I've read quite a bit recently on how the Korean players (and Terrans specifically) are simply on a higher level than the EU and NA Terrans, whereas Protoss and Zerg are a bit more on equal footing (no doubt you saw the thread). Assuming this is true, part of the reason people accounted for the difference was because they were not afraid to do agressive all-in/cheese builds. Now I'm pretty sure that at lower levels trying to macro will get you farther than all-ins or cheese, but at higher levels of the game (I'm gold league, talking about diamond+ here), would mixing in a lot more reactionary styles or all-ins etc help you improve more than just 1 rax FEing or the equivalent every game? When and why do you add in a non-macro game on ladder or in competition?
[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 7
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Vronti
United States111 Posts
I've read quite a bit recently on how the Korean players (and Terrans specifically) are simply on a higher level than the EU and NA Terrans, whereas Protoss and Zerg are a bit more on equal footing (no doubt you saw the thread). Assuming this is true, part of the reason people accounted for the difference was because they were not afraid to do agressive all-in/cheese builds. Now I'm pretty sure that at lower levels trying to macro will get you farther than all-ins or cheese, but at higher levels of the game (I'm gold league, talking about diamond+ here), would mixing in a lot more reactionary styles or all-ins etc help you improve more than just 1 rax FEing or the equivalent every game? When and why do you add in a non-macro game on ladder or in competition? | ||
happyft
United States470 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 31 2012 00:21 happyft wrote: I understand that marines raw dps is equal to twice that of a marauder on a cost-basis, but if you consider that all protoss units have a natural 1 armor, the dps numbers even out. Add guardian shield on top, and marauders are actually more dps efficient. Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor upgrade Zealot under Guardian Shield (a really unfavourable situation for the Marine). Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 2 damage to armor, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/7 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply for shields, and for armor too when upgrades are even / GS is not factored. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough. | ||
happyft
United States470 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:13 TheDwf wrote: Guardian Shield is usually irrelevant for Charge Zealots because Sentries—if still alive at this point—are often lagging behind and don't always give Zealots +2 armor. But even in this case, 2 Marines are still superior to one Marauder. For example, let's take 2 Marines with 1 attack upgrade against a 2 armor Zealot under Guardian Shield. Stimmed Marines deal 5 damage every 0,57 sec (on average) to shields, and 3 damage to life, so 2 Stimmed Marines have 17,5/10,5 dps while one Stimmed Marauder has 9/7 dps. That's quite a difference of dps per supply. Basically Marines are preferred because Marauders simply don't kill Zealots fast enough. Even though your math is slightly off in that marines do 4 damage to guardian shielded shields, giving a dps of 14/10.5, I see your point is correct -- my math is pretty off in calculating against zealots. I'll update my post accordingly, thanks. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:36 happyft wrote: Even though your math is slightly off in that marines do 4 damage to guardian shielded shields, giving a dps of 14/10.5, I see your point is correct -- my math is pretty off in calculating against zealots. I'll update my post accordingly, thanks. Actually the mistake was for the armor part, I edited my post. I was talking about 1 attack upgrade Marines, so they deal 7 damage, -2 from GS = 5. | ||
happyft
United States470 Posts
On August 31 2012 01:44 TheDwf wrote: Actually the mistake was for the armor part, I edited my post. I was talking about 1 attack upgrade Marines, so they deal 7 damage, -2 from GS = 5. So I crunched the numbers factoring in cooldowns, and all I have to say is damn guardian shield is OP. + Show Spoiler + In comparing marine vs marauder against zealot, marine's are 100% more efficient vs zealots w/o GS, 63% more efficient w/ GS. Against stalker, it's about even w/o GS, and w/ GS marauder is 35% more efficient. Ok, now here's the numbers on how OP guardian shield is: Without guardian shield, 2 marines kill a zealot in 8.3 seconds vs. 1 marauder in 17 seconds. With GS, it takes 13.5 and 22 seconds, a 60% and 30% increase in time! For a stalker the numbers are 8.6 sec / 8.0 sec w/o GS, and 13.5 sec / 10.0 sec w/ GS, a 57% and 25% increase in time. Basically against a 100% marine army guardian shield increases protoss army life by ~60%; one third marauder mix is still a ~50% increase; half marauder mix is a ~45% increase! In essence, guardian shield basically completely negates the bonus attack stim gives. This is probably why 2 base all-inns are so powerful when they hit before stim! Essentially the protoss army has the 60% health benefit from GS without having to deal with the Terran 50% stim attack bonus. | ||
ant885
United States52 Posts
I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something. I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs. | ||
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective. I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something. I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs. Protoss player here. Why does the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 get decimated? It shouldn't. There might be other things going on, such as the protoss player having poor macro or micro. You should be treating a thor all-in the same as a 1/1/1. | ||
ant885
United States52 Posts
On August 31 2012 12:09 rsvp wrote: Protoss player here. Why does the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 get decimated? It shouldn't. There might be other things going on, such as the protoss player having poor macro or micro. You should be treating a thor all-in the same as a 1/1/1. I know you're a protoss player <3 I'm not sure exactly, I think the lack of AOE makes it really difficult to stop with the repairing scvs. The only thing I've been able to stop it with (at 1.2-1.3k master) is stalker/col and kiting mid map, but I have to build the robo bay immediately/blindly and I feel that's risky if it's a faster 1/1/1. But yeah the build is waay easier to execute than defend, so maybe even at midish masters level we don't have the proper control for it, but I've literally seen not one protoss on ladder stop it with standard defense ;\ | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 31 2012 13:10 ant885 wrote: I know you're a protoss player <3 I'm not sure exactly, I think the lack of AOE makes it really difficult to stop with the repairing scvs. The only thing I've been able to stop it with (at 1.2-1.3k master) is stalker/col and kiting mid map, but I have to build the robo bay immediately/blindly and I feel that's risky if it's a faster 1/1/1. But yeah the build is waay easier to execute than defend, so maybe even at midish masters level we don't have the proper control for it, but I've literally seen not one protoss on ladder stop it with standard defense ;\ You'll have to provide a replay, because the standard 5 gate robo response should do the trick. A vast majority of people on ladder just don't know the exact perfect responses to everything. The tank version is just better imo. | ||
Shankapotamus
United States428 Posts
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On August 31 2012 11:02 ant885 wrote: Hey ver, thanks for the thread. I have a question about PvT from the protoss perspective. I was wondering if you knew an ideal response to a 1 base thor/banshee/marine/raven all in with a full scv pull. I realize this is uncommon (which is why I'm asking as I have no games to watch and learn from). A friend of mine does this at ~ 1300 masters and wins like 95% of his tvps with it, only losing if the protoss does some sort of weird 1base or something. I just know the typical immortal 5/6 gate response to 1/1/1 gets decimated. It hits at 12-13 minutes with ~ 35marines/3thors/3-4 banshees/raven/ and about 30+scvs. 12-13 minutes seem really late...I feel like Protoss can even tech to get a few HT opening the 5gate/1robo out from scouting this. Just a few HT will tilt this game heavily on Protoss favor imo | ||
rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On August 31 2012 14:12 .kv wrote: 12-13 minutes seem really late...I feel like Protoss can even tech to get a few HT opening the 5gate/1robo out from scouting this. Just a few HT will tilt this game heavily on Protoss favor imo If you knew that an all-in was coming at 12-13 minutes, then of course you should tech to colossus or charge/HT. However the problem is that you never know when this type of all-in can come - it can hit as early as the 8 minute mark with 1 thor, and every second between then and 12-13 minutes can be the time when he decides to pull the trigger. It's difficult to decide when might be a good time to invest into tech. So yes - it may be a good idea to tech and make additional probes while you're waiting for the attack to come, but do it slowly and don't do it all at once. | ||
.kv
United States2332 Posts
On August 31 2012 14:57 rsvp wrote: If you knew that an all-in was coming at 12-13 minutes, then of course you should tech to colossus or charge/HT. However the problem is that you never know when this type of all-in can come - it can hit as early as the 8 minute mark with 1 thor, and every second between then and 12-13 minutes can be the time when he decides to pull the trigger. It's difficult to decide when might be a good time to invest into tech. So yes - it may be a good idea to tech and make additional probes while you're waiting for the attack to come, but do it slowly and don't do it all at once. when it comes to 1-1-1 it's' what you scout as you probably know xD...so if you see armory and terran making banshees and then ravens...you can kinda assume the 1-1-1 is not hitting at the earliest time possible but rather a later time edit: this just comes from personal experience as I've never encountered a fast 1-1-1 push that had a thor+raven+banshee in their composition | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 22 2012 11:04 dynwar7 wrote: Hello Ver Now....I have a chance to ask a high level Terran about this question. This will be short. In TvT, do you absolutely believe that bio simply cannot win vs mech? In TvT, is mech simply the way to go? I mean, people say to outexpand the meching player, drop like crazy etc....but of cuorse the mech player has 1-2 in-base tanks, sieged, and turret rings and sensor tower....and perhaps 1-2 vikings patrolling drop paths....with all these it is extremely difficult to drop the mech player. So without drops, bio has to go head on with mech, and most of them tim will lose right? So, what do you say about bio and mech in tvt? Also, if I play bio in tvt, marine/tank is also a problem, but dont worry about that, just talk about bio and mech. Thank you! No idea how you came across that notion heh. Too much Artosis? ^_^ A lot depends on the maps, but bio and mech are definitely both winnable from either side. Personally, I find bio vs mech to be the most skill based and even game out of any Terran matchup, and the one I can consistently win at the most. Also note that bio is in general better in broadcasted games where nerves are higher, as mech requires closer to that 'perfect game' while bio is all about exploiting mistakes. Playing as either side really requires that you read the opponent's mentality correctly and are able to predict when and where he will make certain actions. If you let the mech player sit eventually they will have a very strong position that you can't break but if you can find weak points early on enough you can disrupt them so they never get that position and are always reacting to your initiative. Here is one example of my play vs Tarson's mech. This was a pretty simple game without much harassment because he turtled so hard, but that same turtling let me establish a very strong position quite quickly and I still won a head to head fight very handily. In general, pure bio into air is the best plan against mech, otherwise you just want to be going marine/tank if they are also going marine/tank. Pure bio does not do well vs marine/tank. On August 22 2012 09:26 Shankapotamus wrote: Hi, in TvP, I've seen GuMiHo try to get his first 5 marines out of his natural before the opponent's stalker gets to his base so he can go around and snipe stuff while the stalker is caught in the middle of the map or at GuMiHo's natural. How can I do this as well? Does he only do it when he scouts a certain something or is it planned as part of his build? I've tried it a couple of times but I have only been able to dodge the stalker if the protoss was killing my ebay at his natural. I also feel like I can't get 5 marines out, only 4. Could you explain to me how GuMiHo does this and the thinking behind it? Thanks! Do you build a marine after you started your depot ? (18 supply) Also if you 16cc vs cc after 2nd depot you will have a slightly later marine. Those might be missing production times. It also depends on when the Protoss makes their Nexus and whether they chrono the stalker or not. Sometimes you just can't if they want to be aggressive. It shouldn't be your go-to plan but if you see no chronos on gateway and/or very early nexus (around 22 supply for them) you can choose to do it. For an alternative way you can watch a lot of Alive's games; he's probably the best at it and hits all these crazy timings. On August 22 2012 11:17 BeJu wrote: Hey man, thanks a lot for doing this! My question is fairly simple and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been asked yet. I'm a top diamond Terran that really struggles with TvT. 9/10 times I lost to some form of a 1/1/1 but usually it's the marine tank banshee variation popularized by Puma. I 1 rax FE in TvT and it feels impossible to hold most all-ins. What tips do you have on holding the marine tank banshee all-in (and other allins) with a 1 rax fe? Also, do you think there is a better opening to do in TvT? Rax CC -> 2x rax -> medivacs is probably the best TvT opener for learning one single build, but it is also the hardest one to master because you can die in so many random ways if your defense isn't near perfect. A much safer opening against almost any 1 base play is Rax cc double gas depot fact port, getting reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, and making marine/tank/viking. To hold the marine/tank/banshee allin, cloak variant, you just need a turret at each min line and viking/rine ready to thwart it, then have your tanks sieged at your bunker when his attack comes while making sure to have scans on hand if he tries to snipe anything with banshees. You will have the position and vision, and he cannot force it. If the non cloak variant, then it's the same thing except it comes earlier so you need to rush siege mode and On August 22 2012 09:22 Templar. wrote: If you had to tell a player to learn one build order for the tvp + tvz matchups, which ones would you tell them to learn? Preferably something aggressive. (Just starting to play again, was masters level when i quit so my mechanics are generally good.. don't know much for timings anymore though) TvZ: Ghostking's build vs Nestea that I linked earlier, or Taeja's triple cc hellion banshee that he used vs many players (tl opens vs shine/terious, MLG vs Revival). They are rather similar. TvP: The Standard rax cc -> 2 rax double gas factory +1 medivac build, with Taeja's tweak of getting the armory when mostway through +1. Look at most of his TvP's for examples. On August 22 2012 09:14 Qikz wrote: If I'm going mech in TvZ, should I be using vikings or thors to deal with broodlord/corrupter early on? I feel that my vikings always come out too slow to deal with mass corrupter production (maybe I need more starports faster) and thors don't seem to work all that well (although I seem to lose them to other stuff so it might be that). It's pretty much impossible to beat infestor/bl/corruptor without vikings unless they do not have overseers and you can cloak ghosts and emp/snipe their infestors (with bio naturally). Thors are generally rather bad unless they clump up, which does happen a lot with corruptors, but having 1 or 2 is nice to help vikings kite by providing a threat to chasing corruptors. MVP and Supernova's mech games vs Vortix are really good demonstrations of how to fight mech vs low-medium infestor - brood counts. In general vs broodlords the only reason you want ground units is to kill their infestor/queen support and maybe land a couple thor volleys on clumped corruptors. You can't really beat critical max infestor/bl/corruptor/queen with anything but viking/raven; ground units just die. Go watch MVP's IEM replays, especially vs Vortix on Ohana on Nerchio on Cloud Kingdom. He just knows when they will transition to BL's, and whether he has a timing or not. If he has no timing to hit pre-brood, he will immediately add more ports and make raven/viking. You can't rely on a 'spot unit' reaction again Zerg. You just have to know, because air transition has ungodly long prep time. On August 21 2012 12:36 t.Swift wrote: Hey this is a great topic! I think I've hit you on ladder once and got wrecked, but anyway... Tips for holding Blink/Obs all-ins, (particularly common on Antiga or Shakuras) with standard 1 Rax FE or something similar? I always lose to it even when I know it's coming except the games where I'm lucky enough to snipe the Obs, but that's a luxury I think. Stalling for Stim can be really tough without taking a ton of damage. T__T I wrote something earlier on it. You don't want to rely on sniping the obs, you're right on that. The key is keeping your army alive long enough to get a critical mass while picking off isolated stalkers so he cant get that critical mass where he just blinks on top of you and dies. That means sacrificing scvs and making a lot of marauders. Let the scvs take all the damage, it's ok. On August 23 2012 14:58 KawaiiRice wrote: Select gets 2 tech labs and rushes conc over stim if he scouts blink fast enough, which can really hurt them if they blink up and walk a bit (you can catch a stalker or two that go in too deep). Sensor tower is also really useful if you managed to hold the first wave (props 2 avilo) which helps you know where to posture your units. Interesting point about the conc shells. Makes it a lot more awkward for them. I agree sensor tower is good but only if you went ebay due to fear of DTs. Otherwise it just feels like a resource sink if you have to get ebay and then tower instead of faster medivacs. On August 30 2012 01:41 .kv wrote: I can't find this vod...I searched in GomTV's database and the only time they encountered one another is in the team league and Jjakji won in that game. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66854/?set=4&lang= There are two bo3's here (2nd set and final set), watch both. On August 22 2012 11:32 Iron_ wrote: Do you offer 1v1 coaching? If so what times/rates? PM for coaching. On August 23 2012 14:35 Var7 wrote: Big fan of yours Ver - are you streaming these days? Very soon | ||
dynwar7
1983 Posts
I know you have lots of questions in this thread and you are busy, but I apologize, please allow me toask 2-3 more questions. 1. Wel, other than that youtube link, is it possible if you upload 2 or 3 replays of you going mech vs bio? 2. I absolutely love ghosts, the reason I play terran. What do you say about using nukes vs tank lines? I guess that is all. No rush! Thanks again for your help Ver, you are Very Very nice :D | ||
Natespank
Canada449 Posts
What do you think of custom keyboard layouts? I noticed for example that you bind your rax to 7 or 8, so I assume you customized your keys. What do you think of layouts like Darkgrid, Chameleon, the Core, or Artosis's hotkey video from recently? edit: Do you recommend learning a macro cycle, similar to those described in this thread? I've been considering it for some time, but I want to decide whether I will use a custom keyboard setup first so I don't waste the time training my hands on something I won't use. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349484 | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 23 2012 15:07 Thaniri wrote: In TvZ, or rather, a question that could perhaps become very generalized for all matchups.| How do you learn to micro large scale engagements well? Specifically for me, TvZ. How do you set up the attack, how do you micro DURING the attack, then how do you practice it until you are good? I very often net myself various earlier advantages in a matchup, but due to my bad control when it comes to a large scale engagement, I throw away everything I have earned from earlier. I think they are two key ingredients . Aggressive movement attention/commands goes something like this: 1) Load up send out a drop, waypointed to arrive at around hte time your attack will hit the target area (usually the 4th). 2) Attack move the army to the area, macro a round of units 3) Stim a handful of marine/marauder ahead of the rest of your army, generally around 6 or so units. 4) As you are walking forward into a potential danger area, start pre splitting parts of your army to the left and right then attack moving back to the target, while keeping your advance guard ahead. 5) Once you get to creep scan ahead and have your screen force pick it off. Remember the Zerg can't see where your army actually is, so for all he knows, your screen is right in front of the rest of it. 6) Once you see the location of the Zerg's army, start pre splitting your army a lot more and begin spreading and sieging your tanks, depending on when you think he will attack, and make sure to produce another round of units if the timer is almost up. 7) Once the Zerg attacks, stim, do whatever immediate declumping you need to in order to avoid massive fungals. Then target fire banelings and infestors with tanks while pulling some of your bio back and trying to form a concave over their area of attack. Retarget fire with tanks as needed. When all your bio is spread out enough, then attack move towards his army and focus on spreading individual parts. A key ingredient of this is watching pro games very closelessly for micro, preferably streams/fpview or the first person in replays, then practicing it in an isolated setting (micro trainers). For an example of the seeing, my TvZ push micro actually improved a lot after two weeks of playing as Zerg only, because I felt what was annoying to play against and what was easy, and so when I went back to Terran, On August 23 2012 23:48 herMan wrote: This is a really good thread for all Terrans, really deep analysis about strategy compared to the usual stuff. I have a number of questions (I'm a 1300pt Master terran): 1) What is the "correct" composition to get when facing mech play? Am I on the right trail by using MMM with tanks? Usually just a few marines to kill air stuff so mostly marauder tank medivac. 2) What do you do when you face a DT expand play and defend it with slight losses? I usually just try to macro up as greedy as possible. 3) What is you favorite TvT build on Daybreak? 1) bio/medivac/tank or bio/medivac into air both work against mech, it's mostly preference. I think tanks are obnoxious to deal with against mech, as they have air advantage and you have much less opportunity to take advantage of mistakes, but it does make it very awkward for hte mech player at the same time. 2) Try to punish them! DT's cost a lot of gas and many Protoss will try to play greedy after anyway. I think turtling is the wrong option: dts leave the Protoss very weak if it fails. See Marineking vs Huk on Antiga: http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/files/WinterArena.zip 3) 14cc -> 2 rax -> cc (assuming they rax cc/14cc) gas x2 rax ebay 2x fact port fact. If they rax gas or gas first then 3 rax tech as normal. On August 24 2012 00:27 Tenks wrote: What is a good, modern, time to get Ghosts in a standard TvP game where the Toss is going forge/templar tech? From watching various Korean streams it seems Ghost timings are getting later and later. I've never been great with Ghost control so I always delayed their production but I was wondering if in the current meta if rushing bio upgrades with a swarm of medivacs while tearing the Protoss into various directions with drops (ie: sinking your gas into upgrades/dropships instead of Ghosts) is more popular. What are your thoughts on Ghosts now in TvP? It is somewhat a stylistic choice and map dependent but in general you want ghosts sooner than later. You first want your 3rd cc, 5th rax, and double ebay/armory before even considering ghosts. You can't really attack the Protoss beyond a certain point without ghosts, as storm and feedback are just too strong defensively. On the other hand, getting ghosts will limit your mobility and harass potential a good amount, which is why Marineking, an initiative based player, will delay them as long as he can. Usually once you have the above pre reqs and you see templar its worth it to grab the academy and research energy upgrade, but you don't want to start massing ghosts until later on unless you feel the game will be very passive. 4-6 is a good amount for midgame pressure options, as too many will leave you with too small of an army. On August 24 2012 05:06 terrantosaur wrote: Thanks for doing this thread, it is excellent. I have a question about TvT (happy to provide replays if necessary but I don't think it is): I use a build I stole from Ganzi which is basically a 1 rax FE into 3 rax then double gas. He prioritises upgrades so double eng bays follows very soon thereafter. I struggle A LOT vs early siege tank pushes, especially if they have used banshee harrass (there are cloak and non-cloak variants which affect timings slightly). If they keep the banshees alive it is very hard to meet the incoming force in the middle of the map and force repeated sieges to delay his push. So I'm often faced with a siege up outside my natural... So my question: what is the best way to deal with this kind of push? The two choices seem to me to be: a) use a bunker and missile turret at the front to try to delay with scv repair as necessary as long as possible. If you can keep his vision of the high ground limited to his scans then you probably have time to get out medivacs (maybe...); b) pull all scvs, wait for any upgrades that are about to finish and then try to bum-rush him... (this hardly ever works). I've tried adapting the composition slightly by throwing a few marauders into the mix; I've tried stim before combat shield... but often I still lose. I "think" the idea is to somehow hold him off and then go for a base trade using medivacs if you can hold out long enough but I'd welcome the views of an expert. (And of course if there is a replay of a pro game where this happened I'd love to see it...) Thanks again. Is this a 1 base tank push or 2 base? Marauders can be very helpful but it really depends on what you are seeing: Vs 1 base- You need to stall by repairing your bunker long enough for medivacs to come out. Then immediately drop 2 full ones behind his army and cut his reinforcements while floating the factory near his army to know when he unsieges. When both stim/combat are done, you want to pull your nat scvs (or lift into the main if needed), let them take the first tank volley, pre spread your units, and stim forward from 2 sides. Alternatively you can go for the base trade with a double drop and just delay his push as long as possible by forcing a lot of slow sieges, then bring your army from his main back and converge on his push. This is more questionable if the mains are too far apart though. Vs 2 base, rax fact port (such as Bomber vs Keen and Jjakji vs Keen in hte recent up/down matches on Cloud Kingdom). This shouldn't be a problem ,just pull scvs and break it when stim finishes. Getting stim before combat shields is obviously important here. Vs 2 base, 4 rax/2 fact- the key problem here is the double ebay. Double ebay is only possible on a map like Daybreak, though triple cc double ebay is better anyway. There is a reason why the pros don't do double ebay normally: 4 rax/2 fact just smashes it because you have no tanks and it hits before 2/2 is done, and 3/1 cc does well too on smaller maps. In short, don't double ebay. From what I've seen Ganzi only double ebays when he wants to take a risk or feels the need to. It's not a safe/reliable build. On August 24 2012 05:23 kollin wrote: Ver recently I have been using 1 rax fe into 5 rax TvP with varying success. However I struggle against one base plays such as 4 gate, because my tech is so delayed that even though I hold it any form of 2 base colossus push will kill me. Do you had any advice on dealing with this or should I switch to the more standard 3 rax 10 min push? rax cc 5 rax is basically a coinflip, where if they are greedy you will do grave damage, but if they play safe you are screwed, and you will die to random allins because your stim and tech is so late. Definitely not something you want to be doing all hte time. 3 rax stim factory is a much more robust and reliable opening on every map except maybe close position Entombed. On August 24 2012 08:59 psy___ wrote: Master terran, I use polt's TvP opening which is a standard 1 rax CC double rax double gas, with 1 techlab and no addons on the other 2 barracks until starport is made with a standard push when 2 medievacs are done. Btw a tip for terrans is to only put 1 marine in ur bunkers if ur afraid of a 2 base pressure/allin, that way it looks like you have alot more units than you have which might scare the protoss into falling back while if you had all ur untis in the bunkers he could've killed you. https://sc2bc.com/r/2746 Here's a replay if anyone's interested. Any thoughts? Seems fine, though the danger with having no units in your bunkers is that when the gateway allin comes you can't focus fire the sentries with your bunkers and your main units are too far away to do so. If you cant lower their ff count or knock out guardian shield it becomes much harder to hold. On August 24 2012 12:00 ILuMiNaTe wrote: Hey Ver, Do you remember me? We used to talk on battle net about what events you were doing and I would always tell you I was rooting for you? *fanboy status* haha.. Well anyways I really wanted to thank you for doing this thread, its a big help to us terran players out there. I was wondering what you think is the best way to transition out of hellion banshee in tvz to marine tank. I usually switch the starport and fact and put down like 4 or 5 rax, but I feel there has to be a better way to do it. Do you have anything that could help me out? Thanks, ILuMiNaTe Yup I remember, thank you!! There are two main versions to transitioning out of it, and it will also depend on which build you did to get there. In general, the version I feel is best is: After banshees/3rd cc/ double ebay/stim 1 gas at nat fact lifts off, makes another reactor. 4 rax, including one on the open reactor, then 4th gas. Starport and Fact swap. 5th and 6th gases, armory when needed. 3 more raxes and 1 more fact when money comes in. If muta 2 more facts. Alternatively some people start on tanks right away instead of a second reactor, but this makes you more turtlish and lets them spread more creep. On August 24 2012 18:04 ShnAndrei wrote: Hi, I am a former platinum Terran that stopped playing for about 6 months and would like to get back in shape. Was thinking to use the hellion/banshee opening in TvZ, with transition into bio-tank. Could you please recommend me some good replays from which I could learn this build? Thanks in advance! Yup! I highly recommend: Taeja's TL Open games (vs shine and Terious) MVP's IEM games. MVP does go bio in quite a few games. On August 24 2012 18:37 TheDwf wrote: It depends on your opening, or more accurately it depends on the interaction between your opening and your opponent's. When opening 1 rax FE → 3 rax you tech Tanks late because you first dump all your gas into bio upgrades then medivacs. When opening 1 rax FE → 1-1-1 you tech Tanks straight away if you scout one-base pressure or head for Hellions and/or Banshees first if you plan to mech and your opponent went fast expand too (when playing mech, you try to tech Tanks later so you can have more active units such as Hellions and Banshees pressuring on the map). When opening 1-1-1 against 1 rax FE → 3 rax you usually tech Tanks quickly (e. g. after Marine/Hellion elevator or Banshee) so you can defend while you catch up in bio tech; or you use Tanks agressively for further pressure, etc. Yup! I also want to add that tanks in small numbers are not particularly useful, and so if you have a choice it's better to get marine/medivac and get out on the map and have some initiative, as you can still spread and beat tanks in small numbers On August 27 2012 03:51 Striker123 wrote: First of all, thank you very much for creating this thread. My question is regarding 11/11 2 rax. When you do perform this 2 rax push, how many scvs are usually pulled in order make this build effective and be not too all-in(recoverable if the some form of dmg has been done with the initial push)? Also, in terms of transition after 2 rax push is finished, is it better to go fast 3rd cc? Or grab 2nd cc into quick double gas for banshee/helions follow up? 3 scvs for the normal semi-allin version (the 2 producing the rax, and 1 other), 5 scvs if you want to win or die there. See Taeja vs Life on Antiga from TAC, liquid vs Startale LR7. Triple cc is almost always the best followup from any kind of 2 rax. | ||
Rabiatic
Norway33 Posts
I have a question about TvP. I am a top diamond player, and I struggle a lot with 1base openings like 4gate robo warp prism, 4gate blink stalker etc, and I'm wondering what's the best response against these kinds of builds? When I spot 1base play doing 1rax FE, I usually just bunker up my nat, but then they just elevator/blink into my main and I'm screwed. Should I bunker up my main as well? If so, where should I positon my bunkers? And also, when do I get the addons on my barracks, and when do I get up my factory+starport? | ||
Sp4cem4nSpiff
United States46 Posts
How should you handle a base race situation? Should you keep attacking their base, or come back and try to salvage some of your own?? | ||
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