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On December 14 2012 20:45 netherh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2012 18:53 herMan wrote:On December 14 2012 17:53 tino wrote:
Sup,
during a TvT Code S match between Polt and Bbyong one of the casters said, that mech in TvT is the future. I'm only plat, so I do not have sufficient knowledge to agree or disagree with that statement. Would anybody care to elaborate on that? I also wouldn't mind to learn a mech build. It would be peachy it someone had a link to a vod/thread! gg Must've been Artosis... The reasoning behind mech > bio is the mech army composition which is unbeatable in straight up fights. People say mech is the future because mech has zero room for errors and thus you have to play it perfectly which no one has yet accomplished hundred percent. The benefit of bio is that it allows more errors since no one is nowhere perfect in this game yet. It allows mobility and rewards great multitasking, opposed to mech which is mostly sitting and waiting to max out. I think what people say (especially Artosis on non-P play) should be taken with a pinch of salt. Hellion / banshee harass rewards multi-tasking very nicely. Serious errors with bio (e.g. mis-judging tank count, not paying quite enough attention) are just as deadly. Sure, you may not die for another 5 or 10 minutes - but that doesn't mean you haven't lost if something goes far enough awry.
Yeah I'm on the same page with you, just explaining the reasoning behind it. I'm not hundred percent sure but aren't code S Terrans meching a lot more nowadays than in the past? Especially with TvZ.
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In TvP, does ebay always mean gasless expand? What are the sacrifices Terran makes to ebay block?
As a Protoss player that doesn't skip the zealot, I always love seeing the ebay block because it's free minerals for me, but I'm not sure exactly what it means for the Terran's build.
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http://drop.sc/284118
I just lost a TvZ and I would love some tips
I opened 1rax FE into hellion banshee. I denied his overlord scout so I faked a 2rax pressure, but he didnt bite. Later on I see my oppurtunity to just go in with my hellions and kill drones, I kill 20 drones. My 2 banshees were unable to do any damage however. So now I'm aiming to harass him with drops, while hitting a ~15min 2/2 +1 vehicle weapons timing. The drops dont shit this game .. he always has lings perfectly split.I always had more army supply but he held any push with ease with his infestors. I really don't know how to win TvZ these days.
When I saw his ultras I should've made more marauders, but i already had 8 rax and no building space. I tried to add 3 more rax in front of my third but he killed them. So i was left with 2 techlabs. I also expected him to just make a few ultras and then go broods. My 2nd factory and 5-8th rax were also a bit late.
*What does a 2base opening mean for my build? Obviously mutas are a possibility, but how can I take advantage of a 2base infestor build?
 o I need Thors against ultras?
*How could I have won there? Except making more marauders
Would really appreciate some help from a skilled terran!
Highish Mid master Terran
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On December 15 2012 03:30 kcdc wrote:
In TvP, does ebay always mean gasless expand?
Yes, other builds don't have spare minerals and/or there would be no point in the EB block.
On December 15 2012 03:30 kcdc wrote:
What are the sacrifices Terran makes to ebay block?
Slightly delayed Barracks/gas(es)/Bunker, wounded or dead SCV limiting rescouting/forcing another scouting SCV to check if Protoss did expand (else you risk losing to some delayed 4g or even 4g prism).
On December 15 2012 03:52 Crypdos wrote:http://drop.sc/284118I just lost a TvZ and I would love some tips
This thread does not review replays, so check the Terran Help Me Thread for my answer there. Now for your non-specific questions:
On December 15 2012 03:52 Crypdos wrote:
*What does a 2base opening mean for my build? Obviously mutas are a possibility, but how can I take advantage of a 2base infestor build?
Nothing particular I'm afraid. Just be happy he will get his 3-bases economy later and his creep spread will be weaker if he uses only 1 or 2 extra Queens and use them as part of his wall.
2-bases Infestors means you must have detection at the entrance of your base so no burrowed Infestors can enter your bases unseen. It also means he can try some kind of IT bust shortly after you land your third while your Tank count is low.
On December 15 2012 03:52 Crypdos wrote:
Do I need Thors against ultras?
Not with biomech. Even though they're decent against Ultralisks, they don't have armor upgrades with biomech builds so they're very vulnerable to +3 attack Cracklings.
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Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
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On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote:
Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting.
Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes.
Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe.
There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop.
Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions.
It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes.
Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions.
Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
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On December 23 2012 03:03 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote:
Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting. Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop. Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes. Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions. Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression.
i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame.
Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
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United States2186 Posts
On December 23 2012 05:33 Mia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 03:03 Thezzy wrote:On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote:
Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting. Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop. Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes. Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions. Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression. i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame. Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
It's harder to do damage with hellions than you think once warpgate is complete and observers are out, especially when you don't have +1 attack and blue flame to two shot probes. You win or lose tvp against good players by 1a battles, not harass, and without huge probe damage, something very difficult with sentries and stalkers warping in the mineral line, your main army will be severely lacking without sufficient compensation. Gumiho played against Creator in cloud kingdom with very heavy midgame hellion harass and did very well but it barely mattered.
I don't think that 12/14 eco builds are particularly viable. MKP used to do this for a time pre-queen patch but Zerg will know its not 11/11 by the marine timing and scv count (unless you load scvs in your cc, which might work). I'd say if you want to fake a bunker rush you hide your rax at your 3rd or something and just do rax cc cc.
What can work is what bogus did against soulkey on entombed in gsl ro8, a 12/12 with only 2 scvs pulled. Soulkey underestimated it and didn't pull a ton of drones, so bogus was able to inflict huge casualties and basically auto win from damage dealt.
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On December 24 2012 03:03 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2012 05:33 Mia wrote:On December 23 2012 03:03 Thezzy wrote:On December 23 2012 02:52 Mia wrote:
Tvp , when playing bio, using factory to produce helion, for dropping and harrasing probes, can even get blue flame if you want, the advantage that: helions are faster and can insta kill lots of probes, if drop 3 helions, even if they kill 6 probes only, it was totally worth it, since you only need to drop 3 units, and not 8, its harder to defend,what are your opinion? this is just theorycrafting. Keep in mind that Blue Flame is only useful once you get +1 Vehicle Weapons so Hellions can actually two shot Probes. Regular Hellions and Blue Flame without +1 both still require 3 shots to kill a Probe. There is more cost to the Hellion Drop than just the Hellions, you have to get a Reactor at your Barracks (delaying Bio production) then get a Starport and produce a Medivac and then actually do the drop. Since a Factory with a Reactor produces 2 Hellions at a time there is no real reason not to get 4 Hellions. It will increase your chances of getting that third shot off on the Probes. Obviously if you do manage to get a decent number of Probe kills you will be ahead but I would not consider 6 Probes to be worth a Hellion Drop if you lose all the Hellions. Also keep in mind that just a few Hellions and Marines with a Medivac are quite vulnerable to a Blink Stalker play or early Gateway aggression. i dont mean early game only, i mean all game, producing small amount of hellions and dropping/runby them, factory can just aswell produce addons for other buildings in early game. Im pretty sure if toss gets 2+ armor upgrade helions 4shots probe instead 3 shot, thats why i mentioned blue flame. Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable? It's harder to do damage with hellions than you think once warpgate is complete and observers are out, especially when you don't have +1 attack and blue flame to two shot probes. You win or lose tvp against good players by 1a battles, not harass, and without huge probe damage, something very difficult with sentries and stalkers warping in the mineral line, your main army will be severely lacking without sufficient compensation. Gumiho played against Creator in cloud kingdom with very heavy midgame hellion harass and did very well but it barely mattered. I don't think that 12/14 eco builds are particularly viable. MKP used to do this for a time pre-queen patch but Zerg will know its not 11/11 by the marine timing and scv count (unless you load scvs in your cc, which might work). I'd say if you want to fake a bunker rush you hide your rax at your 3rd or something and just do rax cc cc. What can work is what bogus did against soulkey on entombed in gsl ro8, a 12/12 with only 2 scvs pulled. Soulkey underestimated it and didn't pull a ton of drones, so bogus was able to inflict huge casualties and basically auto win from damage dealt.
would this hiden rax fake 2rax is valible in ladder?
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Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Any advices how i should handle this?
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Late game TvP after a major engagment, in which you come ahead but not enough to push their bases, because of warp in, what do you do? I find myself, when lucky enough, winning late game engagements but then trying to push and getting overrun with warp ins coming it. Is it that i'm not winning the fights by a large enough margin? if so how i can i assure that i do that?
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On December 24 2012 06:57 saaaa wrote:
Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Any advices how i should handle this?
A post a while ago did a critical analysis of how upgrades affect units in each matchup
[G] Critical Upgrade Analysis
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187603
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On December 23 2012 05:33 Mia wrote:
Another question: Doing 12/13 or 12/14 2rax tvz and pulling only 1 scv to bunker, not to win outright but to presure and force zerg make mistakes, while expanding behind is this viable?
12/14 light pressure was severely weakened by the Queen patch. Before, it was guaranteed you could force a Spine and additional Zerglings if you retained your initial Marines and rallied reinforcements in front of his natural; nowadays, Queens can defend this kind of delayed Marine pressure on their own. Realistically on current maps 12/14 can't complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery unless Zerg does not react, so you will end up with a later expand while not really hindering Zerg's development (Zerg is able to defend your pressure while still mining gas and going 2 Queens). You can always hope he overreacts with Zerglings but even then you won't achieve much. If you want to use 2 rax pressure I suggest using 11/11 with 3 SCVs; you sacrifice more economy but since the pressure is much stronger, Zerg is forced to respect your Bunker rush attempt and proceed cautiously, forgoing gas (or sacrificing his natural) and often delaying the second Queen (if he goes 2 Queens you should be able to complete a Bunker in front of the Hatchery) on top of forcing Spine(s) and Zerglings.
On December 24 2012 06:57 saaaa wrote:
Is there a huge difference between single upgrade and double upgrades in TvZ and TvT with mech?
I normally play in both match ups double upgrades but i'm not sure if it worth it or not. In TvZ i always think if i only upgrade attack i would have more tanks/thors in my army espicially against early roach aggression.
Any advices how i should handle this?
In TvZ mech forgoing armor upgrades make your units way more vulnerable to low-damage fast-attacking units such as Broodlings, Zerglings and Infested Terrans; for instance assuming equal upgrades it takes 100 Zerglings hits to kill a Thor while it takes 57 if Thor has no armor upgrades against a Zerglings with +3 attack. 3-3 Thors are semi-decent against low Broodlords counts but you can easily imagine the extra damage Broodlings would inflict upon Thors if they have no armor upgrades.
In TvT, I would say it depends on your build order, your plan and the situation. I think single Armory is better suited for midgame pushes because you will use the 3 extra Tanks to reach the critical mass earlier while double Armory is better on the long-term as your mech units won't lose their sturdiness against Marines and, to a lesser extent, Marauders; should an air transition occur, you will also have your double Armory at hand.
About the situation: dual Armory is delicate to get if you're not in a good spot because you might lack units and thus risk being dismantled by adverse pressure.
In mech vs mech I never get armor upgrades since 0-2 sieged Tanks destroy other Tanks in 3 shots anyway. There are modifying numbers between other units or unsieged Tanks and so on, but such mirrors are won through better moves/positioning and/or sheer numbers rather than upgrades. In that case you add the second Armory when starting your air transition.
On December 24 2012 13:43 ff7legend wrote:
Late game TvP after a major engagment, in which you come ahead but not enough to push their bases, because of warp in, what do you do?
Retreat. Unfortunately most of the time when you narrowly win a fight in TvP lategame all you have gained is the right to have another fight later, hopefully winning this one convincingly enough so you can at least destroy an expand before being forced to run away from Zealots' wrath. For sure, overextending against Zealots warp-ins and leftover defensive Templars is the worst thing to do; the exhaustion of your army by dint of repetitive Stims (which means Medivacs will eventually run out of energy) means you will lose troops for nothing, throwing away the edge you might have acquired. Depending on his expands' location you might be able to destroy a remote Nexus but do not sacrifice whatever is left from your army in order to do that. According to the situation you can also use this true-false victory to secure an expand after you retreated. TvP lategame is a war of attrition usually won after several major engagements when Protoss is forced to file for bankruptcy.
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In mech vs mech I never get armor upgrades since 0-2 sieged Tanks destroy other Tanks in 3 shots anyway. There are modifying numbers between other units or unsieged Tanks and so on, but such mirrors are won through better moves/positioning and/or sheer numbers rather than upgrades. In that case you add the second Armory when starting your air transition.
Regarding this, in TvT I had a friend who when he went mech, regardless of whether or not he was against mech or bio would go double armory. But instead of getting double mech upgrades, he would get vehicle attack on one armory and then air plating on the other, to prepare for an eventual air transition. Is this an advisable thing to do if you are aiming for that lategame air army?
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I'm starting to have trouble vs mech (TVT) on smaller maps such as ohana. Do you have any replays/VODs you can link that illustrate how to handle playing bio or marine/rauder/tank versus mech on smaller maps? Or any suggestions you may have would be great too!
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Do you guys use the F1+Strg to take all idle workers at once?
I want to implement the camera keys to my play but the F1 key is used for idle workers and in combination with strg for select all idle workers.
Do you have any suggestions to solve this?
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On December 26 2012 09:15 saaaa wrote:
Do you guys use the F1+Strg to take all idle workers at once?
I want to implement the camera keys to my play but the F1 key is used for idle workers and in combination with strg for select all idle workers.
Do you have any suggestions to solve this?
I have f1 for idle worker and f2-f5 +mouse hotkeys for screen positioning, do what you think is best.
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Hi guys,
im struggling with Protoss all-ins. I scout the lack of an expansion and find three gates in their base. However the Robo/Dark Shrine are commonly proxied. Then i am left in the dark with what is coming (Immortal, Warp Prism, Blink, Dark Templar). I have no clue how to find their proxies (could be anyhwere + i only have marines due to 1rax expand so i cant move out against stalkers) and even then a robo could still mean 3 different all-ins. How do i know which all-in is coming?
Thank you for your help.
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I'm not sure if this strategy has been discussed.
But recently I have been looking a little into the TvZ early game and one of the things I've noticed since the Queen buff is how much zergs are delaying ling speed these days.
So to combat this I've looked quickly into speed upgraded reapers as a means of early harass. Without speed lings are 0.01 slower than speed upgraded reapers on creep. In packs of 4-6 they can ravage mineral lines and trade fairly well with queens if micro'd (6+).
Another advantage that reapers bring is the ability to jump ledges, these days zergs pre-emptively wall off with buildings, spines and queens at their natural ramp, reapers would be able to negate this I think before you could get medivacs.
I haven't tried to put this theory to test in any games yet because I wanted to run it by you lot to see if it's worthwhile. The biggest problems I think the build would have is that it would be easy to scout with overlords, hard to hold any sort of early pressure from Z, a big investment early on if you don't get a good amount of damage done in return and probably isn't that much quicker than getting medivacs, though I've not really tested it and it's just something that popped into my mind over Christmas (how exciting)
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Hey, im a Masters Zerg that is smurfing as Terran. I managed to hit diamond as terran recently but struggled against zerg ever since (although i find it the most fun).
Today i got rolled as Zerg against a pure bio Terran (low master), and i didn't feel i played that bad.
So my question is: is pure bio a good way too learn the macro mechanics of Terran (because of mobility, and less worrying about tank positioning) in ZvT? Or do you guy's consider it too volatile?
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EPT
