EPT
+ Show Spoiler [About] +
I used to play for Checksix until it disbanded and am currently teamless. I have written many articles, most notably God of the Battlefield, How to Improve, or for SC2 the analysis of Liquid vs Mvp. I spend most of my sc2 time analyzing and am up to date on all major Terran pro games.
Follow me on twitter to know when I update and other articles come out: @AnalystVer
+ Show Spoiler [Guidelines] +
-Some good questions you should be asking for improvement include: which builds are good for my situation, how to play certain strategies, and what vods/replays are worth watching to learn this or that build.
-Feel free to cite/link pro replays/vods
-Please don't post your replays. It's simply not time efficient to go through them one by one.
-Protoss and Zerg players are welcome to ask about ZvT or PvT as well.
-You'll get back what you put in.
General:
TvP:
+ Show Spoiler [1. Punishing Greedy Protoss] +
On August 19 2012 17:31 graNite wrote:
What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame?
In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this:
After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier...
drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare.
Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
What is a good way to punish a greedy protoss in the midgame?
In Tvp, many of my laddergames go like this:
After we both established a second base, the protoss quickly takes a third, techs to everything (doubleforge and robo or twilight) and i can not find a way to punish this greedy play instead of playing even greedier...
drops get shut down way too easy because he expects me to do it and because the maps are so big nowadays that he has enough time to prepare.
Also, what is a good way to deal with early ht tech? I can not tech to ghosts before i take a third base because i need medivacs because i need stimpack.
thanks
If the Protoss is shutting down your drops easily on maps where drops are viable (i,e Shakuras, Antiga, Taldarim) then either they are turtling very heavily (which means you can get a much better econ) or you are not able to snipe any observers. If the Protoss is in the dark about your army movements it's really hard to stop drops without feedback, in particular the quad drop in the main followed by a rally into the natural which MVP killed Parting with on Metropolis.
As for punishing it, yes you definitely can. Supernova, Bomber, and MVP all did builds which killed foreigner protosses as soon as they took a third at this iem. Go look at all their replays (link at bottom). If you want to punish, you always do 5 rax before 3rd cc. The TvP build Bomber did at IEM and Asus is a good example of killing greedy Protosses. He maxes very quickly on 1-1. Taeja vs Genius on Cloud Kingdom from the TL open Taeja won is also a good example of heavy 2 base play.
Templar in general are more defensive, stop drops easily, and make it hard to press into their base even with a supply advantage. The downside is templar have no offensive potential for a long time and the templar player gets slaughtered if he tries to push out across the middle because then he can't land a storm and gets kited all day. See Marineking vs Parting from the KSL Finals on Daybreak for an example of this, or Taeja vs MC on Entombed from Asus. Versus Templar players you definitely want to add a 4th cc very quickly and focus on all your tech upgrades because they can't threaten much. In general you want to add a ghost academy as soon as you get a whiff of templar, because if they have templar and you have no ghosts you can't really threaten/attack much.
+ Show Spoiler [2. Double reactor vs Double tech lab] +
On August 20 2012 07:03 Ver wrote:
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this.
Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech
Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like colo.
It depends. Not many koreans do the double reactor style, it's really only MKP that will use it consistently. Basically, double tech is more flexible and versatile, while double reactor is better versus very specific openings. Essentially:
Vs Colossus -> double tech lab >>> double reactor. double reactor has a terrible game vs this.
Vs fast templar double reactor > double tech
Vs double forge -> double reactor >> double tech
Marauders are better for dropping and raiding than marines except for killing probes. Marines are more cost efficient and exponentially better in straight up fights if the Protoss doesn't have aoe. Marauders are still useful if you have a lot of room to kite though. So essentially it boils down to what you predict the Protoss will do, so it's kind of a coinflip either way. I double reactor on maps where colossus are trash (i,e taldarim) and double tech on most others unless I know they dont like colo.
+ Show Spoiler [3. 5 rax cc vs 3 rax cc & misc Q&…] +
On August 21 2012 03:53 Ver wrote:
@TvP: 'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed.
Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued.
@TvP: 'Better' depends on style and on map. If the map is very defensive then 3 rax cc is better, while on maps with a harder to secure third you want to go with the 5 rax. It also depends on whether you think the Protoss is being greedy and if you can punish it or not. If he plays defensively and you 3 rax cc, you end up ahead, while if you 5 rax and he is defensive, it remains even unless your upgrades are delayed. For example, at this IEM Bomber just 5 raxed every game and bulldozed all the greedy foreigner Protosses when he maxed.
Second starport is a stylistic thing but is safer. I prefer to get it right away, but some players like Taeja will just stay on 1 starport and rely on having really good sense to know exactly when to make vikings. However, if the Protoss does the trick where they just make 1 colo with no range and tech to templar, then it's mostly wasted money. However, having more medivacs early on is really helpful anyway and rather undervalued.
+ Show Spoiler [4.Sniping High Templars] +
On August 19 2012 18:33 ShaneFeit wrote:
How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars?
Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.)
How are you supposed to use snipes against high templars?
Somehow Terrans like Taeja and Bomber are able to always snipe HTs with their ghosts, while players like Kas always got feedbacked versus MC (which is what happens do me.)
Can't really put it in words...it really has a lot to do with feel and knowing the practical range of your ghosts/placement in the army/timing. Basically snipe has longer range but feedback is instant cast, so if they both walk in range then try to kill, templar wins, but if Terran scans ahead and does it from range, he wins. Alternatively, you can lead with emp and use the outer radius of it to hit them, though that isn't as good as it used to be.
TvT:
+ Show Spoiler [1. Best build vs Marine/hellion elevator] +
I'm assuming you mean gas first elevator, but either way you can hold with rax cc double gas depot fact, reactor on rax, tech lab on fact, port. When he drops if you can't stop the elevator then you simply want to keep your forces away while you stall for tank/extra rines. Then you pull 6-8 scvs with your army and just kill his attack. I can't think of any relevant pro game off the top of my head but I've beaten ForGG doing this on close spawn Antiga so I'm positive it works. You can then follow up with a devastating 3 tank/viking/rine attack and siege his natural. You can also do rax cc rax x3 and stop the drop from fully unloading when he elevators but this is trickier (Thorzain vs Polt, Shakuras, the Asus or Assembly Finals which Thorzain won).
TvZ:
+ Show Spoiler [1. Best Mech Build] +
On August 19 2012 13:50 Ver wrote:
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
The most popular mech build is the one Supernova, Kas, and MVP use, which is:
Rax CC -> Reactor Hellion -> Cloak Banshee -> CC -> Fact 2x -> Armory 2x
You have a lot of potential damage from hellion/banshee, you are safe vs allins, and the banshees are very useful in the midgame to stop the Zerg from bullying you around with roaches. The only downside is your upgrades are very late and if they scout and defend correctly you end up behind. If you see very early mass roach, you can get siege mode first, if not get blue flame.
Personally I have always preferred getting an ultra fast armory after the factory finishes to rush +3 attack, thus delaying cloak (or not getting it), with the build otherwise similar.
If you are okay stretching your multitasking then I would recommend making a medivac and viking after the 2nd or 3rd banshee and attempting hellion drops as well.
+ Show Spoiler [2. Bio vs Mech TvZ and how to pressure…] +
On August 19 2012 15:57 Ver wrote:
I think bio is better TvZ for several reasons, though mech is playable. Bio simply stretches the Zerg a lot more and lets you outplay them. Mech really doesn't challenge the Zerg much at all: they have an easy hand and aren't disrupted. Bio also has a small hope of a lategame, whereas with mech you are pretty much screwed if they get broodlords and you don't have an obscene economy. In addition, Bio has small margin of error but mech has none. You don't really get second chances with mech. I personally would mech on certain maps (Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) up until a few months ago, when I had a pair of rather traumatic mech games at MLG Anaheim where I killed 80+ drones against Fuzzy and 111 versus Sheth and still lost anyway because they got to broodlords before I could kill them.
The one plus side of mech, at least for lower levels, is that it requires much less micro than bio to be very effective. For players that struggle with banelings and fungal mech can definitely boost your performance considerably.
As for a gameplan: can never actually deny the Zerg's third if they play it right. You can either do something aggressive and hope they mess up or accept that they will get full three base saturation and do what you can to get on even footing by pressuring and grabbing your own fast third. You have basically two goals with mech:
1) Massacre as many drones as you can and keep poking around with hellions all game long. You want to trade your minerals in hellions for their drones while you build up your tank/thor count, as gas will be your limiting factor and you need to do something to slow down their tech. Hellions are useful for raids the entire game, don't stop doing them ever!
2) Kill them with a 3 (or 4, on larger maps) base, either 2-2 or 3-2 timing attack, before they get broodlords.
If you want to learn how to pressure early on, I suggest watching Kas vs Scarlett on Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom and MVP vs slivko on Ohana
Mech really comes down to killing a lot of drones and keeping your units in a good formation when the battle starts.
I think bio is better TvZ for several reasons, though mech is playable. Bio simply stretches the Zerg a lot more and lets you outplay them. Mech really doesn't challenge the Zerg much at all: they have an easy hand and aren't disrupted. Bio also has a small hope of a lategame, whereas with mech you are pretty much screwed if they get broodlords and you don't have an obscene economy. In addition, Bio has small margin of error but mech has none. You don't really get second chances with mech. I personally would mech on certain maps (Shakuras, Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak) up until a few months ago, when I had a pair of rather traumatic mech games at MLG Anaheim where I killed 80+ drones against Fuzzy and 111 versus Sheth and still lost anyway because they got to broodlords before I could kill them.
The one plus side of mech, at least for lower levels, is that it requires much less micro than bio to be very effective. For players that struggle with banelings and fungal mech can definitely boost your performance considerably.
As for a gameplan: can never actually deny the Zerg's third if they play it right. You can either do something aggressive and hope they mess up or accept that they will get full three base saturation and do what you can to get on even footing by pressuring and grabbing your own fast third. You have basically two goals with mech:
1) Massacre as many drones as you can and keep poking around with hellions all game long. You want to trade your minerals in hellions for their drones while you build up your tank/thor count, as gas will be your limiting factor and you need to do something to slow down their tech. Hellions are useful for raids the entire game, don't stop doing them ever!
2) Kill them with a 3 (or 4, on larger maps) base, either 2-2 or 3-2 timing attack, before they get broodlords.
If you want to learn how to pressure early on, I suggest watching Kas vs Scarlett on Daybreak and Cloud Kingdom and MVP vs slivko on Ohana
Mech really comes down to killing a lot of drones and keeping your units in a good formation when the battle starts.
+ Show Spoiler [3. Best TvZ Openings and how to play t…] +
On August 20 2012 04:46 Ver wrote:
No database to my knowledge. Pros know a lot of the game mechanics internally by feel (intuition) and don't really worry about specific numbers much. When referencing builds to each other pros will typically go 'build x that player y used against player z on this map.' Everyone has to pay attention to the rest of the scene or fall behind. Ultimately in order to figure these things out you simply need to watch a lot of pro replays and vods.
I looked up that build and it's terrible, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays against any Zerg build that takes a fast third you need to land your third by 10 minutes at the very latest, usually earlier. Ghostking's play against Nestea in the GSL quarterfinals on Cloud kingdom is a really good example of this. What Taeja used against Losira and Nestea in IPL TAC is much better. Builds on Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis are kind of exceptions though due to the sheer rush distance. Taeja's game against Losira on Antiga is a more practical demonstration on most maps, though please keep in mind he only did that because Losira showed 3 hatch before pool with no gas, which completely rules out early timings and thus let Taeja be more greedy.
Regardless, hellion or hellion/banshee builds are almost required in TvZ for a number of reasons, the main question is when you get your cc's and upgrades. Taeja is really the only player who is successful with pure bio openings (the build he used against Annyeong on Antiga vs Prime in TAC for example). However, against a better Zerg who can spread creep faster the build wouldn't work nearly as well and is also hellishly hard to play. Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Any non fast 3 orbital build is a gimmick more or less that is probably not worth practicing. 4 orbital builds have a nice feel to them but only work if you are sure the Zerg can't do an early allin (i,e very quick 3rd).
Zergs don't really have a weakness because any weak moment they have you will still have to power through tons of creep to threaten anything. The only real time you can press quickly over creep and land a killing blow is when they are nearing the point of reaching ultras or broods, but that requires a huge amount of game sense and guess work to discern correctly. Usually the best option in TvZ is to keep pressing the 4th and force them to fight off creep and get very good trades. The more you can force them to fight off creep with lair armies the better.
As for how aggressive you can be...it's really hard to say and depends entirely on what the Zerg is doing. In general it's worth controlling your watchtower as much as you can and keeping the Zerg blind and uncertain. That really matters a lot. However if you are out on the map early (i,e with first 2 medivacs) you need to make sure you are watching your army closely and pre splitting whenever possible. i,e if you are just sitting at the watchtower and have a moment, spread your army out even if there is no immediate threat. This is the only thing that dissuades the Zerg from bum rushing you. Splitting after they've attacked is already too late.
No database to my knowledge. Pros know a lot of the game mechanics internally by feel (intuition) and don't really worry about specific numbers much. When referencing builds to each other pros will typically go 'build x that player y used against player z on this map.' Everyone has to pay attention to the rest of the scene or fall behind. Ultimately in order to figure these things out you simply need to watch a lot of pro replays and vods.
I looked up that build and it's terrible, you shouldn't use it. Nowadays against any Zerg build that takes a fast third you need to land your third by 10 minutes at the very latest, usually earlier. Ghostking's play against Nestea in the GSL quarterfinals on Cloud kingdom is a really good example of this. What Taeja used against Losira and Nestea in IPL TAC is much better. Builds on Atlantis Spaceship and Metropolis are kind of exceptions though due to the sheer rush distance. Taeja's game against Losira on Antiga is a more practical demonstration on most maps, though please keep in mind he only did that because Losira showed 3 hatch before pool with no gas, which completely rules out early timings and thus let Taeja be more greedy.
Regardless, hellion or hellion/banshee builds are almost required in TvZ for a number of reasons, the main question is when you get your cc's and upgrades. Taeja is really the only player who is successful with pure bio openings (the build he used against Annyeong on Antiga vs Prime in TAC for example). However, against a better Zerg who can spread creep faster the build wouldn't work nearly as well and is also hellishly hard to play. Tank openings are not even worth worrying about. Any non fast 3 orbital build is a gimmick more or less that is probably not worth practicing. 4 orbital builds have a nice feel to them but only work if you are sure the Zerg can't do an early allin (i,e very quick 3rd).
Zergs don't really have a weakness because any weak moment they have you will still have to power through tons of creep to threaten anything. The only real time you can press quickly over creep and land a killing blow is when they are nearing the point of reaching ultras or broods, but that requires a huge amount of game sense and guess work to discern correctly. Usually the best option in TvZ is to keep pressing the 4th and force them to fight off creep and get very good trades. The more you can force them to fight off creep with lair armies the better.
As for how aggressive you can be...it's really hard to say and depends entirely on what the Zerg is doing. In general it's worth controlling your watchtower as much as you can and keeping the Zerg blind and uncertain. That really matters a lot. However if you are out on the map early (i,e with first 2 medivacs) you need to make sure you are watching your army closely and pre splitting whenever possible. i,e if you are just sitting at the watchtower and have a moment, spread your army out even if there is no immediate threat. This is the only thing that dissuades the Zerg from bum rushing you. Splitting after they've attacked is already too late.
+ Show Spoiler [4. Finding a TvZ opening] +
Is there a way to go straight up into Marine-Tank-Medivac timing pushes instead of Hellion-Banshee after fax expanding? I really don´t like the big micro part in the earlygame, while i building up my base, but i don´t want to be only defensive until midgame. I´m currently experiementing with Combat Shield timings aggainst Zerg´s 3rd base. I really like to play TvZ, because i understand the matchup quite well, but i´m currently lost because i can´t find or create on opening that´s suits my style.
@TvZ: Any combat shield timing is a gimmick and automatically bad against someone good. Those kind of attacks just don't work anymore because they get scouted and queens + units stomp on them. Unless you go hellion/banshee you essentially have to be defensive into the midgame. Hellion/banshee builds are better than marine openings, but if you really don't like them, then I recommend Taeja's bio openings. On larger maps, the one he used against Nestea in the TAC grand finals works. On more normal maps, look at his TAC game vs AnnyeongPrime on Antiga.
Alternatively, you can do Reality's build which he used against Yugioh in the WCS qualifiers on Ohana (14 cc -> 2 rax -> cloak banshee with constant marine production -> cc).
PvT:
+ Show Spoiler [1. Holding early Terran pressure] +
On August 19 2012 09:57 Mr. Bojangles wrote:
Oh wonderful that you put the option for other races to ask the question about Terran. I'm a midish Diamond league Protoss player. I've recently got beat by one of those 7 min marine/maruader pushes (not flat out, but it's what did the dmg to put me behind). The Terran did a FE and I responded with a 1 gate fast expand of myself. What I'm really confused about is finding out how it's coming. It just seems like the Terran scans, if they see units they don't push, if they don't, they push. Is it really that simple? Or is it more so a predetermined thing? If it's predetermined, how can I scout it before it comes (such as, is there any thing in his build that may give away the 7min push? If so, what is it?)
The only, non allin, marine/marauder attack that can hit that early from rax cc is a 3 rax 1 tech lab, but if you are doing a standard build (stalker expo, gas gate gate robo) you should be perfectly fine and come ahead if they actually try to press the attack. Pros almost never do this because it has a lot of risk and almost no upside, except maybe in non-tournament spawns like horizontal on Entombed which is unrealistic anyway. It's a huge risk for the Terran, particularly on a map like Antiga with the high ground and hidden space around the watchtower. If the Terran moves out like that and the Protoss allins, the Terran automatically loses the game unless they retreat very early. If the Terran is scanning you that early, you can already consider yourself ahead as it does mess with their build a lot.
This really shouldn't be much of a threat unless you are cheating on units to try and get some kind of tech/nexus up faster. I would check on your build and make sure you are executing it correctly before looking elsewhere. If you feel you are macroing correctly, then perhaps try chronoing warp gate an additional time and checking what you are warping in. Stalkers hold any marine based attack very easily, while you want to warp in sentry/zealot otherwise.
You can have an idea its coming based on what your scouting stalker(s) sees. You can control the watchtower on most maps versus pure marines, and if you see more than one marauder moving out very early, you should be wary. Terrans typically only want marines for the first several minutes of production because they need gas for stim, a reactor, factory, and +1.
Oh wonderful that you put the option for other races to ask the question about Terran. I'm a midish Diamond league Protoss player. I've recently got beat by one of those 7 min marine/maruader pushes (not flat out, but it's what did the dmg to put me behind). The Terran did a FE and I responded with a 1 gate fast expand of myself. What I'm really confused about is finding out how it's coming. It just seems like the Terran scans, if they see units they don't push, if they don't, they push. Is it really that simple? Or is it more so a predetermined thing? If it's predetermined, how can I scout it before it comes (such as, is there any thing in his build that may give away the 7min push? If so, what is it?)
The only, non allin, marine/marauder attack that can hit that early from rax cc is a 3 rax 1 tech lab, but if you are doing a standard build (stalker expo, gas gate gate robo) you should be perfectly fine and come ahead if they actually try to press the attack. Pros almost never do this because it has a lot of risk and almost no upside, except maybe in non-tournament spawns like horizontal on Entombed which is unrealistic anyway. It's a huge risk for the Terran, particularly on a map like Antiga with the high ground and hidden space around the watchtower. If the Terran moves out like that and the Protoss allins, the Terran automatically loses the game unless they retreat very early. If the Terran is scanning you that early, you can already consider yourself ahead as it does mess with their build a lot.
This really shouldn't be much of a threat unless you are cheating on units to try and get some kind of tech/nexus up faster. I would check on your build and make sure you are executing it correctly before looking elsewhere. If you feel you are macroing correctly, then perhaps try chronoing warp gate an additional time and checking what you are warping in. Stalkers hold any marine based attack very easily, while you want to warp in sentry/zealot otherwise.
You can have an idea its coming based on what your scouting stalker(s) sees. You can control the watchtower on most maps versus pure marines, and if you see more than one marauder moving out very early, you should be wary. Terrans typically only want marines for the first several minutes of production because they need gas for stim, a reactor, factory, and +1.
+ Show Spoiler [2. Improving with Nexus 3 gate timing] +
[QUOTE]On August 19 2012 16:27 Ver wrote:
[QUOTE]On August 19 2012 14:52 Kommatiazo wrote:
BACKGROUND: I'm a Platinum Protoss and I've been really trying to do the same openign agaisnt Terrans everytime because I'm trying to work it out to a place where it will be safe against everything and still strong enough to win me the game (maybe thats obvious
). I got my opening from watching a Day9 daily on PvT openings, then from studying the Protoss in question's (SaSe) other replays to get extra info not covered in the daily.
Opening BO:
+ Show Spoiler +
3 chronos on probes as available
9 pylon
12 gate
15gas/pylon
18 Cy Core
20 gas (only two in each gas)
Zealot x 2, Sentry x 2 out of first gate (Everything rallied to watchtowers/just outside T's ramp/preparing for a push at least)
First zealot used to scout, if T has expanded, continue as planned, if on one base still, drop robo ASAP and turtle until ob scouts)
22 pylon
Warp Gate (3 chronos)
Pylon
2 more gates
(When 2nd sentry finishes) Stalker (1 chrono)
27 Nexus
(all chronos on probes now, CONSTANT PROBE PRODUCTION)
Add tech (robo/more gates) during pressure reactively, earlier if pressure fails or BO counter scouted, etc etc
THE POINT OF THIS POST: I wil lay out my gameplan/noob assumptions/meta/tactics on the table with nothing held back. If you (or another extremely generous Terran that this topic is geared towards, seriously, you are a BOSS for starting this thread, I hope it grows really quickly) would be so kind as to rip it apart, tell me where I'm totally wrong, totally smart, or just plain confused on stuff that would be GREAT!!! Obviously I'm talking the stuff specific to interaction with Terrans (I don't expect you to correct protoss-y stuff.
So basically, my gameplan is to A) survive 1 base attacks that hit <7:00 B)Punish early expands with 7-8:00 push C.1)KILL HIM C.2)Do some (typically econ) damage, then contain until 9:30ish when medivacs/stim bio come out then pull back D)win in a macro game with a good economic lead already established and support with WP harass and/or (especially when heavy SCV losses are inflicted early) DT harass
My first zealot walks up his ramp, typically sees a bunker and some Marines + Show Spoiler +(sometimes a maruader or two) at his natural with a CC building/completed/whatever, the earlier he took it the better for my push. at 6:00, then 1 cooldown later I warp in at his front with 1 Zealot and 5 stalkers so my army is 3 Zealots, 2 Sentires, and 5 stalkers just before 7:00. I march up his ramp and micro my units (FF bunkers to prevent repairs or if they are empty to prevent marines from getting in) and try to push in as much as possible. I macro probes and warp in more units as needed depending on how the battle went. Worst case scenario we trade evenly and no econ damage is done (other than some lost mining time on a few scvs or something), best case scenario is (as long as I don't just KILL him) I push him back into his main and deny any expansion until he has medivacs/stim at around the 10:00 mark, either scenario I then pull back onto my colossus tech, constructing 3rd base and bigger army. I get out a warp prism and drop 4 zealots (sometimes DT's/HT's with storm) later on)into his natural mineral line as soon as I see him move out (whether it be a drop or push at the front), and continue to do so every time he is about to pressure me (I keep a vigilant watch on watchtowers/obs at the front) while trying to NOT DIE while I get out colossus tech followed by HT's with storm. When I drop, if econ damage isn't an option I try to snipe EBays>Starports/reactors>Production. I get up to 200/200, 3/3, charge, etc, etc. then engage him on MY terms and hopefully force out a gg. FF's. Storms, and Colossi and my gosu platinum micro are typically enough.
A more specific question that I forgot to mention after writing ^that: Is that 7-8 minute push (3 Z, 2 Sentry, 5 Stalkers) scary against a typical FE build? It was in all the SaSe games I've watched, but that amounts to a total of 10 games or something, and in all those games the T went for greedy FE builds (1 rax->CC was what it was mostly, is that normal against P?) I'm trying to get to masters by the end of 2012, so as I go up the rankings, will this gameplan (especially the early part) continue to serve me well (assuming no drastic shifts in metagame/HoTS stuff)? Is it a silly gambit that is only paying off against plat/diamond T's?
I would say that pro Terrans will rax cc about 80% of their games nowadays. Yes, that nexus 3 gate attack can be pretty threatening to pro players but it's basically a coinflip. If he builds 2 bunkers he is safe and he can potentially hold with 1 too if scvs are pulled. If you don't do damage you are pretty far behind but not horribly lost, and if you realize you can't break him but he pulled scvs, you can just target scvs while chronoing probes and come off ok. You just never want to trade your entire army and not smash his position. All in all I think it's an excellent choice if your goal is simply to get to masters. Honestly I can't see many <masters players holding it.
The most important thing with it is you cannot let the Terran sneak their scv into your base once you've committed to it and you also need to be able to take the watchtower and prevent them from seeing your moveout/forward pylon. It's a pretty awkward build though since you normally go zealot -> stalker -> sentry and with this your stalker is so late, so its harder to deny a scout and you are more vulnerable to certain early timings.
The warp prism idea is excellent and I cannot emphasize how important that is. Almost none of the non-kespa pro players do it yet it is so powerful.
The one thing I was concerned about reading your description is where you allocated your attention (80-90% on the early game, with the rest almost an after thought). That attack is not particularly allin, and versus decent players you will most likely not actually kill/cripple them with it if they have some kind of experience against it. If you want to improve you need to have a much more concrete plan in the midgame and focus on that more. I'm guessing that low level players simply can't handle that 3 gate timing if they rax cc but once you go up in level people will be more capable of holding it. Let me give you some questions you should be considering for the midgame (assuming you come off even from the opening and he does rax cc):
1) How do you defend against the first 2 medivac timing attack/elevator?
2) When do you get forges?
3) When do you get charge/blink?
4) As you are going colossus first, how do you stop them from dropping you to death? Because you are making a warp prism, how many observers can you squeeze out? Are you max chronoing the robo?
5) When do you take your third? Do you know the difference in Terran play between the third cc off of 3 barracks and starport and more heavy 2 base 5 rax/medivac before 3rd cc and how to react to each?
6) When do you stop making colossus? When is the templar transition? When do you start remaking colossus and adding a second robo?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On August 19 2012 14:52 Kommatiazo wrote:
BACKGROUND: I'm a Platinum Protoss and I've been really trying to do the same openign agaisnt Terrans everytime because I'm trying to work it out to a place where it will be safe against everything and still strong enough to win me the game (maybe thats obvious
). I got my opening from watching a Day9 daily on PvT openings, then from studying the Protoss in question's (SaSe) other replays to get extra info not covered in the daily. Opening BO:
+ Show Spoiler +
3 chronos on probes as available
9 pylon
12 gate
15gas/pylon
18 Cy Core
20 gas (only two in each gas)
Zealot x 2, Sentry x 2 out of first gate (Everything rallied to watchtowers/just outside T's ramp/preparing for a push at least)
First zealot used to scout, if T has expanded, continue as planned, if on one base still, drop robo ASAP and turtle until ob scouts)
22 pylon
Warp Gate (3 chronos)
Pylon
2 more gates
(When 2nd sentry finishes) Stalker (1 chrono)
27 Nexus
(all chronos on probes now, CONSTANT PROBE PRODUCTION)
Add tech (robo/more gates) during pressure reactively, earlier if pressure fails or BO counter scouted, etc etc
THE POINT OF THIS POST: I wil lay out my gameplan/noob assumptions/meta/tactics on the table with nothing held back. If you (or another extremely generous Terran that this topic is geared towards, seriously, you are a BOSS for starting this thread, I hope it grows really quickly) would be so kind as to rip it apart, tell me where I'm totally wrong, totally smart, or just plain confused on stuff that would be GREAT!!! Obviously I'm talking the stuff specific to interaction with Terrans (I don't expect you to correct protoss-y stuff.
So basically, my gameplan is to A) survive 1 base attacks that hit <7:00 B)Punish early expands with 7-8:00 push C.1)KILL HIM C.2)Do some (typically econ) damage, then contain until 9:30ish when medivacs/stim bio come out then pull back D)win in a macro game with a good economic lead already established and support with WP harass and/or (especially when heavy SCV losses are inflicted early) DT harass
My first zealot walks up his ramp, typically sees a bunker and some Marines + Show Spoiler +
If I see he HASN'T expanded then I'll check up his ramp, it USUALLY is walled off but I generally assume scary stuff like 1-1-1 cloaked banshees or nuke rush or something and pull back and cower until I get my robo up (I drop it ASAP when I see a non-expand build) and an obs in to scout for reals
A more specific question that I forgot to mention after writing ^that: Is that 7-8 minute push (3 Z, 2 Sentry, 5 Stalkers) scary against a typical FE build? It was in all the SaSe games I've watched, but that amounts to a total of 10 games or something, and in all those games the T went for greedy FE builds (1 rax->CC was what it was mostly, is that normal against P?) I'm trying to get to masters by the end of 2012, so as I go up the rankings, will this gameplan (especially the early part) continue to serve me well (assuming no drastic shifts in metagame/HoTS stuff)? Is it a silly gambit that is only paying off against plat/diamond T's?
I would say that pro Terrans will rax cc about 80% of their games nowadays. Yes, that nexus 3 gate attack can be pretty threatening to pro players but it's basically a coinflip. If he builds 2 bunkers he is safe and he can potentially hold with 1 too if scvs are pulled. If you don't do damage you are pretty far behind but not horribly lost, and if you realize you can't break him but he pulled scvs, you can just target scvs while chronoing probes and come off ok. You just never want to trade your entire army and not smash his position. All in all I think it's an excellent choice if your goal is simply to get to masters. Honestly I can't see many <masters players holding it.
The most important thing with it is you cannot let the Terran sneak their scv into your base once you've committed to it and you also need to be able to take the watchtower and prevent them from seeing your moveout/forward pylon. It's a pretty awkward build though since you normally go zealot -> stalker -> sentry and with this your stalker is so late, so its harder to deny a scout and you are more vulnerable to certain early timings.
The warp prism idea is excellent and I cannot emphasize how important that is. Almost none of the non-kespa pro players do it yet it is so powerful.
The one thing I was concerned about reading your description is where you allocated your attention (80-90% on the early game, with the rest almost an after thought). That attack is not particularly allin, and versus decent players you will most likely not actually kill/cripple them with it if they have some kind of experience against it. If you want to improve you need to have a much more concrete plan in the midgame and focus on that more. I'm guessing that low level players simply can't handle that 3 gate timing if they rax cc but once you go up in level people will be more capable of holding it. Let me give you some questions you should be considering for the midgame (assuming you come off even from the opening and he does rax cc):
1) How do you defend against the first 2 medivac timing attack/elevator?
2) When do you get forges?
3) When do you get charge/blink?
4) As you are going colossus first, how do you stop them from dropping you to death? Because you are making a warp prism, how many observers can you squeeze out? Are you max chronoing the robo?
5) When do you take your third? Do you know the difference in Terran play between the third cc off of 3 barracks and starport and more heavy 2 base 5 rax/medivac before 3rd cc and how to react to each?
6) When do you stop making colossus? When is the templar transition? When do you start remaking colossus and adding a second robo?[/QUOTE]
