EPT[spoilers] The next generation - Page 13
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On April 25 2009 02:56 ]343[ wrote: <3 fakesteve. anyway, latent is posting like an intelligent but absolutely ignorant person whoa makes fail analogies. fun stuff. oxymoron. | ||
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tarpman
Canada719 Posts
On April 25 2009 01:05 Hammy wrote: I reaaaally doubt a forum can crush someone's ego... you haven't been on the internet very long, have you? | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
On April 24 2009 18:59 minus_human wrote: Latent, I'm sure everyone appreciates your good tempered attitude and calm, and your desire for reasonable debate while not insulting other people. These are qualities of a good poster and a smart person overall, however for some reason you blatantly contradict some expertly formed opinions by veterans to the progaming scene, to the game and to TLnet, and you do so with great perseverance. You seem a really decent person to me, but you're unbelievably stubborn. Learn to accept that you can be wrong, despite putting thought and effort in your opinion and in the way you express it. Minus, perhaps you should read through some of my old posts. Very rarely does anyone ever argue with me. Mostly it's just a few people who go out of their way to insult me. I mentioned this to another person in a pm, but here it is again: "When you have no basis for an argument, abuse the plaintiff." --Cicero, Marcus T. I've said so many times already, if you or someone else thinks I'm wrong, I'd be happy to have a civilized discussion over IRC or PM. No one takes up the offer. Why do you think that is? And I'm sorry, but "expertly formed" is a matter of opinion. Whoever you idolize for their "expert" opinion on this forum is not involved in the pro scene and can offer no more authority than anyone else (with the exception of Idra, but read on). Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there. As for you Fakesteve, I won't harp too much on how the beginning of your "argument" rests on the biased assumption that my "history of posts" is incorrect. What irritates me is how you cherry picked quotes from my previous posts to further your own agenda, rather than addressing my arguments full on. I specifically explained *how* Boxer, Nada, and Iloveoov managed to dominate their respective fields, but you naturally avoided those explanations. Your so-called "evolution" of Starcraft is merely a gradual recognition from players that pure macro trumps pure micro, the subsequent migration to macro-oriented players, followed by those *few* who learn to excel in both areas. One of your biggest problems is romanticizing Starcraft to be some sort of treasure of human creation, rather than recognizing it as a highly tweaked RTS *game*. The optimum build orders and timings have already been worked out. You're not likely going to see anything new anymore. What fascinates crowds aren't new builds, but skilled players who execute those builds the most effectively. A game between Flash and Jaedong won't demonstrate some fancy new build order, but simply showcase the skill of multi-tasking monsters who dominate the field with their superior mechanics. That's the difference between Boxer and Iloveoov's eras and today. Your claim that Starcraft hasn't become more competitive... I'm not even going to respond to that, it's so blatantly ridiculous. So is your claim that Fantasy has evolved the game "beyond the level of Bisu and Jaedong". Please, save me the fanboyism. With regards to Idra, I'm not out to insult his intelligence. He could be a genius or just average for all I know. Yet it's important to point out Korean scouts have historically chosen foreign players with strong mechanics over those who demonstrate clever gameplay and a deep understanding of Starcraft strategy. Starcraft is not chess, it's not differential calculus, it's not rocket science. Its strategy can be taught to players in a relative short time. In fact, players like Flash can dominate the scene at the young age of 15, not due to some genius tactical mind, but an exemplar mastery of timing windows and mechanics. In other words, Flash is not a young Erwin Rommel. Your worst problem is your tendency to project onto others. I have never met anyone as blatantly arrogant as yourself, yet you reprimand me for "talking down" to others amidst your endless torrent of coarse language and tedious repetition of "you're wrong! you're wrong!". I don't know who pm'd you, but it's hard not to sympathize with him. | ||
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AnyOne
Chile547 Posts
AND JD BISU AND FLASH ERA IS FAR FROM OVER | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On April 25 2009 05:57 latent wrote: Chill, there is a timing window involved in ZvZ whenever a player's build differs even slightly from another player's build. Jaedong has those timings down perfectly. But the number of those windows is small, which is why he can achieve a 90% win rate in the last half year, while PvP or TvTers max out around 75%. The rest of what I mentioned was his dominance of micro. I don't see anyone disagreeing with me there. Give me an example of the timing window. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
I will hate myself for jumping on the bandwagon of people insulting/disagreeing with you latent, but I expressed my point relating to yourself and in all honesty I believe THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY TO REASON WITH YOU. You are wrong. Live your life and die of old age thinking we're all idiots, better yet, don't post here anymore since we're too primitive to properly debate with you, as we obviously keep insulting you without addressing your excellent arguments. I've said so many times already, if you or someone else thinks I'm wrong, I'd be happy to have a civilized discussion over IRC or PM. No one takes up the offer. Why do you think that is? Because you're absurd and utterly blinded by your ego | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
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latent
United States428 Posts
On April 25 2009 06:19 minus_human wrote: Also your arguments aren't really arguments or facts. They're just things you say and keep insisting to be true, while absolutely everyone thinks you make no sense. Really? So despite the posts where I delve into a video and point out specific windows of opportunity for a player to do something, or the numerous times I mention the Korean commentators agree (and subsequent English commentators) with me, you think that a few angry band-wagon forum troll posts render my points irreparably incorrect? Brilliant. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend. This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else. Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant". | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36388 Posts
On April 25 2009 06:33 latent wrote: Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend. This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else. Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant". You said these "timing windows" occur when ZvZ builds differ and "Jaedong has these timings down perfectly". This isn't what separates him from other good ZvZ players. The "timing windows" you mentioned are not a strength of Jaedong specifically because every other Zerg pro knows the timing differences between 9p and op or 12p and 12h. They really aren't that hard to understand and I would say just about every pro who is semi-decent at ZvZ are pretty equal when it comes to exploiting timings based on differing early game builds. Jaedong is good at ZvZ because he possess the fastest reaction speed among all progamers. He said so himself in an interview, his practice and fast hands allow him to perform tiny micro tasks much sharper. This is critical in muta vs scourge or ling vs ling battles. You will see Jaedong pull or run workers or harass with lings just a split second faster than other pros, and this is often enough to save one or two drones which is the difference in most ZvZs. That's what separates him from other Zergs, not the magical timing window exploitation knowledge you claim. As for the example you gave, it's is just one player losing a zergling and another player having more zerglings. Any D+ player can tell you that if someone loses a unit you will have more for a certain amount of time. That's obvious. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On April 25 2009 06:33 latent wrote: Sure, but in the reverse. JD vs. GGPlay, JD's last ZvZ loss. Jaedong went for gas first, then spawning pool, whereas GGplay went for pool then gas. Jaedong sent out a zergling to scout, but some poor micro resulted in his losing that zergling. GGplay then used that tiny, tiny window of opportunity where he had a great enough force to overwhelm JD's lings to break into his main. What would normally happen? JD would save his ling, bring it back to his ramp, and defend. This is why Jaedong is so masterful at his mirror matchup. A tiny mistake in ZvZ can balloon into a victory for him or the opponent, and the lack of safe possible build orders and windows of weakness help Jaedong to avoid never making a mistake, or to capitalize on others' mistakes. That's not to downplay his ability. He still does what he does better than anyone else. Actually this game also illustrates another point of mine that I made in another thread, about "positive feedback" in SC. A point FakeSteve assumes is "irrelevant". This isn't timing at all. Seriously. By the classical definition of timing, it has no relevance to the situation at hand. Timing is realizing someone has shifted their build in one direction, predicting when they're weak, and maximizing your attack for that moment. That doesn't apply if the window is NOW and you're just counter attacking to capitalize on your opponents mistake. Seriously. It's like someone losing their first corsair to aggressive Hydras and then deciding you should go allin because they can't scout. That isn't timing. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
On April 25 2009 06:16 minus_human wrote: Live your life and die of old age thinking we're all idiots, better yet, don't post here anymore since we're too primitive to properly debate with you, as we obviously keep insulting you without addressing your excellent arguments. .... Because you're absurd and utterly blinded by your ego nah I doubt it's last a lifetime... he'll fight a few more arguments.. hopefully win some of them.. some of them he'll lose but he'll think he won.. He'll feel right most of the time, but also very unhappy, frustrated, one against all, at war with the world. I give him a year or two max of this kind of behavior.. Then one day he'll realize that the world is not about what he thought it's about. | ||
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Fontong
United States6454 Posts
On April 25 2009 05:57 latent wrote: One of your biggest problems is romanticizing Starcraft to be some sort of treasure of human creation, rather than recognizing it as a highly tweaked RTS *game*. The optimum build orders and timings have already been worked out. You're not likely going to see anything new anymore. What fascinates crowds aren't new builds, but skilled players who execute those builds the most effectively. You fail to realize that there are new maps continuously being added to the map pools for all the leagues as old ones are removed. We ARE likely to see new things just because of this. Sure, if they only played on python and luna then innovation would be very rare at this point, to say the least. Did you miss the period of "The Perfect Build" ? Zerg players were dying left and right to a 4gate zeal/chon timing attack. That period was ended as the zergs evolved. Just because we aren't seeing MnM becoming the standard in TvP or arbiters in PvP doesn't mean that we aren't seeing anything new. New builds DO excite the crowds, just as the Fantasy build excited Teamliquid not so long ago. A game between Flash and Jaedong won't demonstrate some fancy new build order, but simply showcase the skill of multi-tasking monsters who dominate the field with their superior mechanics. Have you not seen many of the games between Jaedong and Flash? Jaedong vs Flash on Neo Harmony: 9 pool vs 14CC--mechanics sure as hell weren't important in that one. Flash vs Jaedong, GSL season 1: 2 hatch play completely dominates Flash. July vs BeSt, OSL finals: July, being the master of the metagame that he is, dominates BeSt through complete mental abuse. Your knowledge of Starcraft is highly lacking. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On April 25 2009 07:26 niteReloaded wrote: nah I doubt it's last a lifetime... he'll fight a few more arguments.. hopefully win some of them.. some of them he'll lose but he'll think he won.. He'll feel right most of the time, but also very unhappy, frustrated, one against all, at war with the world. I give him a year or two max of this kind of behavior.. Then one day he'll realize that the world is not about what he thought it's about. Yep. Cool. Happened to me when I was 15 or 16 too | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
simply because all T matchups have been pretty much rock solid in the last x years of sc history, while pvz was always a bit wild. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
It's not a perfect example, I'm sorry about that. Hey, I was talking to another user about the way I post. I'll try harder from now on not to sound so arrogant. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
Timing implies some sort of forward thinking. I can't restate this enough until you address it. It's a buildup to when you have the best chance to win a battle. From your example, GGPlay killed a scout and then countered. Even if he attacked at the perfect time, that still doesn't imply timing, because his decision was made for him by Jaedong's mistake. Again, timing is realizing something is coming, and shifting yourself to attack when you have made yourself strongest relative to your opponent. Show me how this occured in that ZvZ, or any ZvZ for that matter, above and beyond the concepts applied at C-level. | ||
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latent
United States428 Posts
Also please don't misunderstand. I didn't say JD's understanding of timing was the only thing Jaedong did better. I mentioned his superior micro, and that requires his 400+ APM, just like Bisu's dominance in PvP is partially the result of his 400+ APM and multitasking abilities. IIRC, Stork in an interview said he knew what he had to do but just couldn't move his fingers as fast as Bisu. | ||
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