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Okay I updated everything and posted my move.
Voting for move 18 starts here.
I originally planned 17... a5 up till a few hours ago. But there's two reasons why I really didn't want to make it. Well, three. And only one of them is because I hate to be predictable. So in the end I changed my move the last minute and had to spend a few more hours in making sure of some of the sidelines.
The main reason to be honest was that a5 somehow made me cringe. It's that feeling that I had at tournaments, too when I played. When something isn't exactly as you'd like to and you feel like there should be something better, but not always clear why.
I had a few rougher weeks and I really tried not to let this game pass into being boring and predictable, so right now I felt I needed something new. These past days I erased all my previous plans and started from a blank page and our starting position after move sixteen/seventeen around three times. I hope it will have worth it in the end.
PS: It's also the first time we fell under 40 active players in a very long while.
PS II: On another note I will make another note about all the ideas I have for other activities, maybe make a few replies later. I also hope I won't forget sending out move reminders before I go to sleep. Since I'll stay up all night that timeframe can range wide, though.
PS III: omgwtfbbq I got the first post on the page again.
PS IV: Wow, I'm a dragoon now. I turned zealot through this thread to begin with.
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On October 23 2011 16:50 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +if you all want to free our bishop why didnt we take his knight with it...............
+ Show Spoiler +I have a hunch that he ll Rxb2 if we do that.
Someone kindly enlighten me as to why we cant do 18.Nf3? Sorry if its something obvious that i missed out >.<
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On October 23 2011 21:53 ffreakk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I have a hunch that he ll Rxb2 if we do that. Someone kindly enlighten me as to why we cant do 18.Nf3? Sorry if its something obvious that i missed out >.<
+ Show Spoiler +Think about the squares the knight can go to from f3.
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My tentative vote is 18. Nf1
+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out.
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On October 23 2011 16:50 Bill Murray wrote:+ Show Spoiler +if you all want to free our bishop why didnt we take his knight with it...............
+ Show Spoiler +Mainly because it drops the b2 pawn and gives black the initiative. He'll have the capacity for two Bishops aiming at our king side along with a rook on our 2nd rank, and a rook on g8. We would basically die.
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+ Show Spoiler +In your line 18.Nf1 c5 I don't like your move 19.Be3. After your Rxb2 20.dxc5 Ba6 21.Reb1 Reb8 22.Rxb2 Rxb2 23.Bd4 Rb5 at the very least black gets his pawn back. He also has other attractive options:
18.Nf1 c5 19.Be3 c4 and he can maintain a bind.
However, I think 18.Nf1 c5 is not much of a threat if we meet it with 19.dxc5 Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2. Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it.
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On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:My tentative vote is 18. Nf1+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out.
+ Show Spoiler +In your 18.Nf1 line: black can stop Bd2 by playing 18...Bd6 19.Ne3 c6. How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3?
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Funny how this turned into the only thread I really read for more than 2 posts in the matter of two months.
Also practically the only thing I do on TL. Don't even watch streams lately.
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On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:My tentative vote is 18. Nf1+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out. + Show Spoiler +In your 18.Nf1 line: black can stop Bd2 by playing 18...Bd6 19.Ne3 c6. How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3? I'm not ready to vote yet, but in your line, perhaps White can progress with + Show Spoiler +20. Ra2 ( freeing the Bishop from guard duty and perhaps preparing to double Rooks) given that the Ne3 guards against a move like ...Bc4. E.g. 18. Nf1 Bd6 19. Ne3 c6 20. Ra2 a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Rb1 Ba6 23. b4. PGN viewer
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My brain is sad. I've been imagining lines and I don't like most of them. I can say that we don't really have to worry about + Show Spoiler + if anyone's super concerned about that. I want to move a pawn but I'm unsure which one to move. I may come back to this topic and do a proper analysis before the deadline, but I might also just vote with the pawn move that has the most votes at that time.
Abstain
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On October 24 2011 08:52 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:My tentative vote is 18. Nf1+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out. + Show Spoiler +In your 18.Nf1 line: black can stop Bd2 by playing 18...Bd6 19.Ne3 c6. How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3? I'm not ready to vote yet, but in your line, perhaps White can progress with + Show Spoiler +20. Ra2 ( freeing the Bishop from guard duty and perhaps preparing to double Rooks) given that the Ne3 guards against a move like ...Bc4. E.g. 18. Nf1 Bd6 19. Ne3 c6 20. Ra2 a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Rb1 Ba6 23. b4. PGN viewer
+ Show Spoiler +Your line looks like it is just losing after 23...axb3. However, white doesn't have to play b4 so perhaps something like 18. Nf1 Bd6 19. Ne3 c6 20. Ra2 a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn.
I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify.
I also can't find a move to vote on yet. I don't like the looks of b3 or b4 so it seems like it has to be a knight move, and Nf1 is appealing. I don't hate Nf3 as much as you guys seem to: I don't see the knight being that much better on e3, which is where it ends up in pretty much every Nf1 line. On f3 it also defends our e1 rook, which helps tactically in some lines. However, e3 still is a better square so I can't decide. I can't decide whether Nb1 works better than Nf1, either.
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+ Show Spoiler + I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with 19. Ne3 then black plays 19... Kc6!, or 19. Rxe8 Kxe8, black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal.
+ Show Spoiler +I think we play 18. Rb1 now then 19. Nf3 if black plays 18.Bd6. All our pieces will be untangled then. I will abstain from voting now to have a better look at the position though
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Seems like some of you are a little confused after that last move.
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+ Show Spoiler +Rb1 is susceptible to Bf5 once he frees it with his king.
I'm saying Nf3 for a reason. The most important: defend our d4 pawn. He will plan to under mind it with c5 most likely. Nf3 also frees up our bishop. Doubling our rooks should be a strong priority as well.
In addition, I'm looking to play b4 followed by Bd2 to get more use out of it. All depends on his next move.
And b4 right off the bat is a bad choice as he hits it with a5.
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On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote:My tentative vote is 18. Nf1+ Show Spoiler +I posted a bit of analysis earlier, but I didn't get too far into this move for black. After looking at it for a bit, I think we need to free up our pieces. Here are some possibilities: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + 18. Nf3 moves the Knight out of the way, but why not just play Nf1 as Greggy suggests? It accomplishes the same goals as Nf3, but it gives better squares to the Knight as well as allows for better defensive options. 18... Bd6 19. Ne3 Rb3 20. Bd2
20...c6 21. Bc3 (Bb4 looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work) Ba6 22. Ng4 (22. Nf5 looks good too) and I think white has a slight advantage.
20...Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 (21...Rxd2 22. Nxf6+) 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair.
b4 runs into a problem it had early which is a5 (black can also probably play Bd6 still) 19. bxa5 Ba6 and it doesn't look like our position is the best. Nb1 with the intent of c3 looks interesting and if black plays 18...Rb3, white can counter with Nc3 which greatly weakens the move. 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 is an interesting end game and I'd say is a slight advantage for white. b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20.
18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however.
In summary, I think we have a lot of good options here, and I would be fine with either b3, Nf1, or possibly Nb1 if it ends up working out. + Show Spoiler +In your 18.Nf1 line: black can stop Bd2 by playing 18...Bd6 19.Ne3 c6. How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3?
In response to EvilNalu,
+ Show Spoiler +After 19...c6, I got 20. b4 a5 21. bxa5 Ba6 22. Bd2 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fb4yt.gif) 22...Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. 22...Rb3 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 will win white a pawn. I think b4 is safe to play once we rearrange the pieces.
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+ Show Spoiler +I think one additional bonus of Nf1 is that white can play Nf1-e3-c2, defending all of e1, b4, a3 and d4. Obviously the knight gets chased away by Bf5, but then bishop can't actually come to c5 until the knight leaves e3. Something along the lines of http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=746899P.S. Sorry if my analysis has been somewhat random and haphazard and shite recently, I've been looking at this between/during lectures -.-
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EPT
