EPTAlso can you post a TvZ build this match up is so annoying.
[!] Pro Terran Strategy Q/A - Page 11
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BOJINKINS
Canada13 Posts
Also can you post a TvZ build this match up is so annoying. | ||
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RaAj
Australia12 Posts
I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly: Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ. For TvT/Z I'd like bio transitions As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense). Thanks. | ||
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LionsFist
Australia164 Posts
On September 12 2012 21:48 RaAj wrote: Hi, I am a Zerg player switching to Terran, and i was womdering what the general most standard flow for each matchup was e.g. ZvP 14 pool 16 hatch drone hard 3 gas at 6:30, if toss pressures > roaches and lings, if not pressuring > tech to lair build up on upgrades add to infestor count and turtle with spines while going to brood lord tech expand when going dry aswell as for more gas income. So here is my question exactly: Can anyone give me a general flow of each game like I said above for TvT, TvP, TvZ. As the flow is much easier to understand with the Zerg race with how their macro mechanics work (droning till good amount and maybe tech while doing so then mass units and tech hard once at the 3 base Z drone count, of course units to defend if pressure is detected. Just using the flow of ZvP to show how easily understandable it is in its general sense). Thanks. Hey RaAj, As a Terran player who offraces as Zerg, I think I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that Terran builds are ridiculously 'fixed', compared to Zerg, or even Protoss for that matter. Zerg always has that aspect of reactivity in their game. You don't really have a fixed build order. You build the tech structure and then decide on what you need army wise when you scout their build. This is a positive and a negative. Terran on the other hand, you start with a fixed build really. You have a build in mind when you enter a game, you only make adjustments if you scout something unexpected (all-ins, unexpected tech paths such as void ray/starport heavy play in TvP). Trying to go for a jack-of-all-trades setup as Terran is almost certainly a weaker setup, as you can't tech switch between setups easily at all, while your non-Terran opponent can. This comes because of the way obviously the race produces units, where you have to decide ahead of time what army is building, whereas the Protoss can build reactively from gates, and the Zerg have the 1 production structure. I'll try to give my best example of what you're asking for anyway. TvT: Strangely this seems to be the most reactive based matchup, and the play starts early. 1/1/1 allows flexability, with banshee harass, blue-flame drops, tank contains, drop based play, or viking massing. This means you can generally defend to whatever your opponent is going if they're going 1-base, or apply pressure if they're early expanding. Early expand builds obviously try to gain an economic edge, at the expense of any ability to pressure early. Mid-game usually transitions to tank-heavy game play, with heavy emphasis on air control (stopping drops, viking wars over tank range issues, banshee issues). Map control and space control are two of the most important points of this part of the game. If an end-game is reached, usually it transitions into either thor/tank focus with whatever mineral sink you want, mass infantry with many drops and ghost nukes for tank-mispositioning, or heavy air focus viking/banshee/bc. Thor/tank is easiest transition from mid-game play, heavy infantry is most mobile and capable of finishing the game via getting them out of position, and the air heavy is the strongest army vs army, but suffers from mispositioning. TvP: This is obviously a lot more scout dependent. Fast expand builds are safe here, but you need to scout and be aware of what your opponent can counter with. Do not expect to win if you aren't aware of your opponents strategy here. Highly reliant on getting out your 'next step' as Terran, before they can push an advantage out of their tech. eg. They get colossus, you have no vikings or your starports up? Don't expect to win. They have storm and you have no ghost academy up? You will lose. The game slowly seems to shift into Protoss's favour the longer the game goes, so try to apply pressure early and keep it up all game long. If you're going to expand early, you want to hit a strong timing push at some point to keep the Protoss in check. | ||
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RaAj
Australia12 Posts
On September 12 2012 22:47 LionsFist wrote: Hey RaAj, As a Terran player who offraces as Zerg, I think I understand where you're coming from. The problem with the way you're looking at it is that Terran builds are ridiculously 'fixed', compared to Zerg, or even Protoss for that matter. Zerg always has that aspect of reactivity in their game. You don't really have a fixed build order. You build the tech structure and then decide on what you need army wise when you scout their build. This is a positive and a negative. Terran on the other hand, you start with a fixed build really. You have a build in mind when you enter a game, you only make adjustments if you scout something unexpected (all-ins, unexpected tech paths such as void ray/starport heavy play in TvP). Trying to go for a jack-of-all-trades setup as Terran is almost certainly a weaker setup, as you can't tech switch between setups easily at all, while your non-Terran opponent can. This comes because of the way obviously the race produces units, where you have to decide ahead of time what army is building, whereas the Protoss can build reactively from gates, and the Zerg have the 1 production structure. I'll try to give my best example of what you're asking for anyway. TvT: Strangely this seems to be the most reactive based matchup, and the play starts early. 1/1/1 allows flexability, with banshee harass, blue-flame drops, tank contains, drop based play, or viking massing. This means you can generally defend to whatever your opponent is going if they're going 1-base, or apply pressure if they're early expanding. Early expand builds obviously try to gain an economic edge, at the expense of any ability to pressure early. Mid-game usually transitions to tank-heavy game play, with heavy emphasis on air control (stopping drops, viking wars over tank range issues, banshee issues). Map control and space control are two of the most important points of this part of the game. If an end-game is reached, usually it transitions into either thor/tank focus with whatever mineral sink you want, mass infantry with many drops and ghost nukes for tank-mispositioning, or heavy air focus viking/banshee/bc. Thor/tank is easiest transition from mid-game play, heavy infantry is most mobile and capable of finishing the game via getting them out of position, and the air heavy is the strongest army vs army, but suffers from mispositioning. Thanks for the information, could you, or any other experienced Terran provide me with builds which sets me up for the mid-game please. Also, I have another question; For each matchup what are the usual timings for my: engineering bay, armory, factory, and starport, for each matchup? Most builds I see only really go up to factory and engineering timings. I'd prefer if you based these timings off of a standard bio composition focussing on macro play. | ||
GTR
51297 Posts
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jdobrev
Bulgaria162 Posts
On September 13 2012 00:01 GTR wrote: 99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army? I was just thinking about asking the same thing | ||
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bmoneyAK
81 Posts
On September 13 2012 02:34 jdobrev wrote: I was just thinking about asking the same thing You need 3 hotkeys for army. I use 1 for MMM, 2 for vikings, 3 for ghosts. First priority is to EMP everything, second is to focus fire the colossi, third is to stim and stutter step. The best scenario is the P having to fight up a ramp where the vikings shoot from the high ground without getting caught by stalkers. Get three vikings per colossus. Perhaps someone can talk about how to know how many ghosts to produce. TLDR, use EMP and viking to neutralize AOE and then P is left with a damaged gateway army that will get steamrolled. | ||
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RaAj
Australia12 Posts
I am wondering, for each MU, what the amount of ghosts should I be going for and, why? I have been wondering this for a while as ghosts are not really used as a DPS unit anymore but rather for EMPs. Also, for each MU when is a good time to start building my ghost academy and how many should I build for each respective MU and should I be making specific barracks to build soley for the purpose of building ghosts or should I just cut production of marauders until I get the optimal amount of ghosts? Thanks. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On September 09 2012 00:16 Sianos wrote: What is your opinion on the Space Wales Solution to TvZ with reapers and medivac? I can tell at a glance it's not made by a pro. Unfortunately making builds is quite difficult and it doesn't seem viable even on the few maps favorable for reapers. On September 09 2012 04:10 UPro-BW wrote: What are good openings for pure Bio TvZ? Taeja vs Sheth on Cloud Kingdom @ Redbull Lan. 3 cc 5 rax factory. But pure bio is not very effective so I would recommend instead Taeja vs Annyeung in liquid/prime TAC on Antiga, which is more reliable. On September 09 2012 05:01 dOraWa wrote: I often open with 1 rax expo into adding 2 additional rax, getting medivacs, then adding tanks in TvT (standard marine tank, basically) My troubles comes when my opponent does an early push with a lot of hellions and ~4-5 tanks, I seem to just get decimated. How do I hold something like this? (last time this happened I looked at the replay and they opened reactor hellion expand, into banshee, into 4 fact, 2 reactor/2 tech lab hellion tank) and they just basically attack moved into me and I died. If I survive, I have too little left/they have too good of a defensive position for me to deny a third which leads to the eventuality of me dying. Horribly. Could you give me some examples of games you have had where you go mech (what they opened with, what you opened with [bio or bio tank]), how you transitioned into fighting the mech army and winning the game? Do you sometimes transition into mech yourself after opening with 3 rax bio? You never transition into mech from bio or vice versa. The 4 fact push you describe is essentially an allin. You beat it by doing three things: 1) Getting some of your units behind his army to cut his reinforcements. If you force him to keep units at home, or better yet, intercept them, you are in a much better spot. 2) Delay his attack by forcing him to keep sieging. 3) Get a massive envelopment, lead with 2 marauders ahead of the rest to absorb fire. It's hard to overstate how much of an effect this has. I just held this on Korea in close spawn Antiga doing the above, which is the worst possible position. If possible drop marines on top of his tanks if his vikings are nonexistent or elsewhere. On September 09 2012 06:30 Spiner wrote: I've beaten Fuzzy with mech after killing tons of drones. Brood lords arent an issue if you just go mass thor viking. You just need to drop a scan/scout for broods then throw down some starports asap and make vikings. I generally don't make too many tanks even if I see mass roach and instead use banshees, the few tanks I have, and hellions to buffer against the roaches. I would say mech is in a much better position to deal with zerg T3 than bio. If he rushes broods before infestors and you can have preempetive vikings out in time, yeah you can win that fight. But as soon as he has infestor/queen you can't actually win with thor/viking anymore cause he'll just infested terran/neural spam you to death while transfusing the broods. MVP's lategame wins with mech all relied upon a heavy tank count to kill the Zerg's queens/infestors, though to be fair MVP never fought a critical mass brood army either. MVP's Metropolis plan is so far the only proven way to reliably beat Hive, which he uses bio for to counterdrop and threaten them in the midgame. Mech just isn't very threatening, can't split outside of one-dimensional hellion drops, and is so gas intensive it means your raven/bc is very delayed. I like mech but it has severe issues  On September 09 2012 07:24 Batcha wrote: Great thread, thanks a lot! As for hellion banshee in tvz, how do you feel about adding a raven first? In case the followup is marine tank, it feels kind of a waste to invest in cloak since youre not making a lot of banshees. On the other hand having a raven there frees up the need to scan to kill tumors and gives you a pdd. Maybe even some potential for turret/seeker missile harrass in the mineral line? No that doesn't make sense. You need 2 banshees out to actually do stuff to the Zerg and feel safe. Yes it is possible to get a raven after 2 banshees, though it's usefulness is rather questionable and situational. I've tried both versions and it feels like the raven is *slightly* stronger versus the very best Zergs but also more luck reliant, as you can lose it/banshees very easily if they go muta or corruptor midgame. Cloak will always pay for itself with 2 banshees if they don't spore every base and can reap dividends even if they do because you can keep his queens out of the middle. That doesn't mean you have to get cloak, but it is very useful. Main issue is that you have to scan anyway when you push to know their army and ravens are so bloody slow you might need to scan for creep too. Delaying the medivacs is often too crippling. On September 12 2012 20:42 BOJINKINS wrote: I was just wondering about TvZ. When the zerg fast expands and they get their pool late and I see that when I already have 2-3 marines should I push out and make a bunker at their natural expansion or sit back in my base and wait? Also can you post a TvZ build this match up is so annoying. I'm not sure what you mean. It's always useful to move your marines out and threaten something, make him a little uncertain. If you go rax cc and he 3 hatch before pool, yes you want to try to bunker him. If he just does 16/16, you can try to bunker after cc but it's really map dependent and I dunno how viable. I'm not going to post an exact build, but instead say go copy taeja, because you'll really only get it by watching it over and over. I suggest his game vs Shine on Antiga from TSL qualifiers as the best replay example. The triple cc double gas reactor hellion banshee is what makes him unique. On September 11 2012 09:34 AKomrade wrote: Hi! I haven't played a game since the start of the last season, but I've been watching a lot recently and I think I'm pretty far behind in terms of builds, but I'm not sure where to start for some (TvZ stuff that you linked at your first post REALLY helped though). In TvP, how common/useful are 3CC builds? I mean, are they just tournament/situation builds? It seems like in most cases, they'd fall over in stiff breezes. And in TvT, are reaper/hellion openers still "viable"? @TvP- No triple orbital builds are safe in general, especially on ramped maps (not Ohana though). You can hold coinflips but it may require overcommitment. The main danger to triple orbital builds is actually triple nexus openings, including the Parting build, because his econ will be so much larger than yours. @TvT- I guess. They are pretty gimmicky but are seen once in awhile. On September 11 2012 04:10 UPro-BW wrote: TvP. how to play this damn matchup? Watch Taeja. On September 11 2012 03:34 Wicek wrote: Hello Ver. How would you play against nexus first when doing rax FE into fast 3rd CC? When do you move out? Is it possible to threaten protoss before medivacs? Do you rush to medivacs or rather for faster upgrades? How would you play against nexus first into 3rd nexus, with forges/HT behind that? That's pretty much the defintion of a blind build order loss. No you cannot punish them pre-medivac in nearly all situations; it's not worth trying. Typically you go 3 cc 3 rax double ebay fact, but you can get fact sooner if you want to be safe. If they go 3 nexus with double forge into HTs, the best you can do is appear menacing while making sure to keep expanding and making orbitals and try to gain an advantage as he can't attack for awhile. If he does attack too early you can usually counter drop him and win a base trade when he can't break your natural while you de power his gates or just kite his army all the way across the map. On September 11 2012 03:24 Tyrtl wrote: When It's early mid game and I have two bunkers up when I go to repair the protoss forcefields behind my bunkers so i cant repair how do i stop this? Target fire sentries with the bunkers while making more in the back. If you kill all his sentries and retain your units, even at the cost of scvs, he can't keep pushing. On September 11 2012 00:29 dynwar7 wrote: Hi Ver After watching MMA vs MVP in GSL....I think that bio needs to play close to perfect to beat mech. In addition to that, I need to change my strategy if I face marine/tank player....obviously many more marines than marauders. I just want one build (for my low level diamond play for now)so.....if I go bio, it will be hard vs mech AND marine tank....if I go marine tank, it will be easy vs bio, but here are my questions: 1.What do you say about marine/tank beating mech? Is it possible? If yes, is it extremely tough? I think its good because oyu have your own tanks to hold lines and your marines can be aggressive everywhere here and there, and they can even stim in when their tanks are unsieged. what do you say? 2. or.......I have no option but to go mech, so I dont need to worry whether my opponent goes marine tank or bio.. Thank you Ver <3 Mech and bio is a pretty even game: it's really hard for both sides. MMA chose a highly risky plan that game and he didn't play it perfectly. You can't draw the conclusion that mech is better from that. You are thinking about this incorrectly though: any non mech player will go marine/tank vs any kind of bio play and bio -> air or bio/tank vs mech. In effect every Terran player has to know how to play vs Mech and vs marine/tank (or vs mech and vs bio if they are mech player). I think the air transition is better than tanks, but some Koreans still win effectively with tanks so both clearly work. Marine/tank iteslf is not used versus mech, while marauders are worthless vs marine/tank. On September 10 2012 12:40 Sovern wrote: I'd have to agree, gasless expand's in tvt are giving the advantage to the player that does go gas first. 1/1/1 marine/tank/banshee pushes are very punishing to gasless expands, you can even all in with it and pull scvs if you really want to push your luck or if your opponent is opening thorzain fast shields style. You can hold those pushes, the margin of error is just very small. But when you hold them you generally auto win. On September 10 2012 12:19 ijw2bagahp wrote: I've heard that it is very important to view the replays of the games that I lost. Is that true? Do you spend more time wathing replays (including replays of other progamers) than playing? I'm a begginer in Starcraft II. Yes for both. If you are practicign the wrong things you are essentially wasting your time. I suggest you look at my guide on how to improve here. http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/stet_tcl/How_to_Improve_by_Ver.pdf On September 12 2012 23:13 RaAj wrote: Thanks for the information, could you, or any other experienced Terran provide me with builds which sets me up for the mid-game please. Also, I have another question; For each matchup what are the usual timings for my: engineering bay, armory, factory, and starport, for each matchup? Most builds I see only really go up to factory and engineering timings. I'd prefer if you based these timings off of a standard bio composition focussing on macro play. I don't want to sound harsh but this is something you need to do see for yourself by watching pro games; I can't effectively explain it and have it sink in with just words. On September 13 2012 00:01 GTR wrote: 99% of my TvP games end up with me losing because I don't know how to engage the storm/colossus/archon death ball properly. How do I do it and which games can I watch for a better idea on how to position my army? Ideally you want him to be attacking into you, preferably through a choke, with your army in a wide arc. Your goal is to have the vikings begin combat as early as possible away from any archons and spread out enough so that storms don't wreck them. The outcome of the battle, assuming ideal ratios, comes down to you emp'ing every one of his templar before they can land a storm. Yes it's very hard, and yes you have to get everything right while he can do whatever the hell he wants. After you win the battle, you may have the chance to kill an expo if you win a landslide victory, but the most important thing is to retreat, heal up, and resupply your army. If you keep pursuing him you lose. You definitely should go through Taeja's TvPs, as he is a specialist at winning battles. In particular, I recommend Taeja/Squirtle from the ESV finals on Abode. Taeja/Squirtle on Taldarim from TAC (liquid/startale), Taeja/Vampire on Daybreak from TAC (liquid/mvp), and Marineking vs Puzzle on Cloud Kingdom. On September 13 2012 14:28 RaAj wrote: Hi, I am wondering, for each MU, what the amount of ghosts should I be going for and if possible, why? I have been wondering this for a while as ghosts are not really used as a DPS unit anymore but rather for EMPs. Also, for each MU when is a good time to start building my ghost academy and how many should I build for each respective MU and should I be making specific barracks to build soley for the purpose of building ghosts or should I just cut production of marauders until I get the optimal amount of ghosts? Thanks. TvT- possible but generally not worth it. watch mma/mkp on daybreak for an example, stars wars korean qualifier final. TvZ- if they mass infestor or against ling/infest/ultra ghosts can be really good to harass with too so longa s you won't die in getting them. TvP- after 3rd cc/double ebay/5 rax you can add it. The more ghosts the better lategame TvP. They do good dps vs zealots and tank, in addition to carpet emps. | ||
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smaug81243
94 Posts
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JonIrenicus
Italy602 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1060 Posts
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army... | ||
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StateofReverie
United States633 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army... take your 5th and 6th gasses slower, especially the 6th. You definitly don't need 6 gasses to support 2 starports, double upgrades, and some mauraders/ghosts on 3 bases. Even for 3/3 and 5 raxes and 1 starport, you only need 4 gas, if not 5 barely otherwise you start stolking up gas because you mine a lot more than you really need On September 14 2012 19:06 JonIrenicus wrote: Hi Ver, question: two medivac timings in tvp. What's the "strongest" version? When does it hits? strongest and most standard timing is the one that hits at 10:30. 1 rax gasless expand into 3 rax fast meds and having +1 attack done by the time you move out as well. You have 2 medivacs, stim, and a handful of bio units that can straight out kill the protoss if he is out of position User was warned for bad advice | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On September 15 2012 03:53 StateofReverie wrote: take your 5th and 6th gasses slower, especially the 6th. You definitly don't need 6 gasses to support 2 starports, double upgrades, and some mauraders/ghosts on 3 bases. Even for 3/3 and 5 raxes and 1 starport, you only need 4 gas, if not 5 barely otherwise you start stolking up gas because you mine a lot more than you really need this is no option. i want to be able to use the map as any other race does. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 14 2012 21:29 graNite wrote: In Tvp Lategame (3+ Bases) I often have overgas. What is a good way to spend it? Ghosts require so many minerals, the only gas dump I know would be ravens, but they are really hard to transition to and I dont really think HSM can kill a toss army... If you have too much gas it can be for severals reasons: gas 4, 5 and/or 6 taken too early, constant trades causing you to remake Marines and Marauders en masse, not having enough SCVs mining minerals, ... When playing TvP, I find myself gas starved because Ghosts, Vikings, Medivacs and upgrades (including air attack upgrades) absorb everything on 3 bases. When I'm taking my fourth while being maxxed and still on 65 SCVs, I take gas 7 and 8 right away because I head for mass Ghosts, which takes a lot of gas (Vikings too). So, basically, assuming you have 65 SCVs on 3 bases, you should be able to dump all your gas into Ghosts/Vikings/Medivacs/upgrades. If you're in a rather low-econ action-packed game in which, for some reason, you constantly trade Marines and Marauders, you should pull some SCVs away from your Refineries because you will have no way to spend your banked gas if it goes too high. Adapt your economy to the type of game you're playing. | ||
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icedragon
86 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On September 15 2012 05:11 icedragon wrote: The issue is that once you are on 4 base and maxed, terran has no gas dump By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are. | ||
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graNite
Germany4434 Posts
On September 15 2012 05:43 TheDwf wrote: By lategame you should aim at getting 20-30 Ghosts, that's 2k-3k gas just for them (not to mention nukes if you use them). When adding Medivacs and Vikings, you can easily reach 4-5k in gas spent for 150-160 supply armies. I'd say that at this point, minerals are the main problem as the resources ratio is 2:1 for Ghosts and Vikings while you have a reduced SCV count and rely on macro OCs to maintain a steady minerals income. Such armies are gas-heavy, but above all they also require 9-11k minerals and getting here is definitely not easy given how powerful Protoss production and harass are. Are you a Terran player? Ghosts cost 200/100, and my problem are always the minerals. How are Ghosts or Vikings(150/75) gasheavy? Raven, Medivacs and Nukes are gas heavy, maybe I can nuke more. I think a better approach to this problem is getting an extra OC (read Mule) for every gas geysir over 4, so that your mineral income is higher. I think I have seen Taeja do this, but maybe Ver has an even better solution. | ||
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