EPT[spoilers] The next generation - Page 14
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25963 Posts
I'm not misunderstanding; don't patronize me like that. Your own quote said Jaedong has two advantages: Perfect timing and greater micro. You are dismissing 50% of your argument after failing to prove it. | ||
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cunninglinguists
United States925 Posts
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geegee1
United States618 Posts
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latent
United States428 Posts
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Latent, you can never know when the progamers have reached their peak. End of story. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On April 25 2009 08:58 latent wrote: I wasn't patronizing you. I said I'd look for a better example. Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong." And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do. Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players. You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves. I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it." In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before: 1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously. I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise. I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself. Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares. | ||
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EternaLEnVy
Canada513 Posts
On April 25 2009 13:31 Kyo Yuy wrote: Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong." And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do. Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players. You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves. I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it." In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before: 1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously. I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise. I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself. Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares. I've been watching pro gaming for around 6 months now. Although i did learn a lot from playing the game starting about a month ago. I'm pretty sure i could of understood the things i've learnt through watching. Not that i agree with the other guy. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
On April 25 2009 13:31 Kyo Yuy wrote: Pretty sure I told you, "When Chill and Stylish both say you're wrong, that's when it's time to consider you may actually be wrong." And no, I don't elevate every single TL poster on a pedestal or idolize them. Chill and Stylish really do know what they're talking about, they really do. Your argument to me was something along the lines of "Starcraft is actually a simpler game than football and it doesn't have any depth to it," to which I replied that Starcraft is actually a very complicated game like chess in which moves which look meaningless to most people (including expert analysts) can end up being extremely useful and meaningful, and even game altering, in the eyes of seasoned players. You mentioned something along the lines of how people who know the most about football/basketball/etc. are the people who watch and analyze videos of the players over and over again, and that these analysts actually have a deeper understanding of the game than the players themselves. And then you used that argument to tell me that a casual viewer can have the same or possibly greater understanding of Starcraft than the players themselves. I don't know much about sports and I'm not going to pretend I do, but as I've said to you before - my understanding of Starcraft has increased significantly from playing the game. There are so many decisions and subtle movements that you don't actually catch and realize until you play the game and realize for yourself "Oh, scouting a spinning cybernetics core does make me react a certain way depending on the time I scout it." In any case, I'll repeat the points I said to you before: 1) You're a D level Starcraft player on an extremely competitive Starcraft forum, telling 5+ year veterans of the game that your knowledge of the game is somehow on a deeper level than theirs are, and that their analysis of the game is incorrect. 2) You're theorycrafting about why players win or lose matches, and getting extremely worked up over people arguing your theories when it really doesn't matter because the point is Player X beat Player Y, and no amount of theorycrafting is going to change that fact. 3) You respond to one person flaming/trolling you by being aggressive to EVERYONE, even when some individuals ARE being respectful and pointing out your mistakes courteously. I've had my fair share of stupid people tell me stupid shit (someone once told me that Neo Harmony is not a zerg favored map in ZvP), and most of the time I IGNORE it. Because it's really not worth my time - I don't care, and if they're wrong someone else usually points it out or nobody really cares. But when a well respected member of TL tells me that my analysis is incorrect, I step down, because I really don't have the merit to argue otherwise. I don't see why you're so vehement about arguing out every single point and theory about why games turned out the way they did. You realize there's no way to convince a blind fanboy he's wrong, right? There's really no point - people are going to spam "It's 2009!" every time Savior wins a game right up until December 31st, so I don't go out of my way to tell people to stfu because they're going to keep doing it any way, and if I deliberately go out of my way to troll CJ threads I'm only going to make an ass out of myself. Bottom line: It's the Internet. Stop caring so much, because in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares. In real life you come off as much of an arrogant prick as I do on this forum. I would never stand in front of a classroom and call you out on it though. Thanks for displaying the Asian tact you so obviously learned during Japanese. The majority of time I'm polite towards those who don't incessantly flame me. I don't know if you've noticed, but I don't call those people out by name so as to avoid actively generating flame wars. And your analogy to speed chess *sucks*, so badly. The only form of speed chess that could be considered remotely similar to an RTS is bullet chess, but as even wiki points out: "Often bullet chess is so fast that tactics and skill are secondary to quick moves. Proper calculation of variants and positional playing are almost completely negligible and under USCF rules bullet games are not considered chess and not rated." Chess is far too complex and cerebral to let dexterity and speed play such a major factor in the outcome. On that note *yes*, every RTS *is* simple. There are an extremely limited number of optimum builds (less than 10 per each matchup), which makes understanding the "nuances" associated with each build that much easier. You obviously *don't* understand anything about other sports, as your claim about the simplicity of pro football demonstrated. It's insane to say that the nuances of SC could only be understood by pros, and then to turn around and claim that the reason other sports' experts have never played the game professionally (like numerous MLB or NFL GMs) is because all other sports are too "physical". That's nothing but fanboyish drivel. You don't have a clue how cerebral every major sport becomes at the pro level. Even in SC there are coaches and assistants who've never played at such a high level. How could they when the competition has been continually increasing since the game's release? Do you think January should be disbarred from coaching because she never played with the highest level male players? As for wasting my time arguing, you're right. I often wonder why I bother trying to convince a person who can't help but espouse the grandeur of their superior tactical mind. Analyzing the game is a release for me from my studies, but I became too involved when I was being insulted by arrogant potty-mouthed users. My argumentative nature is a fault of mine that I've had as far as I can remember. Don't tell me you're perfect. And chill, you're right about the timing windows. I'm wrong. I should've been more careful when talking about ZvZ. My original point was that Jaedong knows when to exploit a player's weakness that results from weaker army composition, count, or positioning. I then got carried away talking about actual build timings. I'm sorry for wasting your time. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
Furthermore, when did I ever say I was perfect? See what you did? You shifted the discussion to start pointing out all my flaws. I didn't even call you stupid or make any insults directly to you, but yet when I respectfully pointed out why your argument doesn't hold much precedence on TL, you point out how I'm supposedly an arrogant prick in Japanese class. That's how you react towards every poster on TL. You've proven my point quite well with your response. I'm going to ask politely that you leave IRL discussions to IRL. I really don't want to drag my opinion of you as a student into this, because it has nothing to do with this discussion. I've said everything I needed to say. I'm not going to have a flame war with you over this because it's not my goal to have an epenis contest with you. Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for you and how hard you work in real life, and it's a shame to see just how emotionally disturbed you are by what people ON THE INTERNET think about you. I was trying to give you very useful advice when I said "stop caring, it's the Internet." You're never going to see these people and you don't gain anything from flaring up and getting emotional about it. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
You make thorough analyzes and sometimes have good arguements, but sometimes you continue spinning on arguements that are fundamentally flawed. 1, The Football/SC arguement.+ Show Spoiler + A Football, soccer or any other teamsport coatch is studying the players induvidually and as a team. A soccer-coatch, for exmample, is much more focused on the team as a whole than lets say one of the forwards. This will give the coatch a greater understanding on how to develop strategical play and teamplay overall than the player focusing mostly on himself and a few players around him. The forwards has no major responsibility for the backs of his team or the forwards of the opposing team. An SC coatch is studdying the players induvidually but the same type of teamplay never occurs. A player will most likely know more about the three matchups that he's focusing on than the coatch who is focusing on 6 other matchups aswell. Therefor you cannot compare them when you say that a football coatch knows more about the game than a player because in one situation you have the player being a small part of the complex game and in the other situation you have a player responsible for all the complexity of the game, because he's not involved in the other matchups. You could argue wether a coatch knows more about the 9 matchups in general than the avarage player, but everything that can be applied to the 9 matchups can also be applied to the 3 matchups and since the player has less matchups to focus on his knowledge will be greater. The SC coatch's task is not to develop complex strategies or explain timing windows for the player but rather to focus on other strengths such as building the players confindece. The better knowledge of how to affect a player in general to perform his best or the knowledge of rookiescouting etc are most likely held by the man responsible for such things; the coatch. 2, The starcraft isn't complex arguement.+ Show Spoiler + The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong. When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite. When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years. As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex.
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
On April 25 2009 20:46 StylishVODs wrote: 2, The starcraft isn't complex arguement.+ Show Spoiler + The number of pre-mapped buildorders you plan to do in the beginning of the game is only a small part of the complexity of starcraft. You're main arguement is therefor based on a fact that is wrong. When playing a game of startcraft, the complexity of the game constitutes in almost every action a gamer has to make from start to finnish. Almost every move in a game affects the outcome of the game, and considering that the avarge game is 10+ minutes and the avarage apm today is really high the number of moves and decisions each game is huge and the different scenarios almost infinite. When you have a game with so many variables and outcomes you can never say that its simple. In this case its even more obvious since the game still develops after being so competitive for so many years. As for the buildordercount, you might be correct that there aren't really that many pre-mapped builds for each matchup however the small variations and adjustments of a build that you need to do are almost endless. Thus, every build in itself is far more complex. Oh come on. That's probably exactly the kind of fanboyism latent is referring to. Neither SC, nor soccer is complex. SC is more complex than other RTSes which is why it deserves its spot on the top, but it really has a LOT of flaws still and definitely can't be seen as perfection. Do you know how stupid some professional soccer players are? (evident when they give really retarded answers in short interviews; there are some websites dedicated to this even). Do you know that even 11-12 y/olds can become SC progamers? (e.g. By.BaBy) Do you know that probably all of the SC progamers will have a very hard time finding jobs outside of e-sports when they retire? Or that they will have a hard time catching up with their educational "career"? Why would a "genius" like Nal_rA even bother with commentating after his retirement, although he didn't have any casting experience? That's because it's the best he could do: try to remain in the scene (and not continue real education), everything else would be way harder for him. There's zero requirement for SC progamers to be smart (maybe some ARE, but they don't need to be at all). If you want to get into a Korean pro game team, the only thing coaches look at is if you're able to macro and multitask well during a long-lasting game (which is of course the most difficult thing to become good at, but it still has little to do with how smart you are or play)). You give part of the reason why SC isn't complex in your post: SC is a game of limited intelligence. You only see part of what your opponent is doing (more so with good scouting and "game sense", but never every small detail), so you break the game down into basic patterns like in a ZvP "ok my sair scouted that he's going 3 hatch hydras so he'll probably try to attack in 1min with about 15 hydras and try to break my nat" and then you adapt your own build order accordingly e.g. by putting up 2 more cannons in the front and thus delaying your own tech a bit in the hope that you'll gain an economic advantage in the long run. If he comes with 20 hydras instead of 15 a few seconds later than you'd have expected, you'll still do the same thing because it doesn't matter. Every game is different, yes, but subtle differences usually don't matter at all. The players still break it down into basic patterns, and try to counter that basic pattern instead of what is really going on in the game because they can't see/know everything and/or because a slightly different situation usually doesn't matter much, or that situation will simply be dealt with proper micro or reaction (e.g. be quick to fly your vessels over your rines to avoid them becoming scourged when you didn't expect/see/scan scourge to appear right now). Compared to soccer you'd have said "every game of soccer is subtly different, the players are always at different places etc., so it's really really complex!!11". In practice however, players apply a few basic teamplay patterns while being "skilled" or fit enough to run and shoot well, and that's the whole deal... of course few people ever achieve the "skill" of a pro soccer player but this has nothing to do with intelligence. As a matter of fact, many German soccer players for example are really retarded. There are websites dedicated to this... and famous quotes from really good soccer players giving insanely retarded answers in interviews. These guys are really fucking stupid. But if they were SC players you'd somehow try to fantasize over the theoretical complexity of each game situation and somehow relate that to genius, while the main reason they are good and you are not is because you aren't as physically ("mechanically") skilled as they are. And as a side note, really smart people (maybe you had a few in your school or so...) tend to dislike such sports because they instantly recognize that it's mostly about physical fitness/competition and thus don't find it very interesting, probably boring (entertaining at best), while stupid people (you know, bad grades, bad manner, loudmouths, etc... the ones who have the most success with school girls) get really enthusiastic and involved with physical sports and have sport stars as their idols, while the smart ones would never care to look up to such people. It's of course a generalization, and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I am surprised at how often I've seen this to be the case.  And I'm not sure how much this could be applied to SC (which is of course not a REAL sport, but it also has a HUGE physical aspect to it...), which is why I marked it as a sidenote, you don't have to take this aspect overly seriously, but I think it's an interesting viewpoint. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
Anyway, here are my thoughts. Starcraft will not ever hit 'the furthest possible limit of evolution'. It has way too many factors attributed to it, micro, macro, timing, players' individual game sense (making use of game/map mechanics to your advantage like block ramp with lurker eggs/statis so that you can buy more time to destroy an expo, destroying assimilators on maps like Troy at the right timing, etc), maps and so much more. To cut things short, all aspects hav definitely evolved, but the current stage is still not at its peak. Back in the era of Boxer, we thought his micro was the best. Remember the famous quote by the MBC commentator in the game versus Yellow? "Why wouldn't the marines die?" Now everyone can perform the same, but back then, barely few people could manage to do the same. This may be because of the introduction of replays, VODs, FPVODs and casting, but it's also because players have learned how to do the same. It's something like this: 5 years ago: Almost every was at Level 1, maybe some at 1.5 or 2. Then a few players (Nada, for example) took it to the next level, and he was one of the top few that shined out as a Level 3 or 4. Then, time passed, and everyone learned how to play like the higher-leveled players, and the 'average level' became 2~2.5. Then, someone once again took it to the next level, like when Savior reigned supreme and took it to level 5. Then everyone, after some time, got their 'average level' to 3~3.5. Then yet another player takes it to the next level (Bisu), then the cycle repeats, and now it's Jaedong and Fantasy. This will repeat in time to come, and there will be yet more people than ever, since there is an increased pool of players with untapped potential, who will push the game even further. We may go 'wtf how did JD do that?' now, but maybe in another 5 years, who knows? | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
I never drew conclusion that complexity equals intelligencerequirement. I never mentioned anything about starcraftplayers being geniuses, however if you are smart it certainly will help you out. I mentioned that the game in itself is very complex and therefor there is no end to the possibilities of development. The fact that decisionmaking is made in realtime, combined with the physical requirements, makes us unable to ever perfectly master the game. Therefor you can not say that its simple, and this leads to us not being able to ever tell when the peaks of our limits has been reached. This has nothing to do with wether soccerplayers are smart or not. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
On April 26 2009 00:02 StylishVODs wrote: I never drew conclusion that complexity equals intelligencerequirement. I never mentioned anything about starcraftplayers being geniuses, however if you are smart it certainly will help you out. I mentioned that the game in itself is very complex and therefor there is no end to the possibilities of development. The fact that decisionmaking is made in realtime, combined with the physical requirements, makes us unable to ever perfectly master the game. Therefor you can not say that its simple, and this leads to us not being able to ever tell when the peaks of our limits has been reached. This has nothing to do with wether soccerplayers are smart or not. Actually, why does it even matter if soccer players are smart or not? Kind of curious. It's not like their intelligence directly affects their physical attributes... unless it involves their nervous system or something. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics). | ||
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konadora
Singapore66072 Posts
On April 26 2009 00:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote: One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics). I beg to differ. There are some plays, which Koreans tend to refer as 'sense', that cannot be copied like how you copy BOs, and is purely based off your own intuition and on-the-spot ability to think out-of-the-box. Like stasis block, mind controlling an overlord for detection (who did this? Can't really remember), using one zealot one shuttle to clear like 20 mines (micro plays an aspect here but...) instead of being contained when you don't have observers, on-the-spot reverse mine daebak, etc. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On April 26 2009 00:32 0xDEADBEEF wrote: Then I misinterpreted what you wanted to express, sorry. One thing still remains though: the theoretical complexity you're referring to is reduced a LOT when playing in practice (and this enables even stupid players or players who do not know much about game details to become insanely good at the game as long as they copy the best BOs and have very good mechanics). No problem, I understand your view of complexity aswell. Yes, it is reduced alot. However the game is still as complex as it was in theory, its just harder to master it when you have the timeissue. You can always improve the quantityof smart moves in the game, which leads to smart counters and smarter recounters and in the end it will be so complex that we can never tell if a player has mastered the game or not. I've got some more things to say about this matter but I'm going out now so Ill be back later take care. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36372 Posts
On April 25 2009 19:15 latent wrote: In real life you come off as much of an arrogant prick as I do on this forum. I would never stand in front of a classroom and call you out on it though. Thanks for displaying the Asian tact you so obviously learned during Japanese. Nobody was talking about race in this thread and you had to bring it to a personal level. Next time (in about 2 days) keep your racism out of the discussion, thanks. | ||
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jeddus
United States832 Posts
(just kidding, just kidding) | ||
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