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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 106

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ffreakk
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2155 Posts
October 26 2011 16:29 GMT
#2101
read through some of the analysis in the thread :p.. After some thought, its

18. b3

for me.
Look. Only Forward. See. Only Victory.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 26 2011 18:50 GMT
#2102
On October 26 2011 20:01 greggy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=748012

These lines look pretty good, however I disagree with black's move 20 here. I think he would be better off playing:

+ Show Spoiler +
20. ... Rxd2 21. Bxa5 Rb5, and here we will get into some problems with our bishop. Bc3? Rb3 wins back a pawn. Bd2? Rc3 and black will likely win the a-pawn now. If a5? Rd3 wins the d-pawn.

There might be some improvements here that I'm not seeing, but overall I think Rxb2 is the stronger move for black.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Cloud9157
Profile Joined December 2010
United States2968 Posts
October 26 2011 19:00 GMT
#2103
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.
"Are you absolutely sure that armor only affects the health portion of a protoss army??? That doesn't sound right to me. source?" -Some idiot
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 19:03 GMT
#2104
On October 27 2011 04:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.
The problem arises if Black decides not to let us play all the moves that you're hoping to. + Show Spoiler +
After 18. Nf3 a5, we can't follow with b4 unless we want to lose a pawn.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 26 2011 19:30 GMT
#2105
On October 27 2011 03:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 20:01 greggy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=748012

These lines look pretty good, however I disagree with black's move 20 here. I think he would be better off playing:

+ Show Spoiler +
20. ... Rxd2 21. Bxa5 Rb5, and here we will get into some problems with our bishop. Bc3? Rb3 wins back a pawn. Bd2? Rc3 and black will likely win the a-pawn now. If a5? Rd3 wins the d-pawn.

There might be some improvements here that I'm not seeing, but overall I think Rxb2 is the stronger move for black.
The 20th move in question + Show Spoiler [move] +
(18. Nf1 a5 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2) ...a4
is the one I gave greggy in this post, which is why he included it in his line. It's certainly possible that I overlooked something even better for Black, especially as I wasn't looking at this position in depth, but I'm surprised to see you say that this line "look{s} pretty good".

The move I gave was one of the thematic moves in the position that I've been considering negate our advantage in all lines but those beginning with 18. b3 or 18. b4. If you actually think that this position looks pretty good for White, I'd like to know why, because if you see a way around the bind in this position, it might apply to other positions as well.
+ Show Spoiler [Why I don't think the position l…] +
This is the thematic bind that we've been talking about, isn't it? Black threatens the b2 pawn, which is more or less permanently immobilized because of the threat of ...Pxb3 after b3 or b4. Black can increase the pressure at will by doubling Rooks on the b-file, and he can easily dislodge defenders from a2 or b1 with his light-squared Bishop.

The practical upshot of this, as far as I can see, is that unless we want to give up the pawn which basically consists of our solitary advantage in this game, then at least one of our minor pieces is doomed to the passive, static role of guarding the pawn, and I can't see how we're supposed to make progress in the position if Black can use all his pieces, and we can't use one of ours.

It's true that on c3, the Bishop occupies a somewhat better square than it did on c1, which perhaps is why you like this better than other lines that featured ...a5-...a4, but I can't see how that ultimately makes a practical difference. A Bishop that can't move is a Bishop that's practically useless, offensively speaking, regardless of which square it is glued to.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
aphorism
Profile Joined February 2011
United States226 Posts
October 26 2011 19:41 GMT
#2106
18. b3
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 26 2011 23:22 GMT
#2107
On October 27 2011 04:30 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 03:50 jdseemoreglass wrote:
On October 26 2011 20:01 greggy wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=748012

These lines look pretty good, however I disagree with black's move 20 here. I think he would be better off playing:

+ Show Spoiler +
20. ... Rxd2 21. Bxa5 Rb5, and here we will get into some problems with our bishop. Bc3? Rb3 wins back a pawn. Bd2? Rc3 and black will likely win the a-pawn now. If a5? Rd3 wins the d-pawn.

There might be some improvements here that I'm not seeing, but overall I think Rxb2 is the stronger move for black.
The 20th move in question + Show Spoiler [move] +
(18. Nf1 a5 19. Ne3 c6 20. Bd2) ...a4
is the one I gave greggy in this post, which is why he included it in his line. It's certainly possible that I overlooked something even better for Black, especially as I wasn't looking at this position in depth, but I'm surprised to see you say that this line "look{s} pretty good".

The move I gave was one of the thematic moves in the position that I've been considering negate our advantage in all lines but those beginning with 18. b3 or 18. b4. If you actually think that this position looks pretty good for White, I'd like to know why, because if you see a way around the bind in this position, it might apply to other positions as well.
+ Show Spoiler [Why I don't think the position l…] +
This is the thematic bind that we've been talking about, isn't it? Black threatens the b2 pawn, which is more or less permanently immobilized because of the threat of ...Pxb3 after b3 or b4. Black can increase the pressure at will by doubling Rooks on the b-file, and he can easily dislodge defenders from a2 or b1 with his light-squared Bishop.

The practical upshot of this, as far as I can see, is that unless we want to give up the pawn which basically consists of our solitary advantage in this game, then at least one of our minor pieces is doomed to the passive, static role of guarding the pawn, and I can't see how we're supposed to make progress in the position if Black can use all his pieces, and we can't use one of ours.

It's true that on c3, the Bishop occupies a somewhat better square than it did on c1, which perhaps is why you like this better than other lines that featured ...a5-...a4, but I can't see how that ultimately makes a practical difference. A Bishop that can't move is a Bishop that's practically useless, offensively speaking, regardless of which square it is glued to.

Calling it good was probably an overstatement, however I can't help but feel that it's good to lock down the queen-side if we can manage to extricate our bishop and to connect our rooks. The idea is to shut down any possible counter play from Black. Although our bishop looks weak in this line, black really doesn't have a good plan or way to weaken our queen-side. Play would likely shift to the king-side and we could slowly maneuver our rooks and knight to a strong position before deciding when and where to make our break.

I guess it's just a tendency of mine to shut down any counter play when a pawn ahead and play a more closed position, especially when it's knight vs. 2 bishops.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 26 2011 23:26 GMT
#2108
On October 27 2011 04:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.

You are right, our problem is piece development. But you think black sliding over and taking the a-pawn is a problem... that's actually the best way to improve our piece development! Black would have to spend two tempi to recapture the pawn, giving us the time and the space to improve our pieces.

Besides, if black plays Ra8 right away, Nb3 is very strong. It guards both a5 and c5, and releases our hemmed bishop.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
October 26 2011 23:27 GMT
#2109
I feel that the problem with 18.b3 is that we aren't making the most pressing moves. When we are playing correspondence every move has to count, especially at this stage.

+ Show Spoiler +
For example, the plan with b3 is to leave the knight on d2 and play Bb2, however b2 is definitely not the best square for the bishop (much better is d2 or even f4, which the knight would be blocking us from playing). Even playing Bb2-c3 is kinda slow, and the bishop would have a lot more scope on d2 anyway.

Also I remember qrs (I think) saying that the knight is good on d2, as it can jump to many potentially useful squares, however the problem is it needs to defend the pawn on b3, so the knight is basically useless until we can play b4, even moreso since it hinders our bishop from reaching its best squares. I find that looking at lines where we play b3 just makes me wish we would play b4 instead haha.

e.g. the latest analysis of b3 goes 18.b3 Bd6 but already I don't think that black will play Bd6 here for the same reason that qrs pointed out my 20.Bd6 I gave in my initial analysis wasn't the best.
Black will probably want to connect rooks so I think it would go something more like:
18.b3 Ba6 19.Bb2 (it's the plan...) Bd6 and then what? Exchanging rooks just concedes the e-file to black and I feel we need to remove our weakness on b3 so (wait for it) 20.b4

people seem to think that after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 we have trouble defending that pawn, however from the lines I've seen it is black that is having trouble trying to capture the pawn, which we can surrender at an opportune moment anyway.

e.g.
On October 27 2011 04:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.


This is the kind of thing we don't even care about, because if black is taking the time to do this then we have 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Rb5 20.a4 Rxa5 21.Nb3 and we are still up a pawn and have the initiative which we should be able to convert into a winning position.

One thing that I've noticed in my analysis is that b2 isn't a great square for the bishop, so I'm liking the idea of playing b4 Nf1 even if black responds 18.b4 Ba6. I have a feeling that black won't be so willing to go along with 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 since he has trouble regaining the pawn in the lines I've seen, and also because he needs to connect his rooks to prevent Rxe8 Kxe8 ideas.

I feel that blacks pressure on the b-file is justified if we put the pawn on b3 and the bishop on b2, hence we should aim to play b4 to remove the b2 weakness, shift our knight to the kingside via Nf1 and place our bishop on a good square (d2 or even better f4)


Hopefully that's coherent, I kind of did it from memory haha. I think I might have rambled a bit but oh well.
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 23:36:35
October 26 2011 23:34 GMT
#2110
18. Nf1

+ Show Spoiler +
greggy's board convinced me. This move opens up a lot of options for our pieces especially for our bishop.
133 221 333 123 111
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 26 2011 23:38 GMT
#2111
On October 27 2011 08:27 hype[NZ] wrote:
I feel that the problem with 18.b3 is that we aren't making the most pressing moves. When we are playing correspondence every move has to count, especially at this stage.

+ Show Spoiler +
For example, the plan with b3 is to leave the knight on d2 and play Bb2, however b2 is definitely not the best square for the bishop (much better is d2 or even f4, which the knight would be blocking us from playing). Even playing Bb2-c3 is kinda slow, and the bishop would have a lot more scope on d2 anyway.

Also I remember qrs (I think) saying that the knight is good on d2, as it can jump to many potentially useful squares, however the problem is it needs to defend the pawn on b3, so the knight is basically useless until we can play b4, even moreso since it hinders our bishop from reaching its best squares. I find that looking at lines where we play b3 just makes me wish we would play b4 instead haha.

e.g. the latest analysis of b3 goes 18.b3 Bd6 but already I don't think that black will play Bd6 here for the same reason that qrs pointed out my 20.Bd6 I gave in my initial analysis wasn't the best.
Black will probably want to connect rooks so I think it would go something more like:
18.b3 Ba6 19.Bb2 (it's the plan...) Bd6 and then what? Exchanging rooks just concedes the e-file to black and I feel we need to remove our weakness on b3 so (wait for it) 20.b4

people seem to think that after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 we have trouble defending that pawn, however from the lines I've seen it is black that is having trouble trying to capture the pawn, which we can surrender at an opportune moment anyway.

e.g.
On October 27 2011 04:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.


This is the kind of thing we don't even care about, because if black is taking the time to do this then we have 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Rb5 20.a4 Rxa5 21.Nb3 and we are still up a pawn and have the initiative which we should be able to convert into a winning position.

One thing that I've noticed in my analysis is that b2 isn't a great square for the bishop, so I'm liking the idea of playing b4 Nf1 even if black responds 18.b4 Ba6. I have a feeling that black won't be so willing to go along with 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 since he has trouble regaining the pawn in the lines I've seen, and also because he needs to connect his rooks to prevent Rxe8 Kxe8 ideas.

I feel that blacks pressure on the b-file is justified if we put the pawn on b3 and the bishop on b2, hence we should aim to play b4 to remove the b2 weakness, shift our knight to the kingside via Nf1 and place our bishop on a good square (d2 or even better f4)


Hopefully that's coherent, I kind of did it from memory haha. I think I might have rambled a bit but oh well.

Those are all very good points, some of them are the points I've been trying to make. And yes, it was all coherent

Unfortunately there are several voters who just vote and leave and don't offer a reason, read through the analysis, or study the position. In a vote as close as this one, it's a big deal.

On October 27 2011 08:34 GenesisX wrote:
18. Nf1

+ Show Spoiler +
greggy's board convinced me. This move opens up a lot of options for our pieces especially for our bishop.

Are we looking at the same board? This is probably the worst variation we've seen in regard to bishop scope.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 02:55:21
October 27 2011 02:44 GMT
#2112
On October 26 2011 18:38 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?


Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol
+ Show Spoiler +
after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine

[image loading]

maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here

[image loading]

Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop)


Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor
+ Show Spoiler +
My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn.

I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. (sample diagram/line in PGN viewer).

Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative.



+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously when we deal with [the threat of Rxe1#] in whatever way we choose we should do it in the best way possible

In that position we can play 23.Bf4 which develops our bishop, attacks the Rb8 and also connects our rooks. Now black has a lot of threats to deal with 23...Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 and I can't really find a good move for black here since we threaten Re6+ again (after we play h3 or g3 to prevent further back rank mate threats).

e.g. 24...Rb3 25.h3 Kd7 (25...Rxa3? 26.Re6+)

diagram
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 27 2011 04:35 GMT
#2113
On October 27 2011 11:44 hype[NZ] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2011 18:38 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?


Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol
+ Show Spoiler +
after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine

[image loading]

maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here

[image loading]

Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop)


Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor
+ Show Spoiler +
My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn.

I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. (sample diagram/line in PGN viewer).

Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative.



+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously when we deal with [the threat of Rxe1#] in whatever way we choose we should do it in the best way possible

In that position we can play 23.Bf4 which develops our bishop, attacks the Rb8 and also connects our rooks. Now black has a lot of threats to deal with 23...Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 and I can't really find a good move for black here since we threaten Re6+ again (after we play h3 or g3 to prevent further back rank mate threats).

e.g. 24...Rb3 25.h3 Kd7 (25...Rxa3? 26.Re6+)

diagram
I'm very tired, so please forgive me if I'm making a blatant mistake, but at first glance, although your 23rd move does seem a fairly strong one, Black's passed pawn still seems quite strong to me in these lines. E.g. line continuing from your 25th White move.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
hype[NZ]
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
Japan412 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 04:43:50
October 27 2011 04:40 GMT
#2114
On October 27 2011 13:35 qrs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 11:44 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 18:38 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:
On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:
On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:
On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:
18.b4

+ Show Spoiler +
It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.

So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3)
In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +
20...Rb3? (diagram/PGN viewer)

From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good.

Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours.

What would your plan be in this position?

+ Show Spoiler +
If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8.

So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook

[image loading]


22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas.

We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8

I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line.

[image loading]


That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side.
I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +
21. Re3
and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +
I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here.

The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +
...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position.

Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 (diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply?


Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol
+ Show Spoiler +
after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine

[image loading]

maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here

[image loading]

Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop)


Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor
+ Show Spoiler +
My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn.

I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. (sample diagram/line in PGN viewer).

Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative.



+ Show Spoiler +
Obviously when we deal with [the threat of Rxe1#] in whatever way we choose we should do it in the best way possible

In that position we can play 23.Bf4 which develops our bishop, attacks the Rb8 and also connects our rooks. Now black has a lot of threats to deal with 23...Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 and I can't really find a good move for black here since we threaten Re6+ again (after we play h3 or g3 to prevent further back rank mate threats).

e.g. 24...Rb3 25.h3 Kd7 (25...Rxa3? 26.Re6+)

diagram
I'm very tired, so please forgive me if I'm making a blatant mistake, but at first glance, although your 23rd move does seem a fairly strong one, Black's passed pawn still seems quite strong to me in these lines. E.g. line continuing from your 25th White move.

edit:wait a minute
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 04:46:53
October 27 2011 04:46 GMT
#2115
Re
On October 27 2011 08:27 hype[NZ] wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Also I remember qrs (I think) saying that the knight is good on d2, as it can jump to many potentially useful squares, however the problem is it needs to defend the pawn on b3, so the knight is basically useless until we can play b4
I said something similar, but my point was slightly different: + Show Spoiler +
I didn't say that the Knight can jump to many potentially useful squares but that it "controls" a number of useful squares (link). The difference is that the Knight doesn't have to move to those squares to be useful; it just has to cover them. For instance, by covering b1, it supports a potential Rb1 if the b-file gets opened in the future (this applies to b4 lines as well, but not to lines where we move the Knight from d2). By covering c4 [I originally wrote c5, but I meant c4], it helps to weaken the force of any possible future ...c4, as well as discouraging a move like ...Bc5 if we ever move the pawn from b3.

To be sure, these defensive possibilities aren't direct arguments against b4, as, if anything, they are even more relevant to those lines than to the b3 lines. However, they are arguments for why the Knight accomplishes useful things on d2 and why it's therefore not bad for us to leave it there. Yes, it's a defensive piece, but it's a good defensive piece.

'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 05:10:19
October 27 2011 04:49 GMT
#2116
On October 27 2011 08:38 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 08:27 hype[NZ] wrote:
I feel that the problem with 18.b3 is that we aren't making the most pressing moves. When we are playing correspondence every move has to count, especially at this stage.

+ Show Spoiler +
For example, the plan with b3 is to leave the knight on d2 and play Bb2, however b2 is definitely not the best square for the bishop (much better is d2 or even f4, which the knight would be blocking us from playing). Even playing Bb2-c3 is kinda slow, and the bishop would have a lot more scope on d2 anyway.

Also I remember qrs (I think) saying that the knight is good on d2, as it can jump to many potentially useful squares, however the problem is it needs to defend the pawn on b3, so the knight is basically useless until we can play b4, even moreso since it hinders our bishop from reaching its best squares. I find that looking at lines where we play b3 just makes me wish we would play b4 instead haha.

e.g. the latest analysis of b3 goes 18.b3 Bd6 but already I don't think that black will play Bd6 here for the same reason that qrs pointed out my 20.Bd6 I gave in my initial analysis wasn't the best.
Black will probably want to connect rooks so I think it would go something more like:
18.b3 Ba6 19.Bb2 (it's the plan...) Bd6 and then what? Exchanging rooks just concedes the e-file to black and I feel we need to remove our weakness on b3 so (wait for it) 20.b4

people seem to think that after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 we have trouble defending that pawn, however from the lines I've seen it is black that is having trouble trying to capture the pawn, which we can surrender at an opportune moment anyway.

e.g.
On October 27 2011 04:00 Cloud9157 wrote:
I still feel b4 is a mistake...

+ Show Spoiler +
What do we do when he plays a5? Take? He just slides his rook over and gets it back as well as having a well developed rook once he takes it.

Our problem is piece development.

I propose Nf3 followed by b4. a5 will lose out to bxa5 as we can then play Bd2 to defend our a5 pawn incase he wants to play ra8.


This is the kind of thing we don't even care about, because if black is taking the time to do this then we have 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Rb5 20.a4 Rxa5 21.Nb3 and we are still up a pawn and have the initiative which we should be able to convert into a winning position.

One thing that I've noticed in my analysis is that b2 isn't a great square for the bishop, so I'm liking the idea of playing b4 Nf1 even if black responds 18.b4 Ba6. I have a feeling that black won't be so willing to go along with 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 since he has trouble regaining the pawn in the lines I've seen, and also because he needs to connect his rooks to prevent Rxe8 Kxe8 ideas.

I feel that blacks pressure on the b-file is justified if we put the pawn on b3 and the bishop on b2, hence we should aim to play b4 to remove the b2 weakness, shift our knight to the kingside via Nf1 and place our bishop on a good square (d2 or even better f4)


Hopefully that's coherent, I kind of did it from memory haha. I think I might have rambled a bit but oh well.

Those are all very good points, some of them are the points I've been trying to make. And yes, it was all coherent

Unfortunately there are several voters who just vote and leave and don't offer a reason, read through the analysis, or study the position. In a vote as close as this one, it's a big deal.

Show nested quote +
On October 27 2011 08:34 GenesisX wrote:
18. Nf1

+ Show Spoiler +
greggy's board convinced me. This move opens up a lot of options for our pieces especially for our bishop.

Are we looking at the same board? This is probably the worst variation we've seen in regard to bishop scope.


edit: nvm im stupid
133 221 333 123 111
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 27 2011 05:12 GMT
#2117
So, I think I'm going to change my vote to abstain.

+ Show Spoiler +
I see positional problems in each variation :/ b3, Nf1 and b4 suffer piece movement restrictions (although thanks to JD, I like b4 slightly more than I originally did). Nb1 I looked at a bit more thoroughly and it is just too slow. Same for Nf1, although honestly I didn't mind Qrs's line with g3. So I really don't know, and therefore I abstain.
Write your own song!
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4730 Posts
October 27 2011 07:28 GMT
#2118
18. b3
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
greggy
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom1483 Posts
October 27 2011 09:45 GMT
#2119
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm becoming more and more convinced that 18. b4 is actually the move to play, followed by Nf1 after that. The plan I have in mind after that is just ditch the two a-pawns and try and win f6/h7 pawns instead - or at least create some sort of king-side counterplay.

A few lines:

http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=748563
ApocAlypsE007
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Israel1007 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-27 10:03:42
October 27 2011 10:00 GMT
#2120
I see here that while White has bad Bishop and his Rooks aren't connected he has an advantage in the late game due to many isolated pawn islands from black. The move 18. Nf3 doesn't give the knight good attacking opportunities and Nf1 is too passive imo. Although the White Bishop is blocked he doesn't have a square to land on and guard without breaking the King's safe position. I feel here the white has to prevent the undermining move 18... c5 which breaks white's hold on the center, So I think the move 18. b4 is the right one here so to prevent 18... c5 and concrete block the Black's Rook on b line.
Also this can be followed by 19. Nb3 eyeing on the potential outpost on c5, or 19. Bb2 taking control of the long diagonal and strengthening the d4 pawn.
I'm playing the game, the one that will take me to my end, i'm waiting for the rain, TO WASH-- WHO I AM!!!
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