TL Chess Match 4 - Page 104
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lightman
United States731 Posts
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hype[NZ]
Japan412 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards. So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3) | ||
GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
Won't we win in a trade if 18. f4 Bc5 ? We can take his rook with 19. Rxe8, and if he kills rook we can take his bishop?? If he Bxd4, we can move our rook anywhere on row 8 or Rxc8. Please explain x_x | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
![]() ![]() I counter Bill as an abstain so far. | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
I think it's very nice. Playing Re8 was already worth it. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 25 2011 09:00 GenesisX wrote: Won't we win in a trade if 18. f4 Bc5 ? We can take his rook with 19. Rxe8, and if he kills rook we can take his bishop?? If he Bxd4, we can move our rook anywhere on row 8 or Rxc8. Please explain x_x Bxd4 is with check. If we take the rook, he takes pawn and checks us and then we take his rook. | ||
cz
United States3249 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 25 2011 03:38 Bill Murray wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, for instance, I feel like in your line we can put him in a worse position than you think I explored it, and I don't see him making the move Rb3 when you make it, for instance What would he gain from that? We can easily defend that pawn as you showed in moving the knight subsequently In your other line you have him playing c6, so I'm just going to fucking stop there + Show Spoiler + So what would you play instead of Rb3? Rb5? Rb2? Ba6? Come on, stop giving half-arsed, half-true responses and come up with a decent line for once. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
OK, guys, here goes. Because our decision this move is so complicated, I took it on myself to organize the posted analysis into a tree. Never again! It was much more tedious than I'd expected it to be, and while there's value in having the analysis organized this way, it's just not worth it for one guy to do it by hand. We might discuss starting a Google document or something similar for us to post an analysis tree on. Meanwhile, for this move, although I thought about ditching the effort, I had already put so much into it that I persevered to the bottom of page 102 (which contains a substantial majority of the posted analysis). Here it is; hopefully some of you find it useful. Analysis tree (through the bottom of page 102) Important Note: "Summaries" are intended to reflect the state of the analysis, not some canonical assessment of the position. Thus, if the summary says, "After moves X, Y, Z, looks bad for White," all that means is that someone has come to that conclusion and no one has contradicted him. In other words, you should use this as a guide for what positions to look at, not what moves to vote for. + Show Spoiler [18. Nf1] + Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [18...c5] + + Show Spoiler [19. Be3] + given by greggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...Rxb2] + 20. dxc5 Ba6 21. Reb1 Reb8 22. Rxb2 Rxb2 23. Bd4 Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [23...Rc2] +Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White. + Show Spoiler [23...Rb5] + given by EvilNalu with the comment "at the very least black gets his pawn back". Diagram/PGN viewer However, I believe that EvilNalu overlooked the fact that Black's Bd7 is needed to defend f6. I don't see a way for Black to get his pawn back in this line. + Show Spoiler [19...cxd4] + Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White. + Show Spoiler [19...c4] +Summary: Looks very good for Black. + Show Spoiler [19. dxc5] + 19...Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 given by EvilNalu with the comment "Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it." Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote: Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it. After 19. dxc5 Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote: Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it. + Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] + + Show Spoiler [19. Ne3] + given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...Rb3] + 20. Bd2 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [20...c6] + given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21. Bc3] + 21...Ba6 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [22. Ng4] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [22. Nf5] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks good too After 21...Ba6 22. Ng4 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [21. Bb4] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work After 21. Bc3 Ba6 22. Ng4 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] + 21. Nxd5 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21...Rxe1] + + Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. + Show Spoiler [21...Rxd2?] + Summary: Black blunders the pawn and the exchange. After 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. After 20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. + Show Spoiler [19...c6] + given by EvilNalu Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote: How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3? + Show Spoiler [20. Ra2] + a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: + Show Spoiler [summary] +perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn. After 20... a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn. + Show Spoiler [20. b4] + 20...a5 21. bxa5 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21...Ra6] + 22. Bd2 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [22...Rb2] + 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. After 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [22...Rb3] + 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: will win white a pawn. After 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: I think b4 is safe to play once we rearrange the pieces. After 22...Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [21. Rb3] + 22. Re2 Ba6 23. Rb2 Reb8 24. Rab1 Bc4 25. Rxb3 Rxb3 26. Rxb3 Bxb3 27. Nf5 given by greggy as a good line for us. Diagram/PGN viewer After 20...a5 21. bxa5 Ba6 22. Bd2 Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] + given by dtvu Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote: I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with 19. Ne3 then black plays 19... Kc6! ... black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal. + Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] + 19...Kxe8 20. Ne3 given by EvilNalu Diagram/PGN editor On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify. On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote: I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with ... 19. Rxe8 Kxe8, black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal. + Show Spoiler [18...a5] + 19. Ne3 given by greggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] + 20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Bxa5 Rb3 22. Nc2 Bf5 23. Nb4+ Bxb4 24. Bxb4 given by greggy as a good line for us. Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...c6] + defending the pawn without exposing the King 20. Bd2 as in greggy's line after 19...Kc6 20. a4 locking down our Queenside and reactivating the threat to the b-pawn by eliminating our counter-threat to the a-pawn Diagram/PGN viewer While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position. After 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress. After 18...a5 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress. + Show Spoiler [18. b4] + Diagram/PGN viewer 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: ...it doesn't look like our position is the best. After 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: Others disagree with mastergriggy's assessment of the position....it doesn't look like our position is the best. + Show Spoiler [18. Nb1] + Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [18...Rb3] + 19. Nc3 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer Here mastergriggy says that "Nc3 greatly weakens the move [...Rb3]". However, I don't see an easy way for us to free our position while preserving the b2 pawn in this line. + Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] + 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white. After 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white. After 18...Rb3 19. Nc3, mastergriggy seems to like this line for White, but I think it is good for Black. + Show Spoiler [18. b3] + Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: 18...Bd6 given by mastergriggyb3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20. [Bb2] Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19. Bb2] + Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4 given by mastergriggy, who says, "[This line] gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however. Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however. + Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] + trading off Rooks to reduce the pressure on us and generally simplify the game 19...Kxe8 forced 20. g3 to forestall ...Bf4 (the move that led to Black's recapturing the pawn in mastergriggy's line following 19. Bb2) Diagram/PGN viewer As a plan for continuing to make progress here, we might be able to maneuver our Bishop into play via Bb2-c3, as A-tan suggests. Failing that, we might activate it via a4, Ba3, as I think someone suggested a long time ago, but I no longer remember who. + Show Spoiler [19. Re3] + a thematic move in general; here in particular, guarding against the mate threat and adding a defender to b3 Perhaps the most aggressive continuation for Black is 19...Bf4 20. Rxe8 Kxe8 Diagram/PGN viewer where the position's a little tight, but I believe that either 21. b4 or 21. Rb1 will allow us to end up keeping our pawn. we keep our pawn and trade off a pair of Rooks, although the board is slightly more open than after 19. Rxe8 (and Black's Bishops are correspondingly more annoying). After 18...Bd6 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. g3, we keep our pawn and trade off a pair of Rooks, while keeping the board somewhat closed. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
I vote for 18. b3. I prefer this to 18. b4, but I'm all right with the latter as well. I don't like the other moves being discussed as much, although if someone made a good case for 18. Re3, I'd be listening. As usual, the excellent jdseemoreglass has made a very cogent, rational post on our position, which after studying the position on my own, I find that I almost entirely agree with. The only place where I differ is in preferring 18. b3 to 18. b4, though perhaps that's just a matter of taste. Further details below. + Show Spoiler [rationale/thoughts on the position] + jd's post covers almost everything. To elaborate:
Therefore, my vote goes to b3, as the more flexible of our options for addressing Black's threat to lock down our Queenside. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
Move 18 votes + Show Spoiler [votes] + 18. Nf1: 2 (mastergriggy, EvilNalu) 18. Nf3: 1 (Cloud9157) 18. b4: 5 (Malli, jdseemoreglass, 18. h3: 0 ( 18. f4: 1 ( 18. Nb1: 1 (Chezus) 18. b3: 3 (wizard944, qrs, A-tan) Abstain: (hp.Shell, Bill Murray, timh) ![]() | ||
A-tan
United States6 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 25 2011 22:32 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler + OK, guys, here goes. Because our decision this move is so complicated, I took it on myself to organize the posted analysis into a tree. Never again! It was much more tedious than I'd expected it to be, and while there's value in having the analysis organized this way, it's just not worth it for one guy to do it by hand. We might discuss starting a Google document or something similar for us to post an analysis tree on. Meanwhile, for this move, although I thought about ditching the effort, I had already put so much into it that I persevered to the bottom of page 102 (which contains a substantial majority of the posted analysis). Here it is; hopefully some of you find it useful. Analysis tree (through the bottom of page 102) Important Note: "Summaries" are intended to reflect the state of the analysis, not some canonical assessment of the position. Thus, if the summary says, "After moves X, Y, Z, looks bad for White," all that means is that someone has come to that conclusion and no one has contradicted him. In other words, you should use this as a guide for what positions to look at, not what moves to vote for. + Show Spoiler [18. Nf1] + Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [18...c5] + + Show Spoiler [19. Be3] + given by greggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...Rxb2] + 20. dxc5 Ba6 21. Reb1 Reb8 22. Rxb2 Rxb2 23. Bd4 Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [23...Rc2] +Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White. + Show Spoiler [23...Rb5] + given by EvilNalu with the comment "at the very least black gets his pawn back". Diagram/PGN viewer However, I believe that EvilNalu overlooked the fact that Black's Bd7 is needed to defend f6. I don't see a way for Black to get his pawn back in this line. + Show Spoiler [19...cxd4] + Summary: greggy offered this as a good line for White. + Show Spoiler [19...c4] +Summary: Looks very good for Black. + Show Spoiler [19. dxc5] + 19...Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 given by EvilNalu with the comment "Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it." Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote: Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it. After 19. dxc5 Bxc5 20.Rxe8 Kxe8 21.b4 Bd4 22.Ra2 On October 24 2011 04:29 EvilNalu wrote: Because 18...c5 results in such simplifications, I think black has to avoid it. + Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] + + Show Spoiler [19. Ne3] + given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [19...Rb3] + 20. Bd2 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [20...c6] + given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21. Bc3] + 21...Ba6 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [22. Ng4] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [22. Nf5] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks good too After 21...Ba6 22. Ng4 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [21. Bb4] ++ Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks really interesting, but I don't think it'll work After 21. Bc3 Ba6 22. Ng4 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: I think white has a slight advantage. + Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] + 21. Nxd5 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21...Rxe1] + + Show Spoiler [summary] + On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. + Show Spoiler [21...Rxd2?] + Summary: Black blunders the pawn and the exchange. After 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. After 20. Bd2 Rxb2 21. Nxd5 Rxe1 22. Bxe1 Ke6 23.Ne3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: looks like white maintains his pawn in exchange for black having the Bishop pair. + Show Spoiler [19...c6] + given by EvilNalu Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 06:28 EvilNalu wrote: How does white progress here given that his bishop and knight can't move and Rb1 is now unavailable due to Bxa3? + Show Spoiler [20. Ra2] + a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: + Show Spoiler [summary] +perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn. After 20... a5 21. Bd2 a4 22. Bc3 On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: perhaps something like [the above] is viable, however the Bc3 lines aren't too appealing because we are basically turning our bishop into a big pawn. + Show Spoiler [20. b4] + 20...a5 21. bxa5 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [21...Ra6] + 22. Bd2 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [22...Rb2] + 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. After 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [22...Rb3] + 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: will win white a pawn. After 23. Ng4 Rxe1 24. Rxe1 Be7 25. Bb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: I think b4 is safe to play once we rearrange the pieces. After 22...Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [21. Rb3] + 22. Re2 Ba6 23. Rb2 Reb8 24. Rab1 Bc4 25. Rxb3 Rxb3 26. Rxb3 Bxb3 27. Nf5 given by greggy as a good line for us. Diagram/PGN viewer After 20...a5 21. bxa5 Ba6 22. Bd2 Rb2 23. Bb4 Bxb4 24. axb4 Rxb4 On October 24 2011 15:13 mastergriggy wrote: looks strong for white still since white we have an outside passed pawn and the knight isn't in the way anymore. It seems like the doubled a pawns aren't as big of an issue with the knight on e3 and no Bishop pair for black. + Show Spoiler [19...Kc6] + given by dtvu Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote: I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with 19. Ne3 then black plays 19... Kc6! ... black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal. + Show Spoiler [19. Rxe8] + 19...Kxe8 20. Ne3 given by EvilNalu Diagram/PGN editor On October 24 2011 09:59 EvilNalu wrote: I think we should also look at whether it makes sense to take 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 before playing Ne3 in these lines. Trades take the pressure off our e file and simplify. On October 24 2011 10:01 dtvu wrote: I don't like 18. Nf1 due to 18. ... Bd6, we would be on the back foot if we respond with ... 19. Rxe8 Kxe8, black frees up his white bishop for the h3 diagnonal. + Show Spoiler [18...a5] + 19. Ne3 Kc6 20. Bd2 given by greggy Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [20...Rxb2] + 21. Bxa5 Rb3 22. Nc2 Bf5 23. Nb4+ Bxb4 24. Bxb4 given by greggy as a good line for us. Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [20...a4] + 21. Bc3 Diagram/PGN viewer While we technically retain our extra pawn, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress in this position. After 19. Ne3 Kc6 20. Bd2 a4, it's hard for me to see a way to make progress. + Show Spoiler [18. b4] + Diagram/PGN viewer 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: ...it doesn't look like our position is the best. After 18...a5 19. bxa5 Ba6 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: Others disagree with mastergriggy's assessment of the position....it doesn't look like our position is the best. + Show Spoiler [18. Nb1] + Diagram/PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [18...Rb3] + 19. Nc3 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer Here mastergriggy says that "Nc3 greatly weakens the move [...Rb3]". However, I don't see an easy way for us to free our position while preserving the b2 pawn in this line. + Show Spoiler [18...Bd6] + 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 given by mastergriggy Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white. After 19. Rxe8 Kxe8 20. Nc3 On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: an interesting end game and I'd say ... a slight advantage for white. After 18...Rb3 19. Nc3, mastergriggy seems to like this line for White, but I think it is good for Black. + Show Spoiler [18. b3] + Diagram/PGN viewer On October 24 2011 04:17 mastergriggy wrote: 18...Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Nf1 Bf4 21. Bc3 Nxd2 22. Bxd2 Rxb3 23. Bb4 given by mastergriggy, who says, "[This line] gives back the pawn but gives white great mobility and he should be able to capitalize on the weak black pawns while maintaining all his pawns. Not sure how favorable this is for white however." As the given line is illegal, I do not know what line mastergriggy meant to give.b3 prevents 18...Rb3 and weakens 18...a5. Additionally, it allows white to respond to 19...Bd6 with 20. [Bb2] My bad with that last line Qrs, here's the corrected version without the five illegal moves for + Show Spoiler + b3: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4 And thanks for the wrap up Qrs, it's looking really nice. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 26 2011 01:17 greggy wrote: I covered it under "other moves". Basically, I think Nf1 has a lot going for it--and one important thing going against it, which I don't think has been adequately addressed.qrs, you haven't covered Nf1 ata all, and it's probably the most reasonable move white has (imho) + Show Spoiler + 18...a5, looking to lock down our Queenside, and in particular threatening to play ...a4. If Black gets in ...a4 before we have done anything about the pawn, I find it hard to see how we're going to make further progress in this game. You can look in the analysis tree I posted above for the main line that I think is problematic, under 18. Nf1 a5. Actually, now that I look again, we probably have good play in that particular line with 21. Rac1+, etc., but that's only because you have Black defending c6 with his vulnerable King. I'm not sure why you have him do that: the only gain I see is to open the c8-h3 diagonal for the Bishop, but there's nowhere useful for the Bishop to go along that diagonal anyway, for the moment. What's your plan after, instead, ...19 c6 with the intention of 20...a4? (diagram/PGN viewer.) As far as I can see, ...a4 cannot be prevented except by a4?! which is an interesting move, but looks a bit dubious in that it creates yet another weakness for us to look after. If we allow Black to play ...a4, on the other hand, we are left with a permanent weakness on b2, which Black can keep under pressure indefinitely, and I don't see a good plan to remove it. Do you? PS: Greggy, you've contributed a lot of helpful analysis to this game. Why don't you ever vote? | ||
Blazinghand
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United States25550 Posts
My thoughts: + Show Spoiler + our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions? I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 26 2011 01:25 mastergriggy wrote: Thanks for clarifying that, mastergriggy; I've corrected the line in the summary, and added a couple of sublines to show that we don't need to give up the pawn (unless I made a mistake).My bad with that last line Qrs, here's the corrected version without the five illegal moves for + Show Spoiler + b3: 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Bf4 20. Bc3 Bxd2 21. Bxd2 Rxb3 22. Bb4 And thanks for the wrap up Qrs, it's looking really nice. Thanks for the praise, too. This was by far the hardest and least fun write-up for me to do, and I don't see myself doing it again. On the other hand, I do think that it's very convenient to have all the analysis organized like that, so I think we should give some thought to coming up with a way to do the analysis collaboratively, in future turns--i.e. instead of everyone posting their own analysis as isolated lines, we have a central tree that everyone can edit (e.g. a Google Doc) and post their analysis at the appropriate spot on the tree. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote: In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +18.b4 + Show Spoiler + It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards. So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3) 20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer) From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good. Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours. What would your plan be in this position? | ||
hype[NZ]
Japan412 Posts
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote: In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler + 20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer) From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good. Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours. What would your plan be in this position? + Show Spoiler + If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8. So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook ![]() 22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas. We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line. ![]() That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On October 26 2011 01:57 Blazinghand wrote: So, It doesn't look like any move yet has a simple majority, and I'd rather not see a move with like 4-5 votes win. We should all take more time to consider each other's arguments and try to find a good line here and try to get a majority vote for a specific move. My thoughts: + Show Spoiler + our bishop is immobile due to the location of our b pawn and our knight, so we should move one of those pieces when we have the opportunity. Moving the knight seems to be the safest plan, which would probably make Nf1 our move, but I hate playing Nf1 since it's not a great spot for the knight-- it's just not blocking the bishop. Does anyone have any better suggestions? I'm not sure we can make any major pawn progress here, but the possibility of a simplification in our favor exists, so I'm going to, for the moment, Abstain, and Not Offer Draw. This is a good point. It's nice to see such a variety of moves, and that there is no clear majority. However, that also implies that we don't really have a clear plan or immediate goal here. I think our priority in this position is to eliminate our queenside cramp so that we can develop the bishop and connect rooks, which is why I am supporting the move b4. It is the most immediate and direct way of resolving our queenside cramp. The knight moves do nothing to aid this goal. It is possible that b3 is a good way to do the same thing, but it feels weaker for a few reasons: 1) With b3, black is still bearing down on our b-pawn, and we must defend it, which means a minor piece will be restrained. Playing b4 eliminates this problem. 2) If we play b4 a5 bxa5, black will eventually have to spend a tempo or two recapturing our a-pawn, giving an additional move or two to improve our position down the line. This isn't the case with b3. 3) Having a pawn on b3 will also eliminate the possibility of Nb3, which we have seen in a couple variations to be a strong move. 4) b4 is a more forcing move. It limits black's responses or options in a way that b3 doesn't. | ||
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