|
On August 21 2012 17:53 Thezzy wrote:
Awesome thread Ver, some really good bits in there.
In TvZ, how do you feel about Mass Hellion openings?
I'm currently doing MvPs build where he gets a second Reactor Factory after doing a Reaction Hellion FE, producing 4 hellions for a while.
One barracks is added a little later and both rax get Tech Labs and can provide an instant switch to double tank, 4x marine production although upgrades are late. (I usually switch to tanks around 8:00 - 8:30 unless I scout something like Roach pressure)
I do like Mass Hellion openings but I was wondering if you had seen any other Mass Hellion builds and what kind of success players were having with them?
For TvP, I currently do Day9's Mech TvP build where you open with a 1-1-1 cloakshee expand and then get Thor/Raven/Marine and later add Tanks. Do you know any other Mech TvP builds that saw some success as I saw Goody try heavy tank play in IEM but it failed horribly so I'm guessing mass Tank early on isn't very strong against a good Protoss?
TvZ mass hellion is perfectly ok. The only thing you should be aware of about massing hellions is couple things. If opponent opens fast mutas, u might not have the marine count to deal with the mutas (Unless u open mech for thors). Your mineral to gas ratio might be imbalanced abit so grabbing more gas geysers is very important in order to transition.
|
Big fan of yours Ver - are you streaming these days?
|
On August 23 2012 11:31 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 05:11 U_G_L_Y wrote:
On August 20 2012 22:21 DocHolliday wrote:
If you normally play a 1 rax fe opening on TvP, do you have any tips for when opponent goes 1 base blink stalker, in particular this kills me on Antiga.
As soon as I have identified its 1 base blink should I try and defend natural + main, or lift CC and just hold main?
Many thanks! The most important thing vs blink obs allins is that you don't let him snipe your stim. This means you need to put extra care to where your tech labbed rax is placed. I think the ideal way to hold it is lifting into the main, but you should always be able to stop it sitting in the natural anyway. You want to add tech labs asap, as marines are not very useful in holding it, and then start your factory when you can. The key way to play it is that you trade scvs for time whenever he blinks in and push him away. You are basically stalling for stim at first, after which you can really punish him if he blinks too aggressively and has no escape. Then you more or less wait around threatening stims (but not actually doing so) until you get medivacs, after which point the game is won. Alternatively, you can try to hold with a bunker in the main and at the nat and scvs pulled wherever necessary. Rain held ddoro's blink allin on Shakuras from MLG Columbus.
Select gets 2 tech labs and rushes conc over stim if he scouts blink fast enough, which can really hurt them if they blink up and walk a bit (you can catch a stalker or two that go in too deep).
Sensor tower is also really useful if you managed to hold the first wave (props 2 avilo) which helps you know where to posture your units.
|
In TvZ, or rather, a question that could perhaps become very generalized for all matchups.|
How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well? Specifically for me, TvZ.
How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good?
I very often net myself various earlier advantages in a matchup, but due to my bad control when it comes to a large scale engagement, I throw away everything I have earned from earlier.
|
United States2186 Posts
On August 20 2012 07:30 Ragnarok_1er wrote:Hi, thanks a lot for doing this. Random masters player here, having some trouble with TvP. I'm using the build from Drewbie's guide ( http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4456 ). It gets 4 rax then 2 gas at around 35 supply, and you basically make a ton of marines for a while. Is this build outdated? I feel extremely weak until I have stim, and have lost more than once against protoss players who camp with stalkers in front of my bunker(s), force repairing and lost mining time, and get way ahead while I'm completely contained.
This build was questionable even back then and is definitely outdated. Right now it is pretty much just a coinflip build that is only used to punish greedy Protosses who do insane builds like stalker nexus dt or forge. But if Protoss does any standard build it won't do any damage and you'll end up behind. You also die easier to certain allins (MC vs Ganzi on Entombed, Code groups).
On August 20 2012 08:38 Jockmcplop wrote:
Hi i'm a gold terran (EU) and i am just wondering if my build vs zerg is viable.
The basics of it are:
gas first > fast BFH > expand at 5:20 > a few banshees into a banshee thor hellion style.
I have won a few games, but i guess i just played better than other guy.. in an even match i'm not sure this build is too good vs zerg (it works vs terran).
Also I've been struggling with mutas alot. Should i get an ebay and put turrets up by ten minutes, or just go for an armory and build thors? i can't afford both.
This build is no good vs any race. Blue flame that early is never worth it and your build doesn't do anything. You essentially kill your own econ and don't have any real offensive potential either. Look at what players like Taeja or Ghostking do instead.
On August 20 2012 10:11 cutehotdog wrote:
In TvP i currently do Bomber's build and i am having problems vs fast collosus defenses. Whenever i hit the timing of +1 medivacs, i seem to get barely smashed by the protoss who later on just roll over me. Is there any tips as to when to push vs Colossus or how to play out the mid-game?
If you can't break their position you shouldn't actually attack it. Losing your army without sufficient compensation is about the worst thing you can do in this game. See Bomber vs Minigun on Ohana from IEM. Bomber has no early timing so he just waits and breaks him at 200 supply and enough vikings. If they have colossus and are cowering in a choke you either have to drop them or give up attacking. Instead you just expand, upgrade, and start viking production. Once you have enough vikings you can start harassing the colossus if he plays too passively.
Colossus play is very vulnerable to drops in general, but if he 2 base turtles you can't drop, so all you need to do is simply expand, threaten drops, and upgrade as he can't attack you. If he does actually attack then you simply drop him several full medivacs while holding your natural ramp. If he doesn't retreat you target important pylons with your drop while you pull scvs to hold your ramp, if he retreats you press forward with your main force.
On August 20 2012 10:02 BlueBoxSC wrote:
I want to switch to Terran. I plan on adopting the Bomber build for TvP and the Thorzain build for TvT.
I can't find a style to emulate for TvZ, but I want to play bio. Suggestions?
The build Ghostking did against Nestea on Cloud Kingdom in the GSL ro8 is probably the most robust and reliable TvZ build. Taeja's mainstay TvZ opening is riskier but still works well (search his TLopen qualifier reps vs Shine).
On August 20 2012 10:38 AfroKen wrote:
Hello. First of all, thank you for taking the time to answer so many questions. I'm currently a gold level Terran and was wondering if you can give me any tips with my build order?
So I've been using a one base timing while I expand behind the attack. I 13 and 19 gas. Factory at first 100 gas. If its Zerg I get sp right after factory , get two banshees and harass while I build up my tank/reen force. Otherwise I delay sp by about a minute and get my tank count up to bout 2-3 (with more rallying additional) and push at around the 8 minute mark off 3 rax and a SP. using the medivac to spot. Only real difference from Terran and toss is I push at the 8 minute mark. But with only 2-3 tanks total. But blue flame to help deal with Terran balls. Or a ghost or two to help deal with immortal or dts. Any thoughts?
Yes, you should never use that build against any race. Unfortunately it is gimmicky and will only beat players who have no idea what you're doing. If say I used this build against a player slightly below my level, I could never win with it. Look through the thread for some other recommended openings.
On August 20 2012 11:40 dynwar7 wrote:
Hi Ver
I have a question. For example, using/opening with reactor hellions to harass is good, (obviously lol) but....my question is, is it ok to open with some hellions to harass, or perhaps maybe banshees to harass AND THEN stop producing them? So for example if you go mech, then sure it is easy to harass with hellions since you are gonna bemaking hellions the whole time, and you get upgrades also.
But if I go bio, but I want to harass with hellions, I can do it right? I just need to stop later on when their workers probably already have +1 armor since my hellions/banshees wont be upgraded?
Do you understand? I hope you do, and this is a common strategy, isnt it? To use hellions or banshees JUST for early game harass, and then never actually making those units once early game is done or when enemy workers have +1 armor?
Yes that is the logic behind what everyone does. If you open hellion/banshee and transition into 3 base bio TvZ, you cut at 6 or 8 hellions and 2 or 3 banshees then never make them again, as they have served there purpose and any more will be a waste of money. When you do this it's rather situational to actually harass: you have to prioritize keeping your units alive as they leave the Zerg blinded and give you the initiative for a long time.
On August 20 2012 11:42 scCassius wrote:
What do you think of MVP's new mech build that he debuted at IEM?
It's very solid and robust, though it's not MVPs build. Puma used it at MLG Anaheim to great effect as well. It's not nearly so good if the Zerg is experienced against it and handles the harass effectively, as the upgrades are very late. He definitely benefited from playing only foreigner Zergs - except when he lost to Violet. I'm not convinced it will work against top Korean Zergs for long. iirc DRG smashed Puma when he tried it.
The MVP difference is his focus on tanks throughout the game and his consistently well timed harass. The main thing I learned from watching him is that I overmake thors when I go mech, even against broods. MVP has enough tanks to make sure the infestors can't just wreck him mid-battle. He also has great judgment when he can hit a pre-brood timing and when he should turtle and tech to raven/viking.
|
Italy12237 Posts
I have a question regarding TvT .
It seems to me (not understaing the mu very well at all) that terrans tend to get their tanks up at seemingly random times, at least to my eyes...sometimes they go for a huge marine ball early on, other times they decided to tech faster, and i don't really understand why. What triggers someone to start teching up to tanks?
|
This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff.
I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran):
1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac.
2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible.
3) What is you favorite TvT build on Daybreak?
|
What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP?
|
Thanks for doing this thread, it is excellent.
I have a question about TvT (happy to provide replays if necessary but I don't think it is):
I use a build I stole from Ganzi which is basically a 1 rax FE into 3 rax then double gas. He prioritises upgrades so double eng bays follows very soon thereafter. I struggle A LOT vs early siege tank pushes, especially if they have used banshee harrass (there are cloak and non-cloak variants which affect timings slightly). If they keep the banshees alive it is very hard to meet the incoming force in the middle of the map and force repeated sieges to delay his push. So I'm often faced with a siege up outside my natural... So my question: what is the best way to deal with this kind of push? The two choices seem to me to be:
a) use a bunker and missile turret at the front to try to delay with scv repair as necessary as long as possible. If you can keep his vision of the high ground limited to his scans then you probably have time to get out medivacs (maybe...);
b) pull all scvs, wait for any upgrades that are about to finish and then try to bum-rush him... (this hardly ever works).
I've tried adapting the composition slightly by throwing a few marauders into the mix; I've tried stim before combat shield... but often I still lose. I "think" the idea is to somehow hold him off and then go for a base trade using medivacs if you can hold out long enough but I'd welcome the views of an expert. (And of course if there is a replay of a pro game where this happened I'd love to see it...)
Thanks again.
|
Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push?
|
|
|
Master terran, I use polt's TvP opening which is a standard 1 rax CC double rax double gas, with 1 techlab and no addons on the other 2 barracks until starport is made with a standard push when 2 medievacs are done.
Btw a tip for terrans is to only put 1 marine in ur bunkers if ur afraid of a 2 base pressure/allin, that way it looks like you have alot more units than you have which might scare the protoss into falling back while if you had all ur untis in the bunkers he could've killed you.
https://sc2bc.com/r/2746 Here's a replay if anyone's interested.
Any thoughts?
|
Hey Ver,
Do you remember me? We used to talk on battle net about what events you were doing and I would always tell you I was rooting for you?
*fanboy status*
haha.. Well anyways I really wanted to thank you for doing this thread, its a big help to us terran players out there.
I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank.
I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
Thanks,
ILuMiNaTe
|
Hi, I am a former platinum Terran that stopped playing for about 6 months and would like to get back in shape. Was thinking to use the hellion/banshee opening in TvZ, with transition into bio-tank. Could you please recommend me some good replays from which I could learn this build? Thanks in advance!
|
On August 23 2012 17:32 Teoita wrote:
I have a question regarding TvT .
It seems to me (not understaing the mu very well at all) that terrans tend to get their tanks up at seemingly random times, at least to my eyes...sometimes they go for a huge marine ball early on, other times they decided to tech faster, and i don't really understand why. What triggers someone to start teching up to tanks?
It depends on your opening, or more accurately it depends on the interaction between your opening and your opponent's. When opening 1 rax FE → 3 rax you tech Tanks late because you first dump all your gas into bio upgrades then medivacs. When opening 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you tech Tanks straight away if you scout one-base pressure or head for Hellions and/or Banshees first if you plan to mech and your opponent went fast expand too (when playing mech, you try to tech Tanks later so you can have more active units such as Hellions and Banshees pressuring on the map). When opening 1-1-1 against 1 rax FE → 3 rax you usually tech Tanks quickly (e. g. after Marine/Hellion elevator or Banshee) so you can defend while you catch up in bio tech; or you use Tanks agressively for further pressure, etc.
On August 23 2012 23:48 herMan wrote:
This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff.
I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran):
1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac.
2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible.
1. No, MMM with Tanks is commonly played too. Whether you play this or pure bio is up to you.
2. I play as usual but try heavier pressure by the time I have my first 2-4 medivacs since he used some resources on inefficient harass (assuming he didn't do much damage, of course). I often get a blind Ghost Academy since Zealots/Archons follow-ups are quite common.
On August 24 2012 00:27 Tenks wrote:
What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP?
I do the same, I usually build a Ghost Academy and get Moebius Reactor but build Ghosts later. I remember Polt going 8 rax MMM on 3 bases with very late Ghosts, constantly pressuring with a high Medivac count, dropping, dodging Storms, etc. Ghosts become mandatory when your opponent has too many HTs (or Archons), though.
On August 24 2012 05:23 kollin wrote:
Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push?
You should not allow him to expand and tech Colossi freely after a failed 4g. Even if he does not commit much, 5 rax gives you lots of Marines, so pressure back with your Marines squad and you should force him to slow down.
On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank.
I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out?
The way you do it is OK. If you feel safe to delay Tanks a bit, you can build one or two Reactors for Barracks with your Factory and/or Starport before swapping them for Tanks/Medivacs.
|
On August 24 2012 18:37 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote:
I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank.
I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out? The way you do it is OK. If you feel safe to delay Tanks a bit, you can build one or two Reactors for Barracks with your Factory and/or Starport before swapping them for Tanks/Medivacs.
Thanks man, this is definitely going to help me out. As I dont feel like I need tanks as early as I usually get them. :D
|
United States2186 Posts
On August 20 2012 22:43 DocHolliday wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:02 teamamerica wrote:
I have some questions about all matchups. I'm low masters NA terran, prolly gonna drop to diamond. A lot of my questions I think might not have a objective answer for what's best, so I'm just asking your opinion.
1) Is Thorzains TvT build viable in higher leagues? The build order is roughly (or at least my bastardization of it is)
-1rax fe
-2nd rax
-double gas (2 in each gas)
-scv that builds 2nd rax builds 3rd rax
-when 2nd rax finishes, reactor on it + tech lab on 1st rax for combat shields (and stim instant cs finishes)
-3rd rax gets reactor
-engi bay around 6:30 (+1 when it finishes, turrets if scouting dictates)
-factory sometime around now (I get it after engi bay when I can afford).
-when I start factory, 3 into each gas + take 3rd gas at my natural.
-reactor on factory, starport
-swap starport onto reactor, factory gets its own tech lab.
-after that I, in no particular order, add a 3rd base, move out on map, add 2nd factory onto tech lab from barracks after 5rax, and just play out a marine-tank game. Hi, i don't mean to offer unwanted advise but I play this build every time at master level on EU, and I would still say it is very viable. Just some points I have on the build (btw the build you listed is all correct afaik). If you scout opponent is going gasless expand, 9 times out of 10 they are doing the standard 3 rax, double refinery tech up to medivacs. I'm pretty sure thorzains tvt build is more optimized than this so you should have a slight edge. But the main thing I do when ive scouted no gas from opponent is play the thorzain build a little greedier (i normally still do the 6.30 scan from 2nd orbtal just to be sure he isn't going straight to banshee or something): - after putting down the 2nd reactor on rax i immediately put 3 on each gas - get fac when at 100 gas - double engi bay - 3rd refinery (3 on) then you should be able to start +1 weapons and armour and stim at the same time (+1 and stim will finish very close to each other). You will have to wait about 15 seconds after fac finishes to get starport but it doesn't delay it to much. Around the important 10 minute mark you should be similar in marine/scv count (i'm usually little bit higher in marine count, but not sure how much of this is down to build vs my/opponent macro) but importantly you will have +1 armour aswell. if you both engage at the 10min push as long as you keep an eye on making sure your upgrades are done you will come out on top, and usually get a good chance to take out some scvs at his natural if you pushed near his base or middle of map. like you said in your post, normally follow this all up with 3rd cc, 2 extra rax , fac + armoury for instant 2/2 and just go into normal marine tank production. hope this is of some help. I don't mean to interrupt your thread Ver, if a problem just let me know and I'll edit out post.
It's not a problem, though I do want to point out that double ebay is not really viable in most situations, as it delays your tanks too much (assuming you get an armory and 2/2, but if you don't then it's illogical in the first place). If you are 3/1/1 and making 3rd cc with double ebay, they'll just kill you with a dedicated 4 rax/2 fact before you reach 2/2.
On August 21 2012 00:55 phidget wrote:
I'm a diamond league Terran, I've switched from Protoss this last month and just love Terran play style due to its non standard build orders etc. I almost always 1 rax fe into 3 rax and play pure bio vs zerg. My typical losses involve Zerg going pure ling or heavy ling investor in the mid late game into ultra. What should I do when they have about 100+ lings? Take fast third and upgrade up + drop? I've heard of going mmm with hellion is good vs this but honestly my 2 base timings just get demolished by mass ling and then they either double expand or go to hive tech and beat me late game. Thoughts?
2 base timings of any sort are very bad against competent Zergs nowadays because they will simply scout it with jetpack overlords, get many drones on 3 base, and hold it with queens + ling/bane/roach. For fighting marine/medivac vs mass ling only, you want to use the terrain properly to reduce ling surface area, which means putting the marines up against a cliff, or behind the mineral line/geysers, etc. For examples of this, look at all of Polt's TvZ's, especially his games vs TLO, from the ASUS winter he won.
On August 21 2012 00:00 kollin wrote:Ver would you be willing to release a mech replay pack for this thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355261I know this isn't a strategy related question but reading through here it seems you do play mech sometimes, so it would be really useful to players just getting into it.
Maybe, after i play a bunch of games in the new patch. I've been playing mostly bio lately as mech is really frustrating and inferior. I played a lot of mech last MLG but MLG has never released the replays 
On August 21 2012 00:55 phidget wrote:
I'm a diamond league Terran, I've switched from Protoss this last month and just love Terran play style due to its non standard build orders etc. I almost always 1 rax fe into 3 rax and play pure bio vs zerg. My typical losses involve Zerg going pure ling or heavy ling investor in the mid late game into ultra. What should I do when they have about 100+ lings? Take fast third and upgrade up + drop? I've heard of going mmm with hellion is good vs this but honestly my 2 base timings just get demolished by mass ling and then they either double expand or go to hive tech and beat me late game. Thoughts?
Well 2 base timings are rather bad against Zerg in general. They are not unplayable but if the Zerg knows what they are doing (not always the case at pro level) they will flop. Thus I first suggest you change builds. Also pure bio is a very poor option and requires you to vastly outplay your opponent, which naturally makes it an inferior choice.
With marine/medivac on the map against mass ling, you want to put your units in small choke points like against a cliff, or between the geyser and min line, to reduce ling surface area, and pick up when they get a full surround. So long as they don't have banes or fungal they actually have a very difficult time engaging. Polt's ASUS run half a year ago or so featured some really good terrain movement with this kind of situation, particularly his games vs TLO.
On August 21 2012 06:27 jinx1281255 wrote:
Ver,
In TvP, how many different hot keys do you use when microing marines, mauraders, medivacs, vikings and ghosts? How do you have them setup? Should I be using more than 3 seperate control groups for this specific combination of units? Against A protoss opponent that is going high templar off 2 base, what is a standard time for me to expect storm to finish?
Lastly, do you recommend waiting on rax add-ons until I scout tech path of toss player? (for initial 3 rax off of 1RaxFE) I am trying to figure out whether going double gas and double techlab is a good idea to get stim and combat shields (+ earlier factory, and upgrades) simultaneously for a 9:45 push with +1, or whether this is a bad thing to do when not sure of toss tech path. Also, what is the best time to hit a toss going for double forge upgrades and colossi off 2 base? Or, should I just expand instead of attacking?
You need 2 hotkeys at a mimum. 1 for marine/marauder/medivac, 1 for ghost, 1 for viking. You can potentially have another for medivacs, and yet another for dividing the bio force into two.
You should always be making ebay/fact before addons unless you do thorzains build which gets 1 reactor earlier. You can do that but it becomes quasi-allin because your +1 is delayed and that's more important to rush than combat shields. If they double forge + colo they are very vulnerable to drops, so really focus on sniping observers, and they also can't attack you for a certain amount of time, so yes, expanding is very good here. You should prioritize your own upgrades (armory started asap with second ebay)
Honestly the storm question is very difficult and something that vexes me a lot. I don't really have an answer for this, as a lot depends on variables you cannot see. But if you see multiple templar and no archons, expect storm.
On August 21 2012 04:08 tjuggx wrote:
What would be the "best" composition in TvP terran perspective ? I have so much trouble when the charg/archon/storm/colo all come into play ;( i feel that even if i have a few viking per colossus, handful of marauder, medivacs and like 5-8 ghost + of course marines , i get rolled over from storm / chargelots even if i get rid of the colossus ;/
You didnt want replays posted in this thread but is it really just the micro that is messing me up cause i feel i have the right composition afterall.. How should i effectively use ghosts cause they really are my weakest link
The "standard" composition is marine/some marauders/mass ghost/medivac + vikings depending on their colossus count. You want to slowly mass as many ghosts as possible over time. Usually players will try to keep a couple marauders in front to absorb charge, then tank with ghosts while pulling marines back to kill zealots. Then the ghosts will retreat once they are under colossus shots and the entire line will engage. If you do not have many ghosts then typically you will simply let the vikings shoot, preferably from a cliff, while kiting far away with your bio until the zealots are nearly dead. The ideal way to engage is simply attacking with a wide arc when their units are not in proper formation. For example, Taeja vs Younghwa on Daybreak, where Taeja attacks Younghwa at the 4th and wins easily because 3 colossus cannot shoot due to being cramped in between a pylon and nexus.
If you want to win a 3 base+ fight you must stop them from landing devastating storms. This means first, scanning and killing observers, and usually sending a few ghosts slightly ahead of your army to emp when the Protoss is still moving and clumped. You win the battle automatically if you kill off their observers and cloak your ghosts, because they do a lot of unstoppable dps and you can then emp their entire army.
The ultimate composition is marine/marauder/ghost/medivac + bc/viking if you can somehow get it. If you do manage to acquire this, then you lead with emps, then kite backward with bio while letting the viking/bc sit over and kill everything. Then when your bio killed the zealots you return and mop up the stalker/archon. Ryung vs Tassadar and Killer on Daybreak is one of the few examples of this.
On August 21 2012 04:24 ViceRoyce wrote:
How to deal with colossus phoenix composition?
Bio/ghost/double starport viking. Don't bother dropping, just play defensively til 200/200. In battle you need to emp the phoenixes and have the vikings focus fire the colossus. You will win the big battles very easy as he'll have so much wasted gas in phoenixes that don't do anything. Hence why nobody does this anymore.
On August 21 2012 04:51 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
SO if I understand
tvz: you think that the best way to fight zerg is to harass them with something like (hellion-banshee) take a fast third and make a big fight at the 4th of the zerg.¨
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 4th of the zerg to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage))
tvp: on a map where the third is hard, make 5 rax before third and pressure the third of the toss.
(is it true that the terran need to stop the 3th of the protoss to win? or maybe not need but its the best plan to get the advantage)
@TvZ- Yes, that summary is more or less correct. Harass can be good depending on if they don't have any way to stop your vikings from clearing the air, but in general you don't want to over harass as your main army, which will win or lose the game, will be too weak. You want to force them to fight off creep somehow, which will either be somewhere in the middle or outside their 4th on most maps. If you can force them to fight 2 lair army battles off creep, you should be far enough ahead that you can win rather easily.
@TvP- Terran doesn't need to stop the 3rd of the Protoss, though winning vs 2 base P is obviously preferable. If they have good defense and the map is hard to drop on that's usually not an option though. Lategame TvP is playable so long as they don't make warp prisms. You need to rely on mass ghost armies and winning every battle, killing an expo, then retreating to heal up before going back and slaughtering them again. You can gain a large army supply advantage by making extra orbitals then sacking scvs.
On August 21 2012 04:52 Gyro_SC2 wrote:
Ver do you have the feeling that terran can;t win vs a good zerg in lategame?
I think Terran is at a large disadvantage once the Zerg gets hive, as they become more cost efficient than you with little trade off. You can still win, but it relies on the Zerg being bad and you playing almost perfectly.
If however, you can stall for an unbelievably long length of time, you can reach BC/raven which will obliterate anything they can throw at you. See MVP vs Slivko on Metropolis.
On August 21 2012 06:21 babyToSS wrote:
Ty all for this thread. I am mid-diamond level terran and I have a lot of trouble with mid-late game TvZ. I typically do fine upto to the 12-13 mins mark. I always go marine tank and have a pretty decent early to mid-late game. I am able to scout for all-ins or greedy play and react accordingly and quite often enter mid-late game either even or with a lead. The problem comes around the time when zerg starts getting a whole bunch of infestors and a fourth.
Basically at this point I opt for one of the following -
1) Put down lots of raxes and start pushing and dropping the zerg while taking a fourth. Usually a good idea on maps like antiga/ohana or when I have a lead and I know my push will do damage.
How I fail: Due to creep spread and infestors, I have to push slowly with my marine+tank and often the zerg has enough time to tech to ultras. At this point I am in a huge dilemma, if I keep pushing slowly, evetually the zerg overwhelms with a lot of units or counter attacks undefended bases with ultra ling. Against good zergs that split units for dealing with drops, it is also near impossible to retreat as they will scout and rush your retreating army with ultra ling. Basically, I end up losing my army and being denied a fourth base and then eventually get worn down by a remaxing zerg army with Blord tech switch.
2) If I don't push then I put down a fourth, make it a planetary and turtle to viking+HSM raven. I try to take a 5th but usually that is quite difficult against hive tech zerg with bank. In this case, I have trouble with ultra ling infestor. On large maps, counter-attacks are a danger. During the raven+HSM transition I try to drop to contain the zerg but sometimes the zerg simply attacks with maxed out ultra ling infestor. In this attack, (i) I either lose my army+4th and thus lose the game or (ii) I lose my 4th but have most of my army (the best case scenario, I pressure or get a nice window to get raven tech while taking 4th again) or (iii) I trade most of my army for most of zerg's. The (iii) case is the most likely one and in this case, I just die to the remax since I cannot produce fast enough and the raven+viking tech doesn't do anything.
So basically, my question to the pro (or any high masters) terrans is, what is your game plan in mid-late game TvZ? When zerg has a decent infestor count and turtling while going upto 4 and more bases, what do you do? Do you scout for anything specific, have any tech timings etc. Any help would be much appreciated. How do you deal with the above scenarios or is it the case that my mechanics are bad and the above scenarios should never happen?
Your goal is to put them uncomfortable from the start or at least the 10th or 11 minute mark and make it very hard for them to take a 4th base without a fight. If you go banshees, for example, you can park them over the 4th locations and if they don't make muta or corruptor they have a very hard time expanding (See Taeja/Losira from TAC finals on Antiga). In TvZ it's extraordinarily difficult to come back from a disadvantage. Taeja for example, is the only successful TvZer because he never, ever gets behind. If you do end up at a disadvantage, then you have to make a choice: can you attack them with a maxed army before hive tech units are out? If not, take 4th, turtle til 200, get the buildings you need to rapidly tech switch depending on what they do.
For an example of turtling against ultra/ling, watch marineking vs hyun on Entombed from the ipl5 replay pack. Marineking gets way behind from suiciding two armies but just defends a really strong position and Hyun a-moves ultras into something he shouldn't twice. Going ravens against ultra/ling/infestor is not advisable unless you have a lot of excess money or you want to prepare minutes ahead of time for him switching to broods. Seeker missile is totally useless vs ultras and only works somewhat vs ling/bane/infestor. Ghosts are much stronger vs ultra based armies, as his ultra ling cant beat marine marauder if you can kite, which means you just need to disable the infestors. Plus, unlike broodlords, he can't exactly attack your ghosts from range.
For turtling vs broodlords and really rushing raven/viking, the only map you can do that on is Metropolis because of its sheer size and ability to defend easily. MVP did this approach in several games, most notably against Slivko and Nestea in the recent IEM. He used pf's to wall the chokes in order to stop the ultra possibility and just dropped a bunch in hte midgame to keep the Zerg off balance.
|
First of all, thank you very much for creating this thread. My question is regarding 11/11 2 rax. When you do perform this 2 rax push, how many scvs are usually pulled in order make this build effective and be not too all-in(recoverable if the some form of dmg has been done with the initial push)? Also, in terms of transition after 2 rax push is finished, is it better to go fast 3rd cc? Or grab 2nd cc into quick double gas for banshee/helions follow up?
|
On August 22 2012 11:04 dynwar7 wrote:
Hello Ver
Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player.
So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right?
So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech.
Thank you!
Just quoting this in case you missed it Ver
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
