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Katowice25012 Posts
On April 25 2009 00:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote:
Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
that doesn't make sense. that train of thought was present at every point when a new evolution occured. people thought no one would improve on what iloveoov brought. when july beat iloveoov, xellos remarked "it's impossible to beat a zerg when he plays so perfect". when savior was untouchable, we thought we had seen the ultimate limit of starcraft. Bisu came along, Flash came along, Stork reinvented aggressive PvT, Jaedong appeared, and now Fantasy is changing things. These evolutions are not few and far between. they are constant and ever leapfrogging each other. what you see as stagnation is merely an increase in how rapidly evolution comes. there will always be a new breed, build orders are not the extent of starcraft. flash is spoiling the minds of starcraft fans
This is kind of an interesting point. Starcraft will probably never truly stagnate, because it is complex enough that a definite metagame exists, which means there will always be a cycle that leaves room for players to innovate. On the flip side, Integral is probably right in saying that the rate of that innovation has hit its relative peak. We get something like bisu/flash/fantasy about once a year (or slightly more) with a few smaller changes per season. Compare to when the pro scene was in its infancy and players like rA were known most for having innovative player over other qualities.
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Latent is pretty much an idiot from what I read.
The more we crush his stupid ego here, the sooner he'll get better and open his eyes.
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On April 25 2009 01:03 niteReloaded wrote:
Latent is pretty much an idiot from what I read.
The more we crush his stupid ego here, the sooner he'll get better and open his eyes.
I reaaaally doubt a forum can crush someone's ego...
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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is it so hard to admit that you are wrong? laten can not be reasoned. idiots can't be reasoned.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 25 2009 01:03 heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2009 00:47 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:On April 25 2009 00:42 integral wrote:
Yo fakesteve, isn't fantasy kind of an exception that proves the rule? How much more room for innovation do you think there is? There are only so many builds and strategies a player can use, and many of the various options have been completely standardized by now. How many players are exciting to watch for their innovation instead of their beastly performance? There is a diminishing returns curve in effect here -- though it remains to be seen just how much more can be done with Starcraft, I'm not holding my breath.
that doesn't make sense. that train of thought was present at every point when a new evolution occured. people thought no one would improve on what iloveoov brought. when july beat iloveoov, xellos remarked "it's impossible to beat a zerg when he plays so perfect". when savior was untouchable, we thought we had seen the ultimate limit of starcraft. Bisu came along, Flash came along, Stork reinvented aggressive PvT, Jaedong appeared, and now Fantasy is changing things. These evolutions are not few and far between. they are constant and ever leapfrogging each other. what you see as stagnation is merely an increase in how rapidly evolution comes. there will always be a new breed, build orders are not the extent of starcraft. flash is spoiling the minds of starcraft fans This is kind of an interesting point. Starcraft will probably never truly stagnate, because it is complex enough that a definite metagame exists, which means there will always be a cycle that leaves room for players to innovate. On the flip side, Integral is probably right in saying that the rate of that innovation has hit its relative peak. We get something like bisu/flash/fantasy about once a year (or slightly more) with a few smaller changes per season. Compare to when the pro scene was in its infancy and players like rA were known most for having innovative player over other qualities.
actually that is mostly attributed to the average knowledge of the fanbase. while there is a higher level of homogenization in terms of skill nowadays, it's not as significant as you might think. the innovations of fantasy are directly comparable to the innovations of nal_ra, but the level of involvement and analyzation by fans is much higher now. boiling it down, the things ra was doing were merely different ways of accomplishing a predetermined goal. the homogenization of skill comes from the fact that the disparity in mechanics between top players isn't as large nowadays, but we actually hit that place in pro starcraft many years ago when Nada appeared and dominated. since those days, the mechanical aspects have been a requirement, not a luxury. keep in mind that while nal_ra was using clever build orders, he was exceedingly efficient in build timing and execution. the innovations by modern players are sometimes overlooked by us because we as fans more readily understand the logic behind them these days. that doesn't really effect the players themselves in any tangible way.
ra's innovations were new and exciting because in general the fan populous was ill-informed, in the sense that we didn't fully comprehend how he arrived at the conclusions he arrived at. we thought he was just doing whatever he felt like doing. fantasy's innovations are having (and will continue to have) a comparable effect on professional starcraft players, which is what we should be focusing on
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United States12607 Posts
OH MY GOD
why do all the most valuable identities for trolls put eyes and ells in their usernames
(I assume it was "iatent" who sent that PM)
Actually the funniest thing about this is that Latent is probably one of the easiest people to impersonate and troll under, because you can get away with any level of stupidity without revealing you are an impostor.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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United States12607 Posts
ahahaha and poor FS wrote that entire recap/rant in response
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damn impressive trolling though, that PM was very well written in terms of writing ability.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
that was a magnificent troll
i will confirm that the PM was sent by iatent, all credit to chill for massively owning me
still, it should speak volumes about the actual poster latent that it didn't even occur to me for a split second that it might not be him. it read exactly like his other posts
i keep going back to my response to chill's fake PM and laughing, then immediately getting a feeling that i assume i'd get if i had an orgasm and the girl said "hahaha guess what i have a dick"
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On April 25 2009 01:30 JWD wrote:ahahaha and poor FS wrote that entire recap/rant in response
that huge post was a response to the actual poster latent, and i assume he will see it at some point
i eagerly wait and hope he is terrified by the wrath he may incur if he crosses me (still, will not ban him)
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
Holy shit... that was cash LOLLLL omfg.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
an unseen aspect of this is chill making me feel bad for posting the PM on irc before revealing himself
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United States12607 Posts
On April 25 2009 02:00 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
an unseen aspect of this is chill making me feel bad for posting the PM on irc before revealing himself
too good LOL
and FYI: chiii, chili, and chiil are all already registered (I tried)
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Braavos36388 Posts
LLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
omfg chills powers are growing
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This thread is for the books.
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United States11393 Posts
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That big post was brilliant though. It was something that was seriously needed.
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EPT
