effect of losing, though, but the uncertainty as to whether some invisible progress is being made or it's a pointless experience in losing. In this connection, do you think it would be better to go through some kind of rigorous mechanics training schedule first before finding a good player to train with, in order to have a clearer vision of this?
Also, what are some typical learning curves if any, is it typically/generally faster to go from, say, 9:1 to 7:3 than it was from 10:0 to 9:1 with the same player (coach)?
Thank you for your time! GL HF in your games.
-The best way for lower level players to determine a builds worth is to see top pros consistently winning with it. Each matchup has its own logic, and the gameplan even for the same build is vastly different in each matchup. Therefore I don't think you should be approaching this as a 'hmm which build can I use in more than one matchup' but seeing what really works consistently in each matchup.
-Yeah your game plan is limited to lower levels, where Zerg is really crippled mechanically. At the highest level, Zerg creep spread will be so great, even when limited by hellion/banshee, that you won't be able to kill them before they get hive units generally. The best you can do is kill their fourth, reduce their creep, and bleed them enough that they cannot max out on hive units for some time. Then you can keep trading before they get that critical mass. See Taeja/Revival on Entombed from MLG Raleigh.
-If you are on two bases, the Zerg doesn't even need to hive rush. He will simply kill you with a lair army whenever you move out on creep, or just backstab, because you have no econ to replenish your forces. When you do a normal 3 base build and take your 4th at your 2-2 push or slightly after, you'll have plenty of money to transition into what is needed. In TvP this 2 base allin play is possible, though in most cases rather archaic. I suggest Supernova/Hasuobs on Ohana, MVP/whichever protoss in his group on Ohana from IEM, and Taeja/Genius from TL qualifier finals.
-If you mass game following a prolonged break, you can actually expect to see worse results for awhile. You should never be doing a different build than you would be in a real game (i,e pure marine builds or w/e). You get better by practicing the right thing over and over again. Playing marathon sessions without rest will naturaly degrade your play over hte course of the day; rest/exercise is really important throughout. I typically will do 5 or so pushups after each game.
-As for learning curves...there is too much situational here. All I know is that it's easier to improve from bronze/silv/gold to NA/EU high masters/ low gm than it is to go from gm to top tier pro level nowadays because of the sheer refinement necessary to compete.
On September 14 2012 05:59 smaug81243 wrote: In TVP how do you handle quick 3 nexus openings when opening fairly standard yourself (1-rax expo into 3-rax + tech to medvacs)?
It depends how quickly you see this. If you spot it right away you can go for an ultra fast upgrade rush 5 rax mass marine timing, either very fast 2-2 or a slower but faster rax 1-1. Dwf's solution also works, though naturally both of these are very tricky (you are on the losing end of the build order battle here regardless). You can also attempt to outmicro them right away ala Marineking vs Jangbi on Antiga, but this requires you to be much better than them.
Last option that works on certain maps (i,e Daybreak, possibly cloud kingdom) is going 3 rax fact stim and pushing with 3 siege tanks/medivac/+1. If he does Parting build he'll get smashed, and if he does some greedy tech build you should be able to punish because he'll be trying to hold the push with slow zealots and gateway units.. Just make sure you target fire the guardian shield sentry with the tanks and you're golden.
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
For 3 rax tech, If they set up outside your bunker as soon as siege mode finishes (with 1 or 2 tanks) then you can pull most of your scvs and 1a through. Because he invested in a proxy rax to float he will have less units than normal and will not be able to hold.
If he delays pushing until 3 tanks (most won't) you should be able to stall long enough to either base trade or set up a large flank with stim/combat/medivacs +1. If he makes a lot of bunkers the flank becomes less attractive but the base trade will work; you can just ferry your units outside of your main with the second set of medivacs and just lift off elsewhere; if you kill his cc and keep yours he can't win because your army will beat him on the open field and you have 2 cc's while he has only a few scvs and has to make one from scratch.
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army...
Ghosts are generally the accepted gas dump and will use up all your gas until your initial 3 bases run dry. However, I don't particularly like pure ghost/marine (marauders are bad naturally) because of how fragile it is and how any slight miscontrol will lose you the game.
Ravens are generally horrific because of feedback. The ideal lategame transition is battlecruisers, which will certainly use up all of your gas. You just have to accept that Protoss armies are more efficient than Terran armies and rely on brute force to win every battle. Bio/medivac/viking/battlecruiser will auto win any fight as you kite away from their zealots, then return to assist the battlecruisers with cleanup. You don't want to make MVP's mistake of neglecting marines, as otherwise a void ray transition becomes possible. I suggest Ryung vs Tassadar and Sangho on Daybreak. They're old games but people rarely reach this stage and tvp rarely evolves so they are still quite valid. Another point to keep in mind is that you should be emp'ing your BC's before major engagements, as they are poor if feedbacked.
Alternatively on some maps (shakuras/taldarim), you can transition into reaper/nukes and just harass them to death, using those two tools to open the way for mass drops while turtling behind planetaries. See Thorzain vs Crank on Shakuras, from I believe EGMCSL, if not then NASTL, Mouz/Slayers ace match.
On September 15 2012 04:05 kollin wrote: When I do the MVP mech build what is the correct respone to quick 3 base hive? I have tried pumping thor hellion viking but my opponent just overruns me with infestor broodlord, because I can't get the money to expand doing that? Is there something else I should be doing?
MVP mech is not hellion thor viking. MVP mech is mass tanks. If he goes only 3 base hive he's not going to have the resources to stop your pre-broodlord attack. Your goal is to force him to trade as much as possible before he gets broods, thus limiting the amount of infestor/brood he can actually have. You should always have the money to keep expanding with mech and if he is not being really aggressive with roach/muta you should be taking a 4th quickly. If he is going ling/infestor and really rushing hive, you actually should not be hellion harassing, but instead massing them up as once you get a critical mass of hellions his lings are worse than useless.
On September 15 2012 13:59 xrapture wrote: What's the most solid way to open mech in tvt? TvT is my best matchup, but I've kind of just been winging it because I haven't read anything definitive from a pro player.
So like, I've seen Gumiho go gas first cloakless banshee into double expand, or stc go reactor helion banshee, and forGG go 1/1/1 all in into mech... but they all just seem weird and not something you can standardize for your play.
Also, really wish this was more organized and in depth since it's really the only good place for Terran information atm. Most of your replys to people are "go watch Taeja", with no links to which replay and some of the games you suggest are 4+ months old. There's also a lot more from this thread that could be added into the OP, but it seems like you've given up on that.
rax cc into reactor hellion cloak banshee is solid. See Forgg/Taeja on Daybreak from Asus semis. In general there are a lot of ways to transition depending on what you want to open with. gas first banshee expo, rax gas cloak expo, etc. But any way you go about it you end up with 3 facts, a reactored port, an armory, and a 3rd cc starting after all that. I tend to find banshees not particularly good with mech unless they are going bio/tank or the other guy is mech.
Are you volunteering to organize? It's a lot of busywork, and something has to be triaged. Rest assured it will get updated, but when and how often I cannot say.
On September 15 2012 18:41 NoZyneighbor wrote: I have currently been experimenting with TvZ opening and have been doing 1 gas marine, hellion, medivacs pressure that was popularized by Thorzain and MMA and was wondering if it is still a viable build by current TvZ standard?
I was actually talking about the one where you get a expo first, and get an reactor on both the rax and fact, the push thorzain did against DRG at dreamhack Valencia. I am pretty sure the answer is going to be the same, but still wanted to confirm nonetheless.
Yeah queens will bash it sadly, or roaches if they bother to build them. Out of date.
On September 14 2012 21:14 SHODAN wrote: Ver, how do you hold proxy tank with a floating barracks as a spotter in TvT?
For 3 rax tech, If they set up outside your bunker as soon as siege mode finishes (with 1 or 2 tanks) then you can pull most of your scvs and 1a through. Because he invested in a proxy rax to float he will have less units than normal and will not be able to hold.
If he delays pushing until 3 tanks (most won't) you should be able to stall long enough to either base trade or set up a large flank with stim/combat/medivacs +1. If he makes a lot of bunkers the flank becomes less attractive but the base trade will work; you can just ferry your units outside of your main with the second set of medivacs and just lift off elsewhere; if you kill his cc and keep yours he can't win because your army will beat him on the open field and you have 2 cc's while he has only a few scvs and has to make one from scratch
This isn't the answer I expected. If my opponent pushes with 1 tank in tank mode, he can outrange the bunker (the barracks granting vision). Let's say I go 3rax tech and throw down a bunker, uncertain of what my opponent is doing with his gas. I would have about 10 marines and a bunker. Now grant that the spotting barracks allows my opponent to spot a heavy SCV pull in advance. If I pull SCVs at this moment, my opponent can kite back with 6-8 marines and a tank.
Next comes tank #2. At this point my opponent has enough gas to begin a starport and produce tanks. Knowing that I'm on 3rax tech, he can continue to keep his 2 tanks in tank mode, pressure my bunker, and kite back if I pull SCVs. Rinse/repeat. Next comes tank #3. Now my opponent either has a viking or a banshee for vision ---> he can land the spotting barracks to produce even more marines. 3 tanks is that critical mass that just melts an SCV/marine pull. Keep in mind I've already lost a lot of minerals repairing the bunker. I may also be down on SCVs if I tried to pull them against tanks in tank mode. The extremely close rally distance makes proxy tank so much deadlier than a straight up 1-1-1, and part of the reason why it is impossible to hold with 3rax tech.
Your answer is interesting because in TvT, many foreign terran pros still go 3rax tech. Thorzain made this style extremely popular. But do you really think it can hold everything, even the most sophisticated cheese like proxy tank or reaper/hellion drop? The TvT metagame in Korea seems to be: if you go 1 rax gasless FE and scout a gas opening from your opponent, you should immediately double gas, build the CC in your main for safety, reactor on rax, and rush to factory/starport ---> hold with hellions, vikings or tanks. My question was more like, how should I hold proxy tank with gas units, either with my own tanks, or with banshees, or with early reapers in his base?
The one time I went proxy tank in an important match was vs. SlayersMiso, who outcheesed me with proxy hellion/banshees. We traded all our SCVs down to 0, but I killed his command center and floated mine away. When we finally engaged, he suicided his hellions for most of my marines, and the banshee did the rest. First time playing a korean pro, I was nervous; I gg'd without realizing that, because he had no depots (no viking), I could have went for a draw with my CC. Good experience anyway ^.^
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: This isn't the answer I expected. If my opponent pushes with 1 tank in tank mode, he can outrange the bunker (the barracks granting vision).
So? He can't kill the Bunker without Siege because you just repair until you get your first Marauder. He doesn't have any real threat before Siege which can be completed at ~6'05 at the earliest. You can start your Factory by this mark and have Siege Mode completed at, say, ~8'30 if you use one of your Barracks to make a Tech Lab for your Factory. I think you can stall for two minuts (second Tank comes out of his proxy Factory at ~6'20 at the earliest) to get said Tanks repairing your Bunkers, retreating, etc. This is how I tried to handle it the only time I faced it some months ago; I had to retreat to my main but I got Sieged Tanks in time to stop him from going up my main ramp. I don't like this approach as he's free to expand and have a macro game behind it since he has a contain and damaged you, but if your opponent makes a Bunker straight away (at the bottom of your natural's ramp if there is one) and pulls 4-5 SCVs to repair it, I'm not sure you can break the contain efficiently with Marines/SCVs. I saw ForGG try 5 rax Marines/Marauders against Satiini on Ohana, but he had to give too many SCVs to break free and Cloak Banshees eventually finished him.
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: Let's say I go 3rax tech and throw down a bunker, uncertain of what my opponent is doing with his gas. I would have about 10 marines and a bunker. Now grant that the spotting barracks allows my opponent to spot a heavy SCV pull in advance. If I pull SCVs at this moment, my opponent can kite back with 6-8 marines and a tank.
Next comes tank #2. At this point my opponent has enough gas to begin a starport and produce tanks. Knowing that I'm on 3rax tech, he can continue to keep his 2 tanks in tank mode, pressure my bunker, and kite back if I pull SCVs. Rinse/repeat.
That doesn't make sense. Hitting your Bunker with unsieged Tanks doesn't threaten anything. The only threat he has comes from Sieged Tank(s) with the lifted Barracks giving him vision of your repairing SCVs so he can safely blast them with his Tank(s), eventually forcing you to retreat to another Bunker behind until he can progress enough to force your natural to lift, etc. Wasting precious seconds or minuts to harmlessly pound on your Bunker with unsieged Tanks while he could Siege or revealing his first proxy Tank before Siege Mode is complete doesn't make any sense, really. Part of the trick about this opening is Marines take your Tower—you don't fight for this Tower because you don't want to be caught in the open by possible Hellions—then suddenly 1 or 2 Sieged Tanks are hitting your Bunker. Attacking your Bunker with his first unsieged Tank will only give away his strategy, giving you more time to prepare your own Tanks and make a second Bunker behind the first that is bound to fall.
On September 17 2012 03:53 SHODAN wrote: My question was more like, how should I hold proxy tank with gas units, either with my own tanks, or with banshees, or with early reapers in his base?
Tanks are your best bet. Banshees take too long to get and he will build Vikings anyway at some point, and you need your Tech Lab Barracks for Marauders (and his Barracks is not proxied, so he can fend off your Reapers with his Marines produced at home).
I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1.
Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor.
Are you volunteering to organize? It's a lot of busywork, and something has to be triaged. Rest assured it will get updated, but when and how often I cannot say.
I actually will volunteer to do that, if you want.
I was wondering what was your opinion of Bomber's TvZ build he did against DRG in GSL season 4 group H, in which he forgoes the hellion/banshee harass, instead opts for really fast 3 cc and go for a big marine tank push at around ~11:30 consisting of ~60 marine, 4 tanks, and 1 medivac with +1/+1.
Even though the zerg is left to its own devices, it hits at an early time than the regular ~13min +2/+2 push and still hits pretty hard especially when most zerg theses days will probably not be ready for it.
While it is very vulnerable in the beginning as you will suffer lots of damage or just straight up die to a 7:10 roach/ling or the ~9 min roach/bane/ling all ins
Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
Great Thread! Is it better to get Stim or Combat Shield first in TvT? I thought CS was better, but I notice a lot of Korean Terran in the GSL going for stim first. What are your thoughts?
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
Thanks, very helpful! Scouting it early and slowing it/killing it before it can reach my base seems to be the universal response.
If you did the expo into 3 rax combat shield then you can pull a couple scvs for buffer and meet him before he can siege, or if you opened 1 rax fe double gas then you should be able to delay his push long enough with a repaired bunker, that you will be able to get out your own siege tank and Viking to ward him off.
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
Thanks, very helpful! Scouting it early and slowing it/killing it before it can reach my base seems to be the universal response.
Am i the only one thinking this might actually apply here?
It's a good, detailed guide about how you can stall him till you have stim+medivacs.
Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game.
I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc.
The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus
How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do?
On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game.
I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc.
The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus
One problem that occurs to me is that your addons are going to be building right when you get hit by all the 1-base all-ins like 4gate, blinkstalkers, immortal busts and you will get utterly crushed with hardly any units, making it a bit of a gamble/a bad idea if you can't be certain toss is expanding.
I'm not especially good so take this with a pinch of salt.
Sorry. Had the non-pro Q&A thread open too and posted in the wrong one.
On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver
How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do?
I'm no high-level player, but the answer to this usually involves spreading your vikings all around so they cant all be fungaled while the broods move out of range. ghosts are better used in sniping or emping the infestors anyways, doing nearly double the damage there.
what is a sure fire way to scout incoming cheese (i.e. sentry drop in your main, ff on the ramp) from all these noobie protoss on the gold league ladder. is there a specific time i should save a scan for DT's or to scan their main to see exactly when the prism is coming? soooo much cheese from protoss. i used to play toss and didnt rely on all ins or anything, but now every protoss i come up against is cheesing or all ining me.. really discouraging me from even laddering now.
Hey Ver, still a great thread, learning quite a bit.
For TvZ, how do you feel about Cloakshee CC as an opening? I'm not confident in my APM/multitasking to make Hellion/Banshee work very well so I was looking into a Banshee with Cloak followed by CC into Mech (with Banshee support from the one Starport until Brood Lords show up). Could a straight up fast cloaked Banshee work against a Zerg or would I be too vulnerable to something like a Baneling Bust?
On September 17 2012 13:23 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver
I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1.
Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor.
Don't have access to this VOD but if it's some sort of fast expand → dual gas at the same time, skipping a gas is not a good idea since it will delay your first Factory by ~26 seconds (it takes ~52 seconds to gather 100 gas from a single Refinery). Pulling 1 SCV out of each gas after the Factory begins is a better idea if you don't want to get Cloak.
On September 20 2012 05:38 monkybone wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding lategame TvZ, when the Zerg transitions into brood lords.
I go 1 rax FE into hellion banshee, and ultimately end up with a marine tank medievac composition on three base. I also have 3 barracks with tech labs ready to produce marauders if I spot ultralisk tech. But what do I do if I spot brood lord tech? I have tried several things:
- Throw down two extra starports (or 1 extra with reactor) and produce vikings 4 at a time: With this marine tank medievac viking composition I just can't trade cost-effectively against a Zerg army with infestors once the brood lords pop. Zerg compensates with corruptors, and with fungal my vikings just don't do the job, they die with doing minimal damage.
- Throw down two extra star ports with tech labs, and produce ravens 2 at a time, and vikings 2 at a time: Before I have ravens with seeker missiles and a good viking count I have already been pushed back to my 3 bases, and I can't hold off the attack. I just can't transition fast enough to deal with this composition.
The most success I've had vs Zerg in this situation is going for doom drops and heavy harass, hoping to catch the Zerg way off position. But this is risky and will likely turn into a bad trade if the Zerg stays defensive.
Thanks for any tips.
Depends on your economy and your situation (advantage/even/disadvantage). I usually get +3 Lab Starports when I have enough gas to make a Raven fleet, otherwise leave them naked and focus on Vikings if you don't have enough gas. You want to stall / defend your PF at the fourth while your Ravens are building up energy. Unless Zerg has mass Banelings along, it takes some time for BLs to break PFs.
On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game.
I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc.
The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus
Gasless 5 rax after expand can actually be more active on the map than standard 3 rax since it's not immediately game if you lose 5/6 Marines to a bunch of Stalkers/Sentries moving out on the map to pressure you. But it's not a reliable build anyway.
2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor is better for a pre-Medivac Stim timing since it allows you to get CS. It's worthless on maps like Ohana and Shakuras with a tight ramp closed by 2 FFs, though. It's better on maps like Daybreak or CK in which you can come unseen from their third if Protoss didn't bother to park a unit here after you've taken back your Tower, but you shouldn't expect much even in this case; if the Observer misses your units moving out on the map, the late Starport and absence of a third OC should tell him you're going this. By the time your push hits, you cannot always know if he's going HTs or Colossi since he will defend with Gateway units only in most cases.
On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver
How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do?
Don't bother with mass Ghosts anymore. Counters depend on how much gas he's able to dump into this army.
- Low Infestors/BLs count (basically when he gets his first BLs or you've crippled him enough by repeatedly killing his fourth and/or fifth): Marines/Thors/Vikings can still work to some extent with a good concave.
- Medium count (if he manages to stabilize on at least 8 gases): Ravens become mandatory as the efficiency of any ground unit starts to dramatically decrease (the more BLs he has, the more Marines and Thors become useless).
- High count (if he's maxed on BLs/Corruptors/Infestors with 10 or 12 gases): ideally you want your own fleet of BCs/Vikings/Ravens.
Some Ghosts are an option but beware, they're really expensive.
On September 21 2012 01:51 Vildhjarta22 wrote: what is a sure fire way to scout incoming cheese (i.e. sentry drop in your main, ff on the ramp) from all these noobie protoss on the gold league ladder. is there a specific time i should save a scan for DT's or to scan their main to see exactly when the prism is coming? soooo much cheese from protoss. i used to play toss and didnt rely on all ins or anything, but now every protoss i come up against is cheesing or all ining me.. really discouraging me from even laddering now.
DT expands usually warp their DTs around the 7'15 mark, so they should be at your natural around the 7'30 mark.
On September 21 2012 19:38 Thezzy wrote: Hey Ver, still a great thread, learning quite a bit.
For TvZ, how do you feel about Cloakshee CC as an opening? I'm not confident in my APM/multitasking to make Hellion/Banshee work very well so I was looking into a Banshee with Cloak followed by CC into Mech (with Banshee support from the one Starport until Brood Lords show up). Could a straight up fast cloaked Banshee work against a Zerg or would I be too vulnerable to something like a Baneling Bust?
It's too slow (expand is too late) and you won't get much out of it. Lack of early expand means your Zerg opponent will sacrifice an Overlord earlier, and even if he sees only some Marines it pretty much tells him you're going Cloak Banshees.
On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game.
I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc.
The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus
Gasless 5 rax after expand can actually be more active on the map than standard 3 rax since it's not immediately game if you lose 5/6 Marines to a bunch of Stalkers/Sentries moving out on the map to pressure you. But it's not a reliable build anyway.
2 Tech Labs and 1 Reactor is better for a pre-Medivac Stim timing since it allows you to get CS. It's worthless on maps like Ohana and Shakuras with a tight ramp closed by 2 FFs, though. It's better on maps like Daybreak or CK in which you can come unseen from their third if Protoss didn't bother to park a unit here after you've taken back your Tower, but you shouldn't expect much even in this case; if the Observer misses your units moving out on the map, the late Starport and absence of a third OC should tell him you're going this. By the time your push hits, you cannot always know if he's going HTs or Colossi since he will defend with Gateway units only in most cases.
I think you mistaken which 5 rax pressure I was talking about, the one i was refering to was the one Bomber did pretty much exclusively during the Red Bull Battleground against all the tosses he played against, where he takes one gas at the regular time and slowly takes the rest of the gas at certain intervals in order to get more minerals to have either money to get a faster 4th and 5th rax or money for extra bunkers.
These are a couple links if you do not know what build I was refering too
The build gives terran the ability to hit the toss really hard using either medivac harrass or hitting the toss from the front, either way you will have 5 raxes worth of production (3 with tech labs, 2 with reactors) at the 10 min mark when toss will usually be execpting medivac harrass. The answer you gave doesn't change, but I thought I would clarify everything.
On September 22 2012 14:32 NoZyneighbor wrote: I think you mistaken which 5 rax pressure I was talking about, the one i was refering to was the one Bomber did pretty much exclusively during the Red Bull Battleground against all the tosses he played against, where he takes one gas at the regular time and slowly takes the rest of the gas at certain intervals in order to get more minerals to have either money to get a faster 4th and 5th rax or money for extra bunkers.
Ah yes, my bad. I know this opening as “Bomber's 1 rax FE,” sorry.
Why do people say 1/1/1 against protoss is a bad build, figured out and not recommended if code S terrans still use it to kill protosses? The most recent I've seen is FXOasd vs MaNa.
On September 28 2012 00:24 herMan wrote: Why do people say 1/1/1 against protoss is a bad build, figured out and not recommended if code S terrans still use it to kill protosses? The most recent I've seen is FXOasd vs MaNa.
Once a Protoss has faced it enough times, it is harder to kill the Protoss in execution than it is for the Protoss to hold it.
For instance in TvZ I do the standard Ghostking v. Nestea build and I know how the game is supposed to play out. I'm going to go for a 2/2 timing to kill his 4th while taking my own 4th and making the transition to deal with hive tech. (For me that's 2 more starports, 3rax's with techlabs and some ghost academies à la Kawaiirice.) I know if he goes broodlords my thor/marine/tank/viking can go decently well against it if I did damage with my push. I can then harass with nukes while trying to continually deny bases and eventually win the game. Same thing for ultras except I just make marauders instead of ghosts and I win with my economy and production as I should have 4 base to 3 if my 2/2 push is successful.
However when I play TvP I just do a standard 1rax fe into 3rax tech and then... that's it. I know I'm going to take map control when my first medivacs pop out. Then I'm going to take a third and get more rax's and upgrades. That's it though. I have no goals such as "timing attack at X time to delay/hinder his lategame army so I can win with some sort of advantage whether it's economy or tech. A lot of my TvP's start with me getting a supply and economy lead but being unable to deal any damage or kill him, and he just eventually just runs me over with colossus/storm/zealots and warpins even if he was behind in bases the whole game.
Maybe that's just how TvP works but I would much prefer a build where I can take the initiative like TvZ. I have a goal which is to kill the 4th, and I know how to turn the advantage into a win if I'm successful. Can TvP be approached that way? Or are there some good timing attack builds off a 1rax fe that function that way? I hate the "wander around the map looking for a good engagement" as I just lose the game if it goes poorly, and we end up even if I don't have a landslide victory.
Edit: On another note how do you defend against a 4gate warpprism after a 1rax fe (just played a game where I only scouted the 4 gates and got rocked in my main with 2 useless bunkers in my nat) and what are some good simcity principles against protoss?
How do you attack into Protosses once they have either AOE or charge? I prefer a style where I can constantly be aggressing, but when protosses tech very aggressively, I feel like I can't do any damage and at the same time, I feel uncomfortable teching to ghosts on less than 6 gasses. As a person who feels his multitask is his strongest suit, I really need help being able to attack and retreat against protoss, and charge really negates the retreat aspect I feel.
I was able to successfully hold a roach bane ling allin, but I was wondering if there was anything else I can do to hold it better
Here is a replay of the match, I played really poorly after I held the allin, kind of got flustered http://drop.sc/258670
I think I could of sent most of my scvs back into the main, started marauder production faster, sent out the banshees farther to start harrassing his lings and roachs, maybe send out my hellions to kill his lings.
On September 20 2012 05:38 monkybone wrote: Hi, I have a question regarding lategame TvZ, when the Zerg transitions into brood lords.
I go 1 rax FE into hellion banshee, and ultimately end up with a marine tank medievac composition on three base. I also have 3 barracks with tech labs ready to produce marauders if I spot ultralisk tech. But what do I do if I spot brood lord tech? I have tried several things:
- Throw down two extra starports (or 1 extra with reactor) and produce vikings 4 at a time: With this marine tank medievac viking composition I just can't trade cost-effectively against a Zerg army with infestors once the brood lords pop. Zerg compensates with corruptors, and with fungal my vikings just don't do the job, they die with doing minimal damage.
- Throw down two extra star ports with tech labs, and produce ravens 2 at a time, and vikings 2 at a time: Before I have ravens with seeker missiles and a good viking count I have already been pushed back to my 3 bases, and I can't hold off the attack. I just can't transition fast enough to deal with this composition.
The most success I've had vs Zerg in this situation is going for doom drops and heavy harass, hoping to catch the Zerg way off position. But this is risky and will likely turn into a bad trade if the Zerg stays defensive.
Thanks for any tips.
On September 20 2012 14:38 RoarMan wrote: Hello Ver
How do you stop infestor broodlords? I've been trying to use Ghosts again in a pure bio form against broods but they seem extremely inefficient. Vikings also seem to crumple. What do?
Honestly nobody has created a reliable method yet: every one relies on the Zerg making mistakes.
The ideal way is to have so much initiative that you can keep forcing trades/killing bases and never let them get critical mass. See Taeja/Revival on Entombed, MLG Raleigh, for an example.
There are three general theories. The first is to try and evade the BL army as long as possible by harassment and dispersing your forces. However, this approach depends on the Zerg being unable to spread creep/overlords/spores effectively to see your strikes coming. If those prerequisites are not in place, you can really throw them off balance. Once they are off balance, you can keep up the pressure. This style has declined in popularity drastically as Zergs have gotten better at handling it, but it is still possible. See Dream vs Sleep, Antiga, GESL; MMA vs Stephano, IPL4, Cloud Kingdom (pre-patch though). Taeja/Nestea, IPLTAC finals. Nestea moves out, Taeja runs in and sacks bases.
The more modern take on this is to combine the above with #3 below to force the Zerg to stay at home for a prolonged period due a threat of counterdrops, while building up a large raven/viking and later battlecruiser force at home. See MVP/Slivko, MVP/Nestea, from IEM Cologne.
The second is to try and bait them into an open area and get a massive surround with bio/thor/tank. Theoretically if they don't have critical mass you can engage in such a way that they can't fungal fast enough (due to being across multiple screens) and thus are unable to prevent you from getting in range. This however only works before 11-12 broods + support, at which point all your ground dies. Examples: Polt/DRG, Entombed, MLG Arena, Marineking/Golden, Metropolis, MLG Anaheim.
The last is to turtle and rush raven/vikings, with the aim of eventually getting battlecruisers. Seeker Missile does not actually hit the broods if the Zerg is good due to range difference; however, it can kill the corruptors. PDD is also extremely useful in keeping vikings alive.
The key is being able to engage at a planetary or an area where they can't kill your tanks easily. Ttanks/pfs are crucial for engaging bl blobs because you can snipe queens/infestors and help clean up infested terran/broodlings; the former especially will wreck you so easily.
On September 21 2012 01:51 Vildhjarta22 wrote: what is a sure fire way to scout incoming cheese (i.e. sentry drop in your main, ff on the ramp) from all these noobie protoss on the gold league ladder. is there a specific time i should save a scan for DT's or to scan their main to see exactly when the prism is coming? soooo much cheese from protoss. i used to play toss and didnt rely on all ins or anything, but now every protoss i come up against is cheesing or all ining me.. really discouraging me from even laddering now.
There is no surefire way. Scanning is usually a horrible solution because if they are smart they will hide or spread out their buildings. The most you can do is use your scv scout to reduce it to either 1 gas or 2 gas and use that to narrow down the possible options. Ideally you can sneak an scv into their main, but that is naturally not always possible.
In terms of general defending, your best bet is stim and then a fast rush to medivacs, with 3 bunkers at the front, a turret by 715, an scv patrolling a few screens in front of your bunkers, and most of your army in the main. This way you know if he starts to move on to the natural, while keeping your units in the main for safety against warp prism shenanigans or void rays.
On September 17 2012 13:23 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver
I fell in love with Byun's TvZ build he did against Nestea during the GSL quarterfinals and have been consistently using it, but since I do not end up getting cloak for the banshee would it be a good idea to delay the 2nd gas until you build the starport in order to get a faster 3rd cc since you can still do the initial part of the build with one gas, or would following the exact build be a better idea and just use the extra gas and mineral from not getting clock and putting it in something else such as stim or +1/+1.
Since by delaying the 2nd gas you would get about 100 mineral more per min allowing you to get the 3rd cc a lot sooner at around 5:30~5:35, but your starport would be delayed by a couple of secs due to being short ~20 gas since of the addition of the reactor.
Yes you can do this and just add the gas sas soon as. However, it is very handy to have cloak if the Zerg goes allin, because you can permanently deny their third then until they have lair. Thus you shouldn't write it off completely.
On September 19 2012 13:38 NoZyneighbor wrote: I was wondering what was your opinion of Bomber's TvZ build he did against DRG in GSL season 4 group H, in which he forgoes the hellion/banshee harass, instead opts for really fast 3 cc and go for a big marine tank push at around ~11:30 consisting of ~60 marine, 4 tanks, and 1 medivac with +1/+1.
Even though the zerg is left to its own devices, it hits at an early time than the regular ~13min +2/+2 push and still hits pretty hard especially when most zerg theses days will probably not be ready for it.
While it is very vulnerable in the beginning as you will suffer lots of damage or just straight up die to a 7:10 roach/ling or the ~9 min roach/bane/ling all ins
Ignoring the clear coinflip problem (a serious issue)...I feel it's good at taking advantage of stupid Zergs who only know how to 1a their army or Zergs whose creep is not ideal. Thus in general it may not be an 'ideal' build, as it lets the Zerg get too comfy, and may suffer versus top notch Zerg play. If you move out to attack and the Zerg does a ling/bane backstab, your entire plan just went kaput. Your army has no flexibility because you lack medivacs, hellions, or banshees, and if you lose any amount of scvs you either have to retreat and save the nat or 3rd (and thus abandon the timing/let the cycle repeat to your detriment). If you try to just sac your base to the backstab and push on, he can abandon a base and try to force stims while setting up a big flank on creep and you can never fight more than 1 battle due to no medivacs. Just doesn't feel very good.
In short, not bad for a one time use deal. But for a long term regular use strat? Questionable.
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
1. Depends how many bunkers he makes. The more he makes the harder it is for you to break but the easier it is to base trade and lift everything off. His army can't ever beat you in the open, so if you can evacuate everything and kill his cc you win.
If he doesn't really bunker you just elevator 2 meidvacs outside your base, pull scvs and attack with a giant flank leading with marauders when combat shield completes. You can generally stall long enough with bunkers to reach this point.
On September 20 2012 03:06 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: Great Thread! Is it better to get Stim or Combat Shield first in TvT? I thought CS was better, but I notice a lot of Korean Terran in the GSL going for stim first. What are your thoughts?
Thanks for your time
Combat shields is generally more useful vs gas first because stim comes far too late to do anything. Stim is more useful vs rax gas cloak in particular, and more helpful versus fast tank pushes. Getting combat shields first is safer vs most common pro openings (as pro's rarely tank push).
Against rax cc openings stim first is better because you can kill his banshee really easily if he goes cloak after expo.
On September 20 2012 04:27 NoZyneighbor wrote: If you did the expo into 3 rax combat shield then you can pull a couple scvs for buffer and meet him before he can siege, or if you opened 1 rax fe double gas then you should be able to delay his push long enough with a repaired bunker, that you will be able to get out your own siege tank and Viking to ward him off.
On September 20 2012 01:02 Kasu wrote: Hey all, having some problems with TvT - specifcally, ThorZaIN's gasless FE into 3rax with 2 fast reactors. (There is no TL guide, but this day[9] daily covers it).
I'd like to know two things:
1. What is the best way to defend against quick siege tank pushes? My marines have no chance attacking down my own ramp into 2-3+ siege tanks, but he will eventually leapfrog until he has my nat under siege. Can I stall until medivacs/stim and elevate out -> flank? Should I wait for my own (very delayed) tanks, pulling out of my natural if needs be?
2. Why does ThorZaIN go combat shields first? And should I be making a decision on CS or Stim first depending on what I scout?
Apologies for putting this in both the Help Me thread and the pro Q&A thread, but I wasn't sure where it fit best.
In order to defend against a quick siege tank push: You need to have your marines out on the map. As you pointed out if he sieges up at your natural you are screwed! You want to try and keep making him siege and unsiege when he moves out so you have time to get your own siege tech up or drop/ outmaneuver him. Hope this helps. GLHF
Thanks, very helpful! Scouting it early and slowing it/killing it before it can reach my base seems to be the universal response.
Am i the only one thinking this might actually apply here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLUHpVWqFAg It's a good, detailed guide about how you can stall him till you have stim+medivacs.
Yeah that's nice but it's really important to unload 2 medivacs, or at the very least one, behind his army, both to block reinforcements and to snipe his tanks from the rear/flank instead of 1a'ing down the ramp.
On September 20 2012 10:01 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hi Ver I have a question regarding the TvP matchup, currently I have been doing Bombers 5 rax pressure style, but since you are forced to be extremely defensive in the early part of the game as you are working off of naked raxes for most part of the early game.
I was wondering if a 1 rax fe in 3 rax stim timing with double reactor and one tech lab to hit the toss ~8:30 would work? As the push would hit them before they get any sort of templar or collosus tech out unless they rush for it the fastest possible way. While in the background you continue with a regular tvp gameplan, reactored starport, third cc, extra raxes, upgrades, etc.
The push does two things as it punishes tosses who tech too fast and also helps you find out what tech the toss is going for whether it be for storms or collossus
Maybe on Metalopolis but on any current map he's just going to forcefield you out and get way ahead because your tech is so delayed. This would only work as a coinflip to nexus into dt drop or something crazy, some NA doofus who goes double forge off 1 gateway or something (i,e not legit builds), and maybe the Parting build (or a greedier triple nexus build).
On September 16 2012 16:18 kollin wrote: Ver, I may be able to help organise the OP if you want. I assume it's just putting answers in appropriate spoilers and maybe linking vods/replays?
Are you volunteering to organize? It's a lot of busywork, and something has to be triaged. Rest assured it will get updated, but when and how often I cannot say.
I actually will volunteer to do that, if you want.
Yes! Thank you both very much.All I want is organize everything in a Q/A basis like in the OP currently and to link cited games. If you guys just want to post it in the thread when you've made some progress that'd make it easier to coordinate.
On September 28 2012 00:24 herMan wrote: Why do people say 1/1/1 against protoss is a bad build, figured out and not recommended if code S terrans still use it to kill protosses? The most recent I've seen is FXOasd vs MaNa.
It falls in under the type of builds which won't work if the opponent plays right but can take advantage of a player that either doesn't know how to handle it or is simply nervous and doesn't play at the required level because it is a tense match. Thus it isn't reliable and the outcome is mostly out of your control, but can work.
On September 28 2012 03:45 GhettoSheep wrote: What's a good game plan for TvP?
For instance in TvZ I do the standard Ghostking v. Nestea build and I know how the game is supposed to play out. I'm going to go for a 2/2 timing to kill his 4th while taking my own 4th and making the transition to deal with hive tech. (For me that's 2 more starports, 3rax's with techlabs and some ghost academies à la Kawaiirice.) I know if he goes broodlords my thor/marine/tank/viking can go decently well against it if I did damage with my push. I can then harass with nukes while trying to continually deny bases and eventually win the game. Same thing for ultras except I just make marauders instead of ghosts and I win with my economy and production as I should have 4 base to 3 if my 2/2 push is successful.
However when I play TvP I just do a standard 1rax fe into 3rax tech and then... that's it. I know I'm going to take map control when my first medivacs pop out. Then I'm going to take a third and get more rax's and upgrades. That's it though. I have no goals such as "timing attack at X time to delay/hinder his lategame army so I can win with some sort of advantage whether it's economy or tech. A lot of my TvP's start with me getting a supply and economy lead but being unable to deal any damage or kill him, and he just eventually just runs me over with colossus/storm/zealots and warpins even if he was behind in bases the whole game.
Maybe that's just how TvP works but I would much prefer a build where I can take the initiative like TvZ. I have a goal which is to kill the 4th, and I know how to turn the advantage into a win if I'm successful. Can TvP be approached that way? Or are there some good timing attack builds off a 1rax fe that function that way? I hate the "wander around the map looking for a good engagement" as I just lose the game if it goes poorly, and we end up even if I don't have a landslide victory.
Edit: On another note how do you defend against a 4gate warpprism after a 1rax fe (just played a game where I only scouted the 4 gates and got rocked in my main with 2 useless bunkers in my nat) and what are some good simcity principles against protoss?
Thanks, this thread is awesome.
You're right, standard TvP has a less specific game plan and is more about searching for any openings while transitioning onto the next stages. It's really difficult to teach because unless you are able to do damage with drops, you'll have a very hard time estimating when his tech transition will happen, which determines your timings completely.
Fortunately, there is a build (somewhat riskier) which lets you play that kind of initiative based plan you are seeking. It is essentially a rax cc into cloak banshee with a 3rd cc/double ebay. See Supernova vs MC on Cloud Kingdom and Daybreak (especially this game) from IEM. If you look closely supernova has a very mapped out plan using his banshees to occupy the protoss and keep them alive as a threat. Then he gets a raven, and loads up for a quad medivac + raven drop while rallying reinforcements over to the Protoss third. If the banshees stay alive the Protoss has a really awkward time discerning your intentions and you ideally can get in a rhythm where he is always one step behind. If you execute this well enough you should be able to attain some kind of superiority and be able to make a timing attack at his 3rd around 2-2 with ghost/viking while getting a 4th.
4 gate warp prism is an insanely strong allin. Ideally you want to stop him from landing by having an scv patrolling in front of the natural and moving your marines to the likely unload point. If you can delay long enough you'll get enough of a critical marine mass that he can't elevator anymore. If he does manage land at 640~, you need to pull ALL your scvs, group them all together with marines in the back, and kill everything because he can make a second round of warpins. If you alternate between amove/hold pos microing scvs you can reduce losses while keeping your marines alive the entire time.
On September 28 2012 05:32 ComBro1 wrote: How do you attack into Protosses once they have either AOE or charge? I prefer a style where I can constantly be aggressing, but when protosses tech very aggressively, I feel like I can't do any damage and at the same time, I feel uncomfortable teching to ghosts on less than 6 gasses. As a person who feels his multitask is his strongest suit, I really need help being able to attack and retreat against protoss, and charge really negates the retreat aspect I feel.
Charge is strong but before colossus it's also awkward for the Protoss to make use of because you can just kite him and blast away because charge carries him out of guardian shield range. If he tries to block with forcefields you just pick up your stranded units and his zealots run uselessly against a wall. Being able to kite perfectly is really crucial in getting cost efficient engagements, as is keeping your medivac count high. See Marineking vs Parting, GSTL finals, Entombed (rematch game), for a good example on how to continuously pressure him.
It depends what tech they go intially. You don't need to really rush ghosts because he can't be aggressive with his templars or you just kite him to death.( see Kas vs Parting, Daybreak. RSL2. Marineking vs Parting, Daybreak. KSL Finals) The templars just give him defensive stability for a certain period.
On September 28 2012 16:48 NoZyneighbor wrote: Hey Ver
I was able to successfully hold a roach bane ling allin, but I was wondering if there was anything else I can do to hold it better
Here is a replay of the match, I played really poorly after I held the allin, kind of got flustered http://drop.sc/258670
I think I could of sent most of my scvs back into the main, started marauder production faster, sent out the banshees farther to start harrassing his lings and roachs, maybe send out my hellions to kill his lings.
Thanks for the feedback
As I said in the OP I don't have time to watch replays, but from your description, one important thing with holding roach bane allins is to have your hellions in the main, firing down on anything on the ramp. He will suffer a lot extra damage on the tight ramp space and when hes under fire from the hellions, he might mess up and have his roaches block the banelings. You also need to prioritize scvs, because so long as you don't lose your wall and your hellions, you can't actually die, so it just comes down to minimizing damage. That means bringing them all into the main in time to close the wall. See Sheth vs Flash from the MvP on Ohana.
2 naked rax, the second hidden somewhere in my base/nat and being at the opponents ramp at 5.30 with a handful of marines and 2 scv's. If he doesn't expand right away I just fake pressure and expand myself asap. I usually try to contain him with two bunkers, leaving just before he has the units to crush them.
The 2rax with gas, moving out when I have my first marauder and researching concussive shells.
The 2rax with combat shield researched first, attacking when it finishes.
On October 04 2012 02:31 herMan wrote: What's your opinion on 2rax pressure in TvP?
I have three different variations:
2 naked rax, the second hidden somewhere in my base/nat and being at the opponents ramp at 5.30 with a handful of marines and 2 scv's. If he doesn't expand right away I just fake pressure and expand myself asap. I usually try to contain him with two bunkers, leaving just before he has the units to crush them.
The 2rax with gas, moving out when I have my first marauder and researching concussive shells.
The 2rax with combat shield researched first, attacking when it finishes.
Does any of this work at the highest level?
The only 2 rax used anymore is the reactor tech lab, usually conc shells, once in awhile stim. Certain Terrans (polt/mkp) love to 2 rax on Taldarim to hopefully coinflip greedy Protosses who get unlucky with scouting (or just scout late). Mana also just lost to a 2 rax in gsl I believe.
In general it's not very good, loses to a lot of builds outright, but beats a few builds outright. If you want to use it once in awhile, sure, but as a standard go to build, not viable.
On October 04 2012 08:38 sewergoat wrote: ok seriously how is this thread different from the terran help me thread?
Because Ver and theDwf are GM level, whereas most of the people who answer the questions in the terran help me thread that aren't highlighted posters are 1. Theorycrafting an answer 2. Leeching off of previous answers 3. Are barely better than the player asking the question With a few being in masters and actually knowing what they're talking about Besides, in case you haven't noticed there's a lot less of the lower-level questions and a lot more detailed answers.
Hi guys, I don't need a super detailed answer but would love to get some help with my T. I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server.
I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play
While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@
Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die.
I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting?
What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade?
Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me?
Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more?
@ETisME: Im top diamond terran, so take this with a grain of salt, Im definitely not the same level as Ver. When building barracks I have not run in to this problem of space, which leads me to ask, how are you doing your sim city? Usually you want neat vertical rows of buildings in your bases. Is there a specific map you have trouble with space on?
For medivacs I understand your problem. You have you entire bio army (with the medi's) on 1 hotkey. To load them and then move the still selected units that couldnt fit in the medivacs, you should ctrl shift click your marines and marauders, then load them in to the medivacs by clicking them. Dont select the medi's themselves. The same thing goes with kiting. Crtl shift click your bio units and stutter step them backwards. This way the medi's dont move with the army and will keep healing.
Don't drop vs mutas IMO. Drop vs infestor ling before they get infestors out. But yeah vs muta, instead of dropping, just go kill him. Seriously. Mutas are pretty crap units in a straight up fight. Put a few turrets and leave a few marines at home, and just go kill him.
On October 04 2012 11:56 ETisME wrote: Hi guys, I don't need a super detailed answer but would love to get some help with my T. I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server.
I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play
While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@
Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die.
I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting?
What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade?
Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me?
Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more?
High master terran here.
About the extra rax:
Learn to make your buildings neatly in rows to maximize the room in your main. When the game enters the late midgame I make extra production buildings in front of my natural. Also, you do not need twenty raxes, that is huge. Make addons.
About medivac micro:
I just select units and put them in the dropship, then stop all my forces and select the drop medivacs individually. If for example lings are closing in and going to surround your forces, move your medivacs on top of the marines so they can load up instantly and not bumble around while getting eaten.
Don't really know about the medivac healing while kiting on pro levels, someone could clarify this.
About dropping:
Nowadays zergs are getting better and betting at deflecting drops. Some do the smart thing and put spores and spines on their fringe bases (main, fourth etc.) which makes dropping there inefficient because you have to shoot the defensive structures first, allowing the zerg to bring forces to reinforce before you go do some real damage.
If you see this, try to spot weakness in the static defense and considering if you could drop your forces to the undefended side. If you can't I usually drop in proximity of the place I want to drop and stim all my marines from afar, picking them up when the defense arrives.
Using drops need good mechanics since you have to keep up with the zerg if he tries to counterattack. Mutalisks shut down drops pretty hard but you can try placing drops in position while waiting for the mutalisks to be out of position so you can do damage. Also with infestors being on the field you have to react quick if he tries to come and fungal you.
Because the game has been out for some time now, drops don't work the way they used to. It's no longer viable in the higher levels to just drop if you got nothing better to do.
Pros use them either not to do damage directly with the drop, but drawing back the zerg's forces so he can move his main army into a better position. The alternative being that he's posturing aggressively with his main army so the zerg is scared and musters his whole army, allowing the drop to do significantly more damage when there's no defense around.
Pros use them either not to do damage directly with the drop, but drawing back the zerg's forces so he can move his main army into a better position. The alternative being that he's posturing aggressively with his main army so the zerg is scared and musters his whole army, allowing the drop to do significantly more damage when there's no defense around.
Hope this helps.
Mid Master T and an avid fan of TaeJa's creep butchering style.
In addition to what herMan, if there is no base there or it's too heavily defended some opt just to take out creep tumours on that side of the map while moving with their main army. This will not only allow you to decrease zerg vision(obviously) but also forces their creep spreading queens into awkward positions that are easily killable and makes the base easier to snipe in the future.
People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play.
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it?
On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play.
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it?
Your same question has already been answered in the Terran Help Me Thread.
On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play.
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it?
Your same question has already been answered in the Terran Help Me Thread.
If you look at the post time they were both posted at roughly around the same time. And maybe he also wants a really high level players opinion on the matter?
On October 04 2012 11:56 ETisME wrote: Hi guys, I don't need a super detailed answer but would love to get some help with my T. I am a Plat Zerg in SEA (diamond Z in NA) and recently got an account from my friend and recently hit gold with random facing plat to diamond players at SEA server.
I use this TvP build in all matchup, which is 1 rax -> cc -> double gas 2 rax -> +1 atk medivac stim CS pure macro bio play
While this is working wonderfully, I am hoping to get some help on TvZ specifically: Where to build extra rax: The problem I have is that when rax number gets high, I just don't know where to put the rax. Sometimes I put in my third to help blocking but that stops me from putting PF there later on. towards 4 bases, I need around 20 rax in total. Barely got any room to put all these rax @@
Medivac micro related Do you just select your bio and right click onto the drop ship? what's the best way to deselect those who didn't get onto the ship? It is taking too long to load a drop ship and then pulls out those who are not in the ship. Sometimes when my marines are surrounded and I walk them to the ship, they just get stucked by the lings and can't get to the ship and die.
I find that when I am kiting, my medivac kites along and therefore not healing at all times. Do you normally kit by selecting all bio with mouse and just kite those? What if the medivac are out of position while kiting?
What's the biggest reason on not to get medviac energy upgrade?
Dropping. How? Seeing zergs put in spores in all their bases, is it better to just do medivac drop to somewhere far away and then stim them into the base? When do you do double drops? How to know if it is safe to drop? What if they counter attack? When I am loading units into the drop ship, one thing that worries me is what if he attacks now and I don't have my units with me?
Against a more aggressive zerg such as doing more runbys or muta, should I drop? One thing I recall when I play as Z is that if I play aggressive and get dropped, I take way more damage and if I use muta to defend the drop, I lose some muta and therefore have to be more defensive. But when I try dropping against an aggressive zerg, it doesn't look as if I have done enough damage to warrant the drop even after killing off one or two mutas with some drones. should I be pushing out immediately when I drop him? or should I turtle harder and just drop him, make him go defensive and turtle more?
Your tvp build does not make sense or is just mislabeled: you get the double gas either after the 2nd or 3rd barracks, not before; in addition the more refined form of it is not particularly viable versus Zerg.
You should almost never need 20 barracks. You rarely are going to be trading so much with such an amazing economy that you can utilize such production power. More than 12 is rarely seen, which should not be hard to fight in your base assuming you stash depots/tech buildings in corners and raxes in long rows with a hex or two in between.
It depends on the matchup but you usually move medivacs first over the units then right click to load them in. Just click on the medivac once its loaded, and shift click the others if needed, or control click if they are the only ones. For kiting, you either need to control click/lasso your bio units during battle, or keep them on their own hotkey to begin with, with your medivacs on a general a click. There's almost never a need to get medivac energy upgrade and a tech lab is really annoying in most cases.
The dropping is a really complicated question. Frankly dropping is very difficult and if you watch Taeja, he only uses drops for counters later on, occasionally an early double drop if Zerg has no map presence. Taeja vs Coca on Cloud Kingdom (IPLTAC Slayers vs Liquid) is probably the best example of Taeja's drop style. Infrequent, as he prefers big battles, but still devastating at the key moments. Dropping when he counters while defending with your army is very good IF your drop force is already in motion. If you take too long he'll have reinforcements out to handle it.
On October 04 2012 17:39 Jermman wrote: @ETisME: Im top diamond terran, so take this with a grain of salt, Im definitely not the same level as Ver. When building barracks I have not run in to this problem of space, which leads me to ask, how are you doing your sim city? Usually you want neat vertical rows of buildings in your bases. Is there a specific map you have trouble with space on?
For medivacs I understand your problem. You have you entire bio army (with the medi's) on 1 hotkey. To load them and then move the still selected units that couldnt fit in the medivacs, you should ctrl shift click your marines and marauders, then load them in to the medivacs by clicking them. Dont select the medi's themselves. The same thing goes with kiting. Crtl shift click your bio units and stutter step them backwards. This way the medi's dont move with the army and will keep healing.
Don't drop vs mutas IMO. Drop vs infestor ling before they get infestors out. But yeah vs muta, instead of dropping, just go kill him. Seriously. Mutas are pretty crap units in a straight up fight. Put a few turrets and leave a few marines at home, and just go kill him.
What? Muta/ling/bling is a lot stronger in a straight up fight than the equivalent infestor lair army. You can push vs infestor armies a lot earlier than vs mutas, as mutas will snipe your tanks and do too much damage until you have a strong enough tank/thor complement. In general it is also actually easier to drop vs mutas as the muta player is forced to be aggressive and once you know where his mutas are you can drop on the other side, then drop on the side where the mutas were because he has to send them to handle the first drop. The exception here though is that if they have no muta/corruptor you can kill off their overlords with a viking and remove their ability to see certain drops coming.
On October 07 2012 03:19 xPabt wrote: When going helion banshee 3CC into bio-tank is it better to suicide your helions for drones or keep them as long as possible to deny creep?
Is getting cloak worth it if you aren't going mech?
Any general advice on how to control the zergs creep spread?
Assuming he takes a fast third....it really depends on how many drones you can get. You need to kill a lot more than basic cost for it to be worth it (probably 3:1 at minimum), as losing those hellions hurts you a lot (see Taeja/Stephano on Whirlwind). It also depends on how he stations his queens. If his queens are at the edge of the creep, just run right by them. But if he keeps them near the chokes, then don't bother.
Yeah cloak is usually worth it; it is always worth it if he doesn't scout the port. At the very least you can use the banshees to permanently stop his creep until his overseer is ready. Without cloak he can push away anything at the edge of the creep with 3-4 queens but with cloak he cannot. See Taeja vs Revival on Entombed, MLG Raleigh. Taeja does no damage yet remains fine because he slows the creep a lot.
On October 04 2012 21:10 dynwar7 wrote: People have been saying MVp is well known for his strong defensive play.
Just what is this "defensive" people are talking about? Is it simply having enough tanks for early pressure? Or is ti a combination of having good game sense, timing etc, and having the appropriate defenses for it?
It's not a builds thing, it's a decision making and game sense aspect.
Mvp almost never dies to allins or random timing attacks by the Zerg. He knows when he needs to defend and how to position his units. There have been multiple GSL games, I believe at least two on Antiga, where the Zerg goes for a 3 base roach bane drop allin and Mvp either hits a miracle scan or knows its coming and defends his bases with excellent unit spread, almost forcing the Zerg to attempt a suicidal attack that flops, because they know Mvp will just wait until maxed and win a big battle. Fans may sit there thinking 'what on earth is this Zerg doing' but the Zerg was banking on Mvp being too aggressive (such as MMA vs Dongraegu on Antiga, Blizz cup).
He also knows when he misses his timing window and how to play catch up. Against Vortix on Ohana and Nerchio on Cloud Kingdom in IEM he realizes he can't do a pre-brood timing attack and thus begins his tech transition very early while staying on a defensive posture. Both Zergs try to take advantage of what they assume to be an unprepared Mvp, only to find him more than ready.
Lastly, I suggest you look at Supernova vs Vortix on Antiga and Mvp vs Vortix on Antiga from IEM. While Mvp also does an excellent job denying the 4th base, you can tell his defensive positioning is just a little bit better, which lets him win very easily.
On October 30 2012 12:10 knightwulf wrote: I have a simple question about a optimal 1 rax expo into rax, tech, 2xs reactor build. +1 medivac @10min timing
When do you get the ebay? After tech lab starts? after stim? after 3depot or before?
I am trying to get the gas timings to work out but they never time quite right with the reactors, ebay, and factory.
Also, is there a specific Build Order for reactor hellion into 2 armory 2 factory mech? Is there a free replay I could study?
For the last question I assume you are referring to the standard tvz mech build. I think Flash does it the best right now; if you have access to MvP look at Flash vs Sheth on Ohana and Daybreak. As for replays, look at MVP's games from IEM cologne, specifically vs nerchio on cloud kingdom and vortix on ohana.
I use filtersc MMMH build and it works sometimes. Is this build still viable or should I find a new build?
Find a new build; this was never viable in the first place, and its more optimized variant (with factory before the other addons) died after the queen patch. The safest and strongest current build these days is some variant of rax expo hellion banshee 3rd. Look at the Taeja/Leenock series for some ideas.
In all my matchups I prefer to put on some pressure early on and expand behind that rather than a 1rax expand. The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time.
For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much.
I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable?
I have completely given up on TvZ. I am a high masters Terran that struggles against diamond Zergs. SC2gears this season my winrate vs P and T is over 60%, and my winrate vs Z (which i have played almost as much as T and P combined) is 32%.
Are there any viable 2 base all ins? I see forGG doing a lot of helion banshee into marine medivac, opting not to make a 3rd cc.
Or should I try to mech?
I have lost a lot of motivation and passion for this game because of my TvZ
On October 31 2012 03:41 Thezzy wrote: In all my matchups I prefer to put on some pressure early on and expand behind that rather than a 1rax expand. The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time.
For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much.
I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable?
I don't think reapers have been good for a long time; they are predictable on non taldarim maps and everyone knows how to defend it now.
Probably the most stable and one of the safest TvT builds is gas rax banshee expand. However, you can't always be aggressive as generally you need to keep the banshee at home to hold off elevators.
A slightly older variant is thestc's build where you make 3 hellions before cc if they rax expo, then when you send the banshee into their main you run. There should be a replay of him vs drewbie on Daybreak from the first MLG Arena.
A newer version is Fantasy's build which I outlined above (utillized against major and kawaiirice in MvP, maybe in one of his proleague tvt's not sure).
On October 31 2012 07:13 Decado wrote: I have completely given up on TvZ. I am a high masters Terran that struggles against diamond Zergs. SC2gears this season my winrate vs P and T is over 60%, and my winrate vs Z (which i have played almost as much as T and P combined) is 32%.
Are there any viable 2 base all ins? I see forGG doing a lot of helion banshee into marine medivac, opting not to make a 3rd cc.
Or should I try to mech?
I have lost a lot of motivation and passion for this game because of my TvZ
Me too heh. One step forward, two steps back At the top of the ladder it gets to almost 65-80% Zerg.
There are no viable 2 base allins vs Zerg. Forgg's build is blah and relies 100% on the Zerg being lazy and not scouting, cause once Zerg scouts an allin they will just overrun you easily. On Cloud Kingdom you can do some stuff, like a bio/2 fact blue flame allin, and pray they don't roach, but that's about it.
Mech can work, though it's becoming harder and harder because you can't always know what he's doing but you have to adjust your timings of pushes/expos based on this nonexistent knowledge. I don't like mech but it's a lot easier to play than bio/tank, but both of them are brutally unforgiving and require you to never mess up (you are allowed maybe one major error to his 3 or 4).
If you are losing motivation but still want to play, I suggest you play as Zerg for awhile. It's really fun cause you know if you ever lose its 100% your fault and you get to see how it feels from the Zerg side. As Zerg favored as the matchup is, there are some things that can be really frustrating for Zergs to deal with it and it makes a world of difference to feel it.
On October 31 2012 03:41 Thezzy wrote: In all my matchups I prefer to put on some pressure early on and expand behind that rather than a 1rax expand. The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time.
For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much.
I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable?
I don't think reapers have been good for a long time; they are predictable on non taldarim maps and everyone knows how to defend it now.
Probably the most stable and one of the safest TvT builds is gas rax banshee expand. However, you can't always be aggressive as generally you need to keep the banshee at home to hold off elevators.
A slightly older variant is thestc's build where you make 3 hellions before cc if they rax expo, then when you send the banshee into their main you run. There should be a replay of him vs drewbie on Daybreak from the first MLG Arena.
A newer version is Fantasy's build which I outlined above (utillized against major and kawaiirice in MvP, maybe in one of his proleague tvt's not sure).
Thanks, I use a Banshee opening in my TvP and I'm quite comfortable with it so I'll try that out in TvT. One quick question though, why gas first? It would seem to make it obvious for my opponent that I am going Banshee whereas 12rax, 13 gas would leave some ambiguity.
In TvT matchup I use Thorzains build (Day9 daily #394). Question is, what is the correct/proper response to scouting CC first into bio/tank play. When it is 10 minutes, opponent is on more SCVs, similar amount of marines, medivacs popping out at same time. Difference is that he is on +1 +1 upgrades for bio, while my +1 attack is not finished. Then the game goes into expanding, but I can not approach my opponent when he has better upgrades and defenders advantage. Losing marines vs marines fight can really turn into snowball effect.
Is going for fast third an option here? Delay medivacs to catch up on upgrades? I know it is a bit detailed situation, but would like to know what to do next time I face it on ladder.
On November 06 2012 05:39 Wicek wrote: In TvT matchup I use Thorzains build (Day9 daily #394). Question is, what is the correct/proper response to scouting CC first into bio/tank play. When it is 10 minutes, opponent is on more SCVs, similar amount of marines, medivacs popping out at same time. Difference is that he is on +1 +1 upgrades for bio, while my +1 attack is not finished. Then the game goes into expanding, but I can not approach my opponent when he has better upgrades and defenders advantage. Losing marines vs marines fight can really turn into snowball effect.
Is going for fast third an option here? Delay medivacs to catch up on upgrades? I know it is a bit detailed situation, but would like to know what to do next time I face it on ladder.
If you want to stick religiously to mass marine opening, go 1 rax double FE in response
On October 31 2012 03:41 Thezzy wrote: In all my matchups I prefer to put on some pressure early on and expand behind that rather than a 1rax expand. The pressure doesn't need to kill my opponent but I feel uncomfortable leaving my opponent alone for any length of time.
For TvT I'm currently thinking about using the 3 fast reapers build (12 rax, 13 gas, 16rax, 18 orbital, gets 3 reapers at 5:00) but I was wondering if you know of any other TvT builds that put on some pressure (preferably before or at 7:00) without delaying an expansion horribly much.
I can think of a Cloakshee Expand and maybe a Hellion drop, but do you know which early TvT aggression builds are currently the most stable?
I don't think reapers have been good for a long time; they are predictable on non taldarim maps and everyone knows how to defend it now.
Probably the most stable and one of the safest TvT builds is gas rax banshee expand. However, you can't always be aggressive as generally you need to keep the banshee at home to hold off elevators.
A slightly older variant is thestc's build where you make 3 hellions before cc if they rax expo, then when you send the banshee into their main you run. There should be a replay of him vs drewbie on Daybreak from the first MLG Arena.
A newer version is Fantasy's build which I outlined above (utillized against major and kawaiirice in MvP, maybe in one of his proleague tvt's not sure).
Thanks, I use a Banshee opening in my TvP and I'm quite comfortable with it so I'll try that out in TvT. One quick question though, why gas first? It would seem to make it obvious for my opponent that I am going Banshee whereas 12rax, 13 gas would leave some ambiguity.
Gas first could mean reactor hellion drop, marine/hellion pressure, banshee expand, cloaked banshee, or 1-1-1. If anything, gas first leaves more ambiguity because you'll have your factory/port faster than 13 gas, leaving him less time to scout.
On November 06 2012 05:39 Wicek wrote: In TvT matchup I use Thorzains build (Day9 daily #394). Question is, what is the correct/proper response to scouting CC first into bio/tank play. When it is 10 minutes, opponent is on more SCVs, similar amount of marines, medivacs popping out at same time. Difference is that he is on +1 +1 upgrades for bio, while my +1 attack is not finished. Then the game goes into expanding, but I can not approach my opponent when he has better upgrades and defenders advantage. Losing marines vs marines fight can really turn into snowball effect.
Is going for fast third an option here? Delay medivacs to catch up on upgrades? I know it is a bit detailed situation, but would like to know what to do next time I face it on ladder.
Triple cc is the strongest build if they rax expand, and on larger maps its usually worth it to place it at the third itself and float it back if they do a 2 base timing (which is almost an auto loss for the 2 baser, as the 3 baser has more units, superior econ, and better upgrades after maybe a 30-60 second window if they cut scvs).
If you are both doing rax expo 3 rax medivac, except you are getting single upgrades and he is getting double upgrades, you need to leverage the asymmetry to take advantage of your strengths. This means that you avoid fighting when he is 1-1 to your 0-1, but instead wait for when you hit 1-1, as his 2-2 will not be done yet. At this point he will have sunk a lot of money into upgrades that have you not, which means you will have at least 2 more tanks than him (very important at this stage), and thus you must use that timing window to either force a fight or use the threat of a fight to gain a strong position or hurt his econ. The tank advantage generally compensates for upgrades, which means its crucial you fight sieged and don't ever engage piecemeal.
Also in even scenarios you are never supposed to be aggressive with marine/medivac only. Not only does it make you vulnerable to counter drops, but you also are almost guaranteed to lose if you attack him on his side of the map (he can prepare a better position most likely and he will have more units due to rally distance). And like you said, if you lose at all, it spirals out of control very quickly.
Hi ver, this is an amazing thread and I want to say I really appreciate what your doing here. I had two questions both relating to TvZ.
First I was hoping for some thoughts on ghost usage vs infestors. Lately I have been experimenting with adding a ghost academy as soon as i scout infestor tech. treating them alot like high Templar in tvp. I've been having pretty good results with it at a decently high masters level. However as far as I know, if ghosts are incorporated into the matchup at the pro level it is usually only in the late-late game. I have not seen a game where they are incorporated earlier on off of your third base. I was wondering what your stance on this as a pro player is.
Secondly I was also wondering how you deal with players who decide to simply go mass baneling in the mid game, investing nothing or very little into lair tech. I have been finding it frustrating because a zerg who is saving gas for banelings feels alot like a zerg who is saving gas for infestor tech, then all of a sudden if i don't have alot of tanks i just die. I don't really want to be restricted to making alot of tanks every game just in case they happen to go for this style. How should i be scouting/feeling this style out early enough to respond to it? Instead of having to blindly prepare for it just in case.
On November 07 2012 16:18 Micromancer wrote: Hi ver, this is an amazing thread and I want to say I really appreciate what your doing here. I had two questions both relating to TvZ.
First I was hoping for some thoughts on ghost usage vs infestors. Lately I have been experimenting with adding a ghost academy as soon as i scout infestor tech. treating them alot like high Templar in tvp. I've been having pretty good results with it at a decently high masters level. However as far as I know, if ghosts are incorporated into the matchup at the pro level it is usually only in the late-late game. I have not seen a game where they are incorporated earlier on off of your third base. I was wondering what your stance on this as a pro player is.
Secondly I was also wondering how you deal with players who decide to simply go mass baneling in the mid game, investing nothing or very little into lair tech. I have been finding it frustrating because a zerg who is saving gas for banelings feels alot like a zerg who is saving gas for infestor tech, then all of a sudden if i don't have alot of tanks i just die. I don't really want to be restricted to making alot of tanks every game just in case they happen to go for this style. How should i be scouting/feeling this style out early enough to respond to it? Instead of having to blindly prepare for it just in case.
Thanks
For a long time after snipe nerf I kept trying to rely on ghosts instead of vikings to beat hive tech because vikings obviously are a terrible unit against it. However, it was more of a gimmick than anything else due to the prohibitive cost. 3-4 base ghosts means you can't get viking raven. The only way you can beat bl/infestor without viking/raven is by sniping or emping every infestor then getting a big envelopment with marines. Unfortunately, this can be prevented simply by making 1-2 overseers or even just fungaling your ghosts if they are paying attention. Nuke harass is absolutely amazing and is so worth incorporating in, it's just, how do you avoid automatically dying to the 10-12 brood + infestor push that is almost impossible to survive against with viking/initial ravens anyway. I think if you have a really strong midgame initiative it might be possible to go ghosts first because theoretically you can keep him from attacking by nonstop nuking, giving you room to outmaneuver him and try to nail his infestors, but it feels too easy for Zerg to just spam overseers/spores to stop it once you get your initial few nukes off. But if you are behind, ghosts are impossible (then again if you're behind you're usually dead anyway).
However, ghosts are probably the optimal choice against ling/infestor/ultra armies. Gumiho's game vs b4 on daybreak from this season's code A is a good example of this. When they go ultras they have nothing to keep your ghosts out of infestor range, or even stop you from dropping ghosts on top like he did. And ultra/ling is pretty bad if it has no fungal/IT support. This also lets you reduce the number of tanks, which are actually very poor versus ultras, and focus more on thor/bio.
I experimented a lot with tankless styles (in particular bio/blue flame) and found every time after much frustration and trial/error that tanks are just better. Bio/blue flame is good vs infestor/ling but you cannot beat muta/ling/bling without tank/thor. Of course this does not mean you have to focus on tank production at the expense of initiative and bio/mediavcs early on, just that you need to incorporate them into your army for a 2-2 timing.
The answer to this depends on which kind of baneling timing. Are we talking about the 10-11 minute slight drone cut 3 base super aggressive ling/bane? This one is basically an allin because if you hold it you can keep pressuring the Zerg, stop his 4th, and keep forcing him to make banelings which suck. Banelings are absolutely abysmal at trying to fight in the confines of a Terran base, so the wisest move is to rally your marines to the confines of your nat, make any kind of wall needed, stagger marines out, and pull scvs to the main if necessary. Meanwhile your hellion/banshee should be kiting and whacking as much as they can. If you can manage to keep your hellions alive he can never go up your ramp, so if you pull everything into the main he can't actually do damage and wasted tons of gas for nothing. I think the best example of holding this is Taeja vs Lucky on Entombed Valley, from a code s group awhile back. Lucky makes probably 40 banelings on 3 base econ very early and does almost nothing with them despite facing only bio units.
If you are referring to something that occurs a minute or two later, it shouldn't be much of a problem. You should have some idea of what he's going from suiciding a marine to find his unit comp or just general initiative so all that's needed is to have your units pre spread off creep. Even if he kills your army, so long as he loses most of his, you come out ahead.
In general I think you should be overjoyed that your opponent is making any banelings at all: it means his broodlords will come later. I generally evaluate my position in TvZ based on the number of lair gas units I've forced to him to spend. To give an example, against optimal Zerg play if you don't force/kill any lair gas units he will have broods 1545-16 mins. Each army of banelings that he makes (10-20 generally) + infestors that you kill sets the initial 6-8 broods back another minute or so, which makes it harder for him to get out of this spiral so long as you keep pressuring. You can win games vs muta/ling/bling players despite losing every battle simply because you just drain all their gas and they can never transition out.
This is just something I've found on ladder recently versus protoss: I had just came back after a 4 month hiatus, and was immediately shocked at how well my outdated build worked versus protoss; I believe that I had used MKP's 2 rax marine marauder push with early concussive. This build was meant to be a poking push, but could also be used to outright kill 1 gate expands while establishing your own natural, as they were considered "greedy" builds back then. I have also noticed from watching pros that 1 gate expands are now fairly standard in PvT, and I'm wondering why terrans don't use the old timing to punish it? Link to the build: http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/2-rax/
I am diamond trying to make masters. I focus on stable, standard play as I believe that at my level macro and micro outweigh novel strategies. Against Z I do MVP's IEM mech build, bomber build against P, and I've been doing Thorzain's bio TvT. I was wondering if there is a better build that itsn't gimmicky to use in all of my TvT games. Thanks!
i want to change and adjust my opening depending on the opening of the Zerg in TvZ. I always mech.
My build orders are so far CC first into Reactor Hellion+Cloak Banshee+2 Armory and a 2 Fac BF Hellion Push.
What build should I prefer against gasless and gas opening of the Zerg? Maybe if the zerg gets gas i should use a banshee opening to be "more" safe and if the zerg uses a gasless opening a 2 Fac BF Push?
On November 08 2012 15:21 ThatAintFalco wrote: This is just something I've found on ladder recently versus protoss: I had just came back after a 4 month hiatus, and was immediately shocked at how well my outdated build worked versus protoss; I believe that I had used MKP's 2 rax marine marauder push with early concussive. This build was meant to be a poking push, but could also be used to outright kill 1 gate expands while establishing your own natural, as they were considered "greedy" builds back then. I have also noticed from watching pros that 1 gate expands are now fairly standard in PvT, and I'm wondering why terrans don't use the old timing to punish it? Link to the build: http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/2-rax/
2 rax does not “punish” 1 gate expand, at least not with the average current distance between bases. You can force one or several rounds or Warp depending on how well the initial fight went, but you can only get the Nexus if the Protoss player makes a mistake and/or reacts incorrectly.
I use this build from time to time on Entombed Valley on ladder, taking advantage of the 4 spawns and the 4 close patches (which means I can get a second Barracks before OC without being scouted if he went the wrong way with his scouting Probe), but you don't get much out of it. Even when you kill the Nexus, you are in danger because Protoss can just outproduce you with 5 gates or 4 gates Immortal pushes. I had several games in which I killed the Nexus but still lost to the various all-ins Protoss did as a follow-up despite having 4-5 Bunkers and SCVs ready. Most of the time I don't kill the Nexus and ends up roughly even because of some Probe kills (when Protoss pulls some to prevent your Bunker from being completed) and/or delayed Robotics, but I believe with ideal Protoss reaction you're definitely at a disadvantage and you're in an awful position if he goes something like Immortal + 6g pushes because your economy does not allow you to run several Barracks and Medivacs and upgrades and Bunkers the way a 1 rax expand does.
On November 08 2012 18:24 saaaa wrote: hi,
i want to change and adjust my opening depending on the opening of the Zerg in TvZ. I always mech.
My build orders are so far CC first into Reactor Hellion+Cloak Banshee+2 Armory and a 2 Fac BF Hellion Push.
What build should I prefer against gasless and gas opening of the Zerg? Maybe if the zerg gets gas i should use a banshee opening to be "more" safe and if the zerg uses a gasless opening a 2 Fac BF Push?
Thing is, you can't know. Both gas and gasless openings can mean anything—well, not anything because you can rule out certain things depending on the absence or the timing of the gas, but upon scouting gas or no gas you definitely cannot know if he intends to be agressive or not. If Zerg starts gasless it can still mean a Roach attack (with 2 gases taken when Zerglings are out) or a Roach Baneling bust later, and you can only deduce certain things when your two first Hellions poke his natural, by which time you should have already committed to your second Factory or Starport anyway.
The main advantage with Cloak Banshees is that you can fly over the Zerg bases (avoiding Spore areas of course) and see what tech he's heading for instead of blindly scanning and then cursing because he happened to make his tech in another area. Besides, BFs pushes are simply stopped dead by proper building placement: one Queen + one Spine + two Evolution Chambers (or additional buildings if the entrance is wide) means you can't get through. I only use BFH openings against Zergs who mainly use Speedlings for defence, and even then I feel like I'm just gambling... You know, that awful feeling when you see the Queen/Spine/Evolution Chamber wall with the other Queens behind having enough energy to chain Transfuse the Queen at the wall.
As for my question, I see a lot of CC first and 1rax expand builds in TvZ, but not much else. I generally prefer to be aggressive early on and expand behind that aggression than to let Zerg build up to that magical drone count uncontested. Instead of going straight for the expansion first, could going Hellion first (standard Hellion expand), then CC and then Banshees still apply enough pressure on Zerg early on to force some non-drones or Spines or would it just delay the CC?
12/14 rax would be the other opening I'm considering but Zerg seems to be able to hold that off easily using just a Queen and a few lings. The only other option I see besides those would be a Reaper opening but I'm unsure if they are still good with range 5 Queens or a Cloak Banshee CC but I think the CC is delayed too much then.
Do you feel it is required for Terran to go CC first/1rax in TvZ or are there more aggressive openings possible?
On November 09 2012 20:23 Thezzy wrote: Great thread Ver, we need more of these
As for my question, I see a lot of CC first and 1rax expand builds in TvZ, but not much else. I generally prefer to be aggressive early on and expand behind that aggression than to let Zerg build up to that magical drone count uncontested. Instead of going straight for the expansion first, could going Hellion first (standard Hellion expand), then CC and then Banshees still apply enough pressure on Zerg early on to force some non-drones or Spines or would it just delay the CC?
Sadly Queen range 5 made Reactor Hellion expands obsolete. You can no longer physically prevent the Drone from reaching the third to expand, you can no longer prevent creep spread and Queens can defend on their own without Spines or Zerglings, so you're just left with a later expand for nothing.
On November 09 2012 20:23 Thezzy wrote: 12/14 rax would be the other opening I'm considering but Zerg seems to be able to hold that off easily using just a Queen and a few lings.
And, worst of all, they can defend 12/14 while still going on with their gas opening, which leaves you in a very awful spot afterwards. Whenever I play 2 rax, I only play 11/11 (forward or proxy) as it forces no gas (or they have to sacrifice their natural if they wish to mine), one or two Spines, only one Queen for a while and several pairs of Zerglings. Obviously you have to play your 11/11 differently if you wish to follow with a macro game or if you want to all-in (this ambiguity precisely being one of the strengths of this opening).
My 11/11 is probably one of the worst on the planet, any general advice? I usually do a proxy and then get surrounded, and I'm never ever sure if I'm ahead or not.
And how different is an 11/11 in TvZ vs TvP in terms of execution (other than fighting at the nat vs fighting at the main)
When playing TvP, what is the logic in doing a 1rax FE and making a second depot before expanding to trap a scouting probe in your base? Is it because it prevents the same probe from planting pylons or some cheesy building near your base, or does it get you economically ahead/even?
When 2raxing either protoss or zerg, what is the proper micro really? People have been talking bout hold position micro of the workers and I just attack the drones with scvs -> retreat -> repeat while the marines shoot in the back.
On November 10 2012 22:49 herMan wrote: Glad to see this thread still alive.
A few new questions (im high master terran):
When playing TvP, what is the logic in doing a 1rax FE and making a second depot before expanding to trap a scouting probe in your base? Is it because it prevents the same probe from planting pylons or some cheesy building near your base, or does it get you economically ahead/even?
When 2raxing either protoss or zerg, what is the proper micro really? People have been talking bout hold position micro of the workers and I just attack the drones with scvs -> retreat -> repeat while the marines shoot in the back.
Depot before expand would allow you to continue marine production, which means you can delay your bunker in favor of earlier additional rax and gasses.
I would imagine that trapping the probe is an added perk since Toss can't be sure whether you're expanding or marine scv all-inning him.
On November 10 2012 22:49 herMan wrote: Glad to see this thread still alive.
A few new questions (im high master terran):
When playing TvP, what is the logic in doing a 1rax FE and making a second depot before expanding to trap a scouting probe in your base? Is it because it prevents the same probe from planting pylons or some cheesy building near your base, or does it get you economically ahead/even?
When 2raxing either protoss or zerg, what is the proper micro really? People have been talking bout hold position micro of the workers and I just attack the drones with scvs -> retreat -> repeat while the marines shoot in the back.
Thanks Keep asking away!
The main reason to do this is to make the protoss afraid of a 2nd proxied rax so they aren't so greedy with their nexus, build, and chronos. The logic is that if the Terran would do something so inefficient (1 probe is definitely not worth it) then they might be hiding a cheese because now his probe can't scout your expo.
I'm hardly an expert on 11/11, which is a big deficit in my play, but in general you want to keep your scvs as close to your marines as possible so they form a shield. Ideally you want your scvs to take all the damage, so in the end he loses his critical mass while you can keep building up your marine count. In these engagements marine power increases exponentially from 3->5 so if you can trade off workers and reach that point, you're in a strong position.
On November 10 2012 13:33 sicueft wrote: Is it viable to go sky + mech on two bases? I'm a diamond Terran and I've been trying different mixtures of unit combinations against Zerg.
Nope If you mean banshees + mech, then just do the normal triple cc build that Flash does all the time. You can see it a lot in MvP. You should never be doing 2 base builds TvZ in general. You can't actually add ravens/BCs to your army until you have at minimum 4 if not 5 base income because they are so slow and expensive.
On November 08 2012 21:31 minimalistic wrote: Hi there,
Do you guys have any experience playing against this?
Yup for good reason, it's really strong and safe. The best way to get advantages for it is with triple cc, as that's the coinflip (this is how Mvp beat Rain on Antiga) and play as greedy as possible. It's a build that is designed to neutralize pressure and make sure the Protoss can enter the lategame. So make sure you plant your 3rd cc at your 3rd, rush that armory and 2nd ebay, and grab a fast 4th. You should be able to pressure a lot later as you'll max first and it will be awkward for him to take a 4th.
edit: Monk informed me that Rain's build is slightly different as he rushes charge, but if you are going triple cc it should end up roughly the same either way.
Also look at Parting vs Mvp (gsl semis) on Metro, where Parting fails to hold a simple 4 medivac drop. Even this build is a little bit fragile if you can knock out observers as he relies 100% on intercepting drops; once they land in that brief window before charge finishes you can really hurt if not win outright.
On November 08 2012 15:45 bmoneyAK wrote: Hi,
I am diamond trying to make masters. I focus on stable, standard play as I believe that at my level macro and micro outweigh novel strategies. Against Z I do MVP's IEM mech build, bomber build against P, and I've been doing Thorzain's bio TvT. I was wondering if there is a better build that itsn't gimmicky to use in all of my TvT games. Thanks!
Thorzain's build is not gimmicky, it's just very razor's edge. Mess up a bit and you die. Gas first banshee expo or rax cc double gas fact port are considered the 'safe' macro builds.
On November 08 2012 15:21 ThatAintFalco wrote: This is just something I've found on ladder recently versus protoss: I had just came back after a 4 month hiatus, and was immediately shocked at how well my outdated build worked versus protoss; I believe that I had used MKP's 2 rax marine marauder push with early concussive. This build was meant to be a poking push, but could also be used to outright kill 1 gate expands while establishing your own natural, as they were considered "greedy" builds back then. I have also noticed from watching pros that 1 gate expands are now fairly standard in PvT, and I'm wondering why terrans don't use the old timing to punish it? Link to the build: http://www.gosubuilds.com/terran-build-orders-2/terran-vs-protoss/2-rax/
This is one of those instances where you'll be able to beat baddies with an inferior build as they rarely ever see it and it's easy to punish sloppy mistakes with, but once you get higher the only time it will ever work is as a coinflip where the Protoss rushes robo or chronos probes too much.
On November 10 2012 22:49 herMan wrote: Glad to see this thread still alive.
A few new questions (im high master terran):
When playing TvP, what is the logic in doing a 1rax FE and making a second depot before expanding to trap a scouting probe in your base? Is it because it prevents the same probe from planting pylons or some cheesy building near your base, or does it get you economically ahead/even?
When 2raxing either protoss or zerg, what is the proper micro really? People have been talking bout hold position micro of the workers and I just attack the drones with scvs -> retreat -> repeat while the marines shoot in the back.
Thanks Keep asking away!
The main reason to do this is to make the protoss afraid of a 2nd proxied rax so they aren't so greedy with their nexus, build, and chronos. The logic is that if the Terran would do something so inefficient (1 probe is definitely not worth it) then they might be hiding a cheese because now his probe can't scout your expo.
I'm hardly an expert on 11/11, which is a big deficit in my play, but in general you want to keep your scvs as close to your marines as possible so they form a shield. Ideally you want your scvs to take all the damage, so in the end he loses his critical mass while you can keep building up your marine count. In these engagements marine power increases exponentially from 3->5 so if you can trade off workers and reach that point, you're in a strong position.
so basically don't bother with 12/14, and instead if you want 2rax, go with 11/11 what about 12/12 or 11/12 variants? just wondering.
(hmm I should probably learn to proxy my first rax even when I'm 1rax fe'ing in the first place too...)
EDIT: also what's the difference between macro and allin plays on 11/11, I know before you said it's like 3 scvs for more macro version and 5(+) scvs for the all-in version (in which case why don't you bring all except for like 2 o.o) but what else?
I am diamond trying to make masters. I focus on stable, standard play as I believe that at my level macro and micro outweigh novel strategies. Against Z I do MVP's IEM mech build, bomber build against P, and I've been doing Thorzain's bio TvT. I was wondering if there is a better build that itsn't gimmicky to use in all of my TvT games. Thanks!
Thorzain's build is not gimmicky, it's just very razor's edge. Mess up a bit and you die. Gas first banshee expo or rax cc double gas fact port are considered the 'safe' macro builds.
also wondering about this
so - rax gas banshee and - rax gas marine hellion drop
On November 10 2012 01:28 Chaggi wrote: My 11/11 is probably one of the worst on the planet, any general advice? I usually do a proxy and then get surrounded, and I'm never ever sure if I'm ahead or not.
And how different is an 11/11 in TvZ vs TvP in terms of execution (other than fighting at the nat vs fighting at the main)
On November 10 2012 22:49 herMan wrote: When 2raxing either protoss or zerg, what is the proper micro really? People have been talking bout hold position micro of the workers and I just attack the drones with scvs -> retreat -> repeat while the marines shoot in the back.
On November 11 2012 11:14 zhurai wrote: so basically don't bother with 12/14, and instead if you want 2rax, go with 11/11 what about 12/12 or 11/12 variants? just wondering.
(hmm I should probably learn to proxy my first rax even when I'm 1rax fe'ing in the first place too...)
EDIT: also what's the difference between macro and allin plays on 11/11, I know before you said it's like 3 scvs for more macro version and 5(+) scvs for the all-in version (in which case why don't you bring all except for like 2 o.o) but what else?
Ah, 11/11. One could probably write a book about this single opening. So many parameters, so many subtleties.
The way you play 11/11 (against Zerg) depends on whether you want to all-in or pressure heavily. Naturally, the closer your Barracks are to his base, the more SCVs you pull, the more SCVs you cut (to start Bunkers earlier), the more you have to damage.
Having your first 3 Marines surrounded is the thing you want to avoid as it stops dead your attack. They have to survive until Marines 4 and 5 join the party (after which you kill workers much faster); it means that you have to temporarily retreat if your opponent pulls 10+ workers while your reinforcing SCVs are still on the way.
Whenever I play 11/11 with the intention to get a macro game I now build my first Bunker at the bottom of his natural's ramp. I think there was a SuperNova vs Snute game on Ohana @ Campus Party Europe which exemplifies this; the Bunker at the bottom of the ramp supports your attack (preventing Zerglings/Drones from chasing your Marines too far) while containing the Zerg should you fail to complete a second Bunker in front of the Hatchery.
If you want to play macro behind a proxy (proxy ≠ forward; say it's proxy when your Barracks are around his Tower [Ohana, CK], forward when it's on your natural's ramp or slightly more advanced), you have to be more conservative with your Marines because you don't want to be in this awful spot in which you have to fly back both your Barracks without any Marines behind your wall. (If you don't want to all-in, be sure to build your Depots as part of the wall.)
Knowing whether you're ahead or not can be difficult, yes, as it depends on many things: how many Drones you killed, how many SCVs you lost (beware, unintentionnally cutting SCVs because you're busy microing also really hurts), did you retain map control, are you able to build your expand directly on your natural, how many Spines did he make, how many Zerglings did you force, did he delay his first Queen, etc. Counting Drone kills can help; Zergs have 15-17 Drones (to 13 SCVs before OC is done) then usually go full Zerglings until your attack is stopped. Each completed Spine also counts as a Drone kill. If you don't see a Queen spawning at ~4'50-5'00 at the natural it also indicates that the Zerg is likely still at the Stone Age.
You don't bring all SCVs but 2 when all-inning because you need a bit more to afford an additional Depot and constant Marine production. As far as I remember pulling 7 additional SCVs (+2 that built Barracks = 9 total) already makes it difficult to afford a second Supply Depot. See Polt vs Symbol @ the IEM Guangzhou Korean Qualifier, both games.
SCV micro is a mixture of attacking, retreating and holding position to protect Marines. You have to use corners + SCVs to make sure your Marines are not going to be surrounded and killed.
Against Protoss you don't have to ask yourself those questions as you're essentially forced into proxy 11/11 with several additional SCVs pulled because of Stalkers reigning supreme against Marines / walls not protecting you / Warpgate easily killing you should you fail. I play them the way Mvp did against Squirtle, with Supply Call first (you don't build your first Depot as part of the wall to save minerals) instead of MULE first: since you have to pull many SCVs and you have to start your Bunker near his ramp as soon as possible you don't have enough minerals to start a second Depot (or if you do, I feel it weakens your attack too much as it delays your first Bunker).
Against Protoss macro games out of proxy 11/11 may happen but they're more of an accident, you basically start with the intention to kill him with the attack yet sometimes you will be allowed/forced to transition if (a) you killed enough Probes, (b) couldn't go on with your attack for some reason (mainly because of Stalkers preventing you from advancing because you didn't succeed in completing a Bunker) but (c) you managed to retreat some Marines at home to get a Bunker up. I did have 2 macro games out of the 20, 25 or 30 (don't know the exact amount) games in which I played 11/11 against Protoss last season, so it's possible but unlike vs Zerg you can't really plan it to be this way from the start of the game, as said above it's a “OK, time for the back-up plan” thing.
Proxy 11/11 is not really reliable against Protoss because (a) some Protoss 9-scout and (b) some don't scout but get 2 Zealots before Stalker, and dealing with an early Zealot is horrible, whether he heads towards your undefended base (no wall) or stay around to scout/defend. Besides, the distance is shorter for workers to defend since you start the first Bunker in his main, and when out Stalkers get free shots thanks to shields / superior range / superior movement speed, so it's mostly a race against the clock to get a Bunker in range of the Nexus.
Other than that, 11/11 is also what I do (inbase) whenever a Protoss goes 10/10 in my base.
11/11 vs 11/12 vs 12/12: to me it's a matter of SCV movement. I send my 9th SCV to the ramp to make a Depot, which finishes around the 1'30 mark; so if I want to make my first Barracks just at the natural's ramp with the same SCV, I cannot have a 1'30 11 Barracks since my SCV has to go down the ramp and walk a bit further (and bringing back this SCV to mine while pulling another to build the first Barracks would waste some minerals). With this movement, I have at best a ~1'37 Barracks anyway, so I might as well start a 12th SCV right away since it does not delay the first Barracks. Thus I have 12/12 instead of 11/11.
On Ohana I make my second proxy Barracks with the SCV which builds the first Depot as part of the wall. But by the time he reaches the location just outside of his Tower's range, I sometimes pool 200 minerals, so I might as well start the 12th SCV after starting the first Barracks. Thus I have 11/12 instead of 11/11.
On November 10 2012 13:33 sicueft wrote: Is it viable to go sky + mech on two bases? I'm a diamond Terran and I've been trying different mixtures of unit combinations against Zerg.
I don't know if that fits what you call “sky + mech” on 2 bases, but there are some 2-port banshees builds with a mech transition (e. g. GuMiho vs HyuN recently on Metropolis at an IGN event, maybe IPTL FXO vs TSL; I've also seen SuperNova and Bomber do those on their streams). 2-port banshees is cheesy, of course, and you absolutely have to deny Overlord sacrifices but it can wreak some havoc against an unprepared 3-bases Zerg with late Lair since 4 Banshees 2-shot Queens; if Zerg carelessly loses his extra Queens he's forced to start many Spores at each base, and to build Queens non-stop out of his 2 Hatcheries (since one of them is likely morphing into Lair). This also forces Mutalisks as an answer to chase Banshees, so you can prepare accordingly. This build is extremely fragile, though, as it relies on (a) Zerg not scouting it, (b) Zerg not being able to bring together his 6 Queens (so it's better on maps in which there's more distance between the main and the third base) and (c) hitting and doing enough damage before Zerg is able to get Mutalisks out. But if you like unorthodox and iffy things, you might give it a try. Obviously it fails miserably against 2-bases Lair builds (including builds in which Zerg does take his third but doesn't saturate it).
On November 10 2012 13:33 sicueft wrote: also wondering about this
so - rax gas banshee and - rax gas marine hellion drop
aren't considered safe macro builds? :/
Barracks first Marine/Hellions elevators builds are safe but they do require some damage against certain builds. Against most builds a gas first Banshee is basically guaranteed some SCVs kills (even if your opponent knows the Banshee is coming), and you can adapt your expand timing depending on what your opponent is doing: for example against 1 rax FE you can entirely cut units before the Banshee to get a much faster CC, while a Marine/Hellion elevator expand has to get his units anyway (which delays the CC) but is not guaranteed any kill as some builds can stop it dead / your opponent can prevent your units from being landed; hence why gas first Banshee expands are more “all-around” than Marine/Hellions elevators for a macro game.
what are the pros and cons to thorzain bio build versus 1 rax expo/double gas/fact/port in tvt? Can you compare and contrast the former and latter? With Thorzain's build, I try and safely take a third, get my upgrades and another factory and more rax. Thanks.
As a Midmasters Zerg I completely crush mech flat in its track, yet I die a horrible and one-sided death vs proper bio play. It seems like a Terran on three bases with Bio can make an insane amount of MMM with a sprinkle of tank support.
Once the Bio starts going with upgrades, spreads and multitasking I feel like I am on a timer as Zerg to get out Broodlords. I have yet to trade efficiently enough to actually overpower that kind of army composition with just Ling/Bling/Infestor. Is there a way, besides getting off baneling bombs, to stop a competent Terran from snowballing with his bio/tank composition?
On November 12 2012 18:05 Keilkan wrote: As a Midmasters Zerg I completely crush mech flat in its track, yet I die a horrible and one-sided death vs proper bio play. It seems like a Terran on three bases with Bio can make an insane amount of MMM with a sprinkle of tank support.
Once the Bio starts going with upgrades, spreads and multitasking I feel like I am on a timer as Zerg to get out Broodlords. I have yet to trade efficiently enough to actually overpower that kind of army composition with just Ling/Bling/Infestor. Is there a way, besides getting off baneling bombs, to stop a competent Terran from snowballing with his bio/tank composition?
when terrans play fast 3rd marine tank they do some pressure opening into a 2-2 timing push. This can get crushed by max out ling bling if you have good creep spread and flank from multiple sides. If you push in from just one side and don't have banelings spread out more than likely they target fire and you lose, which is probably what you do. muta or infestor are fine; mutas target tanks and infestors get imba fungals (you shouldn't really need it though).
What could Ryung have done better in game 3 vs Curious other than having a PF wall at his 4th/5th base to defend the ultra counter attack better?
yea i watched that game the tech switches are ludicrious (from bl/festor -> 18+ ultras -> bls again) all the while supplementing the army with winfestor backbone. even if terran knows this is still extremely hard to get the balance in your compo correctly, which ryung didnt and fell apart.
actually ryung lose cos he lost his 4th to the ultras. he didnt have much of an army after the broodlord engagement and thus have to sack the 4th curious did well to deflect hellion harass in his extra bases with...blings and spines of all things
anyway how do you fend off mass roach drops when going mech in 3 bases? it seems zerg can do some serious damage if they are committed and zerg does some multi prong drops (eg. most on main some on 3rd.)
Hi guys, I'm a meching terran at masters level and I have a question regarding the follow up after 1 rax fe.
There seems to be two variations now: 1) Cloaked banshee + hellion 2) 2 Fact BFH (around 10-11) + Viking
Question: 1) Which should I choose based on my scouting infomation? I tend to go for 2 fact BFH if I scout no gas, since the zerg should presumably take his third, whilst relying on mass lings for defence 2) How should I react if Zerg is safety walled off behind spines and evo chambers? I feel lost whenever I run into this whgen going for the second option - It feels as if my BFH upgrade does not pay off, as I am unable to kill drones/lings 3) Any tips for an effective harassment? Specifically, should I target down if zerg has taken a 3rd hatch?
Hi guys, I'm a meching terran at masters level and I have a question regarding the follow up after 1 rax fe.
There seems to be two variations now: 1) Cloaked banshee + hellion 2) 2 Fact BFH (around 10-11) + Viking
Question: 1) Which should I choose based on my scouting infomation? I tend to go for 2 fact BFH if I scout no gas, since the zerg should presumably take his third, whilst relying on mass lings for defence 2) How should I react if Zerg is safety walled off behind spines and evo chambers? I feel lost whenever I run into this whgen going for the second option - It feels as if my BFH upgrade does not pay off, as I am unable to kill drones/lings 3) Any tips for an effective harassment? Specifically, should I target down if zerg has taken a 3rd hatch?
Thanks!
Delay his third, and creep spread while taking 3rd; be ready for muta to come.
Do you guys have any experience playing against this?
Yup for good reason, it's really strong and safe. The best way to get advantages for it is with triple cc, as that's the coinflip (this is how Mvp beat Rain on Antiga) and play as greedy as possible. It's a build that is designed to neutralize pressure and make sure the Protoss can enter the lategame. So make sure you plant your 3rd cc at your 3rd, rush that armory and 2nd ebay, and grab a fast 4th. You should be able to pressure a lot later as you'll max first and it will be awkward for him to take a 4th.
edit: Monk informed me that Rain's build is slightly different as he rushes charge, but if you are going triple cc it should end up roughly the same either way.
Also look at Parting vs Mvp (gsl semis) on Metro, where Parting fails to hold a simple 4 medivac drop. Even this build is a little bit fragile if you can knock out observers as he relies 100% on intercepting drops; once they land in that brief window before charge finishes you can really hurt if not win outright.
Do you have any solid terran replay example for the above? I am really struggling against this kind of play, and would be nice to see somebody pulling off some magic against it. Thank you.
Hi Ver, in your opinion what are the best 3 cheeses for TvP at the moment. I know a month ago or so you said it was hellion marauder, and that is immensely strong, but do you have any thoughts on other all ins?
On November 11 2012 21:56 4tre55 wrote: I know this has been discussed before, but in what order dou you engage a lategame protoss army composition the best way?
I usually try to (in that order): blanket emp's with (hopefully leading) ghostst shift-click vikings trough all collossus spread army stim kite
A bit off.
1) Pre spread 2) Snipe/emp 3) Stim (this should happen above 2 if no templar are in the front) + engage vikings slightly beforehand. 4) emp 5) kite 6) vikings
Stim, big envelopment, and making sure he can't land a storm are your biggest priorities. If you have lots of ghosts you can only partially kite certain groups back, while ghostless armies should kite nonstop unless he's mostly stalker. Taeja often uses his ghosts to absorb the charge and then pulls them back.
On November 12 2012 18:05 Keilkan wrote: As a Midmasters Zerg I completely crush mech flat in its track, yet I die a horrible and one-sided death vs proper bio play. It seems like a Terran on three bases with Bio can make an insane amount of MMM with a sprinkle of tank support.
Once the Bio starts going with upgrades, spreads and multitasking I feel like I am on a timer as Zerg to get out Broodlords. I have yet to trade efficiently enough to actually overpower that kind of army composition with just Ling/Bling/Infestor. Is there a way, besides getting off baneling bombs, to stop a competent Terran from snowballing with his bio/tank composition?
It's cause mech is very easy to play against while bio is hard on both sides. When I play people equal to me in TvT with my Zerg I can routinely beat them going mech but only can hurt their bio on really imba maps like cloud.
I am almost certain your creep spread is at fault here, because muta/ling/bling WILL beat anything but a 10+ tank/thor maxed army on creep. Infestor armies are a bit worse versus perfect micro. I'd go through a checklist:
1) What's your creep level? Is it at the middle at 930-1030 (depending on focus of hellion/banshee), and at their natural/ramp by 1230-13? That's ideal creep spread, so use that as your goal.
2) As Kawaii said, are you dispersing your banes and getting flanks in? A lot of zergs don't bother to set up attacks at all, i,e spreading their army in a giant arc so it crashes down in a large envelopment rather than a big line with clumped banes. If you want an example of a simple yet strong flank, look at Miya vs Taeja on Atlantis Spaceship from Slayers/Liquid in IPLTAC3. Also make sure you micro banes so they don't all detonate on spread tanks/thors. If you are using mutas you should queue them up to kill all his tanks (monster vs taeja, ipltl, entombed).
3) If you have infestors, are you burrowing one underneath his army to follow it around and then lead any attack with infested terrans?
4) Are you charging at him with feints to force stims and sieges, then retreating at little cost?
5) Backstabs. Every time he moves out, run some lings or ling/bane in. On some maps it's only so-so but still good (entombed) while on others it's completely imbalanced and virtually forces mech (cloud). Zerg doesn't have to micro much so if you force a two-front battle simultaneously, he's going to be screwed because he can't spread and focus at both spots. I've lost games where a backstab hits right as I'm pushing into his 4th and I have to look away to deal with it for a couple seconds, during which time my entire army clumps and I lose the game to a fungal.
On November 12 2012 16:18 bmoneyAK wrote: what are the pros and cons to thorzain bio build versus 1 rax expo/double gas/fact/port in tvt? Can you compare and contrast the former and latter? With Thorzain's build, I try and safely take a third, get my upgrades and another factory and more rax. Thanks.
Going to assume bio here, because if you're going mech fact port is a no brainer.
rax cc fact port is safer overall and has a larger margin of error. rax cc bio has very very little margin of error vs allins. If both players are going 14cc/rax cc, then the 3 rax tech player has a superior initiative in the midgame, can take their third cc at their third and thus be mining from it faster, and ready a backstab force for any kind of push out. The fact port player will have a larger tank count (think 7 or so tanks to 4-5), and if they went banshee they have opportunity for some harass (but mostly only if the other player doesn't scan, as it's easy to block and you'll have stim soon).
Against greedy 1 base expo builds (some idiots will try to triple cc off of gas first banshee or something), rax cc double gas lets you punish them by doing a 3 tank/marine/viking timing, while bio would have to wait until medivacs are out by which time they'd probably have siege mode.
On November 12 2012 23:32 ThaSlayer wrote: Hi guys, I'm a meching terran at masters level and I have a question regarding the follow up after 1 rax fe.
There seems to be two variations now: 1) Cloaked banshee + hellion 2) 2 Fact BFH (around 10-11) + Viking
Question: 1) Which should I choose based on my scouting infomation? I tend to go for 2 fact BFH if I scout no gas, since the zerg should presumably take his third, whilst relying on mass lings for defence 2) How should I react if Zerg is safety walled off behind spines and evo chambers? I feel lost whenever I run into this whgen going for the second option - It feels as if my BFH upgrade does not pay off, as I am unable to kill drones/lings 3) Any tips for an effective harassment? Specifically, should I target down if zerg has taken a 3rd hatch?
Thanks!
2 fact blue flame is only a legit build on cloud kingdom because on any other map the Zerg will scout it, make roaches and wall, and you auto lose (and you want to get a medivac, not a viking first, viking comes second. I know mvp does it the other way but his reasons are weird and dependent on him knowing exactly how his opponent will react).
1) Scouting info means little. Just go hellion/banshee 3rd cc. 2) Well that's the problem with the build; if he reacts correctly you are so behind you basically you lose. 3) If the Zerg does normal 6 queen/3 base you can do a 4 hellion runby immediately if his queens are not sitting in the natural protecting it. If it's in the midgame you want to wait for him to move out with his forces, then run into the third and drop in the main simultaneously. If you time it right you can rally reinforcements into his natural for 3 pronged. This is pretty risky though and relies on good game sense. It's easier to just use hellions as a backstab if he ever attacks you.
What could Ryung have done better in game 3 vs Curious other than having a PF wall at his 4th/5th base to defend the ultra counter attack better?
yea i watched that game the tech switches are ludicrious (from bl/festor -> 18+ ultras -> bls again) all the while supplementing the army with winfestor backbone. even if terran knows this is still extremely hard to get the balance in your compo correctly, which ryung didnt and fell apart.
actually ryung lose cos he lost his 4th to the ultras. he didnt have much of an army after the broodlord engagement and thus have to sack the 4th curious did well to deflect hellion harass in his extra bases with...blings and spines of all things
anyway how do you fend off mass roach drops when going mech in 3 bases? it seems zerg can do some serious damage if they are committed and zerg does some multi prong drops (eg. most on main some on 3rd.)
Win the game before that point. I don't mean cripple him either, I mean win. I've lost enough mech games against suppy where I killed all but his main/nat and am on 5 bases but still lose because that buys enough time for 1 brood army. Terran chances in an "even" lategame are 100% reliant on the Zerg making gross unforced errors (i,e soo vs major from MvP on daybreak, where soo clumps his army twice and dies to seeker missile that he doesn't fungal in time_.
This game basically showed the problem with mech: if you do not play it absolutely flawlessly (and thus kill him with your first major attack, or kill most of his bases which makes it even) you are screwed because you have no comeback potential.
I lost a similar game to tgun at mlg on metropolis where I had basically the dream army of 14 ravens + 6~ BCs, 8~ tanks, and support thor/hellion/viking after saccing 40 scvs or so. And I lost the big battle, fighting at my own planetary, after killing multiple ultra and roach armies before that, on even bases, which instantly lost the game. All because he properly spread his army.
In this case Ryung's build was slightly suboptimal and he lost too many hellions roaming around so his 1430-15 min timing that is supposed to kill came maybe 45s later which means Curious has an easy time making broodlords. Ordinarily you want to force them to max on roach/ling/infestor at 14 mins, retreat to build up to 180-190 with more tanks, then push out again and kill their army and win the game. Curious actually made a lot of bad errors and gave Ryung a possibility to win. If Ryung had taken all the bottom left bases and made 8~ orbitals during his siege up left and started investing into BC's, he would've had an easier time holding and rebuilding. You never want to make planetary walls and I find defensive planetaries to be terrible tbh except on Metro but raxes and orbitals around a planetary can help out a lot vs ultras. Taeja vs Idra on Atlantis spaceship is a good example of this where Idra makes some errors engaging without a proper force and Taeja's repoduction is good enough that he can buyback his army faster with a dozen mules.
Do you guys have any experience playing against this?
Yup for good reason, it's really strong and safe. The best way to get advantages for it is with triple cc, as that's the coinflip (this is how Mvp beat Rain on Antiga) and play as greedy as possible. It's a build that is designed to neutralize pressure and make sure the Protoss can enter the lategame. So make sure you plant your 3rd cc at your 3rd, rush that armory and 2nd ebay, and grab a fast 4th. You should be able to pressure a lot later as you'll max first and it will be awkward for him to take a 4th.
edit: Monk informed me that Rain's build is slightly different as he rushes charge, but if you are going triple cc it should end up roughly the same either way.
Also look at Parting vs Mvp (gsl semis) on Metro, where Parting fails to hold a simple 4 medivac drop. Even this build is a little bit fragile if you can knock out observers as he relies 100% on intercepting drops; once they land in that brief window before charge finishes you can really hurt if not win outright.
Do you have any solid terran replay example for the above? I am really struggling against this kind of play, and would be nice to see somebody pulling off some magic against it. Thank you.
Yes Mvp vs Rain, Antiga, from their gsl semis. Replays? not off the top of my head, only a subset of protosses do this build and most have not been in tourneys with reps.
On November 13 2012 04:20 kollin wrote: Hi Ver, in your opinion what are the best 3 cheeses for TvP at the moment. I know a month ago or so you said it was hellion marauder, and that is immensely strong, but do you have any thoughts on other all ins?
yeah gas first hellion/marauder proxy fact port hellion drop proxy marauder proxy 11/11 I think the 1 base cloak into thor/banshee 2 base attack is a bit underused as a surprise build.
Ver, When you play with your zerg vs terran, What do you think is the best opening with the current meta game in mind. Or even, where you think the meta game will go.
Gasless 4 queen ** 6 Queen With 1 gas, Life style, with fast speed.
I ask because, i feel like terrans who scout gasless openings, are learning that zergs can not really attack, and are cutting corners?
Where fast gas openers have less creep spread potential, but can cheese?
On November 13 2012 08:37 BuiBui wrote: Ver, When you play with your zerg vs terran, What do you think is the best opening with the current meta game in mind. Or even, where you think the meta game will go.
Gasless 4 queen ** 6 Queen With 1 gas, Life style, with fast speed.
I ask because, i feel like terrans who scout gasless openings, are learning that zergs can not really attack, and are cutting corners?
Where fast gas openers have less creep spread potential, but can cheese?
I don't think it's a question of metagame. TvZ on both sides has clearly defined superior builds at the moment, though Zerg can introduce luck if they want to with 2 base lair allins.
I think no gas fast third 6 queen is unquestionably the best. If in the GSL finals life did fast third/6 queen and ovie scouted every game Mvp wouldn't have won a single game, except maybe Abyssal (only because he didn't make broods). Mvp's 2 fact blue flame allin relied on Life not scouting and doing that speedling build. If Life makes 3rd/6 queens and ovie scouts, he sees the build and makes enough roaches to hold while getting full saturation and a huge midgame lead. That's why nobody does that 2 fact build very much anymore and also why Mvp used it almost every game.
Life's opening get him easy wins, but they also make him vulnerable to things he shouldn't be. It's theoretically inferior and will lose more games to 'perfect' players (like the GSL finals, which shouldn't have been close except Mvp won almost every coinflip) but looks pretty good. Life's midgame is where he truly shines, and obviously he has Zerg lategame. Compared to other Zergs (Soo, Scarlett, Suppy, DRG at his best) his creep is not particularly good most of the time due to his opening and emphasis on harass; for example, this severely cost him on Cloud Kingdom against Flash from MLG. Remember as Zerg your entire goal is to reach Hive tech and live. How you do that is up for debate but unless you want to actually outplay your opponent you want to get off of lair tech as quickly as possible.
I will say though that the muta/ling/bling midgame and relying on counters and ling runbys is FAR more enjoyable to play than infestor hive turtle. The fast ling speed will let you punish greedy Terrans who build their 3rd cc at their 3rd and are really aggressive/suicidal with hellions; a lot of Terrans fall under that umbrella, and it's a lot easier and more forgiving for you than the 6 queen build. But in the end, you have less creep, and creep matters a lot even early game.
Furthermore, not seeing gas is not the major determining factor for the Terran: it's scouting the third before 630. The only things that early gas does which double gas upon lings popping does not are pre 6 minute roach or ling/bane allins that can cut queens, the 630 speedling third build, and the fastest possible mutas. If I scout my opponent getting gas as Terran I'm overjoyed because while it does introduce some luck into the game, it also means they will have a trickier time reaching hive unscathed.
On November 12 2012 18:05 Keilkan wrote: As a Midmasters Zerg I completely crush mech flat in its track, yet I die a horrible and one-sided death vs proper bio play. It seems like a Terran on three bases with Bio can make an insane amount of MMM with a sprinkle of tank support.
Once the Bio starts going with upgrades, spreads and multitasking I feel like I am on a timer as Zerg to get out Broodlords. I have yet to trade efficiently enough to actually overpower that kind of army composition with just Ling/Bling/Infestor. Is there a way, besides getting off baneling bombs, to stop a competent Terran from snowballing with his bio/tank composition?
Unless Terran reaches a high Tank count those fights are Zerg-favored on creep, so as pointed above check your macro, creep spread and engagements. One problem you might have is that the game snowballs out of control because you use Banelings along with Infestors, so if you don't win the first main engagement your Infestors are out of energy and you have to retreat while morphing additional Banelings, and Terran uses this window to move forward / kill your expands. You may try Zerglings/Roaches/Infestors, also works fine to clear Marines/Tanks pushes on creep.
On November 12 2012 20:15 Teoita wrote: A question for Ver/thedwf, from the the ro16 of gsl, group A:
What could Ryung have done better in game 3 vs Curious other than having a PF wall at his 4th/5th base to defend the ultra counter attack better?
I didn't watch the games so I can only give a general answer, but anyway you can't do much against Ultralisks counters as PFs are horrible against them and leaving some Tanks behind is obviously not a solution. The best you can do is probably shield your PFs with Barracks and/or macro OCs, but if he wants to destroy the PF he'll be able to destroy it regardless. PFs walls are not an option as they're costly and inefficient against Ultralisks. Lack of a flexible supply-free static defence is one of the banes of Terran's lategame.
On November 12 2012 23:32 ThaSlayer wrote: Hi guys, I'm a meching terran at masters level and I have a question regarding the follow up after 1 rax fe.
There seems to be two variations now: 1) Cloaked banshee + hellion 2) 2 Fact BFH (around 10-11) + Viking
Question: 1) Which should I choose based on my scouting infomation? I tend to go for 2 fact BFH if I scout no gas, since the zerg should presumably take his third, whilst relying on mass lings for defence 2) How should I react if Zerg is safety walled off behind spines and evo chambers? I feel lost whenever I run into this whgen going for the second option - It feels as if my BFH upgrade does not pay off, as I am unable to kill drones/lings 3) Any tips for an effective harassment? Specifically, should I target down if zerg has taken a 3rd hatch?
Thanks!
For questions 1) and 2) see my previous answer to saaaa page 15. For 3) it depends on your follow-up, with mech you produce more Hellions/Banshees so you can try riskier things, with Marines/Tanks you want to be more conservative as for a while you solely rely on those units for your defence. When I play mech I try to run in my first 4 or 6 Hellions if his Queens are out of position, if no I wait my first Cloak Banshee to chase his Queens, etc. It's a bit hard to give specific advice because it depends on the map, the build order your opponent uses, his reactions, his units, your micro...
On November 13 2012 12:06 smaug81243 wrote: Can you discuss your thoughts on why flash was delaying ghosts (TVP) for so long? It seemed like he was completely against using them
I suppose you refer to the Flash vs Naniwa game on Daybreak? Against Templar tech, you may delay Ghosts for a while in favor of a stronger midgame initiative/pressure with your gas used on Medivacs instead. Polt uses this style as well, I think Polt vs Rain on Antiga @ GSL season 4 Ro16 features this kind of play if I remember correctly. As proven in the Flash vs Naniwa game, though, you absolutely need Ghosts at some point because if you don't break the Protoss during your agressive phase he will eventually manage to stabilize with enough Storms to wipe out your entire army (or prevent it from defending your expands using Storms as a zone control, as it happened near Flash's fourth) regardless of your ability to dodge and split. Delaying Ghosts that much was a bit of a rookie mistake from Flash.
On November 13 2012 08:37 BuiBui wrote: Ver, When you play with your zerg vs terran, What do you think is the best opening with the current meta game in mind. Or even, where you think the meta game will go.
Gasless 4 queen ** 6 Queen With 1 gas, Life style, with fast speed.
I ask because, i feel like terrans who scout gasless openings, are learning that zergs can not really attack, and are cutting corners?
Where fast gas openers have less creep spread potential, but can cheese?
I don't think it's a question of metagame. TvZ on both sides has clearly defined superior builds at the moment, though Zerg can introduce luck if they want to with 2 base lair allins.
I think no gas fast third 6 queen is unquestionably the best. If in the GSL finals life did fast third/6 queen and ovie scouted every game Mvp wouldn't have won a single game, except maybe Abyssal (only because he didn't make broods). Mvp's 2 fact blue flame allin relied on Life not scouting and doing that speedling build. If Life makes 3rd/6 queens and ovie scouts, he sees the build and makes enough roaches to hold while getting full saturation and a huge midgame lead. That's why nobody does that 2 fact build very much anymore and also why Mvp used it almost every game.
Life's opening get him easy wins, but they also make him vulnerable to things he shouldn't be. It's theoretically inferior and will lose more games to 'perfect' players (like the GSL finals, which shouldn't have been close except Mvp won almost every coinflip) but looks pretty good. Life's midgame is where he truly shines, and obviously he has Zerg lategame. Compared to other Zergs (Soo, Scarlett, Suppy, DRG at his best) his creep is not particularly good most of the time due to his opening and emphasis on harass; for example, this severely cost him on Cloud Kingdom against Flash from MLG. Remember as Zerg your entire goal is to reach Hive tech and live. How you do that is up for debate but unless you want to actually outplay your opponent you want to get off of lair tech as quickly as possible.
I will say though that the muta/ling/bling midgame and relying on counters and ling runbys is FAR more enjoyable to play than infestor hive turtle. The fast ling speed will let you punish greedy Terrans who build their 3rd cc at their 3rd and are really aggressive/suicidal with hellions; a lot of Terrans fall under that umbrella, and it's a lot easier and more forgiving for you than the 6 queen build. But in the end, you have less creep, and creep matters a lot even early game.
Furthermore, not seeing gas is not the major determining factor for the Terran: it's scouting the third before 630. The only things that early gas does which double gas upon lings popping does not are pre 6 minute roach or ling/bane allins that can cut queens, the 630 speedling third build, and the fastest possible mutas. If I scout my opponent getting gas as Terran I'm overjoyed because while it does introduce some luck into the game, it also means they will have a trickier time reaching hive unscathed.
thank you for the very well thought out response. This is exactly what I wanted to read!
2) As Kawaii said, are you dispersing your banes and getting flanks in? A lot of zergs don't bother to set up attacks at all, i,e spreading their army in a giant arc so it crashes down in a large envelopment rather than a big line with clumped banes. If you want an example of a simple yet strong flank, look at Miya vs Taeja on Atlantis Spaceship from Slayers/Liquid in IPLTAC3. Also make sure you micro banes so they don't all detonate on spread tanks/thors. If you are using mutas you should queue them up to kill all his tanks (monster vs taeja, ipltl, entombed).
I could probably do a lot better of flanking. The game in question however, my opponent opened two-rax and got murdered. Then I got a third immediately. Yet he decided to push out completely blind with a relatively low amount of marines, and got to deny my third and the creepspread I had going, so the beginning of the midgame was a lot more even than it should have been - I also didn't have much creep going, due to the early aggression. As the game was on Ohana, I also feel like the room I have to backstab or flank is extremely limited. Basically his push was sitting around the lower ramp towards my fourth, with a single marine holding the watchtower. Once he got onto that ramp I knew engaging would be almost impossible with just ling/bling/infestor. Yet I am not sure where I could have really engaged the army much before he got there. He more or less slowpushed to the watchtower, then just went to the ramp at my fourth and slowpushed again.
What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran)
Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing?
On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran)
Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing?
Keep in mind that Zerglings attack quickly, each armor upgrade will reduce each of those attacks by one. The lower the damage of the attack, the better it is to get armor because you'll reduce the attack damage even further. Against a tank shot of 35 damage, having 3 armor does very little (less than 10% reduction). However, against an attack of 6 damage, having 3 armor cuts the damage output in half. This is why 6 armor ultras require Marauders because it reduces +3 marine damage from 9 to 3 and why +3 armor Battlecruisers take very little damage from Interceptors.
As for my own question, I'm still looking for a stable yet relatively simple TvZ build. As I'm currently in Platinum, I don't feel like I have the APM/Micro to make Hellion/Banshee work as well as it should. I did see a build where you go for a Marine/Hellion with one Medivac attack followed by going Marine/Tank. It seems simple enough, capable of doing early damage and setting up for a strong midgame, but I've been reading here that Marine/Tank has become very difficult due to creep spread and mass speed/bane/muta. Can you think of a build that would be somewhat more forgiving of mistakes/easier to learn with?
On November 13 2012 12:06 smaug81243 wrote: Can you discuss your thoughts on why flash was delaying ghosts (TVP) for so long? It seemed like he was completely against using them
No Idea... but koreans tend to rely more on micro... If he could avoid those storms he would've won the game instantly. Maybe that's what he was trying... to trade armies nonstop...
But building ghosts asap is definitelly safer for us.
I've been watching Ganzi's stream lately and he does this cool 930~10 minute push with like 8 hellions + a lots of marines w/ combat shields, skips the tech lab starport and I was just curious like why doesn't the zerg just make banelings? I haven't seen one (only seen 2-3 games) actually just make banelings to kill it
On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran)
Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing?
You mean with mech? Skipping armor upgrades makes your units extremely vulnerable to Zerglings, Broodlings and Infested Terrans. Skipping +3 armor upgrade is frequent vs BLs, though, as you may not have 500 gas at the time you start both upgrades / you desperately need gas to counter BLs.
On November 14 2012 01:18 Chaggi wrote: I've been watching Ganzi's stream lately and he does this cool 930~10 minute push with like 8 hellions + a lots of marines w/ combat shields, skips the tech lab starport and I was just curious like why doesn't the zerg just make banelings? I haven't seen one (only seen 2-3 games) actually just make banelings to kill it
Greed and/or lack of scouting information. Most Zergs don't even bother to sacrifice an Overlord these days.
That's what I figured, I've seen more and more Terrans move away from the Banshee, and opt for 2 more rax and getting the Starport a bit later. Is that a change in the metagame lately? (TvZ)
2) As Kawaii said, are you dispersing your banes and getting flanks in? A lot of zergs don't bother to set up attacks at all, i,e spreading their army in a giant arc so it crashes down in a large envelopment rather than a big line with clumped banes. If you want an example of a simple yet strong flank, look at Miya vs Taeja on Atlantis Spaceship from Slayers/Liquid in IPLTAC3. Also make sure you micro banes so they don't all detonate on spread tanks/thors. If you are using mutas you should queue them up to kill all his tanks (monster vs taeja, ipltl, entombed).
I could probably do a lot better of flanking. The game in question however, my opponent opened two-rax and got murdered. Then I got a third immediately. Yet he decided to push out completely blind with a relatively low amount of marines, and got to deny my third and the creepspread I had going, so the beginning of the midgame was a lot more even than it should have been - I also didn't have much creep going, due to the early aggression. As the game was on Ohana, I also feel like the room I have to backstab or flank is extremely limited. Basically his push was sitting around the lower ramp towards my fourth, with a single marine holding the watchtower. Once he got onto that ramp I knew engaging would be almost impossible with just ling/bling/infestor. Yet I am not sure where I could have really engaged the army much before he got there. He more or less slowpushed to the watchtower, then just went to the ramp at my fourth and slowpushed again.
3) If you have infestors, are you burrowing one underneath his army to follow it around and then lead any attack with infested terrans?
If I can get a burrowed infestor under his army, I generally will. Else I have had a lot of success using changelings.
That blind marine moveout is a coinflip, as is your ultra fast third before gas (im assuming). I think normally if you want to be safe you just get speed then take a 3rd against a 2 rax. If, however, you totally own his 2 rax and kill his initial marines, then he simply cannot push out with marines (assuming he triple cc's like he should) because you have the watchtower and just make lings if he pushes past; if you kill his whole army you just baneling bust and auto win. If you want some inspiration for backstabs on Ohana, look at Suppy vs Polt here:
Pushes on Ohana can be fast and scary but the third is ridiculously exposed. If he is slow pushing, and you are moving your army around and delaying w/fungals to make sure its slow, backstabbing when you can, he isn't going to make it in time before broods (or ultras, if you want to go the easy route) come. To give you an idea, in a standard 3 base hellion/banshee game vs suppy he'll have 6-8 broods at 1545 if I can't force him to make banelings. From what you've said I'm almost certain your hive army is too late. Slow push nowadays and they get broods, so you auto lose. My games nowadays all involve frantic rushing across creep because you just can't let that happen.
Changelings are great! Use them every game if you can
On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran)
Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing?
Nope, lings matter a ton and armor isn't that expensive. Plus its very key vs mutas too. You want lings to be not very effective so zerg has to spend gas to kill your army so he can't get hive that fast. If he can hold your attacks with pure ling/infestor you just lost.
On November 13 2012 18:47 plogamer wrote: What do you think of an attack-upgrade only strategy against Zerg? (playing as Terran)
Zerg units that do low damage per attack tend to have very low HP. Roaches and broods seem to do bigger damage per hit.To forgo armor upgrade would spare gas for more tech units, ala banshee, raven, etc. Is there something I am missing?
Keep in mind that Zerglings attack quickly, each armor upgrade will reduce each of those attacks by one. The lower the damage of the attack, the better it is to get armor because you'll reduce the attack damage even further. Against a tank shot of 35 damage, having 3 armor does very little (less than 10% reduction). However, against an attack of 6 damage, having 3 armor cuts the damage output in half. This is why 6 armor ultras require Marauders because it reduces +3 marine damage from 9 to 3 and why +3 armor Battlecruisers take very little damage from Interceptors.
As for my own question, I'm still looking for a stable yet relatively simple TvZ build. As I'm currently in Platinum, I don't feel like I have the APM/Micro to make Hellion/Banshee work as well as it should. I did see a build where you go for a Marine/Hellion with one Medivac attack followed by going Marine/Tank. It seems simple enough, capable of doing early damage and setting up for a strong midgame, but I've been reading here that Marine/Tank has become very difficult due to creep spread and mass speed/bane/muta. Can you think of a build that would be somewhat more forgiving of mistakes/easier to learn with?
This is an awkward question because I can give you builds that will be easy and work at that level, but will be useless once you reach higher level players. The only other viable alternative to hellion/banshee is 11/11 -> 3 scv pull -> make 2 cc which is somewhat cheesy but still not a bad build at all to learn. Then if you don't want to make hellion/banshee you make however many rax to wall, stim, fact, and ebays.
If you want something that is a bit outdated but will work at your level, we'll do Taeja's old build of triple cc marine/medivac with late tanks. Taeja vs Annyeung in Liquid vs Prime in TAC WR3 is a good example of the build.
rax cc cc 3 rax 2 gas stim 2 rax fact 2 ebay 2 gas. You get a huge amount of marines midgame to control the map, deny creep, and slow his 4th, then add in tanks later.
I still think marine/tank is better than mech, or at least has more margin for error than mech (slim, but better than none). It's more of there is no reliable opening every game other than some variant of 3 cc hellion/banshee or 11/11.
On November 14 2012 01:42 Chaggi wrote: That's what I figured, I've seen more and more Terrans move away from the Banshee, and opt for 2 more rax and getting the Starport a bit later. Is that a change in the metagame lately? (TvZ)
More like the remnants of the old strategy trend in which 2-base pressure could achieve something. Though 2-base timings can still be somewhat decent against 2-base Lair, you will systematically end up at a disadvantage against fast third 6 Queens players who bother to sacrifice an Overlord because they should be able to block whichever attack you use while retaining their third. Even if the attack was successful you will likely hurt yourself more than the Zerg with your 9' third because you don't have the luxury to insta saturate it the way Zergs can. I had numerous games in which I used the Hellion/Marine/Marauder timing that both Mvp and SuperNova played at IEM Cologne (a strong attack which hits with many Hellions and bio, stronger than Medivacs timings regarding the “brute force” of your army) and still ended up losing despite wiping out their entire third, Drones included; after he fends off your attack, Zerg simply soft contains you until you have 2 Tanks while taking back his third, producing 15 Drones at once and putting new Tumors at the edge of the creep if you killed Tumors, and voilà, you don't have any particular advantage even if your timing was a success.
Hey ver, low masters terran here.i have some questions regarding tvt facing mech. I lose like 95% of my games where my opponent goes mech. 1. what army composition should I use: standard Marine tank with some marauders mixed, pure bio, Bio with fast battlecruiser or a Ton of vikings for aircontrol or whatever, i dont really know. 2. whats your general gameplan Vs mech, i feel like if i dont Do damage with my medivac timimg( if for example his blueflame/ siegemode isnt finished) i just dont know what to Do when there are some turrets up. then he just rolls out and kills me after a few minutes. of course i heard about that you should use your mobility and such, but if he just turtles with a lot of turrets i cant do a lot. would be cool if you can.help me!
On November 14 2012 03:36 Ver wrote: This is an awkward question because I can give you builds that will be easy and work at that level, but will be useless once you reach higher level players. The only other viable alternative to hellion/banshee is 11/11 -> 3 scv pull -> make 2 cc which is somewhat cheesy but still not a bad build at all to learn. Then if you don't want to make hellion/banshee you make however many rax to wall, stim, fact, and ebays.
If you want something that is a bit outdated but will work at your level, we'll do Taeja's old build of triple cc marine/medivac with late tanks. Taeja vs Annyeung in Liquid vs Prime in TAC WR3 is a good example of the build.
rax cc cc 3 rax 2 gas stim 2 rax fact 2 ebay 2 gas. You get a huge amount of marines midgame to control the map, deny creep, and slow his 4th, then add in tanks later.
I still think marine/tank is better than mech, or at least has more margin for error than mech (slim, but better than none). It's more of there is no reliable opening every game other than some variant of 3 cc hellion/banshee or 11/11.
Hmmm, I've always preferred to be aggressive (non-cheese) against Zerg early on but from everything I've read, only 11/11 can do any real damage and it feels too cheesy to me (cutting SCVs ), anything else either doesn't do any real damage (Reactor Hellion exp) or the CC comes out too late (Cloakshee CC). 2 base timings don't seem to be very effective either so I'll try Teaja's build.
Since I'm going 1rax into 3CC, I'm assuming I'll need a few bunkers to stay alive unless I scout an early third Hatchery?
On November 14 2012 04:16 karlkarl wrote: Hey ver, low masters terran here.i have some questions regarding tvt facing mech. I lose like 95% of my games where my opponent goes mech. 1. what army composition should I use: standard Marine tank with some marauders mixed, pure bio, Bio with fast battlecruiser or a Ton of vikings for aircontrol or whatever, i dont really know. 2. whats your general gameplan Vs mech, i feel like if i dont Do damage with my medivac timimg( if for example his blueflame/ siegemode isnt finished) i just dont know what to Do when there are some turrets up. then he just rolls out and kills me after a few minutes. of course i heard about that you should use your mobility and such, but if he just turtles with a lot of turrets i cant do a lot. would be cool if you can.help me!
Not Ver but what's worked for me (and I've seen this on KawaiiRice's stream) is basically putting a group of marauders/marines spread around the map, and basically if I can keep map control, I can spot when they move out, and either try and flank, or attack their base and force them to move back and defend a base. Mech is so so bad (unless you're super behind) when flanked and it's really surprising what a smaller group of bio units (split and controlled well) + flanks can do against it.
I have question about a specific build vZ. Ryung and Innovation have been doing the old CC first --> stim/hellion/medivac timing to pressure zerg before baneling speed/infestor tech. Artosis also mentioned something about the effectiveness of marauders, a unit which is occasionally made for this push. There are a few different versions of CC --> raxx raxx --> gas gas
1. Innovation's version: stay on 2 raxx (1 techlab, 1 reactor), 3rd CC before starport, push with about 6 hellions, 14-16 marines, 2 medivacs. Double engineering bay behind the attack 2. Ryung's version: go up to 3 raxx (1 techlab, 2 reactors) engineering bay before starport, push with about 3-4 marauders, 6 hellions, marines, 2 medivacs. 3rd CC behind the attack
Question is, is the marauder +1 better vs. certain Z openings? Is it better vs. a mass queen opening? And is the 3rd CC timing more important on certain maps?
Also, what's your general opinion on the 2 factory blue flame trend, either as a follow up to 2raxx pressure --> 3CC (see marine/combat shield/BFH push Ryung vs. DRG, G2. Cloud Kingdom), or as part of MKP/Maru's build 3CC --> 4 raxx --> 2 fact --> double ups push at 1-1?
On November 14 2012 04:16 karlkarl wrote: Hey ver, low masters terran here.i have some questions regarding tvt facing mech. I lose like 95% of my games where my opponent goes mech. 1. what army composition should I use: standard Marine tank with some marauders mixed, pure bio, Bio with fast battlecruiser or a Ton of vikings for aircontrol or whatever, i dont really know. 2. whats your general gameplan Vs mech, i feel like if i dont Do damage with my medivac timimg( if for example his blueflame/ siegemode isnt finished) i just dont know what to Do when there are some turrets up. then he just rolls out and kills me after a few minutes. of course i heard about that you should use your mobility and such, but if he just turtles with a lot of turrets i cant do a lot. would be cool if you can.help me!
Not Ver but what's worked for me (and I've seen this on KawaiiRice's stream) is basically putting a group of marauders/marines spread around the map, and basically if I can keep map control, I can spot when they move out, and either try and flank, or attack their base and force them to move back and defend a base. Mech is so so bad (unless you're super behind) when flanked and it's really surprising what a smaller group of bio units (split and controlled well) + flanks can do against it.
Mid master terran here. This is exactly how you can get in trouble. Once they reach critical mass of mech, bio doesn't cut it. By the time you take your third you need to be on 3 fac siege tank production. You should take your third before him because you have map control. Then, just contain him on 3 base while you take the map. By the time he tries to break out you should have 10+ siege tanks. More than enough to make him regret a-moving into you. If he just sits there and camp go for doulble air ups once you got 5 bases and transition into ravens. After you got air control, battle cruisers make mech look silly, but don't try this till you're on 10 gas.
Hi I have another question (I haven't faced this recently, but I do see it alot on in my league on ladder). from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build,
how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing)
I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc
On November 15 2012 07:52 zhurai wrote: Hi I have another question (I haven't faced this recently, but I do see it alot on in my league on ladder). from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build,
how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing)
I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc
Post replays, and someone will tell you what you could have done better, otherwise you'll get what you already know - macro better, have scv's in time for repair, scout.
On November 15 2012 07:52 zhurai wrote: Hi I have another question (I haven't faced this recently, but I do see it alot on in my league on ladder). from a standard 1rax fe into 3rax (into medivacs) build,
how do you hold off a 3gate immortal timing (either 1base/all-in variant, or the one with an expo before going into this timing)
I realize their collosi is thus delayed, but I can't figure out how to hold off the push when they hit before my stim/medivacs are out. Like how many bunkers do I need, obviously I need to pull scvs to repair, etc
3 bunkers minimum, but I would build 4. Marines target firing sentries (you need to shut down guardian shield and reduce his sentry count so low that he can't send a 2nd wave). SCVs in front of the bunkers to repair (forces him to waste forcefields on all sides of the bunkers). At the very least, you need to be controlling your half of the map in order to buy enough time for bunkers #2-4. It's easier to spot immortal busts when you open with gas, hellions scouting round the map, early medivac, etc, and much easier to counterattack with gas openings.
i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base.
Could you tell me a way how to deal with that massiv zealot armys in late game? And which players should i observe to learn how and when to harass / drop ? ( My harassment is pretty poor )
i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base.
Could you tell me a way how to deal with that massiv zealot armys in late game? And which players should i observe to learn how and when to harass / drop ? ( My harassment is pretty poor )
A recent one is [GSTL] Gumiho vs. Creator, on CK. It's an inspiring game, a masterclass on drop-play and multi-pronged harass. I go very ghost heavy to deal with mass zealot.
When doing TvZ banshee hellion into mech, when should I be suiciding hellions for drones and how many do I need to get to be effective? Assuming I can't get a ton of them for free, how many drones do I have to get for it to be worth it? I'm thinking that mid game I can afford 150 gas for one more reactor factory and I can constantly push out hellions to chew up larvae and APM for Z while I build up my gas army. Basically, once I am on three base if I am not expecting an all in I think it makes sense to be very risky and aggressive, since I am trading out minerals which I can spare.
How should I control hellions as part of a TvZ mech push out? When I do TvZ mech push out my hellions end up at the front and they get fungaled, sometimes twice before the Z army comes in. This slows down my push and the fungals blow up the hellions super quick. How can I minimize this? I was thinking about putting half of the hellions on a follow command on the rear siege tank and leading with a separate control group of a couple of hellions to bait fungals. When a dozen hellions at the front of my push get blown up by fungals it's really annoying, both because I lose the hellions but because zerglings get to engage the thors and I cry terran tears. What about leading with the thors, since they shrug off fungal damage and can't be rooted, and if anything comes within melee range the hellions will burn them? Maybe I should be tanking with the unit that has most HP.
Hi, I've watched LiquidSea's replays on T v Z and he switches to mass thors (literally 5 thors at a time) when dealing with ultra tech. Can anyone shed some light on the actual uses of the thor unit in the T v Z matchup? Apart from the initial 2-4 thors which scares away muta flocks?
How do I incorporate thors effectively into mech play?
Today i ask myself in mech TvZ scenario where i have Mass Tanks and the opponent go for a ultralisk composition.
Should i let my tanks sieged or should i unsiege and "Stutterstep" away?
The same question für Ultra+Infestor. Should i wait until they throw all their eggs away and then unsiege and stutterstep?
I dont know the perfect way to engage those armies and some pro let them sieged and some unsiege them. Maybe only siege if i create a small entrance where splash damage is really effective?
i need some advice for my TvP. Basically i open each game with 1 Rax Fe into 3 rax bio play. Most times i end up in a macro game and lose in the endgame. Even if i manage to break their first army they rebuild / backup with so much zealots that they can kill my remaining army and base.
Unfortunately in TvP, when you don't have a landslide victory you often gain nothing but the right to have another fight later because the remnants of your army are too weak to overwhelm Zealots warp-ins / Templars left behind. If your army is too small/damaged to go on, do not overextend and retreat. Overextension is the worst thing you can do as you will likely lose everything in a very inefficient way. To deal with mass Zealots, you need to be Marine-heavy (Marauders are absolutely awful against Zealots) and/or to have a high Ghost count. Fighting in chokes and having a high Medivac count also helps, but having many Medivacs is not always something you can afford.
On November 17 2012 09:23 bmoneyAK wrote: When doing TvZ banshee hellion into mech, when should I be suiciding hellions for drones and how many do I need to get to be effective? Assuming I can't get a ton of them for free, how many drones do I have to get for it to be worth it? I'm thinking that mid game I can afford 150 gas for one more reactor factory and I can constantly push out hellions to chew up larvae and APM for Z while I build up my gas army. Basically, once I am on three base if I am not expecting an all in I think it makes sense to be very risky and aggressive, since I am trading out minerals which I can spare.
Personnally I always runby my first 4 or 6 Hellions if his Queens are out of position (not only for Drones kills, but also for information) and/or he has no wall; obviously you retreat if you see lots of Speedlings. During the game, it depends; you can mostly kill Drones when his army is out of position, otherwise they just die for nothing. It also depends on your opponent's creep spread and the map layout since you'll obviously get more kills if you surprise him.
I was watching Beastyqt's stream some weeks ago, wondering why he was able to afford so many macro OCs by lategame while I was unable to do so despite playing the same build and properly saturating my 3 bases... And I found it was because I was playing with 2 Reactor Factories; I was spending so much minerals on Hellions that I was not able to afford extra CCs to boost my economy / make PFs at key points. Now I play with only 1 Reactor Factory and I am able to set defences and develop correctly.
Constantly suiciding Hellions for Drones looks like a good trade but things are actually more subtle. Whenever you lose Hellions during midgame, you weaken and/or delay your pre-Hive tech push; meanwhile, your opponent just replenishes his Drone count right away and voilà, you didn't necessarily gain something valuable... Hence those infuriating games in which you can kill 100+ Drones and still lose. By lategame, yes, you can dispose of Hellions with far more munificence but now I am a lot more conservative with my Hellions during mid-game.
On November 17 2012 09:23 bmoneyAK wrote: How should I control hellions as part of a TvZ mech push out? When I do TvZ mech push out my hellions end up at the front and they get fungaled, sometimes twice before the Z army comes in. This slows down my push and the fungals blow up the hellions super quick. How can I minimize this? I was thinking about putting half of the hellions on a follow command on the rear siege tank and leading with a separate control group of a couple of hellions to bait fungals. When a dozen hellions at the front of my push get blown up by fungals it's really annoying, both because I lose the hellions but because zerglings get to engage the thors and I cry terran tears. What about leading with the thors, since they shrug off fungal damage and can't be rooted, and if anything comes within melee range the hellions will burn them? Maybe I should be tanking with the unit that has most HP.
Yes, you need to be careful; Hellions are much faster than Tanks/Thors so if you don't pay attention, they will run into Fungals, and you want to avoid that as they're part of your meat shield (and your firepower if he has mass Zerglings). Either control them manually or have them follow one of your slower units. Then, in a fight, Hellions should be in front if he has mass Roaches; if he has mass Zerglings, you should hit & run so they're not surrounded. You can lead with Thors; they can be rooted but they're much tougher. You can also lead with Cloaked Banshees if you have any left.
On November 18 2012 23:17 ThaSlayer wrote: Hi, I've watched LiquidSea's replays on T v Z and he switches to mass thors (literally 5 thors at a time) when dealing with ultra tech. Can anyone shed some light on the actual uses of the thor unit in the T v Z matchup? Apart from the initial 2-4 thors which scares away muta flocks?
How do I incorporate thors effectively into mech play?
I believe thors have the highest dps in the game.
Thanks!
When going Marines/Tanks you make 1 or 2 Thors against high Mutalisks counts (say 20+) to prevent them from sniping your Tanks easily when you move out. When going mech you make at least 2 Thors initially if you cannot rule out Mutalisk play; personnally I skip those Thors if I am able to scout an Infest Pit or Roach play because reaching a healthy Tank count is necessary against Roaches/Infestors. Generally I make some Thors later for my pre-Hive tech push, and go on with them against Hive tech as they're required against Ultralisks and decent against low BLs counts while you tech air. Against Hive tech, Thors fulfill some kind of shaky core unit role: whenever a big trade occurs, you can make some of them after the fight because they're useful whether your opponent chooses to remax on Ultralisks or BLs. Basically they're decent against a lot of things but don't really shine against anything.
On November 19 2012 02:51 saaaa wrote: Today i ask myself in mech TvZ scenario where i have Mass Tanks and the opponent go for a ultralisk composition.
Should i let my tanks sieged or should i unsiege and "Stutterstep" away?
The same question für Ultra+Infestor. Should i wait until they throw all their eggs away and then unsiege and stutterstep?
I dont know the perfect way to engage those armies and some pro let them sieged and some unsiege them. Maybe only siege if i create a small entrance where splash damage is really effective?
hope u guys can help me thx
Sieged Tanks can blast Infestors from afar and are able to clean Zerglings swarms, unsieged Tanks have a higher dps against individual targets. So it depends on his composition; if he has many Infestors you don't want to be unsieged as he will be able (a) to surround your army with IT eggs [the least eggs he's able to throw the better] and (b) to use NP on Thors. Generally speaking you don't want pure Tanks to deal with Ultralisks, a balanced mixture of Hellions/Thors/Tanks will perform better. If you don't Siege all your Tanks, be sure to focus Infestors with the sieged ones [don't forget to scan (a) for vision and (b) to make sure you don't lose your focus if he burrows them] and Ultralisks with the unsieged ones.
Hey, a quick question - what's the best response when my 11/11 gets scouted and he 1. Uses 1 drone to deny or 2. Pulls an extra drone or 3. Goes 14 pool instead of 15 hatch?
Hi. I have a question about taeja's games vs dark on gsl
Both games of the BO3 he went for CC first into a marine hellion medivac timing with a quick 3rd behind it, into standard play (and on the 2nd game, eventually transitioned into sky with ghost and some tank support @ Antiga)
is that build solid for normal use (as an alternative to the hellion banshee style)?
I took notes on the build order (with some timings, some of it supply, depending on what I can see on the production tab/timer when I watched gsl)
14cc 15rax 17rax oc x2 21gas 22gas take natural with cc poke tower with 3 marines factory, reactor@rax 5-6 minutes: bunker 34 techlab@rax research stim, swap fact->reactor make a reactor on the rax again marine, hellion, stim production 52 3rd CC -- 6 hellions 61 starport (~8 min) x2 gas after 6 hellions, lift factory for techlab starport -> fact's old reactor double ebay x2 medivacs +1/+1 drop marines with hellion support into main while taking 3rd -- need good control to not get baneling'd combat shields, seige mode, seige tank (1 viking) x3 rax armory x2 reactor 11:30 ish: turrets x2 gas, +2/+2, +1 mech 13 minutes ish: 2nd factory
and then usual standard marine tank play
also is there a way to adapt this timing for a 1rax fe opening?
On November 21 2012 05:19 zhurai wrote: Hi. I have a question about taeja's games vs dark on gsl
Both games of the BO3 he went for CC first into a marine hellion medivac timing with a quick 3rd behind it, into standard play (and on the 2nd game, eventually transitioned into sky with ghost and some tank support @ Antiga)
is that build solid for normal use (as an alternative to the hellion banshee style)?
I took notes on the build order (with some timings, some of it supply, depending on what I can see on the production tab/timer when I watched gsl)
14cc 15rax 17rax oc x2 21gas 22gas take natural with cc poke tower with 3 marines factory, reactor@rax 5-6 minutes: bunker 34 techlab@rax research stim, swap fact->reactor make a reactor on the rax again marine, hellion, stim production 52 3rd CC -- 6 hellions 61 starport (~8 min) x2 gas after 6 hellions, lift factory for techlab starport -> fact's old reactor double ebay x2 medivacs +1/+1 drop marines with hellion support into main while taking 3rd -- need good control to not get baneling'd combat shields, seige mode, seige tank (1 viking) x3 rax armory x2 reactor 11:30 ish: turrets x2 gas, +2/+2, +1 mech 13 minutes ish: 2nd factory
and then usual standard marine tank play
also is there a way to adapt this timing for a 1rax fe opening?
Dunno about that build specifically but in general marine hellion 2 medivac builds are super vulnerable to a counter speedling/bane timing before you have siege up. They can just spam lings/banes and aggro while droning and taking a 4th and it's really hard to hold. That's if you do no damage though which isn't always the case ~.`;; Even if you hold that you're still behind in econ and they should have decently timed hive coming regardless.
On November 19 2012 19:52 monkybone wrote: Hi, just want to say to the blue posters here, what an excellent job you are doing, it is really informative.
I use standard build 1 rax FE build into double gas, reactored hellion with cloak banshee followed up with 3rd CC and then 2 engi bays before I put down 4 raxes with reactors.
When I do my 2-2 maxed marine tank medievac timing around 15 minutes after hellion banshee pressure, sometimes I haven't been able to keep the creep away properly. So when I'm half-way there I sometimes have to traverse through creep to do any kind of damage with the push.
What should I do in this situation? Should I poster on the edge of the creep and gradually push it back while I continue to macro, and harras? Should I spread my units and charge into creep onto a position where I can siege his 4th? I really don't know, and I've had some uncomfortable encounters with infestors in the middle of the map just slaughtering my army.
Also, should I do any sort of harrassment with marine drops before the push? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, any tips here? I usually send my medievac in a path where I have cleared overlords with a viking.
One more question regarding hellion banshee. I'm a bit uncertain as to what my goal is with these units. I send my initial banshee to harass and to the damage it can. Then, when he has spores and queens in position they can do nothing more. From here, what should this army do? Should I try to suicide hellions into drone lines, continually poke? And how important is it to keep this army alive?
Thanks! A 15 minute 2-2 timing feels too slow. Zerg gets broodlords at 1530-1545 if they are really good, so you need to killing bases before that point. Even if you start at the middle watchtower on entombed and run to his 4th he'll have broods out by the time his 4th is barely done.
How you execute the timing push really depends on figuring out what he is doing. If the Zerg is going muta/ling/bling, his broods are delayed til 17-18 mins at minimum so you can take your time avoid excessive risks. Ryung vs DRG on Whirlwind is a good example of this play. If he is going infestors, you have to suicide units (hellion or rine) to determine his army location, then scan if need be, to see what he's going. If you see 6-8 infestors and 0/low bane count, he's hive rushing.
If you see him hive rushing, then you need to blitz forward and a) force banelings/kill infestors and b) kill at least 1 if not 2 bases to remain in the game. In this case with proper pre splitting you can just bulldoze through creep ( though make sure to scan all the way) with pre stimmed units setting up a screen in front and the trigger finger on stim/siege. If you don't feel hes going to counter then rally everything to support the attack; you win or lose with this push.
If you see lots of gas units (12+ infestors, more than a dozen ish banes), then he's not hive rushing as fast and you have another minute or two of leeway. This means you can clear the first few waves of creep more freely, siege outside, and advance abit more slowly. Your goal is to lure him into battle with at least part of your army off creep, but if you have to fight on creep, so be it. Just make sure you are well-pre split and target fire gas units with tanks.
Either way your goal is to make him bleed gas, which forces him to reproduce gas units to stay alive, which means later broods.
Unless he continually leapfrogs a frontal spore, which is kind of annoying to do, you should be able to delay his initial creep a long way by flying your banshee (after you make sure he spores all his other bases) in front of his creep line and picking off any tumors. Against even a really good player you should be able to prevent him from getting creep beyond the middle of the map on entombed or antiga by delaying his spread with the threat of hellion runbys early and cloak banshee later until overseer. That is considered 'playable.'
Three goals with hellion/banshee:
1) With first 4 hellions, threaten a runby into the nat/main. This forces him to either be making premature lings (pull back asap if you see them, as you can't know his speed timing) or keep his queens walling the nat ramp until he can get a full wall in. That means no tumors for this period. So you are slowing creep via threat of runby. Of course if he has all his queens on the edge of the creep, zoom right in and roast 20+ drones. Take some shots in the nat, force him to run, then go into the main and run in circles. You can rally your next 2 into the nat/third as well. On certain maps like Ohana you can threaten runbys into the third when you have 6 to keep him cautious
2) With first banshee go right for the mineral line and kill as many dronse as you can. Once his spore is up you can try to get potshots, just prioritize keeping it alive. Once spores are up at all bases, and its useful to check as some zergs get lazy, then circle in front of his creep cloaked (ala taeja vs revival on entombed) to limit his spread.
3) Make sure to keep hellions alive (unless you can get 20+ drones for them) in order to safeguard your third. Ideally you want to be making your third at the third base like flash does, unless you triple cc before gas. Also make sure he never gets watchtower with banshees after he masses speedlings to chase the hellions away.
I think in general its worth it to lead with a single drop when you push; dual drop can work too but you run the risk of your middle army being overrun. It's ok that he sees it because it makes it awkward for him to focus on both fronts at once, though obviously you want to pray he can't spread overlords. When do you drop focus more on the push than the drop; your pre spread is critical.
On November 21 2012 05:09 Abstinence wrote: Hey, a quick question - what's the best response when my 11/11 gets scouted and he 1. Uses 1 drone to deny or 2. Pulls an extra drone or 3. Goes 14 pool instead of 15 hatch?
Not 100% sure these are the best responses; just don't want to ignore this.
1. Pull another scv, or two if need be, from your main. First priority is to finish the first rax. Pull the 2nd scv off if needed; you must have that orbital on 13. Second priority is not to lose any scvs. If he scouts it fast enough you have to cancel the 2nd rax and use that scv to defend the first one. 2. I suppose this would only happen if you proxy close to him or he does some insanely dumb 11 scout. Pull 2 more scvs from your main and make sure you dont lose any scvs. Once your first marine pops out he has to run and you should take every chance to continue building when hes chasing your initial 2 scvs around. 3.14 pool (no gas) is an auto loss versus 11/11 generally. You need to be active with an scv to confirm if he took gas and if he's making lings or drones, but your priority is just to mass rines and make sure you wall your ramp. If he makes drones, you pull 8-10 scvs at 5 rines and go kill his natural. He can't hold. If he makes lings, you need to wait longer but his econ will be shot so badly eventually you will just have enough marines to kill him with scv pull or you can just defend and double expand.
On November 21 2012 05:19 zhurai wrote: Hi. I have a question about taeja's games vs dark on gsl
Both games of the BO3 he went for CC first into a marine hellion medivac timing with a quick 3rd behind it, into standard play (and on the 2nd game, eventually transitioned into sky with ghost and some tank support @ Antiga)
is that build solid for normal use (as an alternative to the hellion banshee style)?
I took notes on the build order (with some timings, some of it supply, depending on what I can see on the production tab/timer when I watched gsl)
14cc 15rax 17rax oc x2 21gas 22gas take natural with cc poke tower with 3 marines factory, reactor@rax 5-6 minutes: bunker 34 techlab@rax research stim, swap fact->reactor make a reactor on the rax again marine, hellion, stim production 52 3rd CC -- 6 hellions 61 starport (~8 min) x2 gas after 6 hellions, lift factory for techlab starport -> fact's old reactor double ebay x2 medivacs +1/+1 drop marines with hellion support into main while taking 3rd -- need good control to not get baneling'd combat shields, seige mode, seige tank (1 viking) x3 rax armory x2 reactor 11:30 ish: turrets x2 gas, +2/+2, +1 mech 13 minutes ish: 2nd factory
and then usual standard marine tank play
also is there a way to adapt this timing for a 1rax fe opening?
Frankly I think that I could get a significant lead (which generally translates into an almost auto win ) vs any Terran in the world who did this, with my zerg that I've played maybe 40-50 ZvTs in my life with. What's worse is that you can lose in two distinct ways: the counter that KR mentioned, as you force them to retreat (and lose) or push onto creep (and lose). Or they flank you when you push on creep with 6 queen ling/bane. If Zerg reacts properly, your best hope is that you can lift up almost everything and only lose a third of your army while he gets full initiative.
KR is spot on. Two relevant games, albeit somewhat dated, are Sheth vs Polt on Daybreak (MLG Columbus, pre-patch) and Mystik vs Illusion on Daybreak (WCS NA). Sheth does the counter, Mystik does the surround. Suppy vs Happy on Daybreak is a more relevant example.
In the Abyssal city game of taeja/dark Dark goes 2 hatch muta eco so it mostly evened out. In the Antiga game Dark's build was dubious and he doesn't scout, so he has weak creep, only 2 queens at the front, and no units ready. Taeja gets slightly unlucky (something very very easy to happen to you doing this) and has to run. In short, Taeja had the second and third best case scenario happen both games and he ended up even or slightly behind. The only reason he has doing this is if the Zerg does a 2 base allin blindly. Then it works out very well. But Korean Zergs for some reason have severe early game issues; I don't understand why. Thus all these Korean Terrans keep using objectively abysmal openings but they still work out, even though they should lose or put them way behind.
Dunno about that build specifically but in general marine hellion 2 medivac builds are super vulnerable to a counter speedling/bane timing before you have siege up. They can just spam lings/banes and aggro while droning and taking a 4th and it's really hard to hold. That's if you do no damage though which isn't always the case ~.`;; Even if you hold that you're still behind in econ and they should have decently timed hive coming regardless.
Frankly I think that I could get a significant lead (which generally translates into an almost auto win ) vs any Terran in the world who did this, with my zerg that I've played maybe 40-50 ZvTs in my life with. What's worse is that you can lose in two distinct ways: the counter that KR mentioned, as you force them to retreat (and lose) or push onto creep (and lose). Or they flank you when you push on creep with 6 queen ling/bane. If Zerg reacts properly, your best hope is that you can lift up almost everything and only lose a third of your army while he gets full initiative.
KR is spot on. Two relevant games, albeit somewhat dated, are Sheth vs Polt on Daybreak (MLG Columbus, pre-patch) and Mystik vs Illusion on Daybreak (WCS NA). Sheth does the counter, Mystik does the surround. Suppy vs Happy on Daybreak is a more relevant example.
In the Abyssal city game of taeja/dark Dark goes 2 hatch muta eco so it mostly evened out. In the Antiga game Dark's build was dubious and he doesn't scout, so he has weak creep, only 2 queens at the front, and no units ready. Taeja gets slightly unlucky (something very very easy to happen to you doing this) and has to run. In short, Taeja had the second and third best case scenario happen both games and he ended up even or slightly behind. The only reason he has doing this is if the Zerg does a 2 base allin blindly. Then it works out very well. But Korean Zergs for some reason have severe early game issues; I don't understand why. Thus all these Korean Terrans keep using objectively abysmal openings but they still work out, even though they should lose or put them way behind.
so I guess taeja did it as more of a metagame-ish build, but in general it just sucks for standard play
I have a question regarding TvZ. Well general idea is that i gain advantage against zerg because i defend some push without much of a loss or able to kill a good amount of drones though harass, which sets me up in good mid game or late game spot. when i try to push (with timings like before T3 units appear) i scout where his army is by droppiung or sending some hellions to get his attention away where as i set up at his 4th and try to kill it .He simply abandons his 4th base and attacks my 3rd forcing base trade. In this case i try to split my army by leaving little part to kill of 3rd and 4th base and another part to defend however when i return he simply leaves my 3rd and escapes. This put s me in bad spot bec my eco at 3rd is shattered which kinda equalize our eco since i killed his 4th and possibly 3rd if lucky. however during that forced base trade he gets his tech (T3) which later on is hard to counter since i need to get vikings or marads with almost 1 base eco(1st base almost mined and at 3rd scv line crushed. As result i can t do much to prevent this base trade situations even if i make wall offs and put bunkers how is it possible to prevent from happening?
On November 21 2012 22:35 TRpredator wrote: I have a question regarding TvZ. Well general idea is that i gain advantage against zerg because i defend some push without much of a loss or able to kill a good amount of drones though harass, which sets me up in good mid game or late game spot. when i try to push (with timings like before T3 units appear) i scout where his army is by droppiung or sending some hellions to get his attention away where as i set up at his 4th and try to kill it .He simply abandons his 4th base and attacks my 3rd forcing base trade. In this case i try to split my army by leaving little part to kill of 3rd and 4th base and another part to defend however when i return he simply leaves my 3rd and escapes. This put s me in bad spot bec my eco at 3rd is shattered which kinda equalize our eco since i killed his 4th and possibly 3rd if lucky. however during that forced base trade he gets his tech (T3) which later on is hard to counter since i need to get vikings or marads with almost 1 base eco(1st base almost mined and at 3rd scv line crushed. As result i can t do much to prevent this base trade situations even if i make wall offs and put bunkers how is it possible to prevent from happening?
I'd say, fortifie your natural as good as possible, while he rips your 3rd and go for the full basetrade. Lift up a few buildings from your main and float them away to 1) the edge of the map, if he has no air-to-air, or 2) to your army, if he has (try to get around his army, so he doesn't notice). Maybe even both. An alternative would be to move a small to middleish force into his main to kick the T3 buildings and the rest back to "save" the 3rd. It depends a bit on what you're playing, bio or mech (couldn't find a clear statement about that). Mech is too slow to go back and safe your base, so you're better off with the basetrade. Bio could be possible.
BurningRanger Germany. November 21 2012 23:04. Posts 121 PM Profile Quote # On November 21 2012 22:35 TRpredator wrote: I have a question regarding TvZ. Well general idea is that i gain advantage against zerg because i defend some push without much of a loss or able to kill a good amount of drones though harass, which sets me up in good mid game or late game spot. when i try to push (with timings like before T3 units appear) i scout where his army is by droppiung or sending some hellions to get his attention away where as i set up at his 4th and try to kill it .He simply abandons his 4th base and attacks my 3rd forcing base trade. In this case i try to split my army by leaving little part to kill of 3rd and 4th base and another part to defend however when i return he simply leaves my 3rd and escapes. This put s me in bad spot bec my eco at 3rd is shattered which kinda equalize our eco since i killed his 4th and possibly 3rd if lucky. however during that forced base trade he gets his tech (T3) which later on is hard to counter since i need to get vikings or marads with almost 1 base eco(1st base almost mined and at 3rd scv line crushed. As result i can t do much to prevent this base trade situations even if i make wall offs and put bunkers how is it possible to prevent from happening?
I'd say, fortifie your natural as good as possible, while he rips your 3rd and go for the full basetrade. Lift up a few buildings from your main and float them away to 1) the edge of the map, if he has no air-to-air, or 2) to your army, if he has (try to get around his army, so he doesn't notice). Maybe even both. An alternative would be to move a small to middleish force into his main to kick the T3 buildings and the rest back to "save" the 3rd. It depends a bit on what you're playing, bio or mech (couldn't find a clear statement about that). Mech is too slow to go back and safe your base, so you're better off with the basetrade. Bio could be possible.Last edit: 2012-11-21 23:05:23
Well i don t like playing certain style so i have variation of mech and bio mech builds. In case of mech i get countered by roach base trades and if he gets into the main i m pretty much dead bec he can get burrowed movement upgrade and game is pretty much finished. however in case of marine tank it s a bit harder because i get base trades when he goes for mutas which breaks fortification with rather ez u could say(tanks on the edge is useless and if u don t have sufficient marines number fortification will be broken not saying how good banelings can blow up buildings) so i can very much lose the game bec i won t have any buildings left as he can get far away expos due to his mutalisk tech and even if i ll have bigger army i ll get killed by simple technical victory
Almost every high-level Korean TvP I've watched recently that wasn't some sort of 1/2 base heavy aggression / all-in from either side has ended with a massive bio / viking push with ~ half of their scv's pulled a short time after the Protoss takes their third. This seems to happen regardless of whether or not the Terran has an advantage coming into the mid-game. I haven't seen this against a High Templar first builds (since so many Protoss are going for double forge Collosi -> third builds, my instinct tells me this wouldn't be as strong vs Templar builds since the scv's wouldn't mess with storm the way they do collosi attacks). What's causing this metagame shift? Is it because Protoss is too hard to face in the late game and the Terran wants to try to finish it before Protoss gets on 3 base, or because Protoss is playing too greedy and Terrans found a way to punish it? If so what triggers them to know that the Protoss is playing greedy? While I haven't seen this push fail yet, it seems to win by only a hair's breadth, and especially when Terran has a clear economy advantage in the mid game it seems weird to see them going for this all-in.
On November 22 2012 19:10 Pursuit_ wrote: Almost every high-level Korean TvP I've watched recently that wasn't some sort of 1/2 base heavy aggression / all-in from either side has ended with a massive bio / viking push with ~ half of their scv's pulled a short time after the Protoss takes their third. This seems to happen regardless of whether or not the Terran has an advantage coming into the mid-game. I haven't seen this against a High Templar first builds (since so many Protoss are going for double forge Collosi -> third builds, my instinct tells me this wouldn't be as strong vs Templar builds since the scv's wouldn't mess with storm the way they do collosi attacks). What's causing this metagame shift? Is it because Protoss is too hard to face in the late game and the Terran wants to try to finish it before Protoss gets on 3 base, or because Protoss is playing too greedy and Terrans found a way to punish it? If so what triggers them to know that the Protoss is playing greedy? While I haven't seen this push fail yet, it seems to win by only a hair's breadth, and especially when Terran has a clear economy advantage in the mid game it seems weird to see them going for this all-in.
The scv pull is going for the timing where P's are cutting gas units (stalker/colo) to get HT. It's not necessarily protoss greed. The scv pull lets them get several more volleys of viking shots on the colossus before bio units start getting killed. Really depends on how well P micros with FF and focus firing vikings to decide the game.
That timing is different against storm because storm is just super good against scvs but also because T can't really afford ghosts before 3base economy, so going 2base ghost scv pull they would have to get ghost academy really early and it would be really allin since they can't afford the 3rd cc. Then they would be praying ht's never get good storms off (but if ht's are spread this is obviously ridiculously stupid to pray for). +_+
When are some good times to temporarily cut scvs to get production buildings/gas/more units out faster? Such as I sometimes briefly cut scvs to have double gas before 2nd dept after 1rax expo in TvZ (get blocked briefly because I delay depot)? I'm trying to learn some more aggressive builds.
Also, is the counter to a 1rax expo in TvT when you've already 1rax expod to go triple CC before gas?
If I'm going gas first and I've scouted my opponent going 1rax expo, is it worth going for 1base allin automatically?
If I'm going 1rax expo -> 3rax combat shield, and I see my opponent going 1base marine tank allin, is it worth trying to engage outside my base? I.e. on Daybreak is it worth trying to meet the opponents army at the watch tower?
Is it worth engineering bay blocking a protoss who ISN'T skipping his zealot, and hasn't taken his second gas?
Is it worth engineering bay blocking a protoss who HAS taken 2nd gas and is mining 3per geyser.
Is it ever worth it going 10scout and engineering bay block TvZ on a 2 player map?
Are there any decent ghost timing attacks (i.e. before factory get ghost) timings in TvP?
What's the best way to play on maps like Entombed & Antiga in TvP? If I go 1rax expo on lowground and I scout them last and they're close position, if they went 12gate chronod zlot/stalker it does a lot of damage if I don't go bunker immediately after command center (i.e. depot, cc, bunker, depot, rest of build). However if I do that and they've gone nexus first I'm a bit more behind then I'd like to be. Should I 1) deal with it and play normally 2) send two scouts 3) open gas on that map? 3) just triple cc after seeing it? Last time this situation happened (I had rushed bunker and scouted nexus first last) I went triple CC but because they went nexus first their gateway timing was that much quicker and I lost because I had 3 bunkers facing my natural ramp but they isolated them 1 by 1 by breaking my side rocks and coming in.
Hi im a masters terran currently struggling with T v P. I always open 1 rax fe into 3 rax, or quick 3rd cc forgg style, and have no problem winning in the midgame if my opponent commits to colos -> a 13-14 min timing attack with 6 vikings usually kills them?
However, I am very weak at midgame decision making. 1) If Toss opens templar tech rather than colos, I tend to get a faster armoury for double upgrades, faster 3rd whilst getting a ghost academy, all around 10-12min. However, my ghost count always seems to be less than idea (around 2-4?) and I have no idea what to do afterwards.
2) Poor medivac pressure - What is the correct approach for this? It never seems like a wise idea to stim into the natural and try to take out sentries - I can never trade effectively. Should I wait for 4 medivacs and try a two-pronged attack instead?
3) Knowing when to move out and attack - Till to this day, T v P seems like a rather bizzare matchup for me. I have no idea when to actually attack, indications of weaknesses in protoss play. Do I wait for my upgrades? Do I do a timing attack? I cant make informed decisions in this matchup at all.
4) Watching ForGG stream, he seems to be able to take out tosses in 13-14min attacks, way before both robo and templar tech trees attain a critical mass. How do I end my T v P matches in the midgame (through timing attacks), preferably when he is trying to get his second tech path to work (i.e from robo to hts)? I am terrible at juggling between viking and ghost numbers in the late game.
5) Not sure if anyone knows about ForGG's build where he gets a 3rd CC early and powers on 8 raxes, but how can I ulitise the strengths of this build effectively?
Assuming i go cc first and scout no gas - in fact a queen build with a 3rd base between 3:30 and 6:30. What should be my reaction depending on my scouting?
Should i delay my starport for a few secs and get my third cc right after my factory or should i try to go for a hellion+cloak banshee timing and maybe destroy his 3rd? Whats the better choice for a mech player?
I love to see people that are trying to get the community to play better.
So, I am Master Protoss on EU and recently I realized that PvT is my worst matchup.
I figured out that I usually play too safe and thus am far behind against any fast 3rd CC or double upgrades. My play was: 1 Forge, fast 2 no-range Colossi -> Charge -> Storm at 1-2 my 2end Forge finishes.
After third Base Colossi Range and 4th.
I started dying to any form of greed like fas 3 CCs double Gas.
I tryed to go for 2 Base all-ins but more often than no Terran defended it easily.
So now I am at a loss. I tried Creator style but with the same information and the same units Terran just kill me around 10-11 minutes, dropping in the main and running up the natural. I checked various replays and my opponents seem to delay upgrades a little and simply pump from 5 Barracks, overwhelming me easily while getting a third CC. Creator's Terran opponents simply walk in circles in front of the ramp with less units at this time and if they would drop he would take significant damage. (Here it is somewhere around 1 Colossus just finished, 3-4 Sentries 3 Zealots and 3-5 Stalkers against like 25-30 Marines/Marauders and 2-4 Medivacs)
Do you think Creator style is even possible at lower levels where players will just attack and see what happens?
What other safe macro oriented style would be a good choice? Is there something fundamentally I might be missing in my defence? Usually Terran scans my natural to see my army. If there are no Stalkers there he will try to pick off units one by one, if he sees the Stalkers he will drop 2 Medivacs worth of units in my main. He can safely run up the ramp, if I cut off a portion of his army with Forcefields he can evacuate with Medivacs because I have my Stalkers in the main defending against drops..
On November 29 2012 20:47 GaryOakSC2 wrote: Hey, awesome job!
I love to see people that are trying to get the community to play better.
So, I am Master Protoss on EU and recently I realized that PvT is my worst matchup.
I figured out that I usually play too safe and thus am far behind against any fast 3rd CC or double upgrades. My play was: 1 Forge, fast 2 no-range Colossi -> Charge -> Storm at 1-2 my 2end Forge finishes.
After third Base Colossi Range and 4th.
I started dying to any form of greed like fas 3 CCs double Gas.
I tryed to go for 2 Base all-ins but more often than no Terran defended it easily.
So now I am at a loss. I tried Creator style but with the same information and the same units Terran just kill me around 10-11 minutes, dropping in the main and running up the natural. I checked various replays and my opponents seem to delay upgrades a little and simply pump from 5 Barracks, overwhelming me easily while getting a third CC. Creator's Terran opponents simply walk in circles in front of the ramp with less units at this time and if they would drop he would take significant damage. (Here it is somewhere around 1 Colossus just finished, 3-4 Sentries 3 Zealots and 3-5 Stalkers against like 25-30 Marines/Marauders and 2-4 Medivacs)
Do you think Creator style is even possible at lower levels where players will just attack and see what happens?
What other safe macro oriented style would be a good choice? Is there something fundamentally I might be missing in my defence? Usually Terran scans my natural to see my army. If there are no Stalkers there he will try to pick off units one by one, if he sees the Stalkers he will drop 2 Medivacs worth of units in my main. He can safely run up the ramp, if I cut off a portion of his army with Forcefields he can evacuate with Medivacs because I have my Stalkers in the main defending against drops..
If you read my guide on Creator style, it says to make cannons against mass barrack aggression. Creator style is fragile against the popular 10 minute medivac timing properly executed at high levels, but against everything else, it's still a very strong build.
(Here it is somewhere around 1 Colossus just finished, 3-4 Sentries 3 Zealots and 3-5 Stalkers against like 25-30 Marines/Marauders and 2-4 Medivacs)
If you have this kind of composition when using a creator style, you're doing something wrong. It's more like you have 3 sentries, 8 zealots, 6 stalkers before you get a single colossi.
Edit: just realized this is the Pro Terran thread. Someone else feel free to answer.
Hey Ver, this is a pretty short and simple question. Are maps where the main can be accessed from the low ground, particularly good for the 1/1/1 (marine tank banshee variant)?
On November 29 2012 20:47 GaryOakSC2 wrote: Hey, awesome job!
I love to see people that are trying to get the community to play better.
So, I am Master Protoss on EU and recently I realized that PvT is my worst matchup.
I figured out that I usually play too safe and thus am far behind against any fast 3rd CC or double upgrades. My play was: 1 Forge, fast 2 no-range Colossi -> Charge -> Storm at 1-2 my 2end Forge finishes.
After third Base Colossi Range and 4th.
I started dying to any form of greed like fas 3 CCs double Gas.
I tryed to go for 2 Base all-ins but more often than no Terran defended it easily.
So now I am at a loss. I tried Creator style but with the same information and the same units Terran just kill me around 10-11 minutes, dropping in the main and running up the natural. I checked various replays and my opponents seem to delay upgrades a little and simply pump from 5 Barracks, overwhelming me easily while getting a third CC. Creator's Terran opponents simply walk in circles in front of the ramp with less units at this time and if they would drop he would take significant damage. (Here it is somewhere around 1 Colossus just finished, 3-4 Sentries 3 Zealots and 3-5 Stalkers against like 25-30 Marines/Marauders and 2-4 Medivacs)
Do you think Creator style is even possible at lower levels where players will just attack and see what happens?
What other safe macro oriented style would be a good choice? Is there something fundamentally I might be missing in my defence? Usually Terran scans my natural to see my army. If there are no Stalkers there he will try to pick off units one by one, if he sees the Stalkers he will drop 2 Medivacs worth of units in my main. He can safely run up the ramp, if I cut off a portion of his army with Forcefields he can evacuate with Medivacs because I have my Stalkers in the main defending against drops..
Why are you making two no range colossus? If you make one you should be able to defend attacks with good ff.and focus on marines. This should help you get charge faster. Stalkers should be defending in the main and you rely.on ff.and one Colo in Nat. Once you have charge and hts you can fb medivacs to stop.their pressure then make archons or save up energy for storm if they don't. Sorry for random periods im on my phone
On November 29 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: Assuming i go cc first and scout no gas - in fact a queen build with a 3rd base between 3:30 and 6:30. What should be my reaction depending on my scouting?
Should i delay my starport for a few secs and get my third cc right after my factory or should i try to go for a hellion+cloak banshee timing and maybe destroy his 3rd? Whats the better choice for a mech player?
On November 29 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: Assuming i go cc first and scout no gas - in fact a queen build with a 3rd base between 3:30 and 6:30. What should be my reaction depending on my scouting?
Should i delay my starport for a few secs and get my third cc right after my factory or should i try to go for a hellion+cloak banshee timing and maybe destroy his 3rd? Whats the better choice for a mech player?
anyone?
High master terran here.
If you mech, I would lean on trying to outgreed the zerg and getting that third, especially on big maps like Daybreak. The more gas geysers that you can get while meching the better it is since mech revolves around gas units. The hellions guarantee that you won't be threatened for a while since you have map control and if you are you can react in time.
The great thing about hellion banshee while expanding behind is that you can harass the zerg easily with hellions while maintaining map control. Conversely, hellion banshee doesn't work so incredibly well against zerg since they've adapted quite a bit.
Cloak is a worthwhile investment when going mech since if zerg does not get mutas out, they can't deal with them very well resulting in favorable trades.
Someone with more knowledge than me can feel free to correct me.
tl;dr: Get the third, the cloak banshees can wait a while.
During IPL5 Korean regionals and the main IPL5 event Polt played some of his TvZ with a fast 2 base marine, heavy marauder hellion aggression that hits around the 9 min mark, give or take half a min with +1 attack, CS, and stim. It hits during the time when zerg is getting his tech, but before he is able to get any of the tech units out such as mutas or infestors. He then transitions into normal marine, tank, and medivac, taking his third later than usual around the 11 to 12 min mark
Depending on whether or not the Zerg takes gas or not, he would take a extremely fast third if the zerg does not take gas otherwise he would continue on with his regular 2 base aggression
It is safe against zerg all ins, yet you can also punish zergs that go for fast 3 base economy.
I was wondering if this sort of strategy is viable in the longterm, or is hellion banshee 3cc the only way to go in TvZ. Is Polt's playstyle only viable due to Korean Zergs most of the times avoid sacing ovies into the Terran base?
He said its a good way to fight the zergs in the time when they want to drone hard and get their stuff as soon as possible and polt exploits that time to disturb their tech. you might want to check it out ~
I just finished reading Ver's comprehensive guide on improving. Kudos to a very well thought out guide. My question regards TvT openers, there are a couple that are talked about in this thread (and also reflected on the front page of the Terran help me thread)
1) a 1/1/1 base play, usually a banshee expo or hellion elevator 2) rax cc/14 cc into 3 rax tech into medivacs 3) Thorzain's greedy variant of 2) 4) rax cc 1/1/1
For a macro-oriented player that is focused on improving his mechanics, which opening do you guys suggest?
Hi in TvT when it gets to super late game and i have a maxed out air army, how do i control my bcs,viking, and ravens? Do i focus more on seeker missiles or using the yamato cannon? Also how many ravens and bcs should i get or does it depend on the situation.Thank you.
-NerdCrusher December 06 2012 14:30. Posts 12 Hi in TvT when it gets to super late game and i have a maxed out air army, how do i control my bcs,viking, and ravens? Do i focus more on seeker missiles or using the yamato cannon? Also how many ravens and bcs should i get or does it depend on the situation.Thank you.
high master here I usually have 3 hotkeys and in late game they re helpful. on 1 u get your whole air army and priority unit is raven so u don t rly need seperate hot key for ravens. Another hot key is for bc so u can instantly use it after hsm and pdd ofc if needed and another one is for ghosts(ofc if u have them in composition). u should go in thi order emp/hsm and then pay attention to bc. high number are pretty much useless so u build only 4-8. u need them o tank dmg and poke with yamato canon. u need 16-18 vikings t one shot BC s and as much as possible ravens since they re energy units and hsm is powerful enough to take out any unit.
Priorities: 1) BC's in front yamato enemy ravens (your vikings back) 2) Ravens throw PDD and missiles on enemy vikings + your vikings arrives fucking things up
You should lose more BC than viking, and clean enemy army... so u just reinforce with some bc's to clear ground, and few viking to keep air superiority.
But again, it's situational.. if he have thor I yamato them, and I also don't build too many raven.
What's the game plan goal behind a Flash-style 1 rax FE -> 3rax (2 reactor, 1 tech) against P?
The opening hits the P base at 10:20-10:25 with a large number of marines, 1-2 rauders, 2 medivacs, +1, and combat shields, and Flash will often take his 3rd before adding additional rax. The part I don't understand is what you're trying to do in the long term with this build, because here's what I'm finding:
Arrive at 10:00 with my units, break down any rocks (if applicable), wait until CS finishes & medivacs arrive, and poke in, with results falling into a couple categories:
a) Protoss has done some kind of 3 gate robo opening with 1-2 forges, low unit count, but 1st collosus is out at ~9:30, so by the time I press @ 10:30 ish there is only about 10-15 seconds before the second collosus comes out, and they will also often have a 1 upgrade advantage - so no damage is really done, maybe I trade a few marines for a sentry. At this point I just try to delay their 3rd as long as possible while saturating mine.
b) Protoss has done a fast forge -> templar opening. Storm finishes around 10:30, completely deflects my attack because it's marine heavy. Again, I try to deny their 3rd to prevent them from taking a 5th/6th gas and ramping up templar production as long as possible, will throw down a ghost academy asap.
c) Protoss did something ridiculous like 2 forge, fast templar, robo bay, 4 expos, and just dies to 1a and the game ends.
Now, my problem is that in scenarios a) and b), even though I usually get my 3rd up 4-5 minutes before the P, one of two things happens: either they take their third and turtle up forever till 3/3 and mass collo/templar, in which case I almost always lose, or they take their 3rd and counter with the units off 2 bases and kill me because they have either an upgrade advantage, a tech advantage, or both.
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins. But for the P, they can often have 2/2 by 14 mins or even earlier if they went something like 1 gate double forge into robo and I don't kill them - they might even be on 3/3 before I'm on 2/2. So I don't have a really clean 200/200 2/2 push that can hit them before they get templar+storm up (if they open robo) or collosus (if they open templar). Once the game goes into 3-4 base mode I almost never win, and I rarely see professional T players win this way either - they usually win before that. So what gives?
For reference, I was masters KR T last season, and am getting back into playing again.
Fission December 07 2012 00:39. Posts 696 --moved from terran ask me thread--
What's the game plan goal behind a Flash-style 1 rax FE -> 3rax (2 reactor, 1 tech) against P?
The opening hits the P base at 10:20-10:25 with a large number of marines, 1-2 rauders, 2 medivacs, +1, and combat shields, and Flash will often take his 3rd before adding additional rax. The part I don't understand is what you're trying to do in the long term with this build, because here's what I'm finding:
Arrive at 10:00 with my units, break down any rocks (if applicable), wait until CS finishes & medivacs arrive, and poke in, with results falling into a couple categories:
a) Protoss has done some kind of 3 gate robo opening with 1-2 forges, low unit count, but 1st collosus is out at ~9:30, so by the time I press @ 10:30 ish there is only about 10-15 seconds before the second collosus comes out, and they will also often have a 1 upgrade advantage - so no damage is really done, maybe I trade a few marines for a sentry. At this point I just try to delay their 3rd as long as possible while saturating mine.
b) Protoss has done a fast forge -> templar opening. Storm finishes around 10:30, completely deflects my attack because it's marine heavy. Again, I try to deny their 3rd to prevent them from taking a 5th/6th gas and ramping up templar production as long as possible, will throw down a ghost academy asap.
c) Protoss did something ridiculous like 2 forge, fast templar, robo bay, 4 expos, and just dies to 1a and the game ends.
Now, my problem is that in scenarios a) and b), even though I usually get my 3rd up 4-5 minutes before the P, one of two things happens: either they take their third and turtle up forever till 3/3 and mass collo/templar, in which case I almost always lose, or they take their 3rd and counter with the units off 2 bases and kill me because they have either an upgrade advantage, a tech advantage, or both.
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins. But for the P, they can often have 2/2 by 14 mins or even earlier if they went something like 1 gate double forge into robo and I don't kill them - they might even be on 3/3 before I'm on 2/2. So I don't have a really clean 200/200 2/2 push that can hit them before they get templar+storm up (if they open robo) or collosus (if they open templar). Once the game goes into 3-4 base mode I almost never win, and I rarely see professional T players win this way either - they usually win before that. So what gives?
For reference, I was masters KR T last season, and am getting back into playing again.
a) case: In case gets colosus u have an advantage of dropping him at multiple location at the same time since only 1 colos he can t defend all drops and run bys which leaves him creepled for he later stage where u decide wherether to expand or finish game with popular timing when protoss switch his tech. b) case: plz check 1st page how to punish greedy protoss since everything explained there properly with examples.
On December 07 2012 00:39 Fission wrote: --moved from terran ask me thread--
What's the game plan goal behind a Flash-style 1 rax FE -> 3rax (2 reactor, 1 tech) against P?
The opening hits the P base at 10:20-10:25 with a large number of marines, 1-2 rauders, 2 medivacs, +1, and combat shields, and Flash will often take his 3rd before adding additional rax. The part I don't understand is what you're trying to do in the long term with this build, because here's what I'm finding:
Arrive at 10:00 with my units, break down any rocks (if applicable), wait until CS finishes & medivacs arrive, and poke in, with results falling into a couple categories:
a) Protoss has done some kind of 3 gate robo opening with 1-2 forges, low unit count, but 1st collosus is out at ~9:30, so by the time I press @ 10:30 ish there is only about 10-15 seconds before the second collosus comes out, and they will also often have a 1 upgrade advantage - so no damage is really done, maybe I trade a few marines for a sentry. At this point I just try to delay their 3rd as long as possible while saturating mine.
b) Protoss has done a fast forge -> templar opening. Storm finishes around 10:30, completely deflects my attack because it's marine heavy. Again, I try to deny their 3rd to prevent them from taking a 5th/6th gas and ramping up templar production as long as possible, will throw down a ghost academy asap.
c) Protoss did something ridiculous like 2 forge, fast templar, robo bay, 4 expos, and just dies to 1a and the game ends.
Now, my problem is that in scenarios a) and b), even though I usually get my 3rd up 4-5 minutes before the P, one of two things happens: either they take their third and turtle up forever till 3/3 and mass collo/templar, in which case I almost always lose, or they take their 3rd and counter with the units off 2 bases and kill me because they have either an upgrade advantage, a tech advantage, or both.
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins. But for the P, they can often have 2/2 by 14 mins or even earlier if they went something like 1 gate double forge into robo and I don't kill them - they might even be on 3/3 before I'm on 2/2. So I don't have a really clean 200/200 2/2 push that can hit them before they get templar+storm up (if they open robo) or collosus (if they open templar). Once the game goes into 3-4 base mode I almost never win, and I rarely see professional T players win this way either - they usually win before that. So what gives?
For reference, I was masters KR T last season, and am getting back into playing again.
Putting aside drops, which you can opt to do/should do - the timing most korean terrans go for atm is a quick max with many vikings before storm. Poke around and get a general idea of when he's getting templars and how many collos he's making. Make many vikings and rax (delay ghost academy, and dont get a second starport(settle for 4 medivacs)). Some players opt to forgo getting 2-2 (Bogus vs Squirtle on cloud kingdom in IPL 5 example). And then hit hard possibly pulling scvs and crush their non-templar army. In this case you probably don't want to drop too much 'cause you're just building army for this timing. If you got your third earlier, you should also be able to outplay your opponent even if he does hit templar/colossus simply because of your tech advantage. When he takes a 3rd take a 4th and play for the lategame, when terran is ahead you can outplay the protoss in the lategame, sacrificing scvs and getting a massive army value lead.
Either way, if your 3rd is 4-5 minutes earlier you have many options and you're in a great spot. Just don't get into the mindset that says oh no hes got templars and collos and panic.
On December 07 2012 00:39 Fission wrote: --moved from terran ask me thread--
What's the game plan goal behind a Flash-style 1 rax FE -> 3rax (2 reactor, 1 tech) against P?
The opening hits the P base at 10:20-10:25 with a large number of marines, 1-2 rauders, 2 medivacs, +1, and combat shields, and Flash will often take his 3rd before adding additional rax. The part I don't understand is what you're trying to do in the long term with this build, because here's what I'm finding:
Arrive at 10:00 with my units, break down any rocks (if applicable), wait until CS finishes & medivacs arrive, and poke in, with results falling into a couple categories:
a) Protoss has done some kind of 3 gate robo opening with 1-2 forges, low unit count, but 1st collosus is out at ~9:30, so by the time I press @ 10:30 ish there is only about 10-15 seconds before the second collosus comes out, and they will also often have a 1 upgrade advantage - so no damage is really done, maybe I trade a few marines for a sentry. At this point I just try to delay their 3rd as long as possible while saturating mine.
b) Protoss has done a fast forge -> templar opening. Storm finishes around 10:30, completely deflects my attack because it's marine heavy. Again, I try to deny their 3rd to prevent them from taking a 5th/6th gas and ramping up templar production as long as possible, will throw down a ghost academy asap.
c) Protoss did something ridiculous like 2 forge, fast templar, robo bay, 4 expos, and just dies to 1a and the game ends.
Now, my problem is that in scenarios a) and b), even though I usually get my 3rd up 4-5 minutes before the P, one of two things happens: either they take their third and turtle up forever till 3/3 and mass collo/templar, in which case I almost always lose, or they take their 3rd and counter with the units off 2 bases and kill me because they have either an upgrade advantage, a tech advantage, or both.
So my +1 finishes @10:20 with this build, +1 armor finishes @ 13:00, and then earliest it's possible to have 2/2 is just after 16 mins. But for the P, they can often have 2/2 by 14 mins or even earlier if they went something like 1 gate double forge into robo and I don't kill them - they might even be on 3/3 before I'm on 2/2. So I don't have a really clean 200/200 2/2 push that can hit them before they get templar+storm up (if they open robo) or collosus (if they open templar). Once the game goes into 3-4 base mode I almost never win, and I rarely see professional T players win this way either - they usually win before that. So what gives?
For reference, I was masters KR T last season, and am getting back into playing again.
when flash did this build he applied a shitton of pressure with his bio once stim finishes. It's possible to actually kill Protoss's in this time if they are doing a colossus build and haven't got their colossus out yet and for some reason they don't notice you out on the map or are just being super duper greedy bastards.
If you're not going to be as aggressive with these unist or think it's just a silly idea then don't get add ons before factory.
I just finished reading Ver's comprehensive guide on improving. Kudos to a very well thought out guide. My question regards TvT openers, there are a couple that are talked about in this thread (and also reflected on the front page of the Terran help me thread)
1) a 1/1/1 base play, usually a banshee expo or hellion elevator 2) rax cc/14 cc into 3 rax tech into medivacs 3) Thorzain's greedy variant of 2) 4) rax cc 1/1/1
For a macro-oriented player that is focused on improving his mechanics, which opening do you guys suggest?
Cheers.
Any of them really. None of those are the best standard macro build, they all do something and expand or expand and then do something, you'll always be on 2 base at some point. It's more about how you play out all the situations, some of which will just murder the shit out of you and make you extremely mad.
As I posted in the help me thread -- I'm looking for very standard build orders to go up with TvT, TvZ, and TvP. I've been out of the game for over 5 months, and while I'm hugely rusty I have forgotten what build orders go where, and my games are a total mess. I want to practice the builds and learn what to stress... and I need the timings/BOs to do it!
Any links/ideas would be helpful. Day9 is good but he goes too far in depth in his analysis, and has too many builds to analyse for my benefit. I'm not a pro, I just want a solid foundation to build upon and if I watch Day9 my mind can't be made up, and my builds look like a combination of everything he says :p
I'd like to gather opinions on 3 different midgame bio styles in tvp as i want to further my understanding on different styles in this matchup, and how they should be played: 1) the difference in effectiveness between going 3 rax medivac into third and 5 rax medivac into third against various protoss styles 2) bomber's build, which delays factory tech slightly to allow the player to either add a quick third or 2 additional raxes around 830 without compromising production 3) getting armory and 2nd ebay before 3rd cc
These days, I find going 5 rax before 3rd to be less effective if protoss does a defensive 2 base tech-heavy style, and i find that the earlier third gives you the added advantage of a strong 3 max base timing to break toss before he hits max. I don't really see how going 5 rax instead of 3 will allow you to delay his third much longer, as he will be eventually able to defend drops while having a more cost effective army to engage yours, which forces you to back off and just take your third (which won't be much earlier than his, reducing the effectiveness of a follow-up timing perhaps before storm). Yet, I still see most pros going for 2 additional raxes before the 3rd cc.
Am I missing something here, or perhaps i'm playing wrongly?
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: When are some good times to temporarily cut scvs to get production buildings/gas/more units out faster? Such as I sometimes briefly cut scvs to have double gas before 2nd dept after 1rax expo in TvZ (get blocked briefly because I delay depot)? I'm trying to learn some more aggressive builds.
Around 10' when you 1 rax expand in TvP, to get your third and/or Barracks #4 and #5 faster (if you don't use Bomber's variation which has its own timings).
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: Also, is the counter to a 1rax expo in TvT when you've already 1rax expod to go triple CC before gas?
I would not call this a “counter,” but it's a common answer, yes.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: If I'm going gas first and I've scouted my opponent going 1rax expo, is it worth going for 1base allin automatically?
No, you will freelose to dual gas 1-1-1 follow-ups while not having an auto-win against bio follow-ups.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: If I'm going 1rax expo -> 3rax combat shield, and I see my opponent going 1base marine tank allin, is it worth trying to engage outside my base? I.e. on Daybreak is it worth trying to meet the opponents army at the watch tower?
You need to try to delay his push by forcing Siege repeatedly, you don't want to engage with your Marines alone as he should have enough to crush you.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: Is it worth engineering bay blocking a protoss who ISN'T skipping his zealot, and hasn't taken his second gas?
Depends on your scouting SCV timing. If you scout after Barracks you don't have much time if you first head towards his main then go back to the natural (assuming 0 Chronoboost on Gateway and 13 scout, Zealot is out at ~3'40). Besides, to be safe, you need to pull another SCV and try to sneak it on the map to make sure he expanded if you lost the SCV who built the EB.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: Is it worth engineering bay blocking a protoss who HAS taken 2nd gas and is mining 3per geyser.
You won't have the time if you scout whether he has 3 Pylons or not in his base (important to rule out early proxies).
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: Is it ever worth it going 10scout and engineering bay block TvZ on a 2 player map?
No.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: Are there any decent ghost timing attacks (i.e. before factory get ghost) timings in TvP?
No, since EMP is 1.5 radius a Stim timing with 2 Ghosts is too weak.
On November 25 2012 18:07 teamamerica wrote: What's the best way to play on maps like Entombed & Antiga in TvP? If I go 1rax expo on lowground and I scout them last and they're close position, if they went 12gate chronod zlot/stalker it does a lot of damage if I don't go bunker immediately after command center (i.e. depot, cc, bunker, depot, rest of build).
That's quite a lot of “if”. You never need to Bunker before second Depot, a Zealot alone can't do anything against 2 or 3 Marines because you just walk away with the one being chased by the Zealot while the other(s) fire. Worst case scenario you just retreat and pull some SCVs to deal with this.
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On November 25 2012 18:42 ThaSlayer wrote: However, I am very weak at midgame decision making. 1) If Toss opens templar tech rather than colos, I tend to get a faster armoury for double upgrades, faster 3rd whilst getting a ghost academy, all around 10-12min. However, my ghost count always seems to be less than idea (around 2-4?) and I have no idea what to do afterwards.
You need more Ghosts as you will likely lose some to the Zealot swarm, aim at least at 8. Keep scouting so you don't get surprised by the likely double Robotics Colossus tech switch. Personnally, if I am in a decent spot, I get Cloak and try to attack at +2 attack if it matches his armor upgrade; if you manage to kill Observers nearby your cloaked Ghosts can EMP/Snipe all his Templars, one of the rare situations in which you can keep your Marines in a tight formation and blissfully 1a your way to victory. That's an ideal situation, of course (one Cannon can prevent your cloaked Ghosts from reaching all Templars).
As HTs usually come along with many Charge Zealots, don't get more than 10-15 Marauders unless you first decide to spend all your gas on Medivacs, quickly reaching 10-12 of them so you can keep dropping/fighting despite Storms and repetitive Stims.
On November 25 2012 18:42 ThaSlayer wrote: 2) Poor medivac pressure - What is the correct approach for this? It never seems like a wise idea to stim into the natural and try to take out sentries - I can never trade effectively. Should I wait for 4 medivacs and try a two-pronged attack instead?
When you move out with your first 2 Medivacs, it's more of a poke than a real timing. As you probably experienced, painfuls things do happen if you try to force your way through a ramp, so unless Protoss went some kind of horrible build not allowing him to defend this simple pressure, just soft contain him while waiting reinforcements / more information about what he's up to. When Medivacs #3 and 4 arrive you have more possibilities; you can try a quadruple drop when Protoss moves out his army near his warping third while moving the rest of your army to cancel the warping Nexus, etc. But there are games in which nothing special happens and you just get away with a faster third (preferably built directly in its location).
On November 25 2012 18:42 ThaSlayer wrote: 3) Knowing when to move out and attack - Till to this day, T v P seems like a rather bizzare matchup for me. I have no idea when to actually attack, indications of weaknesses in protoss play. Do I wait for my upgrades? Do I do a timing attack? I cant make informed decisions in this matchup at all.
Weaknesses in Protoss play: generally when he's tech switching (particularly from Colossi to HTs, see KawaiiRice's answer above on SCV pulls) or when he's getting a key upgrade (Charge, Storm, Thermal Lance when switching from HTs to Colossi). To attack, you have to make sure you have appropriate counters in appropriate numbers (not enough Vikings against 3+ Colossi or no Ghosts against multiple Storms = huge no-no), and it's much better if your attack upgrade matches his armor upgrade; actually I feel it's almost mandatory against Zealots with Charge. Of course there may be situations in which you can win fights despite an upgrade disadvantage, e. g. you have a high Medivac count against Zealots/Archons/HTs, or you murdered his Colossi so he lacks AoE damage, or you have several Ghosts ready for his Storm-less 3-0-3 timing, or you just outnumber him so badly it doesn't matter, etc., but generally you don't trade well when your opponent has the upgrade advantage (his armor vs your attack) over you.
I suggest you watch Bomber vs Crank (both games) @ Lone Star Clash II and his TvPs @ IPL5, there are good examples of nice multi-pronged (Bomber vs Creator on EV) and timing attacks, some of them with SCVs.
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On November 29 2012 04:33 saaaa wrote: Assuming i go cc first and scout no gas - in fact a queen build with a 3rd base between 3:30 and 6:30. What should be my reaction depending on my scouting?
Should i delay my starport for a few secs and get my third cc right after my factory or should i try to go for a hellion+cloak banshee timing and maybe destroy his 3rd? Whats the better choice for a mech player?
Unless your scouting SCV saw an early third morphing you can't decide anything upon scouting Zerg opened gasless because he can take dual gas and go agressive afterwards. Even triple Hatchery before Pool doesn't necessarily mean passive macro play. By the time you confirm a 6 Queens build with your first Hellions, you already chose your follow-up, so… Your choice in the end.
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On December 06 2012 03:00 NoZyneighbor wrote: During IPL5 Korean regionals and the main IPL5 event Polt played some of his TvZ with a fast 2 base marine, heavy marauder hellion aggression that hits around the 9 min mark, give or take half a min with +1 attack, CS, and stim. It hits during the time when zerg is getting his tech, but before he is able to get any of the tech units out such as mutas or infestors. He then transitions into normal marine, tank, and medivac, taking his third later than usual around the 11 to 12 min mark
Depending on whether or not the Zerg takes gas or not, he would take a extremely fast third if the zerg does not take gas otherwise he would continue on with his regular 2 base aggression
It is safe against zerg all ins, yet you can also punish zergs that go for fast 3 base economy.
Unfortunately this kind of timing “punishes” only bad scouting and/or risky play. 6 Queens builds can hold any 2-bases timing and thus remain at a significant advantage (which should translate to a win unless Zerg feels sorry for you and gives you 10 Infestors or something) if Zerg sacrifices an Overlord and react appropriately. I could go so far as to say that with the current state of TvZ, those builds are basically disguised all-ins. I am exaggerating a bit there but you see the point, those builds really have to do tons of damage to justify your delayed third and upgrades; even if you wipe out the entire third you're not in a particularly commanding position.
I once ran into a Zerg who prepared a surround with Zerglings/Banelings (out of 55 Drones on 3 bases) to defend my Marine/Marauder/Hellion timing and I can tell you things were not pretty to watch.
Didn't Flash do an engineering bay block against Zenio in PL? He also said it wasn't based around any special preparation, so what is your opinion on what he did?
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future. I'm only plat, so I do not have sufficient knowledge to agree or disagree with that statement. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I also wouldn't mind to learn a mech build. It would be peachy it someone had a link to a vod/thread! gg
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future. I'm only plat, so I do not have sufficient knowledge to agree or disagree with that statement. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I also wouldn't mind to learn a mech build. It would be peachy it someone had a link to a vod/thread! gg
Must've been Artosis...
The reasoning behind mech > bio is the mech army composition which is unbeatable in straight up fights. People say mech is the future because mech has zero room for errors and thus you have to play it perfectly which no one has yet accomplished hundred percent.
The benefit of bio is that it allows more errors since no one is nowhere perfect in this game yet. It allows mobility and rewards great multitasking, opposed to mech which is mostly sitting and waiting to max out.
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future. I'm only plat, so I do not have sufficient knowledge to agree or disagree with that statement. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I also wouldn't mind to learn a mech build. It would be peachy it someone had a link to a vod/thread! gg
Must've been Artosis...
The reasoning behind mech > bio is the mech army composition which is unbeatable in straight up fights. People say mech is the future because mech has zero room for errors and thus you have to play it perfectly which no one has yet accomplished hundred percent.
The benefit of bio is that it allows more errors since no one is nowhere perfect in this game yet. It allows mobility and rewards great multitasking, opposed to mech which is mostly sitting and waiting to max out.
I think what people say (especially Artosis on non-P play) should be taken with a pinch of salt. Hellion / banshee harass rewards multi-tasking very nicely. Serious errors with bio (e.g. mis-judging tank count, not paying quite enough attention) are just as deadly. Sure, you may not die for another 5 or 10 minutes - but that doesn't mean you haven't lost if something goes far enough awry.
On December 13 2012 02:41 kollin wrote: Didn't Flash do an engineering bay block against Zenio in PL? He also said it wasn't based around any special preparation, so what is your opinion on what he did?
No idea, I did not see the game. Maybe he improvised, maybe he wanted to throw his opponent out of his autopilot. Thirds on this map seems to be far away, so at least Zerg would have troubles connecting bases with creep and defending if he takes his third right away instead of his natural.
Thing is, you're delaying yourself for approximatively 20 seconds—not the Barracks but the expand if you 1 rax FE. Seeing how Zergs can deal no particular damage with 10 pool (other than forcing an early second Depot and CC inbase which is hardly a big deal economy-wise) yet still have an even game, I don't see why they couldn't do that (or better actually) with a 15 pool. Not to mention the possibilties to come across a scouting Drone (thus giving away your intention since early Terran scouts are very rare) or your opponent opening 10 pool and laughing at you.
On December 14 2012 17:53 tino wrote: Sup,
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future.
i saw Liquid.Sea do reactor helion marine banshee allin once he had 2banshees with nonstop helion production in tvp, it was game agains Genius, is it viable or genius just f-ed up?
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future. I'm only plat, so I do not have sufficient knowledge to agree or disagree with that statement. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I also wouldn't mind to learn a mech build. It would be peachy it someone had a link to a vod/thread! gg
Must've been Artosis...
The reasoning behind mech > bio is the mech army composition which is unbeatable in straight up fights. People say mech is the future because mech has zero room for errors and thus you have to play it perfectly which no one has yet accomplished hundred percent.
The benefit of bio is that it allows more errors since no one is nowhere perfect in this game yet. It allows mobility and rewards great multitasking, opposed to mech which is mostly sitting and waiting to max out.
I think what people say (especially Artosis on non-P play) should be taken with a pinch of salt. Hellion / banshee harass rewards multi-tasking very nicely. Serious errors with bio (e.g. mis-judging tank count, not paying quite enough attention) are just as deadly. Sure, you may not die for another 5 or 10 minutes - but that doesn't mean you haven't lost if something goes far enough awry.
Yeah I'm on the same page with you, just explaining the reasoning behind it. I'm not hundred percent sure but aren't code S Terrans meching a lot more nowadays than in the past? Especially with TvZ.
In TvP, does ebay always mean gasless expand? What are the sacrifices Terran makes to ebay block?
As a Protoss player that doesn't skip the zealot, I always love seeing the ebay block because it's free minerals for me, but I'm not sure exactly what it means for the Terran's build.
I opened 1rax FE into hellion banshee. I denied his overlord scout so I faked a 2rax pressure, but he didnt bite. Later on I see my oppurtunity to just go in with my hellions and kill drones, I kill 20 drones. My 2 banshees were unable to do any damage however. So now I'm aiming to harass him with drops, while hitting a ~15min 2/2 +1 vehicle weapons timing. The drops dont shit this game .. he always has lings perfectly split.I always had more army supply but he held any push with ease with his infestors. I really don't know how to win TvZ these days.
When I saw his ultras I should've made more marauders, but i already had 8 rax and no building space. I tried to add 3 more rax in front of my third but he killed them. So i was left with 2 techlabs. I also expected him to just make a few ultras and then go broods. My 2nd factory and 5-8th rax were also a bit late.
*What does a 2base opening mean for my build? Obviously mutas are a possibility, but how can I take advantage of a 2base infestor build? o I need Thors against ultras? *How could I have won there? Except making more marauders
Would really appreciate some help from a skilled terran!
On December 15 2012 03:30 kcdc wrote: In TvP, does ebay always mean gasless expand?
Yes, other builds don't have spare minerals and/or there would be no point in the EB block.
On December 15 2012 03:30 kcdc wrote: What are the sacrifices Terran makes to ebay block?
Slightly delayed Barracks/gas(es)/Bunker, wounded or dead SCV limiting rescouting/forcing another scouting SCV to check if Protoss did expand (else you risk losing to some delayed 4g or even 4g prism).
This thread does not review replays, so check the Terran Help Me Thread for my answer there. Now for your non-specific questions:
On December 15 2012 03:52 Crypdos wrote: *What does a 2base opening mean for my build? Obviously mutas are a possibility, but how can I take advantage of a 2base infestor build?
Nothing particular I'm afraid. Just be happy he will get his 3-bases economy later and his creep spread will be weaker if he uses only 1 or 2 extra Queens and use them as part of his wall.
2-bases Infestors means you must have detection at the entrance of your base so no burrowed Infestors can enter your bases unseen. It also means he can try some kind of IT bust shortly after you land your third while your Tank count is low.
On December 15 2012 03:52 Crypdos wrote: Do I need Thors against ultras?
Not with biomech. Even though they're decent against Ultralisks, they don't have armor upgrades with biomech builds so they're very vulnerable to +3 attack Cracklings.
Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote: Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop.
Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes.
Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions.
Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote: Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop.
Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes.
Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions.
Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame.
Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote: Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop.
Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes.
Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions.
Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame.
Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
It's harder to do damage with hellions than you think once warpgate is complete and observers are out, especially when you don't have +1 attack and blue flame to two shot probes. You win or lose tvp against good players by 1a battles, not harass, and without huge probe damage, something very difficult with sentries and stalkers warping in the mineral line, your main army will be severely lacking without sufficient compensation. Gumiho played against Creator in cloud kingdom with very heavy midgame hellion harass and did very well but it barely mattered.
I don't think that 12/14 eco builds are particularly viable. MKP used to do this for a time pre-queen patch but Zerg will know its not 11/11 by the marine timing and scv count (unless you load scvs in your cc, which might work). I'd say if you want to fake a bunker rush you hide your rax at your 3rd or something and just do rax cc cc.
What can work is what bogus did against soulkey on entombed in gsl ro8, a 12/12 with only 2 scvs pulled. Soulkey underestimated it and didn't pull a ton of drones, so bogus was able to inflict huge casualties and basically auto win from damage dealt.
On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote: Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop.
Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes.
Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions.
Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame.
Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
It's harder to do damage with hellions than you think once warpgate is complete and observers are out, especially when you don't have +1 attack and blue flame to two shot probes. You win or lose tvp against good players by 1a battles, not harass, and without huge probe damage, something very difficult with sentries and stalkers warping in the mineral line, your main army will be severely lacking without sufficient compensation. Gumiho played against Creator in cloud kingdom with very heavy midgame hellion harass and did very well but it barely mattered.
I don't think that 12/14 eco builds are particularly viable. MKP used to do this for a time pre-queen patch but Zerg will know its not 11/11 by the marine timing and scv count (unless you load scvs in your cc, which might work). I'd say if you want to fake a bunker rush you hide your rax at your 3rd or something and just do rax cc cc.
What can work is what bogus did against soulkey on entombed in gsl ro8, a 12/12 with only 2 scvs pulled. Soulkey underestimated it and didn't pull a ton of drones, so bogus was able to inflict huge casualties and basically auto win from damage dealt.
would this hiden rax fake 2rax is valible in ladder?
Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Late game TvP after a major engagment, in which you come ahead but not enough to push their bases, because of warp in, what do you do? I find myself, when lucky enough, winning late game engagements but then trying to push and getting overrun with warp ins coming it. Is it that i'm not winning the fights by a large enough margin? if so how i can i assure that i do that?
On December 24 2012 06:57 saaaa wrote: Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Any advices how i should handle this?
A post a while ago did a critical analysis of how upgrades affect units in each matchup
On December 23 2012 05:33 Mia wrote: Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
12/14 light pressure was severely weakened by the Queen patch. Before, it was guaranteed you could force a Spine and additional Zerglings if you retained your initial Marines and rallied reinforcements in front of his natural; nowadays, Queens can defend this kind of delayed Marine pressure on their own. Realistically on current maps 12/14 can't complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery unless Zerg does not react, so you will end up with a later expand while not really hindering Zerg's development (Zerg is able to defend your pressure while still mining gas and going 2 Queens). You can always hope he overreacts with Zerglings but even then you won't achieve much. If you want to use 2 rax pressure I suggest using 11/11 with 3 SCVs; you sacrifice more economy but since the pressure is much stronger, Zerg is forced to respect your Bunker rush attempt and proceed cautiously, forgoing gas (or sacrificing his natural) and often delaying the second Queen (if he goes 2 Queens you should be able to complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery) on top of forcing Spine(s) and Zerglings.
On December 24 2012 06:57 saaaa wrote: Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Any advices how i should handle this?
In TvZ mech forgoing armor upgrades make your units way more vulnerable to low-damage fast-attacking units such as Broodlings, Zerglings and Infested Terrans; for instance assuming equal upgrades it takes 100 Zerglings hits to kill a Thor while it takes 57 if Thor has no armor upgrades against a Zerglings with +3 attack. 3-3 Thors are semi-decent against low Broodlords counts but you can easily imagine the extra damage Broodlings would inflict upon Thors if they have no armor upgrades.
In TvT, I would say it depends on your build order, your plan and the situation. I think single Armory is better suited for midgame pushes because you will use the 3 extra Tanks to reach the critical mass earlier while double Armory is better on the long-term as your mech units won't lose their sturdiness against Marines and, to a lesser extent, Marauders; should an air transition occur, you will also have your double Armory at hand.
About the situation: dual Armory is delicate to get if you're not in a good spot because you might lack units and thus risk being dismantled by adverse pressure.
In mech vs mech I never get armor upgrades since 0-2 sieged Tanks destroy other Tanks in 3 shots anyway. There are modifying numbers between other units or unsieged Tanks and so on, but such mirrors are won through better moves/positioning and/or sheer numbers rather than upgrades. In that case you add the second Armory when starting your air transition.
On December 24 2012 13:43 ff7legend wrote: Late game TvP after a major engagment, in which you come ahead but not enough to push their bases, because of warp in, what do you do?
Retreat. Unfortunately most of the time when you narrowly win a fight in TvP lategame all you have gained is the right to have another fight later, hopefully winning this one convincingly enough so you can at least destroy an expand before being forced to run away from Zealots' wrath. For sure, overextending against Zealots warp-ins and leftover defensive Templars is the worst thing to do; the exhaustion of your army by dint of repetitive Stims (which means Medivacs will eventually run out of energy) means you will lose troops for nothing, throwing away the edge you might have acquired. Depending on his expands' location you might be able to destroy a remote Nexus but do not sacrifice whatever is left from your army in order to do that. According to the situation you can also use this true-false victory to secure an expand after you retreated. TvP lategame is a war of attrition usually won after several major engagements when Protoss is forced to file for bankruptcy.
In mech vs mech I never get armor upgrades since 0-2 sieged Tanks destroy other Tanks in 3 shots anyway. There are modifying numbers between other units or unsieged Tanks and so on, but such mirrors are won through better moves/positioning and/or sheer numbers rather than upgrades. In that case you add the second Armory when starting your air transition.
Regarding this, in TvT I had a friend who when he went mech, regardless of whether or not he was against mech or bio would go double armory. But instead of getting double mech upgrades, he would get vehicle attack on one armory and then air plating on the other, to prepare for an eventual air transition. Is this an advisable thing to do if you are aiming for that lategame air army?
I'm starting to have trouble vs mech (TVT) on smaller maps such as ohana. Do you have any replays/VODs you can link that illustrate how to handle playing bio or marine/rauder/tank versus mech on smaller maps? Or any suggestions you may have would be great too!
Hi guys, im struggling with Protoss all-ins. I scout the lack of an expansion and find three gates in their base. However the Robo/Dark Shrine are commonly proxied. Then i am left in the dark with what is coming (Immortal, Warp Prism, Blink, Dark Templar). I have no clue how to find their proxies (could be anyhwere + i only have marines due to 1rax expand so i cant move out against stalkers) and even then a robo could still mean 3 different all-ins. How do i know which all-in is coming? Thank you for your help.
But recently I have been looking a little into the TvZ early game and one of the things I've noticed since the Queen buff is how much zergs are delaying ling speed these days.
So to combat this I've looked quickly into speed upgraded reapers as a means of early harass. Without speed lings are 0.01 slower than speed upgraded reapers on creep. In packs of 4-6 they can ravage mineral lines and trade fairly well with queens if micro'd (6+).
Another advantage that reapers bring is the ability to jump ledges, these days zergs pre-emptively wall off with buildings, spines and queens at their natural ramp, reapers would be able to negate this I think before you could get medivacs.
I haven't tried to put this theory to test in any games yet because I wanted to run it by you lot to see if it's worthwhile. The biggest problems I think the build would have is that it would be easy to scout with overlords, hard to hold any sort of early pressure from Z, a big investment early on if you don't get a good amount of damage done in return and probably isn't that much quicker than getting medivacs, though I've not really tested it and it's just something that popped into my mind over Christmas (how exciting)
Hey, im a Masters Zerg that is smurfing as Terran. I managed to hit diamond as terran recently but struggled against zerg ever since (although i find it the most fun).
Today i got rolled as Zerg against a pure bio Terran (low master), and i didn't feel i played that bad. So my question is: is pure bio a good way too learn the macro mechanics of Terran (because of mobility, and less worrying about tank positioning) in ZvT? Or do you guy's consider it too volatile?
A recent trend I observed in T v P (low - mid masters level) is that protosses going for templar tech (HT or archons) are playing extremely aggressively in the midgame (on daybreak especially). In 2-3 games so far I have had zealot HT/archon armies coming over to my side of the map around 11-13min, while I'm trying to get my 3rd (they get their 3rd too). This seems to be a potent timing as my medivac count is low, my ghost academy has yet to start, and my 4th and 5th raxes have just started to kick in. I have tried two approaches so far, and both were unsuccessful: 1) Bunker up(3-4) and fight : few or no ghosts have made me vulnerable to aoe units, and my opponent muscles through the bunker wall with mostly zealots 2) Try to snipe his 3rd, and possible base trade : You still have to deal with templar tech without ghost support, unless you do snipe all buildings (which is rare)
I am mostly used to protosses being conservative in the mid game and I have no experience in dealing with such aggressive posturing in the midgame. Any thoughts? Thanks!
when I open 11 gas into hellion expand, into banshee, and with my first 4-6 hellions I roast some drones and being pushed back by roaches. Then I come in with banshees and he is taken a third the question is, what is better, deny the third or try to do damage in main/neutral with banshees? I feel like killing of the 3rd base and getting my own 3rd is better then killing drones in main. what are your thought about applying this pressure early in the game?
I've been using Eco-Banshee in TvT recently [11 Gas 13 Rax into Banshee (mostly with cloak) expand] I've been wondering though how many marines I have to get in case he is throwing some kind of 1 base agression like helion drop on me? At the moment i also usually slam down a reactor on my baracks that I can transfer to my factory for quick helions if needed. Banshee obviously provides super good scouting, so am concerned if there are any things that hit before ~6:45 or that this scout is too late for.
Really really unsure how many corners I can cut. Before getting up my 2nd CC, any experience / advice?
On December 28 2012 17:53 ThaSlayer wrote: A recent trend I observed in T v P (low - mid masters level) is that protosses going for templar tech (HT or archons) are playing extremely aggressively in the midgame (on daybreak especially). In 2-3 games so far I have had zealot HT/archon armies coming over to my side of the map around 11-13min, while I'm trying to get my 3rd (they get their 3rd too). This seems to be a potent timing as my medivac count is low, my ghost academy has yet to start, and my 4th and 5th raxes have just started to kick in. I have tried two approaches so far, and both were unsuccessful: 1) Bunker up(3-4) and fight : few or no ghosts have made me vulnerable to aoe units, and my opponent muscles through the bunker wall with mostly zealots 2) Try to snipe his 3rd, and possible base trade : You still have to deal with templar tech without ghost support, unless you do snipe all buildings (which is rare)
I am mostly used to protosses being conservative in the mid game and I have no experience in dealing with such aggressive posturing in the midgame. Any thoughts? Thanks!
This actually cannot work, so it's something you can relax against once you get to figure it out. Colossus have some possibility of midgame attacks (rarely) but templar armies do not. There are two reasons for this. First is that anytime the Protoss does midgame aggression before he approaches high gateway count + high supplies + defending templars, you can auto win with a counter drop into base race. You depot/bunker spam your natural while your drop depowers all his production buildings.
Second reason is that if you keep your army together, don't lose it frivolously, he can't actually push across the map. Templar cannot storm kiting bio units effectively. So in effect he has to purchase territory across the map in blood (zealots) and storms; however, this is very cost inefficient because you just keep kiting away and forcing fights in bad chokes while dodging any storm because templars are slow.
If he does some kind of 2 base templar/archon/zealot allin, like elfi vs thorzain on daybreak from that euro tourney finals, you auto win with bunkers and a full supply depot wall in your natural, especially if you pair it with a counter drop.
Some reference games: Kas/Parting Daybreak, RSL2 (replay available). MKP/Parting Daybreak, KSL Finals (vod, from owned tv i think), Bomber/Rain, Ohana (MLG Dallas).
On December 28 2012 21:24 Pyrox wrote: Quick question about applying pressure, in TvZ
when I open 11 gas into hellion expand, into banshee, and with my first 4-6 hellions I roast some drones and being pushed back by roaches. Then I come in with banshees and he is taken a third the question is, what is better, deny the third or try to do damage in main/neutral with banshees? I feel like killing of the 3rd base and getting my own 3rd is better then killing drones in main. what are your thought about applying this pressure early in the game?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
Basically your build doesn't work the higher you go up. My thoughts about applying pressure is that you can do damage with rax cc/14cc into hellion/banshee -> 3rd cc versus weaker players but if they are as good as you, you won't have much opportunity. Zerg is essentially immune to damage early game if they play right. Studying games like Mvp vs Slivko on Ohana from IEM are good to help you with the harass.
On December 28 2012 23:19 FancYCaT wrote: Hey there,
I've been using Eco-Banshee in TvT recently [11 Gas 13 Rax into Banshee (mostly with cloak) expand] I've been wondering though how many marines I have to get in case he is throwing some kind of 1 base agression like helion drop on me? At the moment i also usually slam down a reactor on my baracks that I can transfer to my factory for quick helions if needed. Banshee obviously provides super good scouting, so am concerned if there are any things that hit before ~6:45 or that this scout is too late for.
Really really unsure how many corners I can cut. Before getting up my 2nd CC, any experience / advice?
On a 2 player map you always 12 scout to make sure he's going rax cc or some gas build.
gas first cloak banshee is rarely seen because it's not an eco build: you have to do a lot of damage. I never do these builds so I'm sorry I can't give you a very thorough answer, but because your banshee is later than normal you should be playing safe against any gas opening. Against gas first elevator you will have to play very cautiously.
I have a hard time against different protoss all ins as a terran player doing 1rax fe/14cc. First of all, when I scout their base I see 2 gases. What this usually indicates is that the protoss will do some 1 base shenanigans, however I can't overreact since they could very well expand. Scouting the protoss base is very hard after the initial scv because of stalker(s) defending/hunting for scvs. Scanning is something you want to avoid doing but kind of have to, since defending the different all ins take different measures. If you are lucky scanning might give you a tell of what he is doing but it's not a must since protosses like to proxy stargates/robotics facilities and hide their twilight council. So my question is: how do you react in a proper way? What measures should be taken?
I have a hard time against different protoss all ins as a terran player doing 1rax fe/14cc. First of all, when I scout their base I see 2 gases. What this usually indicates is that the protoss will do some 1 base shenanigans, however I can't overreact since they could very well expand. Scouting the protoss base is very hard after the initial scv because of stalker(s) defending/hunting for scvs. Scanning is something you want to avoid doing but kind of have to, since defending the different all ins take different measures. If you are lucky scanning might give you a tell of what he is doing but it's not a must since protosses like to proxy stargates/robotics facilities and hide their twilight council. So my question is: how do you react in a proper way? What measures should be taken?
Thanks!
Hi, high master terran here. About scouting protoss allins: When you see 2 gas, you also need to take note about the pylon positioning and look for the 3rd pylon. Very distant pylons can mean he wants to spread out/hide his tech, and a missing 3rd pylon is obviously a big warning sign. Take your scv out of his base before 4:10 which is when a chronod stalker comes out and look around a bit for a 3rd pylon. At the same time send an scv/your marines to look for the normal spots of proxy around your base (at your 3rd or other spots depending on maps). Come back with your scv around 5:30-6, if he hasn't expanded you can scan at around 6:30 if you think his tech is inbase and probably find out what he's doing. If he has expanded be mindful of the option of DT expand. Also - early 2 gas tech builds often skip the first zealot, and/or the safety sentry after the stalker. This allows you to be a bit more aggressive with your early 5 marines. This is something that takes a bit of practice, but you can get some great scouting by grabbing his xelnaga and pushing his stalker back at best, or at worst just getting your xelnaga and placing a marine at ur 3rd scouting for a proxy pylon. Another good tell is whether or not and to what extend he's poking with his stalker. Bottom line is, if you're laddering you want to be extremely active scouting in the early game never losing your first scouting scv and sending another one if you suspect proxy as well as proper marine positioning/map control.
*Another thing to note is when/if he leaves your base with his own scouting probe and where he goes with it. If you send your first marine to the xelnaga and you notice the probe isn't there and it hasn't returned to his base it may very well be out on the map somewhere - find it!
Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
On December 30 2012 01:55 Lionbacker wrote: Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
On December 26 2012 00:50 kollin wrote: Regarding this, in TvT I had a friend who when he went mech, regardless of whether or not he was against mech or bio would go double armory. But instead of getting double mech upgrades, he would get vehicle attack on one armory and then air plating on the other, to prepare for an eventual air transition. Is this an advisable thing to do if you are aiming for that lategame air army?
Personally I would not do this because only a small part of TvTs reach the air vs air stage, so the long-term investment would be negated in the vast majority of the games.
On December 28 2012 04:39 Marathi wrote: I'm not sure if this strategy has been discussed.
But recently I have been looking a little into the TvZ early game and one of the things I've noticed since the Queen buff is how much zergs are delaying ling speed these days.
So to combat this I've looked quickly into speed upgraded reapers as a means of early harass. Without speed lings are 0.01 slower than speed upgraded reapers on creep. In packs of 4-6 they can ravage mineral lines and trade fairly well with queens if micro'd (6+).
Another advantage that reapers bring is the ability to jump ledges, these days zergs pre-emptively wall off with buildings, spines and queens at their natural ramp, reapers would be able to negate this I think before you could get medivacs.
I haven't tried to put this theory to test in any games yet because I wanted to run it by you lot to see if it's worthwhile.
No, Reapers are way too slow to produce, too fragile, too expensive and you would be left with a horrible infrastructure (many Barracks with Tech Labs). You could score numerous Drone kills and still end up massively behind simply because of this. Reapers do not trade well at all with Queens considering the resources/production inequality, and it takes 30 hits to kill a Queen with each Transfusion negating roughly 20 hits. Zergs can have 4/6 Queens before you reach a significant Reaper count, not to mention the endless other issues against gas builds.
On December 28 2012 05:46 massivez wrote: Hey, im a Masters Zerg that is smurfing as Terran. I managed to hit diamond as terran recently but struggled against zerg ever since (although i find it the most fun).
Today i got rolled as Zerg against a pure bio Terran (low master), and i didn't feel i played that bad. So my question is: is pure bio a good way too learn the macro mechanics of Terran (because of mobility, and less worrying about tank positioning) in ZvT? Or do you guy's consider it too volatile?
Even if Tanks-free compositions exist in TvZ, Tanks remain a core unit in TvT/Z so I would strongly advise to use them. You can still practice pure bio in TvP.
On December 29 2012 19:33 monkybone wrote: What do you think of Polt's TvZ build as outlined in day9's daily recently?
It's basically a standard 1 rax CC into reactor hellion, with two quick additional raxes after both gases are taken. Stim is researched asap. The addons are two tech labs, and one reactor. Polt reactors out hellions constantly, and together with marine and double marauder production he goes for a stim+CS timing push. He reinforces constantly with hellions and marine marauder to apply heavy pressure to the Zerg throughout the game.
I think TvZ comes down to denying overlord scouting of your main. Zerg can't tell if it's a 1 rax double CC, a 1/1/1, BFH or bio opening. If he does, it becomes too easy to shut down anything.
Personally I stick to my last answer:
On December 13 2012 02:39 TheDwf wrote: Unfortunately this kind of timing “punishes” only bad scouting and/or risky play. 6 Queens builds can hold any 2-bases timing and thus remain at a significant advantage (which should translate to a win unless Zerg feels sorry for you and gives you 10 Infestors or something) if Zerg sacrifices an Overlord and react appropriately. I could go so far as to say that with the current state of TvZ, those builds are basically disguised all-ins. I am exaggerating a bit there but you see the point, those builds really have to do tons of damage to justify your delayed third and upgrades; even if you wipe out the entire third you're not in a particularly commanding position.
I once ran into a Zerg who prepared a surround with Zerglings/Banelings (out of 55 Drones on 3 bases) to defend my Marine/Marauder/Hellion timing and I can tell you things were not pretty to watch.
Entirely denying an Overlord sacrifice with only 2 Marines for a while is nearly impossible on most maps, not to mention the problem of the ridiculous Overlord spots overhanging your natural (e. g. CK, Abyssal City, Whirlwind) or the way out (Daybreak).
On December 13 2012 02:39 TheDwf wrote: Unfortunately this kind of timing “punishes” only bad scouting and/or risky play. 6 Queens builds can hold any 2-bases timing and thus remain at a significant advantage (which should translate to a win unless Zerg feels sorry for you and gives you 10 Infestors or something) if Zerg sacrifices an Overlord and react appropriately. I could go so far as to say that with the current state of TvZ, those builds are basically disguised all-ins. I am exaggerating a bit there but you see the point, those builds really have to do tons of damage to justify your delayed third and upgrades; even if you wipe out the entire third you're not in a particularly commanding position.
I once ran into a Zerg who prepared a surround with Zerglings/Banelings (out of 55 Drones on 3 bases) to defend my Marine/Marauder/Hellion timing and I can tell you things were not pretty to watch.
Entirely denying an Overlord sacrifice with only 2 Marines for a while is nearly impossible on most maps, not to mention the problem of the ridiculous Overlord spots overhanging your natural (e. g. CK, Abyssal City, Whirlwind) or the way out (Daybreak).
But what about using more than 2 marines?
Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it. Day9 did make a daily on it, so it wouldn't be too hard, and to be fair, polt is using it for a reason. In the example game revival did make 6 queens.
True, it might not be the best choice on maps where the move out is scouted (daybreak, on CK you can sneak by), or on maps where an overlord is going to scout your shit no matter what (again CK is a good map for denying scout).
Not only Polt, the build Innovation(Bogus) has been using in Tvz for a while has been depot before 2 gas to get 4 marines. This gives you flexibility in a number of area including denying overlords/map control/poking the zerg early and sniping overlords. If you have just 2 marines the zerg can abuse this abit by poking his zerglings at your front while sending an overlord in knowing you have just 2 of them. Also 4 marines are better at holding off some meta-gamey aggressions. Gogo bogus gogo 4 marines .
On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote: But what about using more than 2 marines?
The CC first variant cannot get more than 2 Marines until ~6'30 at best (unless you don't immediately swap Barracks with Factory but that delays everything, not to mention safety issues against some gas openings). The 1 rax FE variants can get either 3 or 4 Marines depending on whether you get dual gas before or after second gas, but even if you manage to deny the Overlord sacrifice Zerg can still deduce you're going for a timing by noticing lack of gases at the natural (something Overlords can see on many maps) and/or lack of third (Overlord sacrifices usually see the third CC because of how big the building is); besides, Zerglings can sneak on the map and scout the entrance of your natural. Concealing your plan from a Zerg who really tries to scout is extremely difficult.
On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote: Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it.
I do speak from my own experience, I used this build dozens of times.
I've been wondering if there are any good gas builds for TvP aiming for early harass. I know the 1/1/1 hellion drop with proxy starport but anything else? I'm just sick of opening 1rax fe every game and it would be nice to keep the protoss guessing for even once.
I've also forgotten much about the 2base archon chargelot all in (i think it was) that people were using in the GSL. Is it a viable, strong all in and what are the steps to holding it off?
On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote: Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it.
I do speak from my own experience, I used this build dozens of times.
It blows my mind that these 2 base timings do not work vs a good zerg, and it makes me sad. I go 3 CC double ebay every game, and you know what? My zerg practice partners start tot abuse it. They know I can't attack before 13:00, so they drone drone and tech so greedy. Then they just destroy my 2-2 timing and expand like a beast.
I have lately some trouble about holding my bases with mech .. even with turret rings etc
What is the timing to get my 4th+5th and additional bases? Should i get them only with a max army because when i get them before i feel i'am spread to thin do defend everything properly.
Hey there Ver / Dwf. I need some help with my late game mech TvZ. I do the regular hellion banshee with cloak or eco hellion banshee with fast 3rd into the eventual 2-2 push. How it goes is I roast enough drones with run by's or defend the harass of their own well enough to kill them right there with the push, when it doesn't work I go up to 3-4 starports to get vikings out if I know broods are coming. I normally end up killing their first broodlord army but then then steam rolled by the ultra ling switch. Should I be making more ravens? I only get 2-3 for some PDD's because I just dont find HSM all that effective and it just feels gimmicky because it relies on the zerg not splitting their corruptors. TL:DR How to deal with zergs late game tech switches with mech, or are you just screwed if your 2-2 timing doesn't work Edit - High masters PS: Beat my first GM today!
Ver & Dwf, I just watched Goswser crush MVP with a 10:00-11:00 minute speed roach/queen drop. Rewind 1 week ago when Stephano forced MVP to tap out after a 10:00-11:00 minute roach/hydra bust. Zergs are rewriting the script of standard TvZ. What adjustments should terrans make to survive these deadly timing attacks?
I'm opening hellion/banshee --> hellions scout no hatch at third --> hellions find 2 evo chambers and 4 queens. It could either be really friggin safe, or it could be some kind of +1 roach/hydra, +1 speed/roach, or +1 roach/ling/muta timing. It now seems like any kind of 8 hellion --> banshee --> 3CC --> double armory or engibay --> delayed production type of build is risky. Queens are being used to tech hard on 2 bases. Minimal resources are put into defense. Z will have faster +1 upgrades than the hellion/banshee player.
By the time you reach the wall of 4 queens + evo chambers and find no hatch at third, your 3rd & 4th hellions will be out, starport just finished. What adjustments should the terran make from here?
What should I do with my factory? Stop at 4 hellions? How quickly should I rush for tanks?
What should I do with my early starport? I could go for a banshee, or I could start a raven/vikings, or a medivac to drop those 4 hellions. I feel like banshees are 100% completely useless any combination of overseer + queens/hydra/muta. PDD is good against all of these things.
Would you suggest I go for faster additional raxx/facts by delaying my 3rd CC? and how about cutting worker production at approx 44 SCVs?
I will always be behind on upgrades when opening hellion/banshee vs. Z. I think a more conservative option would be rushing only for +1 attack, instead of double ups. So, at the moment my response to double evo/4 queen/no third is:
Cut hellions at 4 Cut the banshee either for a) 1 medivac (if spawn locations/map allow for a sneaky drop), or b) raven into reactor vikings or reactor medivacs, depending on what I see from Z. Cut third command center for now --> throw down raxx/fact #2 and #3 immediately. A single armory or engineering bay for +1 attack. Gas #3, but cut gas #4 for now. Cut SCVs at approx 44 - only resume worker production when I confirm Z has started a hatch at his third. Rush out stimpacks and tanks. An additional bunker at my natural ramp. Delayed 3rd CC, just whenever I can afford it really. After I move my 3rd CC to natural third, immediately throw down sensor tower.
Also, how can I scout this shit as early as possible? and most importantly, what is my long term course of action after I hold this attack? It seems like a pretty solid way to tech to hive, take a 3rd/4th, and spread creep undisturbed...
I know this is a big question, sorry, but it's really fucking bothering me. Thank you
On January 09 2013 09:24 LeftY_ wrote: Hey there Ver / Dwf. I need some help with my late game mech TvZ. I do the regular hellion banshee with cloak or eco hellion banshee with fast 3rd into the eventual 2-2 push. How it goes is I roast enough drones with run by's or defend the harass of their own well enough to kill them right there with the push, when it doesn't work I go up to 3-4 starports to get vikings out if I know broods are coming. I normally end up killing their first broodlord army but then then steam rolled by the ultra ling switch. Should I be making more ravens? I only get 2-3 for some PDD's because I just dont find HSM all that effective and it just feels gimmicky because it relies on the zerg not splitting their corruptors. TL:DR How to deal with zergs late game tech switches with mech, or are you just screwed if your 2-2 timing doesn't work Edit - High masters PS: Beat my first GM today!
Ver's answer (there was a discussion about the Curious vs Ryung game in which Curious remaxed on 18 Ultralisks after a major engagement):
On November 13 2012 05:04 Ver wrote: Win the game before that point. I don't mean cripple him either, I mean win. (…)
In this case Ryung's build was slightly suboptimal and he lost too many hellions roaming around so his 1430-15 min timing that is supposed to kill came maybe 45s later which means Curious has an easy time making broodlords. Ordinarily you want to force them to max on roach/ling/infestor at 14 mins, retreat to build up to 180-190 with more tanks, then push out again and kill their army and win the game. Curious actually made a lot of bad errors and gave Ryung a possibility to win. If Ryung had taken all the bottom left bases and made 8~ orbitals during his siege up left and started investing into BC's, he would've had an easier time holding and rebuilding. You never want to make planetary walls and I find defensive planetaries to be terrible tbh except on Metro but raxes and orbitals around a planetary can help out a lot vs ultras. Taeja vs Idra on Atlantis spaceship is a good example of this where Idra makes some errors engaging without a proper force and Taeja's repoduction is good enough that he can buyback his army faster with a dozen mules.
Mine will be a bit less pessimistic but essentially, yes, you really have to prevent Zerg from comfortably reaching the point in which he sits on 5-6 bases with 90+ Drones, stockpiling thousands of resources and dozens of larvae (thus allowing tech switches at will) with several Spines at each expand. In lategame you should constantly use BFH raids to wipe out Drones again and again and again so he never manages to stabilize on the mentioned scenario above; if he still succeeds you should be working towards BCs by this time.
Ravens are mediocre but needed as Missiles add good firepower against the Corruptor wall, and even more importantly this “extra damage” is instant and occurs at the very beginning of the fight (so things snowball: some Corruptors fall faster = less Corruptors attacking = less Vikings dying = more Vikings firing = more Corruptors dying, etc.); even if Zerg splits his Corruptors he will take hundreds of damage from several Missiles. Regarding the Fungal lock issue I spread my Ravens in a huge concave; ideally you want them pre-positioned in such a way that he can't hit more than one Raven per Fungal once you charge in an arc, therefore preventing him from blocking all your Ravens since he can't hit X Fungals over 2-3 screens in a split second. Naturally this optimum is hardly reachable but you see the point; you want to avoid at all costs the awful situation in which your whole Raven fleet gets repeatedly stuck out of range by chain Fungals.
Personally as long as I have time I'm not afraid to get as many Ravens as I can, so I end up with 10-15 of them sometimes; I feel 6-8 are the minimum to get a decent damage boost.
After a successful engagement in which I did not lose all my Tanks I tend to produce 4 Thors, and BattleCruisers if I have enough economy; assuming you did not lose all your Tanks/Thors and Zerg does not have unlimited banking and larvae you can handle the hopefully “weak” (say 10 max) Ultralisk switch with Tanks/Thors supported by Hellions and landed Vikings in front (not to mention Ravens summoning mini-walls with Turrets if some of them survived). It really comes down to how much you retained from the last engagement, hence the Raven necessity hoping to get a landslide victory (with Ravens you can severely punish Zerg's positioning/micro mistakes): obviously if you lost nearly everything except some Vikings and he's able to make 15+ Ultralisks 60+ Zerglings you will get mauled.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote: Ver & Dwf, I just watched Goswser crush MVP with a 10:00-11:00 minute speed roach/queen drop. Rewind 1 week ago when Stephano forced MVP to tap out after a 10:00-11:00 minute roach/hydra bust. Zergs are rewriting the script of standard TvZ.
Zergs are metagaming Terrans knowing they can get easy wins against autopilot third + dual upgrades before extra production facilities, and that the relative opacity of 2-bases Lair builds allows them to prevail against sub-optimal reactions which are more or less forced by the fact you need to commit (at least partially) in one direction or another before you can be 100% sure about what kind of attack is coming.
By the way Stephano's Roaches/Hydralisks attack against Mvp on Ohana was way weaker than a real Speedroaches timing (compare his 11 Speedroaches and 7 Hydralisks at 11'45 with the benchmark below); Mvp lost because he went Marauders, probably expecting earlier Roaches, so he had not the second Tech Lab Factory and the extra 2-3 Tanks needed to deal with Stephano's attack. Besides, he lost carelessly 4 Hellions at Stephano's Tower: it may seem marginal yet it's a huge deal actually as a sturdier Hellion wall prevents Roaches from moving forward unchallenged to snipe Tanks.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote: What adjustments should terrans make to survive these deadly timing attacks?
Mainly less ambitious follow-ups, inverting some of the buildings in the build order to squeeze in more units instead of focusing on technology (upgrades) before extra production facilities; for instance if you mech and you go dual Armory before Factories #2 and #3 you will 100% lose or suffer game-ending damage from a dedicated 1/1 Speedroaches timing (e. g. Taeja vs Vortix on Metropolis @ 2013 IPTL Season 1, Karont3 vs TL).
Now the problem, and what makes those builds dangerous, is that there are several possibilities for 2-bases Lair tech builds, most of them requiring different, precise reactions while stemming from the same core build order (except Speedling):
2-bases Infestors;
2-bases Mutalisks;
2-bases Roaches.
2-bases Roaches can be subdivided into three different things.
2-bases frontal Speedroaches 1/1 timing (benchmark = 20-25 Speedroaches at your natural at ~10'30 with 1/1 complete);
2-bases Speedroaches drops, possibly with Queens (benchmark = 25-30 Speedroaches in your main between 10'30 and 11' (?));
2-bases Speedroaches/Queens Nydus (benchmark = 15+ Roaches and 4-6 Queens going out of the Nydus at ~9'30 (?)).
The 1/1 timing and the Queens/Nydus variants differ but they have one thing in common, they're both a frontal assault (blame yourself if you allow a Nydus to complete in your base) which means you can defend them using the terrain/range advantage; such is not the case with the drop variation which forces you to have what it takes to kill the drop in the open because it bypasses the wall/range defensive advantage (thus it's the deadliest variation).
Hydralisks come later and honestly don't add much; yes they can attack Banshees but by the time Hydralisks are at your door you should not be relying on Banshees to fend off the attack. Roaches switches after Mutalisks are old as the hills and can be dealt with going Tanks after the initial Thors (never saw them against biomech).
Since I play mostly mech I will only talk about the reactions when going Hellions/Banshees → mech. Ideally:
2-bases Infestors: little offensive potential, so you can go CC and dual Armory as detection at each entrance + sieged Tanks should be able to hold anything he tries. Banshees at your own discretion.
2-bases Mutalisks: CC, single Armory [I feel going two Armories delays too much the Thors but it's possible depending on his Spire timing], dual Thor + some Turrets, immediate switch into Tanks anticipating the Roach switch (of course additional Thors may be needed later if he resumes Mutalisk production, Vortix did that against Mvp on Daybreak @ IEM Cologne VII).
2-bases Roaches: against those you need to proceed very cautiously as the slightest misreaction can result in an immediate loss. I would go with CC, dual Factory (rushing Siege Mode and Tanks) and continuous Banshee production, entirely skipping Armories until building them is safe.
The main problem, of course, is that you may not know yet what Zerg is up to by the time you would need to head for such or such branch; for instance seeing a Roach Warren complete at 7' means nothing. So what I usually do against 2-bases Lair is that I get two Factories (while making 2 Tech Labs with my Barracks) as soon as possible, then an Armory. Cancel this Armory upon scouting Roaches, or at least do not use it until you're safe. I don't really like this kind of middle-of-the-road approach but this is the most all-around answer. Oh and I always skip Cloak now, the 200 gas investment delays too much Factories and is easily negated by Spores/Overseers.
With gasless 4 Queens → 2-bases Lair Zerg reaches 55 Drones by 7'30 - 7'45, so you should see his first units between 8' and 9' using a Hellion poke and/or flying around/over his bases with your Banshee. If you see Speedlings/Banelings or a macro Hatchery you can rule out the most brutal Roaches timings as Zergs usually invest 100% of their resources into Roach-related stuff to reach a healthy mass and don't need the extra larvae from a third Hatchery; if you see Roaches you should be very careful as there is no sure way to know yet if he's going front or drop, so keep producing Banshees (4 Banshees kill Queens or Roaches in two volleys) while getting Tanks as soon as possible.
2-bases frontal Speedroaches 1/1 timing: a wall + 2-4 Sieged Tanks carefully positioned + Banshees should do. Since you don't need all Hellions at home you might capitalize on his army being out of his base: pre-emptively hide some Hellions on the map then raid while Mordor is emptied and kill Drones.
2-bases Speedroaches/Queens Nydus: as a general tip, be active with a Hellion around your third; Zerg will generally want to Nydus there so your third is blocked for years (creep) if you defend his attack. Depending on his timing you may need to stall a bit for Siege so having a Bunker in front is useful.
2-bases Speedroaches drops, possibly with Queens: the real killer. Against this one you need 100% units (no Armory) going Hellions/Tanks/Banshees and you will have to pull 20+ SCVs so Roaches waste tons of shots on them; until Zerg is done dropping they will auto-focus SCVs since they're at melee range. If you siege some Tanks be sure to siege them outside of his immediate vision when he reaches your base (he'll likely drop as soon as possible in your main, or head for your production facilities), then retreat everything on the ground so Roaches have to move awkwardly around your buildings (you still have a tiny advantage fighting in your base against low-ranged units) while being shot by sieged Tanks, etc. Focus Queens with your Banshees so they have free reign afterwards.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote: I feel like banshees are 100% completely useless any combination of overseer + queens/hydra/muta. PDD is good against all of these things.
Regarding Queens + Overseers it depends on numbers, with uninterrupted Banshee production you can have 4 Banshees by 10'45 [I'm still talking about mech] which should be enough against 4 Queens. Besides, you're at home so you can mass-repair Banshees; against a Roaches/Queens drop SCV casualties will be high anyway so they might as well help other units survive.
Against Mutalisks or Hydralisks yes I would cut Banshees as soon as I scout his tech.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote: Would you suggest I go for faster additional raxx/facts by delaying my 3rd CC? and how about cutting worker production at approx 44 SCVs?
You can't know for sure anyway by the time you would need to do this (i. e. 7'30), and you may lose many SCVs to defend so having an extra MULE and a third CC to replenish faster your lost workers is better; of course it means you will have to delay upgrades, you can't expect to hold a massive 2-bases Roaches attack with a third and dual upgrades before rax/fact. I would not cut worker production at 44; temporarily cutting SCVs to get earlier production facilities is a good idea though.
On January 12 2013 06:48 SHODAN wrote: and most importantly, what is my long term course of action after I hold this attack? It seems like a pretty solid way to tech to hive, take a 3rd/4th, and spread creep undisturbed...
General plan does not change, pre-Hive tech timing or (near-)max supply push with the usual outcomes: if you're too behind from his attack you'll likely lose, if you're even things vary depending on what happens with your timing, if you're ahead you should be able to kill him.
Excellent, thank you for answering in that much depth Dwf. You say you're a mech man? Imagine you're playing vT on Antiga Shipyard and you spawn at either the 2 or 8 o'clock positions. If the game goes on long enough that you have to secure a fourth base, it's possible in these positions to defend both the center base & third with a single tank line (red triangles). But it is much, much more difficult to defend these locations if you spawn at 11 or 5 - you spread your tanks way too thin and give the bio/tank player so many openings (green triangles).
I have tried going for a planetary fortress at my third when I spawn 11 or 5. I have also tried setting up a very forward tank line that only defends the center base, but allows me to rush him --> siege up his production if he attacks my third (kind of how Gumiho did it vs. MMA, GSTL finals). If I anticipate this scenario, I try to have 2 or 3 cloaked banshees and a pack of hellions positioned in advance to shut down mining at his outer expansions.
If you feel like going in depth about how to play mech on 3 or more bases, please do. After the turtle to near-maxed phase is over and you have a scary tank count to push out, what is your general plan? If you're forced to take a fourth on a map like Ohana, how do you defend it without spreading yourself too thin?
What is the best way to Improve/ Learn decision making in SCII? More specifically how to react to opponents builds? When to attack/ defend/ expand etc?? Thanks again for such a helpful thread
On January 16 2013 08:52 Sp4cem4nSpiff wrote: What is the best way to Improve/ Learn decision making in SCII? More specifically how to react to opponents builds? When to attack/ defend/ expand etc?? Thanks again for such a helpful thread
Boring answer, but; play a lot. And think a lot. Realize what happened in the game, and why it happened. From that, you can usually work out what you need to do in order to change the outcome.
You get gas first reactor hellions, making one set of them and then expanding. The barracks then makes a techlab and goes for a quick stim, finishing @8.15. The factory makes reactors for new raxes so that the Terran's marine production is optimized.
I saw thestc do this to crank in some tourney but his build was interrupted by the opponents phoenix stalker all in.
I think the idea is to do some damage/gain scouting information with the hellions and do a strong marine push before colossi.
Where can I find replays of this executed? Is the strategy even viable?
Did you know that a bunker or photon cannon has a tiny longer range vs buildings than units? (About half to 1/3 of a grid square) A unit can stand withing the grid square of range. But if you build a pylon there. It overlaps the next grid quare.
I was testing it out yesterday. Trying to find out how long sight range a constructing/warping/morphing building had. Results:
CC/hatch/Nexus(Not finished constructing): 2 grid range on the 3 middle grids/sides. 1 grid range going diagonally from the corner grid.(1 lateral then 1 distal) A Town hall has 5 squares on both sides.
Do i need to a SCV scout if i do a gas first opening in TvT or can i skip it?
I think with no SCV scout my timing push like marine+hellion+medivac drop is smoothlier than with a Scout after/while buildung the rax.. Do you recommend it?
On January 29 2013 07:23 saaaa wrote: Do i need to a SCV scout if i do a gas first opening in TvT or can i skip it?
I think with no SCV scout my timing push like marine+hellion+medivac drop is smoothlier than with a Scout after/while buildung the rax.. Do you recommend it?
This is a fairly simple question.
Most pros won't SCV scout with gas first because your minerals are very tight. Plus it's actually better to hold off attacks using the additional minerals you get from leaving your SCV mining than it is to know what the attack is but be unable to stop it.
On January 29 2013 07:23 saaaa wrote: Do i need to a SCV scout if i do a gas first opening in TvT or can i skip it?
I think with no SCV scout my timing push like marine+hellion+medivac drop is smoothlier than with a Scout after/while buildung the rax.. Do you recommend it?
This is a fairly simple question.
Most pros won't SCV scout with gas first because your minerals are very tight. Plus it's actually better to hold off attacks using the additional minerals you get from leaving your SCV mining than it is to know what the attack is but be unable to stop it.
in fact i can hold everything even if i don't scv scout ? Yeah thats my problem my minerals are too tight and i can not execute "perfectly" if i do it.
Mabye the first hellion is early enough.. what do you recommend for high diamond player?