I'm not even going to bother quoting what you just said because I don't want to help spread idiocy and become an accomplish to making some poor soul become a retard.
Just know this, even I know as a Terran player, TvT matchup is not even close to PvP matchup. No one BO will beat another BO, which is why you get these long drawn out TvTs.
Jaedong will fall one of these days just like oov did and you'll find out how your foot tastes. When someone becomes so good at one thing and constantly is showing it off, it becomes easier to identify how to counter it, it is basic strategy.
That's due to the game evolving over time. Of course the players weren't as competitive as today, but that's because the game was young. It does not change the fact that the game took the entire country like the plague when it came out. I lived in Korea when the game came out, and professional gamers emerged in a very short time.
Starcraft has been played in every corner of South Korea ever since it bloomed along with the PC Bang phenomena. Starcraft in South Korea has always had a very large talent pool. People you know, continued to get better and still continue to get better. Even the general level of skill in foreigners have increased tremendously over time.
Starcraft hasn't been played TO SUCH A COMPETITIVE LEVEL as it is now. Just listen to Boxer's story about how his parents didn't understand what a "pro gamer" actually did. The situation held true for many families even in later generations. No one considered pro gaming a "legitimate" thing to do with one's life, and that stigma towards it lasted for quite a while.
The Majority of People in America still have a stigma against Hockey, but that doesn't change anything about it. Telling someone you're a hockey fan and not a football fan usually grants some looks or remarks, especially in the non-new england and non-northern areas. So what you might think about pro-gaming or not, doesn't change the fact that there is a talent pool and the ability to create new strategic depth.
Like, does he even realize how much all three of the Zerg matchups have changed the past year? If you look back at games in early 2008 and compare them to games played in early 2009, the differences are fucking huge. If all this happened in just one year, who's to say that things are not going to continue to change? Tons and tons of new players have emerged since the death of 2v2, and there are undeniable talent amongst these newcomers.
On April 23 2009 17:49 koreasilver wrote: Like, does he even realize how much all three of the Zerg matchups have changed the past year? If you look back at games in early 2008 and compare them to games played in early 2009, the differences are fucking huge. If all this happened in just one year, who's to say that things are not going to continue to change? Tons and tons of new players have emerged since the death of 2v2, and there are undeniable talent amongst these newcomers.
He probably realizes, he just doesn't care. None of his posts looked to past precedents, only current events; which is a great flaw when debating over competitive sports because the past really outlines the future. Even in a time of high apms, even foreigners having extremely high apm, slow and efficent apm is what stood on top.
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average.
I know I probably shouldn't egg you on, but July has probably the highest recorded apm to date at 843 against Hwasin I believe it was. On average though, he generally has a higher APM. July doesn't prefer one build over the other, he just plays whichever meta game he knows he can win with.
Edit, sorry, 818
I'm sure there was a game that July hit a peak of 1k APM.
On April 23 2009 17:19 koreasilver wrote: It's a shame. Ever since Jaedong stormed onto the scene, ZvZ has become so interesting with all the variations of builds that came up, the return of overgas builds, and fucked up improvements in micro.
it is a shame. jaedong excels in zvz because he can play any build and any style with magnificent skill. however, a lot of the things he has introduced or revived have become common among other zergs, and they're bringing their own stuff to the table as well in an effort to combat jaedong and his imitators. jaedong's dominance has brought zvz through an incredible advancement over the last year
On April 23 2009 17:27 latent wrote: Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
the countless B-teamers and amateurs (where every single progamer started) who are not mechanically up to par yet don't count? there's a MASSIVE amount of uncovered potential in pro SC right now, moreso than ever before
so again we go back to you assuming that what's going on in the game right now is the peak of what's possible, when THERE'S A PLAYER NAMED FANTASY PROVING YOU WRONG EVERY TIME HE STEPS INTO THE BOOTH
Yes, seriously wtf. Fantasy proved us wrong by bringing back valkyrie and showing us how to actually use it efficiently, as well as creating new BOs such as the BO mentioned in the TLFE "The Terran Revolutionist" and the Valkyrie -> Marine/Medic BO. TvZ was never the same after Fantasy's TvZ in Incruit OSL. And how can you (latent) still say that we've already hit the pinnacle of Starcraft?
When Savior reigned supreme, we started thinking PvZ was impossible. Then Bisu stepped in.
Let's take a few steps back, and look at when Nada raped every single Zerg using the SK Terran build. Then Zergs learned how to counter it, and look at the present day, where even the most efficient and strongest Terrans going SK Terran have difficulty facing zergs (Jaedong vs Flash for Winner's League semifinals, is one amazing example).
Starcraft is constantly evolving. You may say we have reached the peak, but that peak is only bound within that certain era. The next era will push the boundaries so far players couldn't have even imagined a couple of years ago.
so much bashing on latent I haven't read it all yet and i guess much of the bash are called for but his initial post had some truth aswell, except i wouldn't use those exact ages etc.
I too think that the competition and the level of play is much higher today than it was for example back in 2004. Thats why we don't have bonjwas today imo, because there are too many players who have almost mastered the mechanics of the game. Sure there might be a new generation of players but its unlikely given that there wont be so much time now until sc2 is out, and jaedong flash and bisu are still pretty young and can easily continue to evolve for many years.
I think the reason why the previous bonjwas lost their bonjwa status was not because they grew old but because the competition and the level of play only gets higher and higher. Boxer was bonjwa in the earlier stages of the game due to his creativity and that the game was not evolved as much as it is now. He could never have become bonjwa today with his micro/macro/creativity even if he was as fast as he was in 2002.
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
thats the entire point they didnt fall from dominance because they got worse, they fell because the game evolved and better players took over
his first post claimed that the current players wont fall off because they wont start to get worse for another 10 years. thats entirely irrelevant, boxer and garimto didnt get worse either. other people just surpassed them.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
On April 23 2009 18:01 StylishVODs wrote: so much bashing on latent I haven't read it all yet and i guess much of the bash are called for \
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
thats the entire point they didnt fall from dominance because they got worse, they fell because the game evolved and better players took over
his first post claimed that the current players wont fall off because they wont start to get worse for another 10 years. thats entirely irrelevant, boxer and garimto didnt get worse either. other people just surpassed them.
Ok it seemed like you were referring to them being old and therefor not able to compete anymore, but if thats the case then i agree with you. I was really hasty when reading this, ill take some time to look into the posts of this thread, seems like entertainement to me
I thought his first post was pointing out that flash jaedong and bisu are still very young and can keep "dominating"(they aren't really dominating except jaedong for zvz though but playing really well) for a long time and therefor this whole discussion about the next generation is pretty useless since starcraft2 will be out soon. I myself believe that starcraft can still evolve both strategically and mechanically however the difference won't be as huge as in the past, thus really mechanically strong players such as the three mentioned are not likely to get dominated by a "new generation" of players as the players in the past has.
A thread about who will be the next dominating generation should atleast wait to be made until the current dominating players aren't under 20 anymore or something like that, i mean flash is 16 he is the next generation.
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
Protip: when trying to advertise your "analytic skills", be sure you know the meaning of each of the words you are using.
Though it would be pretty cool if my analytic skills did supercede yours, because then you (with the help of my analytic skills) might be able to write a post that didn't make you look like a moron.
Ok so I read the thread. Latent, you cannot say that we have reached the peak of human potential. You can never say that without the results in hand and if starcraft 1 would have been played for another 10 years it would still evolve. And you are wrong about the starcraft strategy theory. Its a very strategic game, however what you mentioned about timings and to abuse them etc are correct.
I can understand why people get mad at you when you make suchs claims but I can also see that you are not stupid because alot of what you say is also very true. You just need to know when you're wrong, because you have been several times here although most people exagurate when they say that everything you say is wrong.
I agree with you that I don't think that starcraft will have a next generation of players, however its not because the peak is reached but rather that the mechanical level is so high today that the difference between a good mechanical player and a "bad" one is not big enough to let anyone dominate the scene for a long time. Thats why we have no new bonjwas today. But the biggest reason that I think we won't have a next generation of dominating players is simply because of the fact that starcraft 2 is coming and there might not be so much time left for players to evolve at starcrat 1.
But you can never say that anything is a fact. We just don't know yet, maybe a player will come along and dominate the scene again its very much possible but less likely than before.
The reason why older players are less likely to dominate is because if a player plays the game for 10 years, those 10 years are oppertunities for other players to evolve into a better player. Thats simple logic. Its less likely that a player will dominate for long than a short period of time because of the comptetition.
On a sidenote, fakesteve are you serious about understanding the game better than anyone else? I'm sure you have alot of understanding of the game, I can tell when reading the power ranks for example but to go from there into claiming such a position is abit wierd to say the least.
Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
On April 24 2009 03:07 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
This is one of the reasons why WC3 is dying/dead. Still using the same maps from what, 4 years ago?
On April 24 2009 03:07 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
This is one of the reasons why WC3 is dying/dead. Still using the same maps from what, 4 years ago?
there are maps in the solo pool that have been there since release although, the solo pool is much better than the team game pools.
EPT
I haven't read it all yet and i guess much of the bash are called for but his initial post had some truth aswell, except i wouldn't use those exact ages etc.
