On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time.
whats stopping the next generation then?
Because there have been no new "bonjwa". Why do you think "bonjwa" even existed? Do you understand the concept of advantages between micro vs. macro? SC began with micro masters, continued on to macro monsters, and has convalesced to people who demonstrate superior timing and can dominate both sides of the coin.
If it isn't obvious yet, pure macro is superior to more micro. It can actually be quantified through a mathetatical proof.
Idra, I'm just curious, how do you talk to people in real life?
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average. Nada completely DOMINATED his field during his bonjwa era with his macro and micro, which was in part a result of having such a huge APM. But then players who were more efficient with their APM and had a better game-sense came along. Someone like Flash has a lower APM, but an absolutely *incomparable* sense of timing. Nada can't even compare. His innovative vulture play has been emulated and even improved on by others. But there are no new units, no new builds, no new strategies in SC. Players have reached the *human* peak.
It's conceivable a Michael Jordan-type could come along and dominate everyone, but I wouldn't count on it. I could give you a physiological argument as to why, but the last time I started talking scientifically about race and genetics I was banned for a week. So I'm definitely not going there.
latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
yeah seriously that statement implies that latent has some magical knowledge that allows him to see the absolute pinnacle of what's possible in starcraft and we have hit it
considering how dumb everything he posts is we can discount that possibility
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
he was saying you, specifically, cant disagree with him because you dont know anything.
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
i said you were stupid and make up stupid analogies to back up your stupid claims and you take that as me calling you "level-minded"
what is wrong with you & also there ain't a white man alive that understands this game at the level that I do across all three races, and if there is, it certainly ain't you
you don't know anything about starcraft, stop posting, etc. every thread you post in turns into a bunch of people who have a much better idea of what the fuck they're talking about quoting your post and telling you how stupid what you just said is, and then you trying to argue with them using stupid comparisons and evidence that has no bearing on your claim whatsoever (not that you, personally, you the poster "latent", can tell)
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average.
I know I probably shouldn't egg you on, but July has probably the highest recorded apm to date at 843 against Hwasin I believe it was. On average though, he generally has a higher APM. July doesn't prefer one build over the other, he just plays whichever meta game he knows he can win with.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
i said you were stupid and make up stupid analogies to back up your stupid claims and you take that as me calling you "level-minded"
what is wrong with you & also there ain't a white man alive that understands this game at the level that I do across all three races, and if there is, it certainly ain't you
you don't know anything about starcraft, stop posting, etc. every thread you post in turns into a bunch of people who have a much better idea of what the fuck they're talking about quoting your post and telling you how stupid what you just said is, and then you trying to argue with them using stupid comparisons and evidence that has no bearing on your claim whatsoever (not that you, personally, you the poster "latent", can tell)
I'm Asian. Does that mean I can understand the game better than you now?
Also, as much as I dislike Idra, I'm guessing he has a better idea of some things than you.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
I'm sure people were thinking that a 'peak' existed with babe ruth too sir. It is all perspective. If you can't prove anything, then your debate is strawman and pretty much a waste of space. It isn't even an opinionated debate with you because you don't even provide where you draw these inferences from.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
guess what? starcraft was as popular in korea in 2004 as it is now. every current top player just so happened to start around or after that period as well, the difference being that right now there are far more rookies and amateurs, many of which achieve relative success pretty quick due to strong, innovative play
People used to think Nada's SK Terran was the perfect TvZ. People learned to beat it.
2hatch Zerg play became almost extinct for long period, and it has had a strong resurgence since the Hwasin vs Jaedong MSL semifinals and the Flash vs Jaedong GOM S1 finals.
Terran mech in TvZ was almost extinct for an extremely long time, and it reemerged.
The 2archon speedlot push was considered by some to be the "perfect" PvZ build not too long ago, and basically every Zerg player knows how to play against it.
I'm not sure how the game has ceased to show change and creativity. The general level of ZvZ has increased to ridiculous heights recently, in example.
EPT
