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A recent trend I observed in T v P (low - mid masters level) is that protosses going for templar tech (HT or archons) are playing extremely aggressively in the midgame (on daybreak especially).
In 2-3 games so far I have had zealot HT/archon armies coming over to my side of the map around 11-13min, while I'm trying to get my 3rd (they get their 3rd too).
This seems to be a potent timing as my medivac count is low, my ghost academy has yet to start, and my 4th and 5th raxes have just started to kick in.
I have tried two approaches so far, and both were unsuccessful:
1) Bunker up(3-4) and fight : few or no ghosts have made me vulnerable to aoe units, and my opponent muscles through the bunker wall with mostly zealots
2) Try to snipe his 3rd, and possible base trade : You still have to deal with templar tech without ghost support, unless you do snipe all buildings (which is rare)
I am mostly used to protosses being conservative in the mid game and I have no experience in dealing with such aggressive posturing in the midgame. Any thoughts? Thanks!
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Quick question about applying pressure, in TvZ
when I open 11 gas into hellion expand, into banshee, and with my first 4-6 hellions I roast some drones and being pushed back by roaches. Then I come in with banshees and he is taken a third the question is, what is better, deny the third or try to do damage in main/neutral with banshees? I feel like killing of the 3rd base and getting my own 3rd is better then killing drones in main. what are your thought about applying this pressure early in the game?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
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Hey there,
I've been using Eco-Banshee in TvT recently [11 Gas 13 Rax into Banshee (mostly with cloak) expand] I've been wondering though how many marines I have to get in case he is throwing some kind of 1 base agression like helion drop on me?
At the moment i also usually slam down a reactor on my baracks that I can transfer to my factory for quick helions if needed.
Banshee obviously provides super good scouting, so am concerned if there are any things that hit before ~6:45 or that this scout is too late for.
Really really unsure how many corners I can cut. Before getting up my 2nd CC, any experience / advice?
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United States2186 Posts
On December 28 2012 17:53 ThaSlayer wrote:
A recent trend I observed in T v P (low - mid masters level) is that protosses going for templar tech (HT or archons) are playing extremely aggressively in the midgame (on daybreak especially).
In 2-3 games so far I have had zealot HT/archon armies coming over to my side of the map around 11-13min, while I'm trying to get my 3rd (they get their 3rd too).
This seems to be a potent timing as my medivac count is low, my ghost academy has yet to start, and my 4th and 5th raxes have just started to kick in.
I have tried two approaches so far, and both were unsuccessful:
1) Bunker up(3-4) and fight : few or no ghosts have made me vulnerable to aoe units, and my opponent muscles through the bunker wall with mostly zealots
2) Try to snipe his 3rd, and possible base trade : You still have to deal with templar tech without ghost support, unless you do snipe all buildings (which is rare)
I am mostly used to protosses being conservative in the mid game and I have no experience in dealing with such aggressive posturing in the midgame. Any thoughts? Thanks!
This actually cannot work, so it's something you can relax against once you get to figure it out. Colossus have some possibility of midgame attacks (rarely) but templar armies do not. There are two reasons for this. First is that anytime the Protoss does midgame aggression before he approaches high gateway count + high supplies + defending templars, you can auto win with a counter drop into base race. You depot/bunker spam your natural while your drop depowers all his production buildings.
Second reason is that if you keep your army together, don't lose it frivolously, he can't actually push across the map. Templar cannot storm kiting bio units effectively. So in effect he has to purchase territory across the map in blood (zealots) and storms; however, this is very cost inefficient because you just keep kiting away and forcing fights in bad chokes while dodging any storm because templars are slow.
If he does some kind of 2 base templar/archon/zealot allin, like elfi vs thorzain on daybreak from that euro tourney finals, you auto win with bunkers and a full supply depot wall in your natural, especially if you pair it with a counter drop.
Some reference games: Kas/Parting Daybreak, RSL2 (replay available). MKP/Parting Daybreak, KSL Finals (vod, from owned tv i think), Bomber/Rain, Ohana (MLG Dallas).
On December 28 2012 21:24 Pyrox wrote:
Quick question about applying pressure, in TvZ
when I open 11 gas into hellion expand, into banshee, and with my first 4-6 hellions I roast some drones and being pushed back by roaches. Then I come in with banshees and he is taken a third the question is, what is better, deny the third or try to do damage in main/neutral with banshees? I feel like killing of the 3rd base and getting my own 3rd is better then killing drones in main. what are your thought about applying this pressure early in the game?
Many thanks and keep up the good work!
Basically your build doesn't work the higher you go up. My thoughts about applying pressure is that you can do damage with rax cc/14cc into hellion/banshee -> 3rd cc versus weaker players but if they are as good as you, you won't have much opportunity. Zerg is essentially immune to damage early game if they play right. Studying games like Mvp vs Slivko on Ohana from IEM are good to help you with the harass.
On December 28 2012 23:19 FancYCaT wrote:
Hey there,
I've been using Eco-Banshee in TvT recently [11 Gas 13 Rax into Banshee (mostly with cloak) expand] I've been wondering though how many marines I have to get in case he is throwing some kind of 1 base agression like helion drop on me?
At the moment i also usually slam down a reactor on my baracks that I can transfer to my factory for quick helions if needed.
Banshee obviously provides super good scouting, so am concerned if there are any things that hit before ~6:45 or that this scout is too late for.
Really really unsure how many corners I can cut. Before getting up my 2nd CC, any experience / advice?
On a 2 player map you always 12 scout to make sure he's going rax cc or some gas build.
gas first cloak banshee is rarely seen because it's not an eco build: you have to do a lot of damage. I never do these builds so I'm sorry I can't give you a very thorough answer, but because your banshee is later than normal you should be playing safe against any gas opening. Against gas first elevator you will have to play very cautiously.
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Hi!
I have a hard time against different protoss all ins as a terran player doing 1rax fe/14cc. First of all, when I scout their base I see 2 gases. What this usually indicates is that the protoss will do some 1 base shenanigans, however I can't overreact since they could very well expand. Scouting the protoss base is very hard after the initial scv because of stalker(s) defending/hunting for scvs. Scanning is something you want to avoid doing but kind of have to, since defending the different all ins take different measures. If you are lucky scanning might give you a tell of what he is doing but it's not a must since protosses like to proxy stargates/robotics facilities and hide their twilight council. So my question is: how do you react in a proper way? What measures should be taken?
Thanks!
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On December 29 2012 20:45 olagriner wrote:
Hi!
I have a hard time against different protoss all ins as a terran player doing 1rax fe/14cc. First of all, when I scout their base I see 2 gases. What this usually indicates is that the protoss will do some 1 base shenanigans, however I can't overreact since they could very well expand. Scouting the protoss base is very hard after the initial scv because of stalker(s) defending/hunting for scvs. Scanning is something you want to avoid doing but kind of have to, since defending the different all ins take different measures. If you are lucky scanning might give you a tell of what he is doing but it's not a must since protosses like to proxy stargates/robotics facilities and hide their twilight council. So my question is: how do you react in a proper way? What measures should be taken?
Thanks!
Hi, high master terran here.
About scouting protoss allins: When you see 2 gas, you also need to take note about the pylon positioning and look for the 3rd pylon. Very distant pylons can mean he wants to spread out/hide his tech, and a missing 3rd pylon is obviously a big warning sign. Take your scv out of his base before 4:10 which is when a chronod stalker comes out and look around a bit for a 3rd pylon. At the same time send an scv/your marines to look for the normal spots of proxy around your base (at your 3rd or other spots depending on maps).
Come back with your scv around 5:30-6, if he hasn't expanded you can scan at around 6:30 if you think his tech is inbase and probably find out what he's doing. If he has expanded be mindful of the option of DT expand.
Also - early 2 gas tech builds often skip the first zealot, and/or the safety sentry after the stalker. This allows you to be a bit more aggressive with your early 5 marines. This is something that takes a bit of practice, but you can get some great scouting by grabbing his xelnaga and pushing his stalker back at best, or at worst just getting your xelnaga and placing a marine at ur 3rd scouting for a proxy pylon.
Another good tell is whether or not and to what extend he's poking with his stalker.
Bottom line is, if you're laddering you want to be extremely active scouting in the early game never losing your first scouting scv and sending another one if you suspect proxy as well as proper marine positioning/map control.
*Another thing to note is when/if he leaves your base with his own scouting probe and where he goes with it. If you send your first marine to the xelnaga and you notice the probe isn't there and it hasn't returned to his base it may very well be out on the map somewhere - find it!
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Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
By the way, my normal opener is Polt's TvZ.
Thank you again.
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On December 30 2012 01:55 Lionbacker wrote:
Hi guys, I need some help in the following situation:
TvZ
I scout an early gas, one base, baneling bust. What is the proper build order and adjustment? Bunkers? How many of them? Units? How many of them? If I survive it, how do I transition into mid game and are there particular units I should be shooting for? Any help would be appreciated! I get thrown out of wack and don't know what to do.
By the way, my normal opener is Polt's TvZ.
Thank you again.
sry did'nt recognize that this is pro thread
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On December 26 2012 00:50 kollin wrote:
Regarding this, in TvT I had a friend who when he went mech, regardless of whether or not he was against mech or bio would go double armory. But instead of getting double mech upgrades, he would get vehicle attack on one armory and then air plating on the other, to prepare for an eventual air transition. Is this an advisable thing to do if you are aiming for that lategame air army?
Personally I would not do this because only a small part of TvTs reach the air vs air stage, so the long-term investment would be negated in the vast majority of the games.
On December 28 2012 04:39 Marathi wrote:
I'm not sure if this strategy has been discussed.
But recently I have been looking a little into the TvZ early game and one of the things I've noticed since the Queen buff is how much zergs are delaying ling speed these days.
So to combat this I've looked quickly into speed upgraded reapers as a means of early harass. Without speed lings are 0.01 slower than speed upgraded reapers on creep. In packs of 4-6 they can ravage mineral lines and trade fairly well with queens if micro'd (6+).
Another advantage that reapers bring is the ability to jump ledges, these days zergs pre-emptively wall off with buildings, spines and queens at their natural ramp, reapers would be able to negate this I think before you could get medivacs.
I haven't tried to put this theory to test in any games yet because I wanted to run it by you lot to see if it's worthwhile.
No, Reapers are way too slow to produce, too fragile, too expensive and you would be left with a horrible infrastructure (many Barracks with Tech Labs). You could score numerous Drone kills and still end up massively behind simply because of this. Reapers do not trade well at all with Queens considering the resources/production inequality, and it takes 30 hits to kill a Queen with each Transfusion negating roughly 20 hits. Zergs can have 4/6 Queens before you reach a significant Reaper count, not to mention the endless other issues against gas builds.
On December 28 2012 05:46 massivez wrote:
Hey, im a Masters Zerg that is smurfing as Terran. I managed to hit diamond as terran recently but struggled against zerg ever since (although i find it the most fun).
Today i got rolled as Zerg against a pure bio Terran (low master), and i didn't feel i played that bad.
So my question is: is pure bio a good way too learn the macro mechanics of Terran (because of mobility, and less worrying about tank positioning) in ZvT? Or do you guy's consider it too volatile?
Even if Tanks-free compositions exist in TvZ, Tanks remain a core unit in TvT/Z so I would strongly advise to use them. You can still practice pure bio in TvP.
On December 29 2012 19:33 monkybone wrote:
What do you think of Polt's TvZ build as outlined in day9's daily recently?
It's basically a standard 1 rax CC into reactor hellion, with two quick additional raxes after both gases are taken. Stim is researched asap. The addons are two tech labs, and one reactor. Polt reactors out hellions constantly, and together with marine and double marauder production he goes for a stim+CS timing push. He reinforces constantly with hellions and marine marauder to apply heavy pressure to the Zerg throughout the game.
I think TvZ comes down to denying overlord scouting of your main. Zerg can't tell if it's a 1 rax double CC, a 1/1/1, BFH or bio opening. If he does, it becomes too easy to shut down anything.
Personally I stick to my last answer:
On December 13 2012 02:39 TheDwf wrote:
Unfortunately this kind of timing “punishes” only bad scouting and/or risky play. 6 Queens builds can hold any 2-bases timing and thus remain at a significant advantage (which should translate to a win unless Zerg feels sorry for you and gives you 10 Infestors or something) if Zerg sacrifices an Overlord and react appropriately. I could go so far as to say that with the current state of TvZ, those builds are basically disguised all-ins. I am exaggerating a bit there but you see the point, those builds really have to do tons of damage to justify your delayed third and upgrades; even if you wipe out the entire third you're not in a particularly commanding position.
I once ran into a Zerg who prepared a surround with Zerglings/Banelings (out of 55 Drones on 3 bases) to defend my Marine/Marauder/Hellion timing and I can tell you things were not pretty to watch.
Entirely denying an Overlord sacrifice with only 2 Marines for a while is nearly impossible on most maps, not to mention the problem of the ridiculous Overlord spots overhanging your natural (e. g. CK, Abyssal City, Whirlwind) or the way out (Daybreak).
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On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 03:40 TheDwf wrote:On December 13 2012 02:39 TheDwf wrote:
Unfortunately this kind of timing “punishes” only bad scouting and/or risky play. 6 Queens builds can hold any 2-bases timing and thus remain at a significant advantage (which should translate to a win unless Zerg feels sorry for you and gives you 10 Infestors or something) if Zerg sacrifices an Overlord and react appropriately. I could go so far as to say that with the current state of TvZ, those builds are basically disguised all-ins. I am exaggerating a bit there but you see the point, those builds really have to do tons of damage to justify your delayed third and upgrades; even if you wipe out the entire third you're not in a particularly commanding position.
I once ran into a Zerg who prepared a surround with Zerglings/Banelings (out of 55 Drones on 3 bases) to defend my Marine/Marauder/Hellion timing and I can tell you things were not pretty to watch. Entirely denying an Overlord sacrifice with only 2 Marines for a while is nearly impossible on most maps, not to mention the problem of the ridiculous Overlord spots overhanging your natural (e. g. CK, Abyssal City, Whirlwind) or the way out (Daybreak). But what about using more than 2 marines? Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it. Day9 did make a daily on it, so it wouldn't be too hard, and to be fair, polt is using it for a reason. In the example game revival did make 6 queens. True, it might not be the best choice on maps where the move out is scouted (daybreak, on CK you can sneak by), or on maps where an overlord is going to scout your shit no matter what (again CK is a good map for denying scout).
Not only Polt, the build Innovation(Bogus) has been using in Tvz for a while has been depot before 2 gas to get 4 marines.
This gives you flexibility in a number of area including denying overlords/map control/poking the zerg early and sniping overlords.
If you have just 2 marines the zerg can abuse this abit by poking his zerglings at your front while sending an overlord in knowing you have just 2 of them. Also 4 marines are better at holding off some meta-gamey aggressions.
Gogo bogus gogo 4 marines  .
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On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote:
But what about using more than 2 marines?
The CC first variant cannot get more than 2 Marines until ~6'30 at best (unless you don't immediately swap Barracks with Factory but that delays everything, not to mention safety issues against some gas openings). The 1 rax FE variants can get either 3 or 4 Marines depending on whether you get dual gas before or after second gas, but even if you manage to deny the Overlord sacrifice Zerg can still deduce you're going for a timing by noticing lack of gases at the natural (something Overlords can see on many maps) and/or lack of third (Overlord sacrifices usually see the third CC because of how big the building is); besides, Zerglings can sneak on the map and scout the entrance of your natural. Concealing your plan from a Zerg who really tries to scout is extremely difficult.
On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote:
Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it.
I do speak from my own experience, I used this build dozens of times.
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Hi guys,
I've been wondering if there are any good gas builds for TvP aiming for early harass. I know the 1/1/1 hellion drop with proxy starport but anything else? I'm just sick of opening 1rax fe every game and it would be nice to keep the protoss guessing for even once.
I've also forgotten much about the 2base archon chargelot all in (i think it was) that people were using in the GSL. Is it a viable, strong all in and what are the steps to holding it off?
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On December 30 2012 07:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2012 04:54 monkybone wrote:
Polt makes 4 marines with this build. I appreciate the answer, but I still have faith in this build, and I'd really like to see someone adept take a look at it. I do speak from my own experience, I used this build dozens of times.
It blows my mind that these 2 base timings do not work vs a good zerg, and it makes me sad. I go 3 CC double ebay every game, and you know what? My zerg practice partners start tot abuse it. They know I can't attack before 13:00, so they drone drone and tech so greedy. Then they just destroy my 2-2 timing and expand like a beast.
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I have lately some trouble about holding my bases with mech .. even with turret rings etc
What is the timing to get my 4th+5th and additional bases? Should i get them only with a max army because when i get them before i feel i'am spread to thin do defend everything properly.
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Hey there Ver / Dwf. I need some help with my late game mech TvZ. I do the regular hellion banshee with cloak or eco hellion banshee with fast 3rd into the eventual 2-2 push. How it goes is I roast enough drones with run by's or defend the harass of their own well enough to kill them right there with the push, when it doesn't work I go up to 3-4 starports to get vikings out if I know broods are coming. I normally end up killing their first broodlord army but then then steam rolled by the ultra ling switch. Should I be making more ravens? I only get 2-3 for some PDD's because I just dont find HSM all that effective and it just feels gimmicky because it relies on the zerg not splitting their corruptors.
TL:DR How to deal with zergs late game tech switches with mech, or are you just screwed if your 2-2 timing doesn't work
Edit - High masters
PS: Beat my first GM today!
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Ver & Dwf, I just watched Goswser crush MVP with a 10:00-11:00 minute speed roach/queen drop. Rewind 1 week ago when Stephano forced MVP to tap out after a 10:00-11:00 minute roach/hydra bust. Zergs are rewriting the script of standard TvZ. What adjustments should terrans make to survive these deadly timing attacks?
I'm opening hellion/banshee --> hellions scout no hatch at third --> hellions find 2 evo chambers and 4 queens. It could either be really friggin safe, or it could be some kind of +1 roach/hydra, +1 speed/roach, or +1 roach/ling/muta timing. It now seems like any kind of 8 hellion --> banshee --> 3CC --> double armory or engibay --> delayed production type of build is risky. Queens are being used to tech hard on 2 bases. Minimal resources are put into defense. Z will have faster +1 upgrades than the hellion/banshee player.
By the time you reach the wall of 4 queens + evo chambers and find no hatch at third, your 3rd & 4th hellions will be out, starport just finished. What adjustments should the terran make from here?
What should I do with my factory? Stop at 4 hellions? How quickly should I rush for tanks?
What should I do with my early starport? I could go for a banshee, or I could start a raven/vikings, or a medivac to drop those 4 hellions. I feel like banshees are 100% completely useless any combination of overseer + queens/hydra/muta. PDD is good against all of these things.
Would you suggest I go for faster additional raxx/facts by delaying my 3rd CC? and how about cutting worker production at approx 44 SCVs?
I will always be behind on upgrades when opening hellion/banshee vs. Z. I think a more conservative option would be rushing only for +1 attack, instead of double ups. So, at the moment my response to double evo/4 queen/no third is:
Cut hellions at 4
Cut the banshee either for a) 1 medivac (if spawn locations/map allow for a sneaky drop), or b) raven into reactor vikings or reactor medivacs, depending on what I see from Z.
Cut third command center for now --> throw down raxx/fact #2 and #3 immediately.
A single armory or engineering bay for +1 attack.
Gas #3, but cut gas #4 for now.
Cut SCVs at approx 44 - only resume worker production when I confirm Z has started a hatch at his third.
Rush out stimpacks and tanks.
An additional bunker at my natural ramp.
Delayed 3rd CC, just whenever I can afford it really.
After I move my 3rd CC to natural third, immediately throw down sensor tower.
Also, how can I scout this shit as early as possible? and most importantly, what is my long term course of action after I hold this attack? It seems like a pretty solid way to tech to hive, take a 3rd/4th, and spread creep undisturbed...
I know this is a big question, sorry, but it's really fucking bothering me. Thank you
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EPT
