Now that Jaedong, Flash and Bisu have lost their most recent game, I think it's a good time to consider what the next generation of great players may look like.
Who is it going to be? A few names immediately come up, the most obvious one being sKyHigh, who hasn't lost the momentum he gained from all killing OZ. However other than that it's hard to tell, especially for the zerg where I personally can't picture any zerg ever winning against Jaedong, but past trends show that it must one day happen, just as iloveoov started losing to zerg.
If there is time for another generation of great players to emerge before the release of Starcraft II, which names do you think could make up that next generation?
ANTI CONFUSION EDIT: I'm deleting a paragraph in the OP that probably contributed to the confusion.
I'm not saying that the top players aren't the top players cause they dropped a game in proleauge. They are still the top players. They won't be forever though, and this topic is about what will happen when they'll fall. It's not saying "they're falling, who will replace them." I'm not saying the top players are all falling now, I'm saying they'll eventually fall and people will eventually rise up to replace them and this topic is speculating over who those players might be.
I seriously doubt any of the new players will win next starleague. Jaedong is still really fucking scary, and probably the strongest player out there. Flash and Bisu are going strong, and Luxury, Jangbi and Stork are still extremely strong contenders that I doubt skyhigh and the other new generation chums would really stand a chance against in BO#'s.
Hwaseung Oz has a nice crop of Zerg players coming up. PirateZerg has been showing some ferocious ZvZ, and I just can't picture MustacheZerg losing any of his games.
In all seriousness, recent results aside, I think the TaekDong era is far from over.
I dont see a young super star coming up. Bisu won his MSL duo when he was so young, Flash dominated the same way, JD is just so consistent. But I feel Tazza is champion material
and btw isnt leta the same age as jd/bisu ? I guess he just showed up pretty late, rather than being young and promising, same case with BeSt
just because Jaedong dropped two proleague games doesn't mean he is on the decline. Both he and Bisu are still scary good, both of them are still solidly the top players of their respective races.
Flash is a little more iffy though, if he continues to fail in individual leagues he may lose his place as top Terran, if he hasn't lost it already. Skyhigh is on a wicked streak, he just needs to prove himself in a starleague. Fantasy is a good contender to if he can keep up the level of play he has been showing
On April 23 2009 03:31 Scorch wrote: Not much in sight for protoss really.
Movie's recent performance against Jaedong was very impressive.
I'm disappointed with the VOD though, whoever was broadcasting it wasn't moving their mouse around very well, I didn't see that Movie had starports until he had like 6 corsiars, and I didn't see that Movie had a templar archive, let alone a pair of archons until the archons were in Jaedong's main.
Also free is performing well. Kind of old for "next generation" though.
On April 23 2009 03:39 freelander wrote: next generation ? lol flash is 16 years old ffs
Meh, what matters is that he's already done the rising thing and is now doing that falling thing.
Flash could turn out to be like Nada, and come back again and again. But if he does comeback I doubt it will be for this OSL.
On April 23 2009 03:41 lordmordor wrote: Flash is a little more iffy though, if he continues to fail in individual leagues he may lose his place as top Terran, if he hasn't lost it already.
I agree Flash isn't his old dominating self, but not top terran wtf? He went like 11-1 just a few weeks ago, and isn't he #1 in proleague or something? At least top 3...
I never said that Jaedong et al weren't on the top, I said that they wouldn't be on the top forever, and that it's a good time to look at who will be the next to rise to the top.
its PL, who the fuck cares about PL. The new players do im sure, and are practicing their asses of. The old guys dont give a shit. You're reading too much into 1 freakin game in a PL that doesnt mean shit.
On April 23 2009 03:44 Geo.Rion wrote: durr, they lost one (or two at most) games, durr, let's find the new top players, durr, Flash-Bisu-JD suck, durr
Seriously, my thoughts exactly. Those 3 vs anyone is very much in their favour. I can't comprehend what you were thinking when you made this thread.
Sorry about that Chill, I had a provocative and offtopic paragraph in the OP that confused people as to the purpose of this thread.
I've deleted that paragraph and added a clarification edit to clarify that this thread isn't stating that the top players aren't the top players, it's just stating that they won't be the top players forever and it's a thread for speculating about who might eventually succeed them.
On April 23 2009 03:27 scwizard wrote: ANTI CONFUSION EDIT: I'm deleting a paragraph in the OP that probably contributed to the confusion.
I'm not saying that the top players aren't the top players cause they dropped a game in proleauge. They are still the top players. They won't be forever though, and this topic is about what will happen when they'll fall. It's not saying "they're falling, who will replace them." I'm not saying the top players are all falling now, I'm saying they'll eventually fall and people will eventually rise up to replace them and this topic is speculating over who those players might be.
I can't comprhend what you were thinking when you made that thread
I was thinking "lets start a discussion about which players are up and coming and may replace the greats down the road when they're not the top players anymore"
I just put an unnecessary paragraph in there by mistake, and everyone focused on that. I'm very sorry.
Flash-Bisu-JD remain the top contenders for starleague titles, now as they have over the last year. All have over 60% winrates in 2009, and JD/Bisu have OVER 70%. A couple recent losses doesn't change that.
I think that if you look at his winrate and who he has beaten, he certainly isn't bad. I also think that he's starting to develop a unique style that could be very powerful once he grows into it. In a year from now, or sooner, I'm expecting him to appear in a starleague top8.
Orion and TheZerg have been progamers forever. Orion is and always will be in a state of mediocrity and TheZerg is way to inconsistent to ever be anything more than a sniper.
terran: skyhigh, baby (fantasy dont make it to my list b/c fantasy is oov's puppet zerg: its too early to say "next generation". Jaedong, july, savior is still doing well in proleagues. toss: tempest, horang2, But bisu and free is still doing well so.
I'd say for Protoss the players to look out for concerning winning a league are Kal and Free. Both have been known names for a while but never did much in leagues. But they both seem to be getting better and better
There is no real new talent besides Effort, Zero, Skyhigh, and fantasy.
flash and jaedong are still going to be chillin in the kespa top 10 for quite a while, a few losses doesn't mean shit. All these people goin crazy cause Jaedong lost a couple games. you need 2 take a step back look at who your talkin about. Jaedong was on fire for the past few months. If he doesn't make ro 8 or better in one of the individual leagues (including gom) Then maybe start worryin ^^ j/k
Skyhigh and Baby are looking really good atm, but they're just fresh faces with a lot to prove. I wouldn't actually call Fantasy the next generation as he's already got himself into 2 OSL finals and is preforming pretty good in PL.
But they're all promising and I'm quite hyped to see Baby perform in a starleague.
But seriously, Movie has the most hideously unrefied style. If he's actually got a style. Just by watching his game vs Jeadong, you can see him sending his units to attack but he doesn't have the elegance that Bisu has. Strategically he's good, but he's not entertaining to watch.
Firstly, i think player likes Jaedong and Flash are nowhere near falling from dominance. Their style is too crazy and the are still just so far ahead of so many others.
In general, these things are next to impossible to predict. Flash and Jaedong largely came out of nowhere to rise to the top. Few players (although Bisu is one of them) are pretty good for a while before being the best.
That said, if I had to choose 1 player, i'd pick ZerO. His muta micro is perhaps the best in the world, and he has the mechanics to go far.
On April 23 2009 04:18 FirstBorn wrote: But seriously, Movie has the most hideously unrefied style. If he's actually got a style. Just by watching his game vs Jeadong, you can see him sending his units to attack but he doesn't have the elegance that Bisu has. Strategically he's good, but he's not entertaining to watch.
That he's able to show such results with such a blatant lack of refinement is why I think he has a lot of promise.
You say he's good strategically, so I think then it's just a matter of practice and refinement. It's very hard to gain good strategy if you don't have it, but mechanics and refinement are something that Movie should gain with time, I think it will be a very long time though.
From 2008 II and 2009 I drafts (I am not including team licensing players their own). Predicting 2 to 4 players reaching S-class level in next 2 years.
SKT1
KT.MGW)Sweetly (김강빈)
Wemade
NsP_FATE (서신우)
ESTRO
If.Classic hwata[saM]
Yes I hope ESTRO finally getting some heavy hitters, who knows maybe they will soon get s-class player too.
Fantasy is already a well-established star and the most likely Terran to win any given league at the moment (so he's the "best Terran" by that definition). Flash is a better player and still has plenty of time to get his act together. Realistically, neither Flash nor Fantasy has maxed out their potential, though Flash might never get to his max because it seems like it's just so high (higher than any other player for sure).
Skyhigh and By.Hero are for real. I'm expecting Hero to beat Kal in the upcoming GOM match.
Effort is almost certainly for real too. Gotta see more games from Movie but he looks quite good as well.
By the way, what "well known" progamers are younger than Flash? Just Baby? There's no way Flash is done, guys. He's STILL younger than Jaedong was when Jaedong won his first league....
I see OSL semi-finals.... Jaedong vs Hwasin and Flash vs By.Hero... Nah ok, I dream of these semi-final, I don't really see it! Not such a big fan of Fantasy. He's great but if you're looking for a titan's battle between Jaedong and some other player, I think Flash is the one to call (as long as he doesn't go for a completely standard mech build that JD knows by heart and get raped before his tech kicks in; play safe Flash!)
skyhigh and baby are going to be solid... i don't like any of the new zergs.
Bisu's loss was pure LOLS and Jaedong's loss was because he made a simple mistake which he admitted to. Everyone makes mistakes and he got caught w/ a big one losing the expo to two cannons.
On April 23 2009 04:26 Too_MuchZerg wrote: From 2008 II and 2009 I drafts (I am not including team licensing players their own). Predicting 2 to 4 players reaching S-class level in next 2 years.
SKT1
KT.MGW)Sweetly (김강빈)
Wemade
NsP_FATE (서신우)
ESTRO
If.Classic hwata[saM]
Yes I hope ESTRO finally getting some heavy hitters, who knows maybe they will soon get s-class player too.
On April 23 2009 03:46 scwizard wrote: I never said that Jaedong et al weren't on the top, I said that they wouldn't be on the top forever, and now that they've hit a small bump, it's a good time to look at who will be the next to rise to the top.
"A small bump"? Each of these guys lost one PL game (JD 2). You're reading way too much into the result of one set. If you want to have a discussion about the next generation of top gamers that's cool, but you don't have to sensationalize like this.
Oh yeah, and here are my bets for this season of Starleagues:
On April 23 2009 04:26 Too_MuchZerg wrote: From 2008 II and 2009 I drafts (I am not including team licensing players their own). Predicting 2 to 4 players reaching S-class level in next 2 years.
SKT1
KT.MGW)Sweetly (김강빈)
Wemade
NsP_FATE (서신우)
ESTRO
If.Classic hwata[saM]
Yes I hope ESTRO finally getting some heavy hitters, who knows maybe they will soon get s-class player too.
Anyone remember the last MSL Group Selection when the had to compile which player is the the hardest to play/beat something like that and most of them said Horang2.. that dude is good, and will certainly be another great protoss, just like Bisu is/was
On April 23 2009 05:06 wwooaa wrote: Anyone remember the last MSL Group Selection when the had to compile which player is the the hardest to play/beat something like that and most of them said Horang2.. that dude is good, and will certainly be another great protoss, just like Bisu is/was
I think they said this because Horang2 used wicked cheese to qualify for the MSL in the first place (proxies, 14nex and DT rushes).
On April 23 2009 03:46 scwizard wrote: I never said that Jaedong et al weren't on the top, I said that they wouldn't be on the top forever, and now that they've hit a small bump, it's a good time to look at who will be the next to rise to the top.
"A small bump"? Each of these guys lost one PL game (JD 2). You're reading way too much into the result of one set. If you want to have a discussion about the next generation of top gamers that's cool, but you don't have to sensationalize like this.
Oh yeah, and here are my bets for this season of Starleagues:
On April 23 2009 05:40 Sunyveil wrote: OMG 1 LOSS = SLUMP
JD, FLASH, AND BISU SUCK NOW
I never used the word slump. Also I keep saying that I'm not saying that JD, Flash and Bisu suck. Nothing could be further from the truth, these people are the top players. I don't know why you think I'm saying this, because I'm not.
On April 23 2009 05:40 Sunyveil wrote: edit: seriously, do we need threads like this? It's going to be a while until the 'next generation' fully realizes itself
So do you think its possible to predict who those players are that will eventually full realize themselves?
Ouch, did I say losing to. I meant winning against. Or maybe I meant "Jaedong losing to any zerg", I don't know, but "winning against" is the most clear. I've changed the OP to say "I can't imagine any zerg winning against Jaedong" I guess it's ok because people interpreted it the correct way. It's hard to even imagine someone saying something so stupid looking at Jaedong's record.
On April 23 2009 04:06 ExSoldier wrote: terran: skyhigh, baby (fantasy dont make it to my list b/c fantasy is oov's puppet.
It's called "coaching". Oov isn't the one sitting in the booth or making back-to-back finals. Fantasy doesn't just have potential, he's actually going toe-to-toe with the absolute best players and breaking even. He's improving at an incredible rate and he's still hungry for a gold. Fantasy versus top players this year: Jaedong: 3-3 Flash: 2-0 Bisu: 3-0 Jangbi: 0-2 Luxury: 2-2
(Yes I'm cherry picking. Point is, he's amazing and all the secret Oov tech in the world isn't worth jack unless you're really good at Starcraft, like Fantasy.)
edit: in response to the actual thread: agree with above quote that SkyHigh and Baby have potential. For zerg, Hero looks good. For all the hype, Effort still hasn't done anything with himself in terms of leagues, whereas Hero made semifinals in his first OSL (like Flash!), although he got massacred by Jaedong (whom I predict will be the ZvZ master for a LONG time, even after T's and P's catch up with him). For Protoss... I dunno, I'd say Backho and Rock will probably fuse into an Archon and kill everyone
But probably the next sensation will be someone that nobody saw coming.
Where did Jaedong 3-3 come from? I know that at least Jaedong won 3 games in finals, and another game in proleauge where he used a queen or two.
I wouldn't say that Fantasy has "promise", he's beyond that point to the point where he's playing in OSL finals.
So what I'm saying is that this thread isn't really about Fantasy. Whether or not Fantasy will continue to dominate is just as out of scope ITT as whether or not Jaedong will continue to dominate.
I dunno, I'd say Backho and Rock will probably fuse into an Archon and kill everyone
I think the last great generation will be Bisu/JD/Flash. I mean, since they came up, how many new players have really surfaced as "top players"? Bisu dethroned Savior way back in early 07. Jaedong rose to dominance when Bisu went into a temporary slump. Flash became a monster in the period shortly after that with the GSI and Bacchus. They have all had their ups and downs, but for the last year or so, all 3 players have been on top. I don't really see them going anywhere, either. New players may come out, but I don't see new players rising to the peaks of those 3 anytime soon.
But, as for rising stars, Skyhigh, Effort... I dunno if Jangbi or Best would be considered "new", but they is certainly "newer" than Bisu/Stork/etc.
On April 23 2009 06:06 scwizard wrote: Where did Jaedong 3-3 come from? I know that at least Jaedong won 3 games in finals, and another game in proleauge where he used a queen or two.
I wouldn't say that Fantasy has "promise", he's beyond that point to the point where he's playing in OSL finals.
So what I'm saying is that this thread isn't really about Fantasy. Whether or not Fantasy will continue to dominate is just as out of scope ITT as whether or not Jaedong will continue to dominate.
Agreed on fantasy. But the reason he doesn't belong is not because he's Oov's puppet, that's a bullshit reason and that's what I was reacting to.
As for Jaedong 3-3, I just took all their games from this year. IIRC their all-time record favors Jaedong, but I had to start somewhere and since Fantasy is improving rapidly I figured I'd choose a recent date.
Ahh, I see why people keep thinking that I'm saying that Flash/Bisu/Jaedong are going to fall soon, it's because the perception that SC2 is coming out soon.
The reason I didn't see that before, is because my personal belief is that SC2 is not coming out for another 2+ years, and the idea of Bisu dominating from early 2007 to early 2012 is hard to imagine given starcraft's history.
Apparently many don't share my beliefs about the release date of SC2. To helps clear away confusion, I'm going to add a cautionary "if there is to be another generation top players before the release of starcraft 2" to the OP.
EDIT: My comment about "who would you bet on for this season's starleagues" was meant to be more about "who would you bet on for rising above their previous status" than "who do you think is going to win"
As others have said, a few games lost really means nothing, especially considering how consistent Bisu, JD, and Flash have been throughout their career. But here's my list:
Skyhigh is just an example of players with confidence in itself. That show how a win can make a A class player look like a S player... I really wish that he keep winning but someday the momentum will stop and he will be the same old Skyhigh with insecurity. I think that in this time all the players are so good that just a little confidence make a huge diference, just the players that keep that confidence high enough are the S class ( just look at Jaedong, Flash, Bisu interviews they even sound cocky)
My point is that just a win (or a set) in a match can trigger that confidence and make a average player (for korea pros) a S class player.
On April 23 2009 07:02 anTi_ wrote: Does anyone notice that scwizard edits every single one of his posts.
And this is evidence of?
If you're going to call someone a liar for instance, saying "do you notice how often they look away when you speak to them" is not the best way to start forming a logical argument.
Honestly, the accuracy of these kinds of predictions is always terrible, because almost all the time they're based on PL performance, which doesn't always translate into the ability to perform in an SL. So many people in the past have predicted that x or y player will be good based on their PL performance, only to watch them end up choking up in individual leagues, and lose to players they really shouldn't. Achieving Proleague dominance is a LONG way away from being one of the best. If you can't handle yourself in a BoX game, you're no champion. Sea is probably the prime example of a player that showed a lot of promise, but never ended up shining in the individual leagues. Leta might be too, but he hasn't been in enough individual leagues to call it a trend yet.
On April 23 2009 05:40 Sunyveil wrote: OMG 1 LOSS = SLUMP
JD, FLASH, AND BISU SUCK NOW
edit: seriously, do we need threads like this? It's going to be a while until the 'next generation' fully realizes itself
its going to be pretty cool if we read this like one or two years from now and laugh at our predictions for the next big player
ah I'm trying to find some like 3 y.o. thread. Basically it was a same discussion but about who will be the next best zerg player. There was actually a poll which was won ofc by a guy which name I cant remember, but ppl thought he was more promising than IPXzerg someone pls give me a hand with this, it was pure gold
can't bring myself to mention ZerO since he knocked out sAviOr in the ro8
by.hero is a real mystery for me, he's so beastly yet why aren't STX sending him out for PL? the kid looks like he's gonna go far
ive been a really big fan of HoeJJa ever since I saw him in the ro16(?) of GOM against Bisu he looked really happy always smiling so i felt good for him. all he needs to do now is a win a zvz
can't bring myself to mention ZerO since he knocked out sAviOr in the ro8
by.hero is a ReaL mystery for me, he's so beastly yet why aren't STX sending him out for PL? the kid looks like he's gonna go far
ive been a really big fan of HoeJJa ever since I saw him in the ro16(?) of GOM against Bisu he looked really happy always smiling so i felt good for him. all he needs to do now is a win a zvz
My guess on the whole by.hero thing is that they want to push modesty forward to make their already zerg stacked lineup that much better. At the same time have by.hero focus on starleagues perhaps. As someone who put by.hero on his fantasy team I can tell you I'm pretty angry they aren't using this monster .
what the fuck Niza? XD XD XD XD Wasn't there also a coach's poll in 2007 saying Guemchi was going to be the next big protoss, with Best getting 3% of the vote, and then the next year Best went on a PvP and also PvT spree?
Also, Flash should be getting better once school is over right? =)
I'm more of the type where I sort of think the OLD OLD OLDER generation will come back and rock the house again... I may be dreaming but I can still see such things happening (especially with the upcoming Old Stars Tourny in July)
So basically rather listing the new ones, I'll just list who I think can possibly come back for another name and possibly title!
-BoxeR (he hasn't made one appearance yet ever since beginning of winner's league and with him, unpredictable + excitement)
-NaDa (never went full down and always and still is in the top ranks + the fact that he told WeMade for personal time to train rather than sticking in PL)
-sAviOr (for obvious reasons....... 2009...... i believe...)
Seriously, by the time Jaedong and Flash and Bisu kick the bucket on the top 3, none of our modern players will be around anymore (except possibly baby). Although yes, I do suppose that some players might surpass them, but this is not anything new. If anything, I'd have to give it to skyhigh or thezerg, if thezerg decides to play like he did in the OSL
I like HoeJJa and Thezerg, although it's probably wishful thinking. I still think that Thezerg will make a comeback (does winning his last two games against JangBi and HiyA count?)
On April 23 2009 07:02 anTi_ wrote: Does anyone notice that scwizard edits every single one of his posts.
And this is evidence of?
If you're going to call someone a liar for instance, saying "do you notice how often they look away when you speak to them" is not the best way to start forming a logical argument.
I wasn't trying to create an argument, I'm more or less in shock that you edit every single one of your posts and yet they are still pointless and retarded.
There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
You obviously know nothing about the average professional StarCraft career.
Yeah, Boxer and Elky are only 28, they are still dominant right?
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
That isn't really how the mind works...The greatest Strategists and Scientists of the 20th Cent. were all decently old men..
What Boxer suffers from isn't 'old age' but he has always had weaker macro and in a day and age where macro reigns in supreme, he has to really be creative to win, and he does quite well.
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
That isn't really how the mind works...The greatest Strategists and Scientists of the 20th Cent. were all decently old men..
What Boxer suffers from isn't 'old age' but he has always had weaker macro and in a day and age where macro reigns in supreme, he has to really be creative to win, and he does quite well.
Come on, Boxer hasn't "done quite well" in years. I mean...the last time he played a Starleague game was May 2007.
A combination of intense competition and rigorous practice demands are what make "generations" so short in professional StarCraft. Practicing full-time, non-stop is a difficult lifestyle to maintain, especially when every month there are new progamers on the scene who haven't been worn down by years of it. Stress injuries are a problem, but I think the real impediments to successful generation-spanning SC careers is mental.
Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
That isn't really how the mind works...The greatest Strategists and Scientists of the 20th Cent. were all decently old men..
What Boxer suffers from isn't 'old age' but he has always had weaker macro and in a day and age where macro reigns in supreme, he has to really be creative to win, and he does quite well.
Actually, the greatest scientists were most competent when they were young. As they grew older their celebrity status grew, but nonetheless their greatest work was done in their youth.
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time.
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time.
whats stopping the next generation then?
Because there have been no new "bonjwa". Why do you think "bonjwa" even existed? Do you understand the concept of advantages between micro vs. macro? SC began with micro masters, continued on to macro monsters, and has convalesced to people who demonstrate superior timing and can dominate both sides of the coin.
If it isn't obvious yet, pure macro is superior to more micro. It can actually be quantified through a mathetatical proof.
Idra, I'm just curious, how do you talk to people in real life?
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average. Nada completely DOMINATED his field during his bonjwa era with his macro and micro, which was in part a result of having such a huge APM. But then players who were more efficient with their APM and had a better game-sense came along. Someone like Flash has a lower APM, but an absolutely *incomparable* sense of timing. Nada can't even compare. His innovative vulture play has been emulated and even improved on by others. But there are no new units, no new builds, no new strategies in SC. Players have reached the *human* peak.
It's conceivable a Michael Jordan-type could come along and dominate everyone, but I wouldn't count on it. I could give you a physiological argument as to why, but the last time I started talking scientifically about race and genetics I was banned for a week. So I'm definitely not going there.
latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
yeah seriously that statement implies that latent has some magical knowledge that allows him to see the absolute pinnacle of what's possible in starcraft and we have hit it
considering how dumb everything he posts is we can discount that possibility
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
he was saying you, specifically, cant disagree with him because you dont know anything.
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
i said you were stupid and make up stupid analogies to back up your stupid claims and you take that as me calling you "level-minded"
what is wrong with you & also there ain't a white man alive that understands this game at the level that I do across all three races, and if there is, it certainly ain't you
you don't know anything about starcraft, stop posting, etc. every thread you post in turns into a bunch of people who have a much better idea of what the fuck they're talking about quoting your post and telling you how stupid what you just said is, and then you trying to argue with them using stupid comparisons and evidence that has no bearing on your claim whatsoever (not that you, personally, you the poster "latent", can tell)
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average.
I know I probably shouldn't egg you on, but July has probably the highest recorded apm to date at 843 against Hwasin I believe it was. On average though, he generally has a higher APM. July doesn't prefer one build over the other, he just plays whichever meta game he knows he can win with.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
i said you were stupid and make up stupid analogies to back up your stupid claims and you take that as me calling you "level-minded"
what is wrong with you & also there ain't a white man alive that understands this game at the level that I do across all three races, and if there is, it certainly ain't you
you don't know anything about starcraft, stop posting, etc. every thread you post in turns into a bunch of people who have a much better idea of what the fuck they're talking about quoting your post and telling you how stupid what you just said is, and then you trying to argue with them using stupid comparisons and evidence that has no bearing on your claim whatsoever (not that you, personally, you the poster "latent", can tell)
I'm Asian. Does that mean I can understand the game better than you now?
Also, as much as I dislike Idra, I'm guessing he has a better idea of some things than you.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
I'm sure people were thinking that a 'peak' existed with babe ruth too sir. It is all perspective. If you can't prove anything, then your debate is strawman and pretty much a waste of space. It isn't even an opinionated debate with you because you don't even provide where you draw these inferences from.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
guess what? starcraft was as popular in korea in 2004 as it is now. every current top player just so happened to start around or after that period as well, the difference being that right now there are far more rookies and amateurs, many of which achieve relative success pretty quick due to strong, innovative play
People used to think Nada's SK Terran was the perfect TvZ. People learned to beat it.
2hatch Zerg play became almost extinct for long period, and it has had a strong resurgence since the Hwasin vs Jaedong MSL semifinals and the Flash vs Jaedong GOM S1 finals.
Terran mech in TvZ was almost extinct for an extremely long time, and it reemerged.
The 2archon speedlot push was considered by some to be the "perfect" PvZ build not too long ago, and basically every Zerg player knows how to play against it.
I'm not sure how the game has ceased to show change and creativity. The general level of ZvZ has increased to ridiculous heights recently, in example.
On April 23 2009 16:57 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent i really wish you would like melt down or freak out somewhere so i could ban you, i really really wish you would
everything you post is so fucking stupid but you vehemently defend it with retarded analogies and observations
this is like the THIRD FUCKING TIME i have personally told you that you know nothing about this game and if you think for a split fucking second you can disagree with me about ANYTHING starcraft related you are out of your goddamned mind
stop posting
Yeah, I'm pretty level-minded. It helps to be that way when you're analyzing things. Thanks for the compliment.
No offense, but a lot of people disagree with you, especially in the "power ranks".
i said you were stupid and make up stupid analogies to back up your stupid claims and you take that as me calling you "level-minded"
what is wrong with you & also there ain't a white man alive that understands this game at the level that I do across all three races, and if there is, it certainly ain't you
you don't know anything about starcraft, stop posting, etc. every thread you post in turns into a bunch of people who have a much better idea of what the fuck they're talking about quoting your post and telling you how stupid what you just said is, and then you trying to argue with them using stupid comparisons and evidence that has no bearing on your claim whatsoever (not that you, personally, you the poster "latent", can tell)
I'm Asian. Does that mean I can understand the game better than you now?
Also, as much as I dislike Idra, I'm guessing he has a better idea of some things than you.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
I'm sure people were thinking that a 'peak' existed with babe ruth too sir. It is all perspective. If you can't prove anything, then your debate is strawman and pretty much a waste of space. It isn't even an opinionated debate with you because you don't even provide where you draw these inferences from.
There are companies out there that are paid good money to do extremely detailed analyses of players' swings. There was a recent article on ESPN about one such company which analyzed players' swings to determine the ratio of "perfect" swings that they produced. Manny Ramirez was cited as being the best at 6/10, with Pujols, ARod, and...I forget the 4th guy at about 5/10. They can use their software to demonstrate the improvement overall of players as the decades passsed. Basically, now that baseball has gone global, we've begun to reach performance peaks. The best players now are likely to continue to be among the best ever, whereas the best players back then....not so much.
There are physical limits to our human endeavors. Olympic records, although still being broken, have begun to plateau over the last couple of decades (look it up, fascinating read).
On April 23 2009 17:12 koreasilver wrote: People used to think Nada's SK Terran was the perfect TvZ. People learned to beat it.
2hatch Zerg play became almost extinct for long period, and it has had a strong resurgence since the Hwasin vs Jaedong MSL semifinals and the Flash vs Jaedong GOM S1 finals.
Terran mech in TvZ was almost extinct for an extremely long time, and it reemerged.
The 2archon speedlot push was considered by some to be the "perfect" PvZ build not too long ago, and basically every Zerg player knows how to play against it.
I'm not sure how the game has ceased to show change and creativity. The general level of ZvZ has increased to ridiculous heights recently, in example.
new generation ZvZ is a beautiful thing
unfortunately the advancements go virtually unnoticed, because it's ZvZ
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
I'm sure people were thinking that a 'peak' existed with babe ruth too sir. It is all perspective. If you can't prove anything, then your debate is strawman and pretty much a waste of space. It isn't even an opinionated debate with you because you don't even provide where you draw these inferences from.
There are companies out there that are paid good money to do extremely detailed analyses of players' swings. There was a recent article on ESPN about one such company which analyzed players' swings to determine the ratio of "perfect" swings that they produced. Manny Ramirez was cited as being the best at 6/10, with Pujols, ARod, and...I forget the 4th guy at about 5/10. They can use their software to demonstrate the improvement overall of players as the decades passsed. Basically, now that baseball has gone global, we've begun to reach performance peaks. The best players now are likely to continue to be among the best ever, whereas the best players back then....not so much.
There are physical limits to our human endeavors. Olympic records, although still being broken, have begun to plateau over the last couple of decades (look it up, fascinating read).
another long-winded post that has absolutely no relevance to professional starcraft
It's a shame. Ever since Jaedong stormed onto the scene, ZvZ has become so interesting with all the variations of builds that came up, the return of overgas builds, and fucked up improvements in micro.
On April 23 2009 17:12 koreasilver wrote: People used to think Nada's SK Terran was the perfect TvZ. People learned to beat it.
2hatch Zerg play became almost extinct for long period, and it has had a strong resurgence since the Hwasin vs Jaedong MSL semifinals and the Flash vs Jaedong GOM S1 finals.
Terran mech in TvZ was almost extinct for an extremely long time, and it reemerged.
The 2archon speedlot push was considered by some to be the "perfect" PvZ build not too long ago, and basically every Zerg player knows how to play against it.
I'm not sure how the game has ceased to show change and creativity. The general level of ZvZ has increased to ridiculous heights recently, in example.
new generation ZvZ is a beautiful thing
unfortunately the advancements go virtually unnoticed, because it's ZvZ
i agree, they (the advances) get noticed only when they spill over into other matchups. There's no way Jaedong could have scourged like 4 of Stork's sairs in three seconds of game 2 of EVER OSL if he hadn't been doing the same thing to mutas for so long. patrol micro these days is beginning to spill over as well, it's a lovely thing to see.
On April 23 2009 16:36 IdrA wrote: oov was pure macro and he was dethroned savior was very macro focused and he was dethroned
and jaedong is the closest thing to a dominant player at the moment and hes exceptionally micro focused
Jaedong demonstrates superior macro and micro to 95% of the field. He can take small advantages here and there with his micro, but with his 400+ APM he can BUILD ON THOSE ADVANTAGES by continuing to macro up. Advantages in economy can increase exponentially, whereas advantages in army can only increase as a square of the "amount" of advantage.
Savior never had the APM to macro up like Jaedong or by.hero.
Also, I would argue Bisu has better multi-tasking skills and "game-sense" than Jaedong, but that's just going on a limb. If you remember, Bisu rated Jaedong's defense as a "5". A lot of people considered that an insult, but from a relative standpoint it isn't entirely untrue.
Zergs are a race that inherently have weaker defenses than protoss and terran, and they have to be aggressive to stay competitive. Still, a weakness is a weakness.
you dont have to have high apm to have good macro savior and oov were both very slow players, relatively. savior was macro oriented, whatever you say, and no one can argue when it comes to oov.
do you have a point? yes, jaedong and bisu are better than everyone else at everything. the past top players were better than their competition at everything as well. what reason do you have to believe that we've plateaued now?
All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
I'm sure people were thinking that a 'peak' existed with babe ruth too sir. It is all perspective. If you can't prove anything, then your debate is strawman and pretty much a waste of space. It isn't even an opinionated debate with you because you don't even provide where you draw these inferences from.
There are companies out there that are paid good money to do extremely detailed analyses of players' swings. There was a recent article on ESPN about one such company which analyzed players' swings to determine the ratio of "perfect" swings that they produced. Manny Ramirez was cited as being the best at 6/10, with Pujols, ARod, and...I forget the 4th guy at about 5/10. They can use their software to demonstrate the improvement overall of players as the decades passsed. Basically, now that baseball has gone global, we've begun to reach performance peaks. The best players now are likely to continue to be among the best ever, whereas the best players back then....not so much.
There are physical limits to our human endeavors. Olympic records, although still being broken, have begun to plateau over the last couple of decades (look it up, fascinating read).
And yet, Chess and Warfare is never the same twice. Good thing physical peaks aren't really up for consideration when talking about Starcraft. I'm glad you know so much about things like baseball ball, but that really is the one of sports farthest from SC you could possible get. Fantasy has been creating a new game almost bi-weekly for lucky fans to watch or if you want to compare it to the new Yankees Stadium having a wind tunnel effect on the ball causing some insanely high scoring games - the game is never the same, so your analogy holds no ground.
On April 23 2009 17:19 koreasilver wrote: It's a shame. Ever since Jaedong stormed onto the scene, ZvZ has become so interesting with all the variations of builds that came up, the return of overgas builds, and fucked up improvements in micro.
it is a shame. jaedong excels in zvz because he can play any build and any style with magnificent skill. however, a lot of the things he has introduced or revived have become common among other zergs, and they're bringing their own stuff to the table as well in an effort to combat jaedong and his imitators. jaedong's dominance has brought zvz through an incredible advancement over the last year
It seems like one of the most important things Jaedong brought to ZvZ is his understanding of builds, and how even though you may be caught in what was traditionally thought as a disadvantageous build start, there is a certain timing in each build that you may use to overcome traditional disadvantages.
ZvZ build theory has become so complex nowadays, and I can not comprehend how some matchups work now.
Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
On April 23 2009 17:27 latent wrote: Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
No it is nothing like you said. People still play and watch Chess even though, you and your great opinion says there already was a best guy so why should anyone else play.
I don't understand where you are getting this, "no new talent pool" bullcrap. New rookies come in and topple older veterans on a seasonally basis. I mean, hell, they just finished a draft and two foreigners were over there this year. You and I have must have a different meaning because the term "new talent pool" means people who are new and good at the game.
On April 23 2009 17:27 latent wrote: Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
the countless B-teamers and amateurs (where every single progamer started) who are not mechanically up to par yet don't count? there's a MASSIVE amount of uncovered potential in pro SC right now, moreso than ever before
so again we go back to you assuming that what's going on in the game right now is the peak of what's possible, when THERE'S A PLAYER NAMED FANTASY PROVING YOU WRONG EVERY TIME HE STEPS INTO THE BOOTH
Starcraft has been played in every corner of South Korea ever since it bloomed along with the PC Bang phenomena. Starcraft in South Korea has always had a very large talent pool. People you know, continued to get better and still continue to get better. Even the general level of skill in foreigners have increased tremendously over time.
Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Starcraft has been played in every corner of South Korea ever since it bloomed along with the PC Bang phenomena. Starcraft in South Korea has always had a very large talent pool. People you know, continued to get better and still continue to get better. Even the general level of skill in foreigners have increased tremendously over time.
Starcraft hasn't been played TO SUCH A COMPETITIVE LEVEL as it is now. Just listen to Boxer's story about how his parents didn't understand what a "pro gamer" actually did. The situation held true for many families even in later generations. No one considered pro gaming a "legitimate" thing to do with one's life, and that stigma towards it lasted for quite a while.
I'm not even going to bother quoting what you just said because I don't want to help spread idiocy and become an accomplish to making some poor soul become a retard.
Just know this, even I know as a Terran player, TvT matchup is not even close to PvP matchup. No one BO will beat another BO, which is why you get these long drawn out TvTs.
Jaedong will fall one of these days just like oov did and you'll find out how your foot tastes. When someone becomes so good at one thing and constantly is showing it off, it becomes easier to identify how to counter it, it is basic strategy.
That's due to the game evolving over time. Of course the players weren't as competitive as today, but that's because the game was young. It does not change the fact that the game took the entire country like the plague when it came out. I lived in Korea when the game came out, and professional gamers emerged in a very short time.
Starcraft has been played in every corner of South Korea ever since it bloomed along with the PC Bang phenomena. Starcraft in South Korea has always had a very large talent pool. People you know, continued to get better and still continue to get better. Even the general level of skill in foreigners have increased tremendously over time.
Starcraft hasn't been played TO SUCH A COMPETITIVE LEVEL as it is now. Just listen to Boxer's story about how his parents didn't understand what a "pro gamer" actually did. The situation held true for many families even in later generations. No one considered pro gaming a "legitimate" thing to do with one's life, and that stigma towards it lasted for quite a while.
The Majority of People in America still have a stigma against Hockey, but that doesn't change anything about it. Telling someone you're a hockey fan and not a football fan usually grants some looks or remarks, especially in the non-new england and non-northern areas. So what you might think about pro-gaming or not, doesn't change the fact that there is a talent pool and the ability to create new strategic depth.
Like, does he even realize how much all three of the Zerg matchups have changed the past year? If you look back at games in early 2008 and compare them to games played in early 2009, the differences are fucking huge. If all this happened in just one year, who's to say that things are not going to continue to change? Tons and tons of new players have emerged since the death of 2v2, and there are undeniable talent amongst these newcomers.
On April 23 2009 17:49 koreasilver wrote: Like, does he even realize how much all three of the Zerg matchups have changed the past year? If you look back at games in early 2008 and compare them to games played in early 2009, the differences are fucking huge. If all this happened in just one year, who's to say that things are not going to continue to change? Tons and tons of new players have emerged since the death of 2v2, and there are undeniable talent amongst these newcomers.
He probably realizes, he just doesn't care. None of his posts looked to past precedents, only current events; which is a great flaw when debating over competitive sports because the past really outlines the future. Even in a time of high apms, even foreigners having extremely high apm, slow and efficent apm is what stood on top.
On April 23 2009 16:47 Railz wrote: July could and has shown to be able to macro heavier (He also tends to just throw units away when he switches to this style but he has 2 very distinct styles) . Which makes sense by.hero can as well, seeing as how July is his Hyung. Being able to be strong, completely strong in one area is enough to storm your way onto the playing field, but not hold onto it. Nada is a prime example of this. Nada has shown he can have superior Macro and Micro then any opponent, he never relied on any one mechanic. He stormed his way onto the scene sure, but as for being dethroned? He never fell as hard as Savior or Oov that had.
July prefers low-econ builds because he's more confident in his micro. I don't know his APM, but I suspect it's lower than average.
I know I probably shouldn't egg you on, but July has probably the highest recorded apm to date at 843 against Hwasin I believe it was. On average though, he generally has a higher APM. July doesn't prefer one build over the other, he just plays whichever meta game he knows he can win with.
On April 23 2009 17:19 koreasilver wrote: It's a shame. Ever since Jaedong stormed onto the scene, ZvZ has become so interesting with all the variations of builds that came up, the return of overgas builds, and fucked up improvements in micro.
it is a shame. jaedong excels in zvz because he can play any build and any style with magnificent skill. however, a lot of the things he has introduced or revived have become common among other zergs, and they're bringing their own stuff to the table as well in an effort to combat jaedong and his imitators. jaedong's dominance has brought zvz through an incredible advancement over the last year
On April 23 2009 17:27 latent wrote: Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
the countless B-teamers and amateurs (where every single progamer started) who are not mechanically up to par yet don't count? there's a MASSIVE amount of uncovered potential in pro SC right now, moreso than ever before
so again we go back to you assuming that what's going on in the game right now is the peak of what's possible, when THERE'S A PLAYER NAMED FANTASY PROVING YOU WRONG EVERY TIME HE STEPS INTO THE BOOTH
Yes, seriously wtf. Fantasy proved us wrong by bringing back valkyrie and showing us how to actually use it efficiently, as well as creating new BOs such as the BO mentioned in the TLFE "The Terran Revolutionist" and the Valkyrie -> Marine/Medic BO. TvZ was never the same after Fantasy's TvZ in Incruit OSL. And how can you (latent) still say that we've already hit the pinnacle of Starcraft?
When Savior reigned supreme, we started thinking PvZ was impossible. Then Bisu stepped in.
Let's take a few steps back, and look at when Nada raped every single Zerg using the SK Terran build. Then Zergs learned how to counter it, and look at the present day, where even the most efficient and strongest Terrans going SK Terran have difficulty facing zergs (Jaedong vs Flash for Winner's League semifinals, is one amazing example).
Starcraft is constantly evolving. You may say we have reached the peak, but that peak is only bound within that certain era. The next era will push the boundaries so far players couldn't have even imagined a couple of years ago.
so much bashing on latent I haven't read it all yet and i guess much of the bash are called for but his initial post had some truth aswell, except i wouldn't use those exact ages etc.
I too think that the competition and the level of play is much higher today than it was for example back in 2004. Thats why we don't have bonjwas today imo, because there are too many players who have almost mastered the mechanics of the game. Sure there might be a new generation of players but its unlikely given that there wont be so much time now until sc2 is out, and jaedong flash and bisu are still pretty young and can easily continue to evolve for many years.
I think the reason why the previous bonjwas lost their bonjwa status was not because they grew old but because the competition and the level of play only gets higher and higher. Boxer was bonjwa in the earlier stages of the game due to his creativity and that the game was not evolved as much as it is now. He could never have become bonjwa today with his micro/macro/creativity even if he was as fast as he was in 2002.
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
thats the entire point they didnt fall from dominance because they got worse, they fell because the game evolved and better players took over
his first post claimed that the current players wont fall off because they wont start to get worse for another 10 years. thats entirely irrelevant, boxer and garimto didnt get worse either. other people just surpassed them.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
On April 23 2009 18:01 StylishVODs wrote: so much bashing on latent I haven't read it all yet and i guess much of the bash are called for \
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
So this post is actually pretty provocative and wrong. They are not raping faces anymore because they were never as good as the current topplayers are, not because they aged 6 years.
thats the entire point they didnt fall from dominance because they got worse, they fell because the game evolved and better players took over
his first post claimed that the current players wont fall off because they wont start to get worse for another 10 years. thats entirely irrelevant, boxer and garimto didnt get worse either. other people just surpassed them.
Ok it seemed like you were referring to them being old and therefor not able to compete anymore, but if thats the case then i agree with you. I was really hasty when reading this, ill take some time to look into the posts of this thread, seems like entertainement to me
I thought his first post was pointing out that flash jaedong and bisu are still very young and can keep "dominating"(they aren't really dominating except jaedong for zvz though but playing really well) for a long time and therefor this whole discussion about the next generation is pretty useless since starcraft2 will be out soon. I myself believe that starcraft can still evolve both strategically and mechanically however the difference won't be as huge as in the past, thus really mechanically strong players such as the three mentioned are not likely to get dominated by a "new generation" of players as the players in the past has.
A thread about who will be the next dominating generation should atleast wait to be made until the current dominating players aren't under 20 anymore or something like that, i mean flash is 16 he is the next generation.
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
Protip: when trying to advertise your "analytic skills", be sure you know the meaning of each of the words you are using.
Though it would be pretty cool if my analytic skills did supercede yours, because then you (with the help of my analytic skills) might be able to write a post that didn't make you look like a moron.
Ok so I read the thread. Latent, you cannot say that we have reached the peak of human potential. You can never say that without the results in hand and if starcraft 1 would have been played for another 10 years it would still evolve. And you are wrong about the starcraft strategy theory. Its a very strategic game, however what you mentioned about timings and to abuse them etc are correct.
I can understand why people get mad at you when you make suchs claims but I can also see that you are not stupid because alot of what you say is also very true. You just need to know when you're wrong, because you have been several times here although most people exagurate when they say that everything you say is wrong.
I agree with you that I don't think that starcraft will have a next generation of players, however its not because the peak is reached but rather that the mechanical level is so high today that the difference between a good mechanical player and a "bad" one is not big enough to let anyone dominate the scene for a long time. Thats why we have no new bonjwas today. But the biggest reason that I think we won't have a next generation of dominating players is simply because of the fact that starcraft 2 is coming and there might not be so much time left for players to evolve at starcrat 1.
But you can never say that anything is a fact. We just don't know yet, maybe a player will come along and dominate the scene again its very much possible but less likely than before.
The reason why older players are less likely to dominate is because if a player plays the game for 10 years, those 10 years are oppertunities for other players to evolve into a better player. Thats simple logic. Its less likely that a player will dominate for long than a short period of time because of the comptetition.
On a sidenote, fakesteve are you serious about understanding the game better than anyone else? I'm sure you have alot of understanding of the game, I can tell when reading the power ranks for example but to go from there into claiming such a position is abit wierd to say the least.
Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
On April 24 2009 03:07 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
This is one of the reasons why WC3 is dying/dead. Still using the same maps from what, 4 years ago?
On April 24 2009 03:07 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Main reason SC seems to be evolving is the constant changing of maps. I actually think the Koreans change maps too frequently. New maps mean slightly new (adapted) strategies and, most importantly, different timings (not only due to distance etc. but also due to mineral and gas availability). It's impossible to say that SC (the gameplay itself, i.e. because of players and increase in skill, and not because of new (or "new old") possibilities offered by new maps) either evolves or doesn't evolve, but I definitely think that if Koreans only played 1 map, SC would be dead (due to boredom, hence frequently new maps...), or at least really *not* evolving anymore and *really* only about who has the superior multitasking.
This is one of the reasons why WC3 is dying/dead. Still using the same maps from what, 4 years ago?
there are maps in the solo pool that have been there since release although, the solo pool is much better than the team game pools.
It's almost impossible to predict who the next top players will be, there's so many potentials and it will take a while for Jaedong/Bisu/fantasy to fall (Flash has been playing well overall but hasn't really done much since Bacchus).
Also I'd be very, very sad if SC2 meant the end of professional BW.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
Chill. I have never sworn at a person or insulted their intelligence. Despite being called a dumbf*** and other coarse words by the same few people over and over again, I have never blown up or so much as returned a flame at another person. I don't attach smiley faces or excessive "I thinks" to my posts, so I'm sorry if it comes across to you as "talking down". I have NEVER come onto a thread just to insult someone, as a few others have done repeatedly with me. I regularly express appreciation in other threads of people's works. Yet you single me out because a couple of foul-mouthed short-tempered users call me out for being "wrong", or call me a "moron" for a supposedly misused word?
If you really think something I'm saying is wrong, I'd be happy to debate it with you in a more interactive setting, like IRC, or something more personal like PM. I spend a lot of time thinking about what I say (most of it anyways). Cite me on almost anything I've said about a match, and I can give you very good arguments as to why what I said has significant merit. Please, I'd really appreciate it if you would carry on such a debate with me, especially away from the few who strive to create a flame war over it. I'm totally serious. Just PM me something you thought I said was incorrect, and we'll engage in a civil discussion over its positive and negative merits.
You have to understand I have never intended to throw a thread into disarray. Were it not for the ongoing flames of a few, my comments would either be ignored or accepted like anyone else's. Please do not unfairly blame me for their own mischief.
On April 24 2009 04:25 boring wrote: defenitly not fantasy
cuz he is only good when he has a lot of time to train. he reminds me of mind
I dunno about that, he's made the finals of the last 2 OSLs, including a 3-0'ing of Bisu and a good series against Jaedong, not to mention he has like 100% winrate vs Flash. All the recent times that Flash faced either Bisu or Jaedong he got his ass handed to him, and Flash's play has hardly changed at all, Bisu and Jaedong (and fantasy) seemed to have improved a lot.
For terran, I really think Fantasy is going to win at least 1 starleague before SCII comes out. Everyone has seen his games in the OSL BOx matches. His set playing is just amazing... he just has to get the 1 game. Skyhigh is obviously a big contender for upcoming terrans, we'll have to see how he does this season in MSL + hes already gotten past survivor beating FLASH Piano is probably going to get into at least the ro16 in MSL. He's got balls and good game sense.
Zerg... only name that comes up is Roro. I want to say by.great but he seems to only win in proleague. By.hero is good but he's gonna need more experience, + his ZvZ looked so mediocre even though it was against Jaedong.
Protoss - Movie and Pure When you watch these players in proleague you just know theyre gonna get big soon. I expect both of them to make at least the ro16 in MSL. They look intense when they play.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
...
There is next to zero timing in ZvZ, that's why saying Jaedong is good as ZvZ because he mastered the timings is ridiculous. There's like four timings: When to Lair, when to Hatch, when to move workers and when to attack with Zerglings. Of those four, only the latter requires any sense of timing whatsoever; even then it's far simpler than any timing in any other matchup. Often it's as simple as predicting when his eggs are going to be used for Mutalisks, which I myself can do almost perfectly at the C+ level.
The difficult part of ZvZ is figuring out which build is most likely and then countering that. The final piece of the ZvZ puzzle is coming back from a deficit after choosing the wrong build. Jaedong continually wins situations he shouldn't by using incredible micro, but moreso tactics.
Timing accounts for next to nothing in ZvZ and shouldn't really be mentioned.
Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
...
There is next to zero timing in ZvZ, that's why saying Jaedong is good as ZvZ because he mastered the timings is ridiculous. There's like four timings: When to Lair, when to Hatch, when to move workers and when to attack with Zerglings. Of those four, only the latter requires any sense of timing whatsoever; even then it's far simpler than any timing in any other matchup. Often it's as simple as predicting when his eggs are going to be used for Mutalisks, which I myself can do almost perfectly at the C+ level.
The difficult part of ZvZ is figuring out which build is most likely and then countering that. The final piece of the ZvZ puzzle is coming back from a deficit after choosing the wrong build. Jaedong continually wins situations he shouldn't by using incredible micro, but moreso tactics.
Timing accounts for next to nothing in ZvZ and shouldn't really be mentioned.
Isn't that more or less what latent said? "zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice." It comes down to micro and tactics (when and where to attack), both of which Jaedong is insane at.
Wouldn't you agree that a basic sense of timing is still an important part of ZvZ? Call it a sense of tactics, if you want, but knowing when and where an opponent will be weak is a crucial part of any match-up.
On April 23 2009 17:33 latent wrote: Starcraft isn't complex in terms of its "build orders". Chess, in terms of pure strategy, is far more complex (on a side note, go beats all). Starcraft's challenge lies in the timing of its builds, and the refinement of a player's understanding of those timing windows. Players will bring back old builds, refine the timings, and apply it to their matches. The reason Jaedong can be so dominant in ZvZ is because he's perfected those timings and micro control to the point that no one can overcome him. Fortunately for him, zvz has a smaller number of strategic possibilities and timing windows to practice. Most of the time it ends up being a match of pure micro. In the other mirror matchups, like PvP and TvT, there are a lot more strategic complexities to consider, which makes it harder to dominate.
Actually timing has next to nothing to do with Jaedong's ZvZ success. It's a balance of strategy and moreso tactics.
Take this as a warning, Dr. Feng's prodigy - I'm banning you the next time you say something ridiculously wrong while talking down to someone.
Chill. I have never sworn at a person or insulted their intelligence. Despite being called a dumbf*** and other coarse words by the same few people over and over again, I have never blown up or so much as returned a flame at another person. I don't attach smiley faces or excessive "I thinks" to my posts, so I'm sorry if it comes across to you as "talking down". I have NEVER come onto a thread just to insult someone, as a few others have done repeatedly with me. I regularly express appreciation in other threads of people's works. Yet you single me out because a couple of foul-mouthed short-tempered users call me out for being "wrong", or call me a "moron" for a supposedly misused word?
If you really think something I'm saying is wrong, I'd be happy to debate it with you in a more interactive setting, like IRC, or something more personal like PM. I spend a lot of time thinking about what I say (most of it anyways). Cite me on almost anything I've said about a match, and I can give you very good arguments as to why what I said has significant merit. Please, I'd really appreciate it if you would carry on such a debate with me, especially away from the few who strive to create a flame war over it. I'm totally serious. Just PM me something you thought I said was incorrect, and we'll engage in a civil discussion over its positive and negative merits.
You have to understand I have never intended to throw a thread into disarray. Were it not for the ongoing flames of a few, my comments would either be ignored or accepted like anyone else's. Please do not unfairly blame me for their own mischief.
people talk shit to you because you are fucking annoying. here's a short version of what's happened in this thread:
you say this:
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time. From a physiological standpoint, the body's reaction time only begins to decline at an average age of 37. The brain's decision making processes also begin to decline around 28.
Mind you, the amount of "decline" is extremely limited for the first several years. This is why we see highly successful NFL quarterbacks playing well into their 30s. This is also why they say you need to conduct your best research by the age of 35 if you hope to win a Nobel Prize.
which is not at all applicable to pro starcraft, as are 90% of the things you post in threads you decide to post in. You do not understand StarCraft, but you think you do, and you make weird nonsense analogies to things that exist in other mediums but don't apply to starcraft at all
you are basically saying that there will be no next generation because the top players now will not become shittier players for a long time. this implies that starcraft has reached its peak, which you have no evidence for besides your own understanding of the game, which is already established as be fucking terrible.
Idra replies:
On April 23 2009 15:33 IdrA wrote: rofl so thats why boxer and garimto are still raping faces than you for enlightening me
this points out the first thing that's wrong with what you said. you stated that since the new generation is still young, they will not become worse players and thus no new generation will be able to take over. idra points out that boxer and garimto are now bad compared to the top players despite both of them being within your stupid range of performance-restricting ages, which is magically 37+. boxer and garimto are both under the age of 37 and thus have not declined mentally.
then you say this:
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
let's ignore you pretending JWD isn't infinitely more qualified to talk about pro starcraft than you are. let's even ignore your stupid fucking claim that you 'doubt his analytic skills supercede your own'. Hint: your analytic skills are non-fucking-existent.
okay, so at this point you acknowledge that players have gotten better over time, including boxer and garimto. this is the first point of why you are wrong about the possibility of a next generation. it is true that players get better over time, and there are more players now than ever before, with access to better resources, more knowledgable coaches, and better facilities.
then there's this little exchange:
On April 23 2009 16:21 IdrA wrote: was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
On April 23 2009 16:22 latent wrote: Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
now, again ignoring how fucking thickheaded you are (HINT: YOU ARE TALKING TO IDRA) because you seem to be sensitive about it, here's your answers to his questions: yes, yes, yes. here are the correct answers, now pay attention here: NO, NO, NO.
the scene was not 'less competitive'. players were not as good as they are now, but the dominance displayed by nada, iloveoov, and savior was done through their own means of evolving the game beyond what their peers were playing. this is a natural evolution in starcraft and will continue as long as the game is played. YOU disagree because you think starcraft has reached some sort of magical skill cap, because you (and again, through your post history we have established that your analytic skills are nonexistent) see no possible way to improve upon the current standard of gameplay.
here now is the catalyst, posted by a player that is UNDENIABLY MORE INFORMED ABOUT STARCRAFT THEORY AND GAMEPLAY THAN YOU ARE:
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time.
whats stopping the next generation then?
so we have come full circle on this particular topic. you have stated that
a) there will be no new generation because players now are too good and will not decline before the age of 37 b) every oldschool bonjwa was only so dominant because they were better than everyone else
as i said above, they were better than everyone else because they evolved the game to a higher standard by themselves, introducing new ideas, theories, and techniques to the game. however, you are adamant this isn't possible. again, this relies on your own ability to judge what is possible in any and every situation that could possibly occur within starcraft. you seem to think you have figured it out, and no one will get better than the current top players.
if a player as brilliant as iloveoov can be surpassed through the evolution of gameplay, what makes you think YOU are qualified to say where the progression will end?
On April 23 2009 16:17 latent wrote: Isn't it obvious weaker players were dominant at a time when Starcraft was less competitive? Even Boxer says he's a better play now than he was at his "prime".
JWD, please don't reply to my posts anymore. I would greatly appreciate it. On the other hand, if you can prove you know more than me, then by all means go ahead. I highly doubt your analytic skills supercede my own.
was starcraft less competitive when nada dominated? oov dominated? savior? every previous generation was simply dominant because of lack of competition, but this current one is the real deal?
Um...yes, yes, and yes? APMs have gone up, strategies and timings have been refined, etc. Do you know ANYTHING about ANY PROFESSIONAL SPORT in the history of the world???
On April 23 2009 15:24 latent wrote: There will be no next generation for a very long time.
whats stopping the next generation then?
Because there have been no new "bonjwa". Why do you think "bonjwa" even existed? Do you understand the concept of advantages between micro vs. macro? SC began with micro masters, continued on to macro monsters, and has convalesced to people who demonstrate superior timing and can dominate both sides of the coin.
If it isn't obvious yet, pure macro is superior to more micro. It can actually be quantified through a mathetatical proof.
Idra, I'm just curious, how do you talk to people in real life?
here you are talking down to YOUR INTELLECTUAL SUPERIOR IN THIS MEDIA. you offer an incredibly simplistic overview of what starcraft is and attempt to pass it off as 'the obvious truth' to someone who KNOWS MORE ABOUT THIS GAME THAN YOU EVER WILL AND DISAGREES WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG. then you ask him how he talks to people in real life. but since you're so sensitive about what a braindead, arrogant piece of shit you are, let's move on before you start fucking crying or something.
On April 23 2009 17:08 latent wrote: All of Korea knows about and loves Starcraft. It's not going to become any bigger than it is in that country. Every scrub with even a tiny amount of talent and interest wants to be a pro SC player, and they all try to best their peers in competitions. There isn't some magical pool of unaccessed talent. Maybe if SC2 becomes truly global, we'll see even greater demonstrations of skills. But as for SC, I feel the peak has been reached. I can't "prove" it, and I'm not saying you should take my opinion for "fact". But this whole thread is about people's opinions, and supporting those opinions with "evidence". I can't help it if my opinion drives you bonkers.
here we see you denying the existence of amateurs and B team players and the effect of the advanced opportunity they are afforded compared to their predecessors. there is a bigger pool of untapped talent now than there has ever been, and becoming a top starcraft player is a process, not an instantaneous event. players who have not even appeared on proleague rosters yet may or may not end up as stronger players than jaedong or bisu have ever been. there is absolutely no way to tell, because they are undeveloped.
instead of talking only about untapped talent, i chose to present you with an evolution in starcraft that is happening RIGHT NOW:
On April 23 2009 17:27 latent wrote: Um...there aren't too many "new" strategies popping up in chess. Also I don't think anyone will dispute Kasparov was the greatest chess player known to play the sport professionally. With the emergence of international communication and travel, in the form of planes, phones, tv, etc., the greatest minds were all given relatively equal chances to flourish in a game of pure strategy.
It's just like I said with Korea having expanded to the far reaches of the country. There are no new talent pools to access from (unless SC2 goes global).
the countless B-teamers and amateurs (where every single progamer started) who are not mechanically up to par yet don't count? there's a MASSIVE amount of uncovered potential in pro SC right now, moreso than ever before
so again we go back to you assuming that what's going on in the game right now is the peak of what's possible, when THERE'S A PLAYER NAMED FANTASY PROVING YOU WRONG EVERY TIME HE STEPS INTO THE BOOTH
yeah, fantasy. fantasy who is morphing TvP into something fluid and dynamic rather than analyzation of your opponent to hit a certain timing window. fantasy who is introducing new aspects of TvZ that were unheard of six months ago. fantasy who revived iloveoov's old macro style in TvT with modern-day mechanics and decision making. fantasy, a player who is AT THIS CURRENT PERIOD OF STARCRAFT EVOLVING THE GAME BEYOND THE LEVEL OF BISU AND JAEDONG.
LET'S FUCKING RECAP:
You:
- assert that there will be no further evolution in starcraft while ignoring posts containing clear evidence that it's happening RIGHT NOW and the LARGEST POOL OF UNDEVELOPED TALENT THAT HAS EVER EXISTED ON PRO TEAM ROSTERS.
- give no reasoning other than retarded fucking analogies that have ZERO RELEVANCE in order to justify your wildly stupid claim. this attempt to dazzle us with similes and statistics blew up in your face the moment someone knowledgable decided you needed to shut the fuck up.
- talk down to the aforementioned knowledgable people
- refuse to acknowledge the fact that you're FUCKING WRONG, refuse to acknowledge that your only basis for stating that there will be no further evolution in starcraft is YOUR OWN ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT GAME THEORY, WHICH ARE PROVEN WRONG EVERY TIME SOMEONE QUOTES A POST YOU MAKE, BECAUSE YOU ARE ALWAYS WRONG, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND STARCRAFT AT ALL
this is why people talk shit to you, you half-wit piece of trash. STOP FUCKING POSTING.
You get him Fakesteve! That's a pretty long and angry post. I'm stopping midway to write this, and then i'll get back to it. edit: that was completely over the top in terms of aggressivity, but entertaining to read : )
Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
latent just PM'd me. oh no, latent, this is a fucking public outing, this will not be handled privately. it will not be my hand that bans you, for i have chosen to tell you how fucking stupid you are instead.
latent pm'd fakesteve:
Since you've raised this to a level beyond casual discussion, and are now attacking me personally, I figure it's best to continue this conversation privately. That, and I know you are waiting for me to say something offensive to you publically so you can feel justified in banning me. I've seen you run this joke of a play several times before in the Power Ranks.
Obviously, we are both terrible at this game. I have not put in the effort to develop the micro control needed to play at a high level. Every game I've seen you play also showed a very low level of play. That's fine, I just want to show that we are similar in terms of Starcraft skill.
We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play. Why do you think the smartest people go to the best schools? Because the peers and staff you surround yourself with improve your abilities, almost automatically. Surround myself with UNIVERSITY level Starcraft players has increased my ability to study the game. Have you ever stepped into a post-secondary institution, let alone had indepth discussions with one's students about Starcraft? Clearly this shows why you continue to attack me rather than address the facts at hand.
When the game is still going through innovation, the best players rise to the top. As innovation stagnates, it becomes hard to separate yourself. That's why there's no bonjwa right now, simple as that. And that's why there will never be a further generation of players beyond what we've acheived now.
It's really quite simple.
is this a joke? it's funny, it must be a joke. i'd like to draw attention to this line:
"We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play"
The first part is insulting. We are not similar in StarCraft knowledge. I am your superior in every fucking conceivable way. I didn't learn this game from Artosis, I learned this game by watching EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PROFESSIONAL GAME FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS. I have in me a vast knowledgebase of progaming theory, history, metagame, timing, strategy, tactics, every fucking aspect of this game. You have an elective class at berkeley taught by a C- protoss player. It makes me sick to see you drag an incredible name like yosh through the mud by associating yourself with him. yosh and artosis have been top competitive USA players for a long fucking time, they are more comparable to each other than to any other nonkorean player. but according to you, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY PLAY AT VIRTUALLY THE SAME SKILL LEVEL USING THE SAME KNOWLEDGE, Artosis is an old, washed-up talent. un-fucking-real.
Let me fucking tell you something: "UNIVERSITY" level starcraft player doesn't mean a goddamned thing. When I get around to playing StarCraft, I play with top nonkorean players, friends from msn and irc.. OH, AND SAINT[Z-ZONE] AND SEA[SHIELD]. You have no fucking idea who you're trying to compare yourself to here.
I'M failing to address the facts at hand? I post a GIANT FUCKING EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU ARE WRONG giving SPECIFIC EVIDENCE and showing LOGICAL FUCKING INCONSISTENCIES ON YOUR PART, and you respond with "i play with UNIVERSITY level players so clearly we're both bad players but I know more about sc than you".
Then, at the end, you CONTINUE THE LINE OF THINKING I JUST FUCKING DESTROYED, completely ignoring everything I said that paints a clear, concise picture of why you are fucking wrong.
On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote: Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
that doesn't make sense. that train of thought was present at every point when a new evolution occured. people thought no one would improve on what iloveoov brought. when july beat iloveoov, xellos remarked "it's impossible to beat a zerg when he plays so perfect". when savior was untouchable, we thought we had seen the ultimate limit of starcraft. Bisu came along, Flash came along, Stork reinvented aggressive PvT, Jaedong appeared, and now Fantasy is changing things.
These evolutions are not few and far between. they are constant and ever leapfrogging each other. what you see as stagnation is merely an increase in how rapidly evolution comes. there will always be a new breed, build orders are not the extent of starcraft.
On April 25 2009 00:43 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: latent just PM'd me. oh no, latent, this is a fucking public outing, this will not be handled privately. it will not be my hand that bans you, for i have chosen to tell you how fucking stupid you are instead.
Since you've raised this to a level beyond casual discussion, and are now attacking me personally, I figure it's best to continue this conversation privately. That, and I know you are waiting for me to say something offensive to you publically so you can feel justified in banning me. I've seen you run this joke of a play several times before in the Power Ranks.
Obviously, we are both terrible at this game. I have not put in the effort to develop the micro control needed to play at a high level. Every game I've seen you play also showed a very low level of play. That's fine, I just want to show that we are similar in terms of Starcraft skill.
We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play. Why do you think the smartest people go to the best schools? Because the peers and staff you surround yourself with improve your abilities, almost automatically. Surround myself with UNIVERSITY level Starcraft players has increased my ability to study the game. Have you ever stepped into a post-secondary institution, let alone had indepth discussions with one's students about Starcraft? Clearly this shows why you continue to attack me rather than address the facts at hand.
When the game is still going through innovation, the best players rise to the top. As innovation stagnates, it becomes hard to separate yourself. That's why there's no bonjwa right now, simple as that. And that's why there will never be a further generation of players beyond what we've acheived now.
It's really quite simple.
is this a joke? it's funny, it must be a joke. i'd like to draw attention to this line:
"We are also similar in Starcraft knowledge. Despite coming from two different backgrounds - you learned from old washed up talent like Artosis, and I've learned from the new thinking of Nimue's analytical play and Yosh's empyrical play"
The first part is insulting. We are not similar in StarCraft knowledge. I am your superior in every fucking conceivable way. I didn't learn this game from Artosis, I learned this game by watching EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PROFESSIONAL GAME FOR THE LAST SIX YEARS. I have in me a vast knowledgebase of progaming theory, history, metagame, timing, strategy, tactics, every fucking aspect of this game. You have an elective class at berkeley taught by a C- protoss player. It makes me sick to see you drag an incredible name like yosh through the mud by associating yourself with him. yosh and artosis have been top competitive USA players for a long fucking time, they are more comparable to each other than to any other nonkorean player. but according to you, DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY PLAY AT VIRTUALLY THE SAME SKILL LEVEL USING THE SAME KNOWLEDGE, Artosis is an old, washed-up talent. un-fucking-real.
Let me fucking tell you something: "UNIVERSITY" level starcraft player doesn't mean a goddamned thing. When I get around to playing StarCraft, I play with top nonkorean players, friends from msn and irc.. OH, AND SAINT[Z-ZONE] AND SEA[SHIELD]. You have no fucking idea who you're trying to compare yourself to here.
I'M failing to address the facts at hand? I post a GIANT FUCKING EXPLANATION OF WHY YOU ARE WRONG giving SPECIFIC EVIDENCE and showing LOGICAL FUCKING INCONSISTENCIES ON YOUR PART, and you respond with "i play with UNIVERSITY level players so clearly we're both bad players but I know more about sc than you".
Then, at the end, you CONTINUE THE LINE OF THINKING I JUST FUCKING DESTROYED, completely ignoring everything I said that paints a clear, concise picture of why you are fucking wrong.
Then you tell me it's "quite simple".
Huge douche move, Fakesteve. Both taking out of PM and writing in a way that would get you banned if you were not a mod.
i'm aware, it is a douche move, please accept it in this instance and forgive me. i also said i would not ban him, as addressing this in the manner i am should rightfully disqualify me from makin that decision
i feel it is necessary to lay this nonsense out on the table, because this guy has been posting in this manner since he registered across many threads. his pm to me was nothing but pontificating and talking down to me, which he was just warned about specifically by chill. i want him to address what he's done because there are many, many people who are sick of seeing it happen again and again. in that sense i'm one of the only people who can actually do this, but again, it does and should prevent me from taking any moderating action in this situation
On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote: Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
that doesn't make sense. that train of thought was present at every point when a new evolution occured. people thought no one would improve on what iloveoov brought. when july beat iloveoov, xellos remarked "it's impossible to beat a zerg when he plays so perfect". when savior was untouchable, we thought we had seen the ultimate limit of starcraft. Bisu came along, Flash came along, Stork reinvented aggressive PvT, Jaedong appeared, and now Fantasy is changing things.
These evolutions are not few and far between. they are constant and ever leapfrogging each other. what you see as stagnation is merely an increase in how rapidly evolution comes. there will always be a new breed, build orders are not the extent of starcraft.
flash is spoiling the minds of starcraft fans
This is kind of an interesting point. Starcraft will probably never truly stagnate, because it is complex enough that a definite metagame exists, which means there will always be a cycle that leaves room for players to innovate. On the flip side, Integral is probably right in saying that the rate of that innovation has hit its relative peak. We get something like bisu/flash/fantasy about once a year (or slightly more) with a few smaller changes per season. Compare to when the pro scene was in its infancy and players like rA were known most for having innovative player over other qualities.
On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote: Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
that doesn't make sense. that train of thought was present at every point when a new evolution occured. people thought no one would improve on what iloveoov brought. when july beat iloveoov, xellos remarked "it's impossible to beat a zerg when he plays so perfect". when savior was untouchable, we thought we had seen the ultimate limit of starcraft. Bisu came along, Flash came along, Stork reinvented aggressive PvT, Jaedong appeared, and now Fantasy is changing things.
These evolutions are not few and far between. they are constant and ever leapfrogging each other. what you see as stagnation is merely an increase in how rapidly evolution comes. there will always be a new breed, build orders are not the extent of starcraft.
flash is spoiling the minds of starcraft fans
This is kind of an interesting point. Starcraft will probably never truly stagnate, because it is complex enough that a definite metagame exists, which means there will always be a cycle that leaves room for players to innovate. On the flip side, Integral is probably right in saying that the rate of that innovation has hit its relative peak. We get something like bisu/flash/fantasy about once a year (or slightly more) with a few smaller changes per season. Compare to when the pro scene was in its infancy and players like rA were known most for having innovative player over other qualities.
actually that is mostly attributed to the average knowledge of the fanbase. while there is a higher level of homogenization in terms of skill nowadays, it's not as significant as you might think. the innovations of fantasy are directly comparable to the innovations of nal_ra, but the level of involvement and analyzation by fans is much higher now. boiling it down, the things ra was doing were merely different ways of accomplishing a predetermined goal. the homogenization of skill comes from the fact that the disparity in mechanics between top players isn't as large nowadays, but we actually hit that place in pro starcraft many years ago when Nada appeared and dominated. since those days, the mechanical aspects have been a requirement, not a luxury. keep in mind that while nal_ra was using clever build orders, he was exceedingly efficient in build timing and execution. the innovations by modern players are sometimes overlooked by us because we as fans more readily understand the logic behind them these days. that doesn't really effect the players themselves in any tangible way.
ra's innovations were new and exciting because in general the fan populous was ill-informed, in the sense that we didn't fully comprehend how he arrived at the conclusions he arrived at. we thought he was just doing whatever he felt like doing. fantasy's innovations are having (and will continue to have) a comparable effect on professional starcraft players, which is what we should be focusing on
why do all the most valuable identities for trolls put eyes and ells in their usernames
(I assume it was "iatent" who sent that PM)
Actually the funniest thing about this is that Latent is probably one of the easiest people to impersonate and troll under, because you can get away with any level of stupidity without revealing you are an impostor.
i will confirm that the PM was sent by iatent, all credit to chill for massively owning me
still, it should speak volumes about the actual poster latent that it didn't even occur to me for a split second that it might not be him. it read exactly like his other posts
i keep going back to my response to chill's fake PM and laughing, then immediately getting a feeling that i assume i'd get if i had an orgasm and the girl said "hahaha guess what i have a dick"
On April 25 2009 02:56 ]343[ wrote: <3 fakesteve. anyway, latent is posting like an intelligent but absolutely ignorant person whoa makes fail analogies. fun stuff.
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
Minus, perhaps you should read through some of my old posts. Very rarely does anyone ever argue with me. Mostly it's just a few people who go out of their way to insult me. I mentioned this to another person in a pm, but here it is again: "When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." --Cicero, Marcus T.
I've said so many times already, if you or someone else thinks I'm wrong, I'd be happy to have a civilized discussion over IRC or PM. No one takes up the offer. Why do you think that is?
And I'm sorry, but "expertly formed" is a matter of opinion. Whoever you idolize for their "expert" opinion on this forum is not involved in the pro scene and can offer no more authority than anyone else (with the exception of Idra, but read on).
Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there.
As for you Fakesteve, I won't harp too much on how the beginning of your "argument" rests on the biased assumption that my "history of posts" is incorrect. What irritates me is how you cherry picked quotes from my previous posts to further your own agenda, rather than addressing my arguments full on.
I specifically explained *how* Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov managed to dominate their respective fields, but you naturally avoided those explanations. Your so-called "evolution" of Starcraft is merely a gradual recognition from players that pure macro trumps pure micro, the subsequent migration to macro-oriented players, followed by those *few* who learn to excel in both areas.
One of your biggest problems is romanticizing Starcraft to be some sort of treasure of human creation, rather than recognizing it as a highly tweaked RTS *game*. The optimum build orders and timings have already been worked out. You're not likely going to see anything new anymore. What fascinates crowds aren't new builds, but skilled players who execute those builds the most effectively. A game between Flash and Jaedong won't demonstrate some fancy new build order, but simply showcase the skill of multi-tasking monsters who dominate the field with their superior mechanics. That's the difference between Boxer and Iloveoov's eras and today.
Your claim that Starcraft hasn't become more competitive... I'm not even going to respond to that, it's so blatantly ridiculous. So is your claim that Fantasy has evolved the game "beyond the level of Bisu and Jaedong". Please, save me the fanboyism.
With regards to Idra, I'm not out to insult his intelligence. He could be a genius or just average for all I know. Yet it's important to point out Korean scouts have historically chosen foreign players with strong mechanics over those who demonstrate clever gameplay and a deep understanding of Starcraft strategy. Starcraft is not chess, it's not differential calculus, it's not rocket science. Its strategy can be taught to players in a relative short time. In fact, players like Flash can dominate the scene at the young age of 15, not due to some genius tactical mind, but an exemplar mastery of timing windows and mechanics. In other words, Flash is not a young Erwin Rommel.
Your worst problem is your tendency to project onto others. I have never met anyone as blatantly arrogant as yourself, yet you reprimand me for "talking down" to others amidst your endless torrent of coarse language and tedious repetition of "you're wrong! you're wrong!".
I don't know who pm'd you, but it's hard not to sympathize with him.
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there.
I actually think FakeSteve acted like a huge douche (despite being trolled). I'm not a particular 'fan' of him nor do I praise his knowledge of Starcraft too much (I'm not saying he's lacking it though).
I will hate myself for jumping on the bandwagon of people insulting/disagreeing with you latent, but I expressed my point relating to yourself and in all honesty I believe
THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY TO REASON WITH YOU.
You are wrong. Live your life and die of old age thinking we're all idiots, better yet, don't post here anymore since we're too primitive to properly debate with you, as we obviously keep insulting you without addressing your excellent arguments.
I've said so many times already, if you or someone else thinks I'm wrong, I'd be happy to have a civilized discussion over IRC or PM. No one takes up the offer. Why do you think that is?
Because you're absurd and utterly blinded by your ego
Also your arguments aren't really arguments or facts. They're just things you say and keep insisting to be true, while absolutely everyone thinks you make no sense.
On April 25 2009 06:19 minus_human wrote: Also your arguments aren't really arguments or facts. They're just things you say and keep insisting to be true, while absolutely everyone thinks you make no sense.
Really? So despite the posts where I delve into a video and point out specific windows of opportunity for a player to do something, or the numerous times I mention the Korean commentators agree (and subsequent English commentators) with me, you think that a few angry band-wagon forum troll posts render my points irreparably incorrect? Brilliant.
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there.
Give me an example of the timing window.
Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend.
This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else.
Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant".
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there.
Give me an example of the timing window.
Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend.
This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else.
Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant".
You said these "timing windows" occur when ZvZ builds differ and "Jaedong has these timings down perfectly". This isn't what separates him from other good ZvZ players. The "timing windows" you mentioned are not a strength of Jaedong specifically because every other Zerg pro knows the timing differences between 9p and op or 12p and 12h. They really aren't that hard to understand and I would say just about every pro who is semi-decent at ZvZ are pretty equal when it comes to exploiting timings based on differing early game builds.
Jaedong is good at ZvZ because he possess the fastest reaction speed among all progamers. He said so himself in an interview, his practice and fast hands allow him to perform tiny micro tasks much sharper. This is critical in muta vs scourge or ling vs ling battles. You will see Jaedong pull or run workers or harass with lings just a split second faster than other pros, and this is often enough to save one or two drones which is the difference in most ZvZs. That's what separates him from other Zergs, not the magical timing window exploitation knowledge you claim.
As for the example you gave, it's is just one player losing a zergling and another player having more zerglings. Any D+ player can tell you that if someone loses a unit you will have more for a certain amount of time. That's obvious.
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance.
You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it.
Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there.
Give me an example of the timing window.
Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend.
This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else.
Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant".
This isn't timing at all. Seriously. By the classical definition of timing, it has no relevance to the situation at hand.
Timing is realizing someone has shifted their build in one direction, predicting when they're weak, and maximizing your attack for that moment. That doesn't apply if the window is NOW and you're just counter attacking to capitalize on your opponents mistake.
Seriously. It's like someone losing their first corsair to aggressive Hydras and then deciding you should go allin because they can't scout. That isn't timing.
On April 25 2009 06:16 minus_human wrote: Live your life and die of old age thinking we're all idiots, better yet, don't post here anymore since we're too primitive to properly debate with you, as we obviously keep insulting you without addressing your excellent arguments.
....
Because you're absurd and utterly blinded by your ego
nah I doubt it's last a lifetime... he'll fight a few more arguments.. hopefully win some of them.. some of them he'll lose but he'll think he won.. He'll feel right most of the time, but also very unhappy, frustrated, one against all, at war with the world.
I give him a year or two max of this kind of behavior..
Then one day he'll realize that the world is not about what he thought it's about.
On April 25 2009 05:57 latent wrote: One of your biggest problems is romanticizing Starcraft to be some sort of treasure of human creation, rather than recognizing it as a highly tweaked RTS *game*. The optimum build orders and timings have already been worked out. You're not likely going to see anything new anymore. What fascinates crowds aren't new builds, but skilled players who execute those builds the most effectively.
You fail to realize that there are new maps continuously being added to the map pools for all the leagues as old ones are removed. We ARE likely to see new things just because of this. Sure, if they only played on python and luna then innovation would be very rare at this point, to say the least. Did you miss the period of "The Perfect Build" ? Zerg players were dying left and right to a 4gate zeal/chon timing attack. That period was ended as the zergs evolved. Just because we aren't seeing MnM becoming the standard in TvP or arbiters in PvP doesn't mean that we aren't seeing anything new. New builds DO excite the crowds, just as the Fantasy build excited Teamliquid not so long ago.
A game between Flash and Jaedong won't demonstrate some fancy new build order, but simply showcase the skill of multi-tasking monsters who dominate the field with their superior mechanics.
Have you not seen many of the games between Jaedong and Flash? Jaedong vs Flash on Neo Harmony: 9 pool vs 14CC--mechanics sure as hell weren't important in that one. Flash vs Jaedong, GSL season 1: 2 hatch play completely dominates Flash. July vs BeSt, OSL finals: July, being the master of the metagame that he is, dominates BeSt through complete mental abuse.
On April 25 2009 06:16 minus_human wrote: Live your life and die of old age thinking we're all idiots, better yet, don't post here anymore since we're too primitive to properly debate with you, as we obviously keep insulting you without addressing your excellent arguments.
....
Because you're absurd and utterly blinded by your ego
nah I doubt it's last a lifetime... he'll fight a few more arguments.. hopefully win some of them.. some of them he'll lose but he'll think he won.. He'll feel right most of the time, but also very unhappy, frustrated, one against all, at war with the world.
I give him a year or two max of this kind of behavior..
Then one day he'll realize that the world is not about what he thought it's about.
Chill, I get what you're saying and I appreciate the feedback. My example wasn't the greatest or most illustrative, like the timing window a terran has against a protoss shifting to carrier tech. But the game wasn't just as simple as capitalizing on an opponent's mistake. JD's later spawning pool left him at a slight disadvantage in terms of forces to GGplay's earlier pool. It's similar to how a shift to carrier tech leaves a protoss at a unit disadvantage to a terran for a short while. Normally though the window of disadvantage is essentially nullified by the defensive positioning around the ramp and the close proximity to the hatchery: a zerg can hold the fort with those first 6 lings until more come out. Jaedong understands this (as do most zergs). But his micro mistake extended that timing window. If ggplay had waited 2 more seconds after killing that zergling he wouldn't have gotten through, right? It's not the same as a corsair getting killed because such a loss doesn't make a protoss user's physical defensive position any weaker (of course his map awareness and scouting intelligence is diminished, but that's a little different).
It's not a perfect example, I'm sorry about that.
Hey, I was talking to another user about the way I post. I'll try harder from now on not to sound so arrogant.
Everyone, including C newbies, knows the timing for 12 Pool vs Overpool vs 9 Pool. It's common sense that a later Pool gives you later Zerglings and a faster second Hatchery. Everyone know this. So unless you have intimate proof of a situation where Jaedong's timing is tighter than anyone else (which you haven't come close to demonstrating even theoretcially), I will just dismiss that point.
Timing implies some sort of forward thinking. I can't restate this enough until you address it. It's a buildup to when you have the best chance to win a battle. From your example, GGPlay killed a scout and then countered. Even if he attacked at the perfect time, that still doesn't imply timing, because his decision was made for him by Jaedong's mistake.
Again, timing is realizing something is coming, and shifting yourself to attack when you have made yourself strongest relative to your opponent. Show me how this occured in that ZvZ, or any ZvZ for that matter, above and beyond the concepts applied at C-level.
I could be wrong, but I don't think a C- newbie would be intensely aware of the slightly extended window to attack he would gain by killing that scout in this particular instance. He might not even properly rally his subsequent zerglings. It required foward thinking for GGplay to realize the one killed zergling would extend the window enough for him to break into JD's base. Otherwise he wouldn't have pounced on the opportunity without a moment's hesitation. His awareness only came through countless hours of practice. But anyways I'll try to find a better example.
Also please don't misunderstand. I didn't say JD's understanding of timing was the only thing Jaedong did better. I mentioned his superior micro, and that requires his 400+ APM, just like Bisu's dominance in PvP is partially the result of his 400+ APM and multitasking abilities. IIRC, Stork in an interview said he knew what he had to do but just couldn't move his fingers as fast as Bisu.
Yeah, that Jaedong vs GGplay game where Jaedong went overgas. I'm fairly sure that neither players gave a damn because regardless of who won or lost, Jaedong advanced and GGplay didn't. It's a terrible example to use for anything.
Drop this example because you're simply wrong. A-moving when you have move units and denied scouting doesn't warrant anything more than a passing comment. How timing relates to forgetting to rally I have no idea, so I'm not going to touch that.
I'm not misunderstanding; don't patronize me like that. Your own quote said Jaedong has two advantages: Perfect timing and greater micro. You are dismissing 50% of your argument after failing to prove it.
also starcraft will always show new build orders new tactics and strategys thats what make the game great or your just saying fantasy mech build is "old" and used for many years now
On April 25 2009 08:58 latent wrote: I wasn't patronizing you. I said I'd look for a better example.
Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong."
And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do.
Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players.
You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves.
I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it."
In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before:
1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously.
I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise.
I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself.
Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares.
On April 25 2009 08:58 latent wrote: I wasn't patronizing you. I said I'd look for a better example.
Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong."
And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do.
Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players.
You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves.
I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it."
In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before:
1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously.
I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise.
I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself.
Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares.
I've been watching pro gaming for around 6 months now. Although i did learn a lot from playing the game starting about a month ago. I'm pretty sure i could of understood the things i've learnt through watching.
On April 25 2009 08:58 latent wrote: I wasn't patronizing you. I said I'd look for a better example.
Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong."
And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do.
Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players.
You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves.
I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it."
In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before:
1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously.
I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise.
I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself.
Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares.
In real life you come off as much of an arrogant prick as I do on this forum. I would never stand in front of a classroom and call you out on it though. Thanks for displaying the Asian tact you so obviously learned during Japanese.
The majority of time I'm polite towards those who don't incessantly flame me. I don't know if you've noticed, but I don't call those people out by name so as to avoid actively generating flame wars.
And your analogy to speed chess *sucks*, so badly. The only form of speed chess that could be considered remotely similar to an RTS is bullet chess, but as even wiki points out: "Often bullet chess is so fast that tactics and skill are secondary to quick moves. Proper calculation of variants and positional playing are almost completely negligible and under USCF rules bullet games are not considered chess and not rated." Chess is far too complex and cerebral to let dexterity and speed play such a major factor in the outcome.
On that note *yes*, every RTS *is* simple. There are an extremely limited number of optimum builds (less than 10 per each matchup), which makes understanding the "nuances" associated with each build that much easier. You obviously *don't* understand anything about other sports, as your claim about the simplicity of pro football demonstrated. It's insane to say that the nuances of SC could only be understood by pros, and then to turn around and claim that the reason other sports' experts have never played the game professionally (like numerous MLB or NFL GMs) is because all other sports are too "physical". That's nothing but fanboyish drivel. You don't have a clue how cerebral every major sport becomes at the pro level. Even in SC there are coaches and assistants who've never played at such a high level. How could they when the competition has been continually increasing since the game's release? Do you think January should be disbarred from coaching because she never played with the highest level male players?
As for wasting my time arguing, you're right. I often wonder why I bother trying to convince a person who can't help but espouse the grandeur of their superior tactical mind. Analyzing the game is a release for me from my studies, but I became too involved when I was being insulted by arrogant potty-mouthed users. My argumentative nature is a fault of mine that I've had as far as I can remember. Don't tell me you're perfect.
And chill, you're right about the timing windows. I'm wrong. I should've been more careful when talking about ZvZ. My original point was that Jaedong knows when to exploit a player's weakness that results from weaker army composition, count, or positioning. I then got carried away talking about actual build timings. I'm sorry for wasting your time.
Haha, you say you never resort to ad hominem attacks and then you go so far as to make accusations about how I act outside the Internet?
Furthermore, when did I ever say I was perfect?
See what you did? You shifted the discussion to start pointing out all my flaws. I didn't even call you stupid or make any insults directly to you, but yet when I respectfully pointed out why your argument doesn't hold much precedence on TL, you point out how I'm supposedly an arrogant prick in Japanese class.
That's how you react towards every poster on TL. You've proven my point quite well with your response.
I'm going to ask politely that you leave IRL discussions to IRL. I really don't want to drag my opinion of you as a student into this, because it has nothing to do with this discussion.
I've said everything I needed to say. I'm not going to have a flame war with you over this because it's not my goal to have an epenis contest with you. Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for you and how hard you work in real life, and it's a shame to see just how emotionally disturbed you are by what people ON THE INTERNET think about you.
I was trying to give you very useful advice when I said "stop caring, it's the Internet." You're never going to see these people and you don't gain anything from flaring up and getting emotional about it.
Latent. You make thorough analyzes and sometimes have good arguements, but sometimes you continue spinning on arguements that are fundamentally flawed.
A Football, soccer or any other teamsport coatch is studying the players induvidually and as a team. A soccer-coatch, for exmample, is much more focused on the team as a whole than lets say one of the forwards. This will give the coatch a greater understanding on how to develop strategical play and teamplay overall than the player focusing mostly on himself and a few players around him. The forwards has no major responsibility for the backs of his team or the forwards of the opposing team.
An SC coatch is studdying the players induvidually but the same type of teamplay never occurs. A player will most likely know more about the three matchups that he's focusing on than the coatch who is focusing on 6 other matchups aswell.
Therefor you cannot compare them when you say that a football coatch knows more about the game than a player because in one situation you have the player being a small part of the complex game and in the other situation you have a player responsible for all the complexity of the game, because he's not involved in the other matchups.
You could argue wether a coatch knows more about the 9 matchups in general than the avarage player, but everything that can be applied to the 9 matchups can also be applied to the 3 matchups and since the player has less matchups to focus on his knowledge will be greater.
The SC coatch's task is not to develop complex strategies or explain timing windows for the player but rather to focus on other strengths such as building the players confindece. The better knowledge of how to affect a player in general to perform his best or the knowledge of rookiescouting etc are most likely held by the man responsible for such things; the coatch.
The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong.
When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite.
When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years.
As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex.
You cannot always compare starcraft to other sports and draw conclusions from that.
By simply watching the game you will most likely not develop greater knowledge than the player in that specific matchup, specially in starcraft where all the information isn't given to the viewer.
You cannot say when a game, as complex as starcraft, has reached the peak of its development.
On April 25 2009 20:46 StylishVODs wrote: 2, The starcraft isn't complex arguement.+ Show Spoiler +
The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong.
When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite.
When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years.
As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex.
Oh come on. That's probably exactly the kind of fanboyism latent is referring to. Neither SC, nor soccer is complex.
SC is more complex than other RTSes which is why it deserves its spot on the top, but it really has a LOT of flaws still and definitely can't be seen as perfection.
Do you know how stupid some professional soccer players are? (evident when they give really retarded answers in short interviews; there are some websites dedicated to this even). Do you know that even 11-12 y/olds can become SC progamers? (e.g. By.BaBy) Do you know that probably all of the SC progamers will have a very hard time finding jobs outside of e-sports when they retire? Or that they will have a hard time catching up with their educational "career"? Why would a "genius" like Nal_rA even bother with commentating after his retirement, although he didn't have any casting experience? That's because it's the best he could do: try to remain in the scene (and not continue real education), everything else would be way harder for him.
There's zero requirement for SC progamers to be smart (maybe some ARE, but they don't need to be at all). If you want to get into a Korean pro game team, the only thing coaches look at is if you're able to macro and multitask well during a long-lasting game (which is of course the most difficult thing to become good at, but it still has little to do with how smart you are or play)).
You give part of the reason why SC isn't complex in your post: SC is a game of limited intelligence. You only see part of what your opponent is doing (more so with good scouting and "game sense", but never every small detail), so you break the game down into basic patterns like in a ZvP "ok my sair scouted that he's going 3 hatch hydras so he'll probably try to attack in 1min with about 15 hydras and try to break my nat" and then you adapt your own build order accordingly e.g. by putting up 2 more cannons in the front and thus delaying your own tech a bit in the hope that you'll gain an economic advantage in the long run. If he comes with 20 hydras instead of 15 a few seconds later than you'd have expected, you'll still do the same thing because it doesn't matter. Every game is different, yes, but subtle differences usually don't matter at all. The players still break it down into basic patterns, and try to counter that basic pattern instead of what is really going on in the game because they can't see/know everything and/or because a slightly different situation usually doesn't matter much, or that situation will simply be dealt with proper micro or reaction (e.g. be quick to fly your vessels over your rines to avoid them becoming scourged when you didn't expect/see/scan scourge to appear right now).
Compared to soccer you'd have said "every game of soccer is subtly different, the players are always at different places etc., so it's really really complex!!11". In practice however, players apply a few basic teamplay patterns while being "skilled" or fit enough to run and shoot well, and that's the whole deal... of course few people ever achieve the "skill" of a pro soccer player but this has nothing to do with intelligence. As a matter of fact, many German soccer players for example are really retarded. There are websites dedicated to this... and famous quotes from really good soccer players giving insanely retarded answers in interviews. These guys are really fucking stupid. But if they were SC players you'd somehow try to fantasize over the theoretical complexity of each game situation and somehow relate that to genius, while the main reason they are good and you are not is because you aren't as physically ("mechanically") skilled as they are.
And as a side note, really smart people (maybe you had a few in your school or so...) tend to dislike such sports because they instantly recognize that it's mostly about physical fitness/competition and thus don't find it very interesting, probably boring (entertaining at best), while stupid people (you know, bad grades, bad manner, loudmouths, etc... the ones who have the most success with school girls) get really enthusiastic and involved with physical sports and have sport stars as their idols, while the smart ones would never care to look up to such people. It's of course a generalization, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I am surprised at how often I've seen this to be the case. And I'm not sure how much this could be applied to SC (which is of course not a REAL sport, but it also has a HUGE physical aspect to it...), which is why I marked it as a sidenote, you don't have to take this aspect overly seriously, but I think it's an interesting viewpoint.
Wow this thread is a such an amazing, great read. This should be like, the thread of the year.
Anyway, here are my thoughts.
Starcraft will not ever hit 'the furthest possible limit of evolution'.
It has way too many factors attributed to it, micro, macro, timing, players' individual game sense (making use of game/map mechanics to your advantage like block ramp with lurker eggs/statis so that you can buy more time to destroy an expo, destroying assimilators on maps like Troy at the right timing, etc), maps and so much more.
To cut things short, all aspects hav definitely evolved, but the current stage is still not at its peak. Back in the era of Boxer, we thought his micro was the best. Remember the famous quote by the MBC commentator in the game versus Yellow? "Why wouldn't the marines die?" Now everyone can perform the same, but back then, barely few people could manage to do the same. This may be because of the introduction of replays, VODs, FPVODs and casting, but it's also because players have learned how to do the same.
It's something like this: 5 years ago: Almost every was at Level 1, maybe some at 1.5 or 2.
Then a few players (Nada, for example) took it to the next level, and he was one of the top few that shined out as a Level 3 or 4.
Then, time passed, and everyone learned how to play like the higher-leveled players, and the 'average level' became 2~2.5.
Then, someone once again took it to the next level, like when Savior reigned supreme and took it to level 5.
Then everyone, after some time, got their 'average level' to 3~3.5.
Then yet another player takes it to the next level (Bisu), then the cycle repeats, and now it's Jaedong and Fantasy.
This will repeat in time to come, and there will be yet more people than ever, since there is an increased pool of players with untapped potential, who will push the game even further.
We may go 'wtf how did JD do that?' now, but maybe in another 5 years, who knows?
On April 25 2009 20:46 StylishVODs wrote: 2, The starcraft isn't complex arguement.+ Show Spoiler +
The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong.
When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite.
When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years.
As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex.
...
I never drew conclusion that complexity equals intelligencerequirement. I never mentioned anything about starcraftplayers being geniuses, however if you are smart it certainly will help you out.
I mentioned that the game in itself is very complex and therefor there is no end to the possibilities of development. The fact that decisionmaking is made in realtime, combined with the physical requirements, makes us unable to ever perfectly master the game. Therefor you can not say that its simple, and this leads to us not being able to ever tell when the peaks of our limits has been reached.
This has nothing to do with wether soccerplayers are smart or not.
On April 25 2009 20:46 StylishVODs wrote: 2, The starcraft isn't complex arguement.+ Show Spoiler +
The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong.
When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite.
When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years.
As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex.
...
I never drew conclusion that complexity equals intelligencerequirement. I never mentioned anything about starcraftplayers being geniuses, however if you are smart it certainly will help you out.
I mentioned that the game in itself is very complex and therefor there is no end to the possibilities of development. The fact that decisionmaking is made in realtime, combined with the physical requirements, makes us unable to ever perfectly master the game. Therefor you can not say that its simple, and this leads to us not being able to ever tell when the peaks of our limits has been reached.
This has nothing to do with wether soccerplayers are smart or not.
Actually, why does it even matter if soccer players are smart or not? Kind of curious. It's not like their intelligence directly affects their physical attributes... unless it involves their nervous system or something.
Then I misinterpreted what you wanted to express, sorry. One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics).
On April 26 2009 00:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote: One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics).
I beg to differ.
There are some plays, which Koreans tend to refer as 'sense', that cannot be copied like how you copy BOs, and is purely based off your own intuition and on-the-spot ability to think out-of-the-box. Like stasis block, mind controlling an overlord for detection (who did this? Can't really remember), using one zealot one shuttle to clear like 20 mines (micro plays an aspect here but...) instead of being contained when you don't have observers, on-the-spot reverse mine daebak, etc.
On April 26 2009 00:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Then I misinterpreted what you wanted to express, sorry. One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics).
No problem, I understand your view of complexity aswell. Yes, it is reduced alot. However the game is still as complex as it was in theory, its just harder to master it when you have the timeissue. You can always improve the quantityof smart moves in the game, which leads to smart counters and smarter recounters and in the end it will be so complex that we can never tell if a player has mastered the game or not.
I've got some more things to say about this matter but I'm going out now so Ill be back later take care.
On April 25 2009 19:15 latent wrote: In real life you come off as much of an arrogant prick as I do on this forum. I would never stand in front of a classroom and call you out on it though. Thanks for displaying the Asian tact you so obviously learned during Japanese.
Nobody was talking about race in this thread and you had to bring it to a personal level. Next time (in about 2 days) keep your racism out of the discussion, thanks.
who is this latent guy? Please no bansy I love this guy. hahah I read the Pony Express Issue 72 and maan this thread really did deliver. <3 Pony Express
Re: the original question: I think there is a lot of untapped potential among the younger progamers, even amateurs. Heck, even today's ICCup newbies could be tomorrow's champions: it just depends how much latent talent there is.
There has definitely been an increase in the skill level of players (and will be for time to come obviously). But I'd say the shifts in who is the 'best' at any given time in the future will have had as much to do with shifts in the meta-game and the way specific players approach specific match ups if not more than any marked increases in pure skill. Innovators tend to do well because they are unsettling.
The situation is not unlike professional tennis, which is hundreds of years old. Three years ago you couldn't look back at Sampras and say he only dominated because of lack of competition the likes of Federer... and that skill in tennis had plateaued with Fed's brilliance. Because then along comes a Nadal, the meta-game shifts and people are forced into new ways of approaching how to play the game. In other words, you'd be nuts to argue that Federer isn't a better player than Sampras... but also nuts to deny that Nadal plays the type of game that simply blunts Federer's (and a large number of other players) weapons which contributes heavily to his success.
But we should keep the discussion in a civilized level
To stay on topic: I think we have more than one bonjwa, if that is possible :p Jaedong and Bisu. Dunno how much Fantasy or SkyHigh will deliver, since I havent seen much of them. NaDa stayed on top for like 14 months, maybe Jaedong will too?
posting in epic thread. Chill's PM was priceless. Thankyou pony express.
Having skimmed posts from pg7 onwards, forgive me if this argument has already been made, but claiming that progress has "capped" is fundamentally flawed at a basic logic level. Saying that something has reached it's peak implies that you know the past and the future, and can pinpoint the peak with that knowledge. But it is impossible to know the future, so therefore you cannot pass that judgment.
lol if it wasn't for the amount of arrogance in people's posts, TL would have a lot less entertaining troll threads.
Offtopic: Being a lowly failskill starcraft hobbyist, I recognized that fantasy was good, but I didn't notice at all how he is making the game more fluid and altering the metagame. Could anyone of the expert mods do an in depth English commentary on one of his games? I'm sure it would be really helpful for newbs like me, especially since i doubt the sc2gg crowd would be able to achieve/deliver this anytime soon.
Wow, thank you pony express for directing me to this post.
I don't understand why posters (latent, and others) are so intent on using analogies to prove their points in this thread. Analogies are awful tools for proving your points in this context. This is a godamn starcraft forum, everyone on this site has enough knowledge about the game that arguments shouldn't have to be watered down by ridiculous comparisons.
On April 29 2009 11:36 Railxp wrote: Offtopic: Being a lowly failskill starcraft hobbyist, I recognized that fantasy was good, but I didn't notice at all how he is making the game more fluid and altering the metagame. Could anyone of the expert mods do an in depth English commentary on one of his games? I'm sure it would be really helpful for newbs like me, especially since i doubt the sc2gg crowd would be able to achieve/deliver this anytime soon.
It's hard to realize stuff like that while making a commentary on a fresh match. Usually making new tidbits of strategy and metagames can be observed if you go through of a series of recent games on that matchup, it's hard to do so on a single game.
On April 25 2009 07:59 Chill wrote: Everyone, including C newbies, knows the timing for 12 Pool vs Overpool vs 9 Pool. It's common sense that a later Pool gives you later Zerglings and a faster second Hatchery. Everyone know this. So unless you have intimate proof of a situation where Jaedong's timing is tighter than anyone else (which you haven't come close to demonstrating even theoretcially), I will just dismiss that point.
Timing implies some sort of forward thinking. I can't restate this enough until you address it. It's a buildup to when you have the best chance to win a battle. From your example, GGPlay killed a scout and then countered. Even if he attacked at the perfect time, that still doesn't imply timing, because his decision was made for him by Jaedong's mistake.
Again, timing is realizing something is coming, and shifting yourself to attack when you have made yourself strongest relative to your opponent. Show me how this occured in that ZvZ, or any ZvZ for that matter, above and beyond the concepts applied at C-level.
I think the one time in a JD zvz I can think of (in recent memory) where timing difference came into a big part (And indeed is probably the only thing you didn't mention) was Air Armor upgrade against effort. His attack was timed almost perfectly with his upgrade to the absolute deficit of Effort's.
Aside from that, latent is convincingly full of shit with his "zvz timing" arguments. JD's real advantage in zvz has and always will be his micro. That he argues shit like "GGplay's timing blah blah" when it was literally just more zerglings and all the other backwards ass stuff, I would wage money that he wouldn't be able to spot out the few actual timing differences that happen in peculiar zvzs, or any matchups for that matter.
You know I really want to see another big personality come onto the scene and shake things up. As much as I enjoy working with the shy types of the 'younger' generation of progamers (Horang2, BeSt, Fantasy etc.) there's no one who is very forceful in person. I've had to go elsewhere (Special Force Proleague.) to find truly out-going younger players who aren't afraid to be daring in photos or express their extroverted personalities (The eSTRO team who were formerly Esports United are a wonderful example of these types of players. Their leader Lee Howoo is one of the most confident players I've had the pleasure of working with. His equivalent in the eSTRO SC team is Sangho who is also a confident english speaker and all round nice guy.)
The SC players have their moments, but the players of the next generation are all focused and introverted in person - aside from By.Baby who is just a little baller.
On May 01 2009 10:12 NeverGG wrote: You know I really want to see another big personality come onto the scene and shake things up. As much as I enjoy working with the shy types of the 'younger' generation of progamers (Horang2, BeSt, Fantasy etc.) there's no one who is very forceful in person. I've had to go elsewhere (Special Force Proleague.) to find truly out-going younger players who aren't afraid to be daring in photos or express their extroverted personalities (The eSTRO team who were formerly Esports United are a wonderful example of these types of players. Their leader Lee Howoo is one of the most confident players I've had the pleasure of working with. His equivalent in the eSTRO SC team is Sangho who is also a confident english speaker and all round nice guy.)
The SC players have their moments, but the players of the next generation are all focused and introverted in person - aside from By.Baby who is just a little baller.
Perhaps their personalities will become more "spicy" per say in a year or two after they've had the time to fully realize themselves and build some confidence.
I'm a protoss player, but I have to say Fantasy, Skyhigh and Baby are very impressive O_o Bisu is good but damn... Fantasy is the new revolutioniser :-)
EPT
Jaedong, 
Flash and 
Bisu have lost their most recent game, I think it's a good time to consider what the next generation of great players may look like.
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