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On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
I'm like 1.35k, take what I say with a grain of salt.
Early game: Marine heavy is necessary for the chargelot style that most protosses use now, which basically negates the kiting shinanigans in favor of sitting there with your marines after some splitting and see who can outdps faster. Marauders are extremely bad against chargelots. Depending on the timings, and certainly in the current metagame, it is a coinflip to go 2techlab because of a bunch of protoss builds that basically hardcounters it. 2 reactor 1 techlab gives you an easy way to transition out even if you don't do a bunch of damage.
As for the late game: The MKP vs. Parting games come to mind where kiting is heavily used vs. a chargelot storm composition, but since then TvP has evolved to a lot of the Taeja style mass marine ghost viking brunt damage play, where the whole deal is that you have so many cloaked ghosts and vikings that not a single storm can land. Terrans are good enough to consider storms landed as a mistake than an inevitability now.
I think as terrans get better, marauders are going to be more and more sparingly made.
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Will you write another thing like "God of the Battlefield"? and articles like that?
What's your favorite build in TvT and why?
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What is your opinion on blind building a bunker at protoss nat on 16 supply with a 1rax mara FE?
How about the qxc bunker? do you have any experience with followups the zerg can do regarding it?
I've been experimenting quite a bit with both of these builds and they seem to throw the games wildly in my favor as there is very very little guessing (i know when they expanded, if they have probes out, zerg is only on 2 base, only made x queens, no creep spread etc) and I think they might be incorporated more into the metagame.
You played against my protoss friend at MLG, nice to see a thread like this ^^
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United States2186 Posts
On August 19 2012 17:10 ProfSc wrote: Firstly, thank you so much for providing such a valuable service.
As a kind of overview question, is there a database somewhere that pro players utilize that include build orders, worker benchmarks, etc.? I've come across some benchmark information, but they seem to be currently unsupported. I seem to always come across mention of such information, but upon inquiry, the information remains elusive. Basic things like trying to get to 50 workers by 10 minutes are jewels of information but remain decentralized.
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As far as strategy is concerned, I'm a low to mid-master Terran on NA, and I used to utilize Griffith's 4OC build in TvZ several seasons ago, but I would always do it blindly (like a moron). Fast forward to the GSTL finals and IPL TAC3, and it's abundantly clear—as Gumiho and Taeja demonstrated—that the fourth OC is a response to a fast zerg third (actually, my memory is faulty with respect to Gumiho's game on Atlantis Spaceship). With the understanding that a 2/2 timing is what I should be aiming for and that, at the latest, I should have my 1/1 started at 9 minutes so that 2/2 finishes by 15, I have a number of questions:
1. What do I need to safely expand to a third/fourth—do I need to go marine-tank or can I do pure bio? Are banshees effective? Is there a supply mark I should watch? 2. How aggressive can I be before 2/2 completes? Should I just turtle (it seemed to work out for Taeja against Nestea's 3-base bling bust)? Should I cut anything to try to get 2/2 faster than 15 minutes? 3. What are the most important attack times when utilizing a heavy eco opening like the 4OC or the less greedy 3OC style? Is there a zerg weakness at X time that is exploitable with heavy eco openings? 4. Do you have any general comments on 3OC or 4OC?
No database to my knowledge. Pros know a lot of the game mechanics internally by feel (intuition) and don't really worry about specific numbers much. When referencing builds to each other pros will typically go 'build x that player y used against player z on this map.' Everyone has to pay attention to the rest of the scene or fall behind. Ultimately in order to figure these things out you simply need to watch a lot of pro replays and vods.
I looked up that build and it's terrible, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays against any Zerg build that takes a fast third you need to land your third by 10 minutes at the very latest, usually earlier. Ghostking's play against Nestea in the GSL quarterfinals on Cloud kingdom is a really good example of this. What Taeja used against Losira and Nestea in IPL TAC is much better. Builds on Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis are kind of exceptions though due to the sheer rush distance. Taeja's game against Losira on Antiga is a more practical demonstration on most maps, though please keep in mind he only did that because Losira showed 3 hatch before pool with no gas, which completely rules out early timings and thus let Taeja be more greedy.
Regardless, hellion or hellion/banshee builds are almost required in TvZ for a number of reasons, the main question is when you get your cc's and upgrades. Taeja is really the only player who is successful with pure bio openings (the build he used against Annyeong on Antiga vs Prime in TAC for example). However, against a better Zerg who can spread creep faster the build wouldn't work nearly as well and is also hellishly hard to play. Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Any non fast 3 orbital build is a gimmick more or less that is probably not worth practicing. 4 orbital builds have a nice feel to them but only work if you are sure the Zerg can't do an early allin (i,e very quick 3rd).
Zergs don't really have a weakness because any weak moment they have you will still have to power through tons of creep to threaten anything. The only real time you can press quickly over creep and land a killing blow is when they are nearing the point of reaching ultras or broods, but that requires a huge amount of game sense and guess work to discern correctly. Usually the best option in TvZ is to keep pressing the 4th and force them to fight off creep and get very good trades. The more you can force them to fight off creep with lair armies the better.
As for how aggressive you can be...it's really hard to say and depends entirely on what the Zerg is doing. In general it's worth controlling your watchtower as much as you can and keeping the Zerg blind and uncertain. That really matters a lot. However if you are out on the map early (i,e with first 2 medivacs) you need to make sure you are watching your army closely and pre splitting whenever possible. i,e if you are just sitting at the watchtower and have a moment, spread your army out even if there is no immediate threat. This is the only thing that dissuades the Zerg from bum rushing you. Splitting after they've attacked is already too late.
On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote: What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
//edit one more question in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that?
If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
@TvT- I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
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In TvP, I feel like I need to be out on the map mid game, but it makes warp prisms very difficult to deal with from 10-15 minutes. Any suggestions?
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On August 20 2012 04:46 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote: What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame? In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this: After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier... drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare. Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
//edit one more question in tvt, i often face the marine hellion drop. is there a buildorder that would give a bo win vs that strategy? maybe early viking with reactored hellions or something like that? If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis. As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play. Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much. @TvT- I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
I really, really appreciate your answers, thanks. I never thought about the observers. I will try to drop and push the natural now with the rest of the army. for the tvt thing i dont really know, but i will definitly try it out. tyvm
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HiHi, i play full bio in tvz, but get caught with my pants down with infestor fungals, is there a way to have pre warning? i've tried stim marines but they don't get out far enough for me to have a reliable tell. Is it just scanning ahead all the time? until he attacks?
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United States2186 Posts
On August 19 2012 21:41 dynwar7 wrote: hi Ver thank you for this.
I will make this short.
Do you agree that more marine heavy is favored in tvp rather than the old marauder heavy? So, 1 TL 2 reactor instead of 2 TL 1 reactor? Used to be marauder heavy....but now, almost all Korean TvP I see are more marine heavy...why?
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this. Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like colo.
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On August 19 2012 14:19 Aveng3r wrote: so I have a simple question- do you think that TvZ right now is best suited for mech play or bio play? Im at the high diamond/ low master level atm. Also for mech, I dont really know if its best to open with a banshee, without a banshee, blueflame or seige first, thors before tanks, etc. I kinda just make units and eventually attack, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. I read a lot of strategy about mech, but I seem to lack a definite gameplan outside of making units, defending, and eventually attacking. Are there any words of advice you could give for a general mech gameplan? Like should I try to deny a third base with banshees? not even worry about what hes doing until I have 3 bases up and going of my own? Also sorry If this isnt quite what you are looking for in this thread, I feel like I am within the guidelines you requested but if Im not please let me know and I will redo my post, I love what you are doing with this thread and I would love to be a part of it EDIT: I saw the post above me and I like the BO you suggest, but if there is any general advice you could give on how exactly to play the midgame that the BO leads into that would be fantastic
As a diamond zerg player I could tell that the most difficulty I get is vs marine + maurader + medivac and get easies wins vs mech. Vs mech I would move my roaches then stream lings in and go in with my infestors to get some neural parasites (ofc broodlords work well but often first push comes before I have them) and crush that army. Rebuilding mech is much harder and gives a huge time of breath for zerg. Where MMM seems to never stop. I often cant get decent trades to spare some gass for hive tech. And when they get to 3/3 they hardly die vs huge investment into banelings. They just run in snipe hatch, drop, snipe tech, that mobility they got feels so insane.
I realy think terran in tvz would be most powerfull if they would turtle, get a bunch of oc and then start sacing scvs to get supply lead - then go kill zerg. And terran that has planetaries and walls everywhere feels sometimes impossible to break.
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Hi, thanks a lot for doing this. Random masters player here, having some trouble with TvP.
I'm using the build from Drewbie's guide ( http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456 ). It gets 4 rax then 2 gas at around 35 supply, and you basically make a ton of marines for a while. Is this build outdated? I feel extremely weak until I have stim, and have lost more than once against protoss players who camp with stalkers in front of my bunker(s), force repairing and lost mining time, and get way ahead while I'm completely contained.
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How is this thread different from the Terran help me thread ?
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Hi i'm a gold terran (EU) and i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable. The basics of it are: gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style.
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
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I want to switch to Terran. I plan on adopting the Bomber build for TvP and the Thorzain build for TvT.
I can't find a style to emulate for TvZ, but I want to play bio. Suggestions?
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In TvP i currently do Bomber's build and i am having problems vs fast collosus defenses. Whenever i hit the timing of +1 medivacs, i seem to get barely smashed by the protoss who later on just roll over me. Is there any tips as to when to push vs Colossus or how to play out the mid-game?
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Hello. First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. I'm currently a gold level Terran and was wondering if you can give me any tips with my build order?
So I've been using a one base timing while I expand behind the attack. I 13 and 19 gas. Factory at first 100 gas. If its Zerg I get sp right after factory , get two banshees and harass while I build up my tank/reen force. Otherwise I delay sp by about a minute and get my tank count up to bout 2-3 (with more rallying additional) and push at around the 8 minute mark off 3 rax and a SP. using the medivac to spot. Only real difference from Terran and toss is I push at the 8 minute mark. But with only 2-3 tanks total. But blue flame to help deal with Terran balls. Or a ghost or two to help deal with immortal or dts. Any thoughts?
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Hi Ver
I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also.
But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded?
Do you understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor?
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What do you think of MVP's new mech build that he debuted at IEM?
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Hi Ver,
I play platinum terran using the Filter-style macro build. My early game is very weak and I'd like to practice using early game all ins to work on my unit control and unit knowledge.
So: what are the best all ins to end the game early as terran against T, Z or P? I almost never Terran succeed at one in tournaments so I'm not sure where to look.
Thanks!
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On August 21 2012 00:32 teamamerica wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote:I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion. TvP + Show Spoiler + After a 1rax fe, what's the next step? I normally go into 3rax, double gas, 1 tech, rush starport, try to have drops by ~9 min? I double bunker at ramp if I scout aggression, and sometimes add ebay if I don't see expo. However, I'm a little unsure about 1) When to add ebay if I see 1gate expo 2) When to put addons beyond 1st tech lab (e.g. before factory? before ebay?) 3) Is it ever appropriate to get 4rax marine pressure/4rax mm pressure? Every time I try it I get shut down. 4) What's the best way to deal with zlot harass late game? I normally leave a bunker + 4 marines at each naked expo but I feel that's supply inefficient. 5) What to do when there's a warp prism in my base after I'm maxed? I've lost a few games to this when there are 10 zlots in my base and I'm maxed but my 3/3 hasn't finished. I know I should be able to win a fight when the toss has 22 supply in my base but if I attack, it makes me almost allin, and vs storm/collusi I have trouble attacking INTO it if the toss is set up well defensively.
Do I set up a turret ring (speed prism can fly over a single turret firing at it) or just leave some troops at home always?
6) Late game how many marines should I be able to produce at a time? After 3 reactors I tend to go all tech labs and was wondering if you advocated more marine in the late game.
Also: 1) What build is good on maps like Antiga, where 4gate blink obs is a huge pain to hold if I 1rax fe? I've honestly not had much success with 1-1-1 if my opponent doesn't go for a stupid build (i.e. he goes 1gate expo into 5gate robo). Am I just doing it wrong? I go 1rax 13 gas factory, 2nd gas after factory, reactor on rax sometime as factory builds, cloak banshees. Harass with them while cutting scvs ~22, going up to 3rax (1 reactor) and pushing with 3 tanks. But I've played so few games my sample size is ~5 games of trying it, so that could be contributing too.
2) What do you feel about 1rax fe into cloak banshees with defensive tanks to cover a quick 3rd + double ups (if I see a FE by opp only)? Sometimes after I lose a game to huge gateway timings/chargelot archon stuff I get upset my toss opp. didn't build an obs till 15 minutes and want to try it out, but from the games I've done it I can't really tell if it's worth sometimes getting a free win and other times getting rolled in a longer game because my upgrades are delayed and I don't have as much aggressive potential in the midgame I feel.
TvZ + Show Spoiler + I normally 1rax fe into double gas, factory, 3rd oc while this is happening and double upgrades, 4x hellions (or 0/2 depending if I don't see an early 3rd), and go for a 14 minute 2/2 1/0 almost max push of mm tank + a few medivacs. I normally only start to drop now or, sometimes send out a double drop instead of attacking and just turtle by my fourth. If this attack doesn't bring the Zerg down to 3base/significantly hurt them I normally just start dropping like mad vs hive tech and hoping to get lucky, or just turtling behind a huge wall of tank/viking and slowly trying to transition into bc and hope my opponent takes a bad fight.
1) If I 2rax 12/14, what's the timing for getting my factory/my addons/my upgardes? After a 2rax I never really have a set gameplan in mind so I think my games are pretty sloppy. 2) Is it worth building a bunker in the Zerg mineral line as their hatchery is building? I.e. just to pull drones off mining/sometimes get the bunker up but very rarely get a marine into it (off 1rax). Tradeoff is cost of bunker (25min) and a much delayed expo (if I do this, I also get 2nd depot before expand). 3) 3rd cc before/after double gas? 4) I never go for 2base pushes but I see some pros having good success with 2 base mmm+ hellion timings. I don't have above average micro though. Worth trying or just stick to practicing 1build? 5) Worth getting an early starport? Normally my starport and my tech lab upgardes are so late I have very little drop potential before around 14 minutes at the cost of a huge army of 2/2 marines. Sometimes I don't even have combat shields finished before 12 minutes or so.
TvT + Show Spoiler + 1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is) -1rax fe -2nd rax -double gas (2 in each gas) -scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax -when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes) -3rd rax gets reactor -engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates) -factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford). -when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural. -reactor on factory, starport -swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab. -after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game.
2) How do you feel about reactor hellion drop expos into mech? Late tanks but lots of early hellions + a decently timed expo. 3) After I reach medivacs in Thorzains build, do I add 3rd base or go up to 5rax? 4) If I play marine tank and run into a opponent who also goes 1rax expo but into mech, what to do? Sky terran, heavy mmm, or just marine tank with 3 factory tank support. I honestly run into terran so rarely (maybe 10 times this season?) that I don't know how to play TvT very well.
Thanks for taking the time to answer any of these! [edit: removed extra newlines :<] oh shoot also: are there more terrans in high masters? Not as a balance talk, it's just I play for fun mostly, and honestly don't enjoy just playing against a ton of Zerg/Protoss. It's purely my personal preference but I used to like playing TvZ vs muta a lot and I really like playing TvT, both of which are situations I rarely encounter now. Lately I've just been screwing around on a friends lower level account instead of laddering my main. Am I just really unlucky, or are all the Terrans just too much better than me for me to match them on ladder? Answered
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If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
Many thanks!
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