[spoilers] The next generation - Page 11

On April 23 2009 21:28 Chill wrote:

Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.

Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.

On April 24 2009 04:25 boring wrote:
defenitly not fantasy

cuz he is only good when he has a lot of time to train.
he reminds me of mind

On April 24 2009 04:19 latent wrote:

...

On April 23 2009 03:31 Scorch wrote:
sKyHigh, Leta and fantasy for terran,
by.hero, HoeJJa and EffOrt for zerg.
Not much in sight for PrOtoss Really.

On April 24 2009 04:42 Chill wrote:

There is next to zero timing in ZvZ, that's why saying Jaedong is good as ZvZ because he mastered the timings is ridiculous. There's like four timings: When to Lair, when to Hatch, when to move workers and when to attack with Zerglings. Of those four, only the latter requires any sense of timing whatsoever; even then it's far simpler than any timing in any other matchup. Often it's as simple as predicting when his eggs are going to be used for Mutalisks, which I myself can do almost perfectly at the C+ level.

The difficult part of ZvZ is figuring out which build is most likely and then countering that. The final piece of the ZvZ puzzle is coming back from a deficit after choosing the wrong build. Jaedong continually wins situations he shouldn't by using incredible micro, but moreso tactics.

Timing accounts for next to nothing in ZvZ and shouldn't really be mentioned.

The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him.

On April 24 2009 04:19 latent wrote:

Chill. I have never sworn at a person or insulted their intelligence. Despite being called a dumbf*** and other coarse words by the same few people over and over again, I have never blown up or so much as returned a flame at another person. I don't attach smiley faces or excessive "I thinks" to my posts, so I'm sorry if it comes across to you as "talking down". I have NEVER come onto a thread just to insult someone, as a few others have done repeatedly with me. I regularly express appreciation in other threads of people's works. Yet you single me out because a couple of foul-mouthed short-tempered users call me out for being "wrong", or call me a "moron" for a supposedly misused word?

If you really think something I'm saying is wrong, I'd be happy to debate it with you in a more interactive setting, like IRC, or something more personal like PM. I spend a lot of time thinking about what I say (most of it anyways). Cite me on almost anything I've said about a match, and I can give you very good arguments as to why what I said has significant merit. Please, I'd really appreciate it if you would carry on such a debate with me, especially away from the few who strive to create a flame war over it. I'm totally serious. Just PM me something you thought I said was incorrect, and we'll engage in a civil discussion over its positive and negative merits.

You have to understand I have never intended to throw a thread into disarray. Were it not for the ongoing flames of a few, my comments would either be ignored or accepted like anyone else's. Please do not unfairly blame me for their own mischief.

On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote:
There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.

Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.

On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote:
rofl
so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces
than you for enlightening me

On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote:
Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".

JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.

On April 23 2009 16:21 IdrA wrote:
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior?
every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?

On April 23 2009 16:22 latent wrote:
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???

On April 23 2009 16:25 IdrA wrote:



whats stopping the next generation then?

On April 23 2009 16:30 latent wrote:

Because there have been no new "bonjwa". Why do you think "bonjwa" even existed? Do you understand the concept of advantages between micro vs. macro? SC began with micro masters, continued on to macro monsters, and has convalesced to people who demonstrate superior timing and can dominate both sides of the coin.

If it isn't obvious yet, pure macro is superior to more micro. It can actually be quantified through a mathetatical proof.

Idra, I'm just curious, how do you talk to people in real life?

On April 23 2009 17:08 latent wrote:
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.

On April 23 2009 17:33 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:


the countless B-teamers and amateurs (where every single progamer started) who are not mechanically up to par yet don't count? there's a MASSIVE amount of uncovered potential in pro SC right now, moreso than ever before

so again we go back to you assuming that what's going on in the game right now is the peak of what's possible, when THERE'S A PLAYER NAMED FANTASY PROVING YOU WRONG EVERY TIME HE STEPS INTO THE BOOTH

latent pm'd fakesteve:

Since you've raised this to a level beyond casual discussion, and are now attacking me personally, I figure it's best to continue this conversation privately. That, and I know you are waiting for me to say something offensive to you publically so you can feel justified in banning me. I've seen you run this joke of a play several times before in the Power Ranks.

Obviously, we are both terrible at this game. I have not put in the effort to develop the micro control needed to play at a high level. Every game I've seen you play also showed a very low level of play. That's fine, I just want to show that we are similar in terms of Starcraft skill.

We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play. Why do you think the smartest people go to the best schools? Because the peers and staff you surround yourself with improve your abilities, almost automatically. Surround myself with UNIVERSITY level Starcraft players has increased my ability to study the game. Have you ever stepped into a post-secondary institution, let alone had indepth discussions with one's students about Starcraft? Clearly this shows why you continue to attack me rather than address the facts at hand.

When the game is still going through innovation, the best players rise to the top. As innovation stagnates, it becomes hard to separate yourself. That's why there's no bonjwa right now, simple as that. And that's why there will never be a further generation of players beyond what we've acheived now.

It's really quite simple.

On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote:
Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.

On April 25 2009 00:43 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
latent just PM'd me. oh no, latent, this is a fucking public outing, this will not be handled privately. it will not be my hand that bans you, for i have chosen to tell you how fucking stupid you are instead.



is this a joke? it's funny, it must be a joke. i'd like to draw attention to this line:

"We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play"

The first part is insulting. We are not similar in StarCraft knowledge. I am your superior in every fucking conceivable way. I didn't learn this game from Artosis, I learned this game by watching EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PROFESSIONAL GAME FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS. I have in me a vast knowledgebase of progaming theory, history, metagame, timing, strategy, tactics, every fucking aspect of this game. You have an elective class at berkeley taught by a C- protoss player. It makes me sick to see you drag an incredible name like yosh through the mud by associating yourself with him. yosh and artosis have been top competitive USA players for a long fucking time, they are more comparable to each other than to any other nonkorean player. but according to you, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY PLAY AT VIRTUALLY THE SAME SKILL LEVEL USING THE SAME KNOWLEDGE, Artosis is an old, washed-up talent. un-fucking-real.

Let me fucking tell you something: "UNIVERSITY" level starcraft player doesn't mean a goddamned thing. When I get around to playing StarCraft, I play with top nonkorean players, friends from msn and irc.. OH, AND SAINT[Z-ZONE] AND SEA[SHIELD]. You have no fucking idea who you're trying to compare yourself to here.

I'M failing to address the facts at hand? I post a GIANT FUCKING EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU ARE WRONG giving SPECIFIC EVIDENCE and showing LOGICAL FUCKING INCONSISTENCIES ON YOUR PART, and you respond with "i play with UNIVERSITY level players so clearly we're both bad players but I know more about sc than you".

Then, at the end, you CONTINUE THE LINE OF THINKING I JUST FUCKING DESTROYED, completely ignoring everything I said that paints a clear, concise picture of why you are fucking wrong.

Then you tell me it's "quite simple".