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On October 27 2011 14:12 mastergriggy wrote:So, I think I'm going to change my vote to abstain. + Show Spoiler +I see positional problems in each variation :/ b3, Nf1 and b4 suffer piece movement restrictions (although thanks to JD, I like b4 slightly more than I originally did). Nb1 I looked at a bit more thoroughly and it is just too slow. Same for Nf1, although honestly I didn't mind Qrs's line with g3. So I really don't know, and therefore I abstain. Which line of mine was that? + Show Spoiler +I don't remember giving a line for Nf1 with g3 in it. The line that worries me about Nf1 is 18...a5, to be followed by 19...a4. Or did you mean that g3 somehow helps in the line I was worried about?
I gave g3 in a line following 18. b3 Bd6.
On October 27 2011 19:00 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
I see here that while White has bad Bishop and his Rooks aren't connected he has an advantage in the late game due to many isolated pawn islands from black. The move 18. Nf3 doesn't give the knight good attacking opportunities and Nf1 is too passive imo. Although the White Bishop is blocked he doesn't have a square to land on and guard without breaking the King's safe position. I feel here the white has to prevent the undermining move 18... c5 which breaks white's hold on the center, So I think the move 18. b4 is the right one here so to prevent 18... c5 and concrete block the Black's Rook on b line.
Also this can be followed by 19. Nb3 eyeing on the potential outpost on c5, or 19. Bb2 taking control of the long diagonal and strengthening the d4 pawn. But b4 doesn't prevent ...c5, and it can't be followed by 19. Nb3 or 19. Bb3. + Show Spoiler +
Re the (somewhat valid) criticism that people are making of 18. b3 + Show Spoiler +that it doesn't offer much scope to our Bishop on b2 (although it's a good defensive position), I'd like to say that I consider 18. b3 a defensive sort of move. The idea is to hold our position together and deflect Black's Queenside threats of ...a5/...a4, ...Rb3 and ...c5. Once that is accomplished, we can then redeploy our pieces to a more threatening posture. For instance, we may be able to play Bc3 and Rb1 to set up a stronger version of b4, where we keep our pawn on the b-file.
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+ Show Spoiler +Has anyone considered the 18. b4 a5 19. ba .. 20. Rb1 lines? It looks like black can't realistically avoid a trade on at least one of the rooks. Haven't looked deep into it though - if someone has considered it please quote them >_>
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On October 27 2011 22:10 greggy wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Has anyone considered the 18. b4 a5 19. ba .. 20. Rb1 lines? It looks like black can't realistically avoid a trade on at least one of the rooks. Haven't looked deep into it though - if someone has considered it please quote them >_> On October 26 2011 00:22 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +b4... Here's one particular line that it might not implausibly lead to: PGN viewer. Is our pawn advantage enough here? Can we force it through to a win, particularly given that the Queening square of our passed pawn is on the colour that our Bishop does not control? I'm not sure. In general, I'd rather not rush to play bxa5. That's why I favour the more flexible 18. b3... Basically, I think that we keep a slight edge in that line, but it forces the game into an endgame which looks pretty drawish to me. YMMV.
I'm working on a better way to post analysis. Stay tuned...
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On October 27 2011 20:56 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 14:12 mastergriggy wrote:So, I think I'm going to change my vote to abstain. + Show Spoiler +I see positional problems in each variation :/ b3, Nf1 and b4 suffer piece movement restrictions (although thanks to JD, I like b4 slightly more than I originally did). Nb1 I looked at a bit more thoroughly and it is just too slow. Same for Nf1, although honestly I didn't mind Qrs's line with g3. So I really don't know, and therefore I abstain. Which line of mine was that? + Show Spoiler +I don't remember giving a line for Nf1 with g3 in it. The line that worries me about Nf1 is 18...a5, to be followed by 19...a4. Or did you mean that g3 somehow helps in the line I was worried about?
I gave g3 in a line following 18. b3 Bd6. Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 19:00 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
I see here that while White has bad Bishop and his Rooks aren't connected he has an advantage in the late game due to many isolated pawn islands from black. The move 18. Nf3 doesn't give the knight good attacking opportunities and Nf1 is too passive imo. Although the White Bishop is blocked he doesn't have a square to land on and guard without breaking the King's safe position. I feel here the white has to prevent the undermining move 18... c5 which breaks white's hold on the center, So I think the move 18. b4 is the right one here so to prevent 18... c5 and concrete block the Black's Rook on b line.
Also this can be followed by 19. Nb3 eyeing on the potential outpost on c5, or 19. Bb2 taking control of the long diagonal and strengthening the d4 pawn. But b4 doesn't prevent ...c5, and it can't be followed by 19. Nb3 or 19. Bb3. + Show Spoiler +Re the (somewhat valid) criticism that people are making of 18. b3 + Show Spoiler +that it doesn't offer much scope to our Bishop on b2 (although it's a good defensive position), I'd like to say that I consider 18. b3 a defensive sort of move. The idea is to hold our position together and deflect Black's Queenside threats of ...a5/...a4, ...Rb3 and ...c5. Once that is accomplished, we can then redeploy our pieces to a more threatening posture. For instance, we may be able to play Bc3 and Rb1 to set up a stronger version of b4, where we keep our pawn on the b-file.
Yeah the + Show Spoiler +line was what I meant, my bad.
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On October 26 2011 02:45 qrs wrote:
I think we should give some thought to coming up with a way to do the analysis collaboratively, in future turns--i.e. instead of everyone posting their own analysis as isolated lines, we have a central tree that everyone can edit (e.g. a Google Doc) and post their analysis at the appropriate spot on the tree. The Talmud has a saying: "The one who sends the memo should be the one to do something about it" (loose translation), so I did. Analysis Tree.
I'm pretty excited about this tree. I spent a bit of time testing it out by adding lines to it, and in my opinion, it works well. The benefits of using the tree are significant, imo--just look how hard it is to find previously posted analysis in the forum here. Unless you've been actively keeping up with every single post, it's almost impossible.
I tried to be as thorough as possible in the introduction I put on the home page, to cover everything people might wonder about, but now I'm afraid that such a long intro may make the tree look intimidatingly complicated to use. Please don't let that scare you off: I promise it's not as complicated as it might seem at a glance. If the intro is too long, then skip it and just go straight to the tree: you can always refer back to the intro if you need to later on.
One thing that you shouldn't overlook, though, (it's in the middle of the intro) is the template for posting a position topic--it really simplifies the process, imo.
That's about it. I'll PM Ng5 to ask him to put a link to the tree in the OP of this thread. It might be too late for the tree to have a big impact on this move, but if we start putting our analysis there, I think it has the potential to help us out going forward. I really hope you guys give it a try!
Thanks,
qrs
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Latest vote count:Move 18 votes
+ Show Spoiler [votes] +18. Nf1: 3 (mastergriggy, EvilNalu, Mash2, GenesisX)
18. Nf3: 1 (Cloud9157)
18. b4: 6-7 (Malli, jdseemoreglass, Bill Murray, itsjustatank, lightman, hype[NZ], dtvu, ApocAlypsE007?) (unclear whether ApocAlypsE007 was voting for b4 or only suggesting it)
18. h3: 0 (Bill Murray)
18. f4: 1 (timh, keyStorm)
18. Nb1: 2 (Chezus, Raysalis)
18. b3: 8 (wizard944, qrs, A-tan, chesshaha, indigoawareness, ffreakk, aphorism, Malinor)
Abstain: 5 (hp.Shell, Bill Murray, timh, Blazinghand, mastergriggy)
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'm changing my vote from Abstain to 18. b4 based on the arguments I've read. Sorry to change so soon after a new graph ;_;
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On October 28 2011 01:52 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm changing my vote from Abstain to 18. b4 based on the arguments I've read. Sorry to change so soon after a new graph ;_; Ha, don't worry about the graph, it's just a way to generally keep track of what the voting looks like. Anyone who looks at it can mentally add your vote to b4. I'll repost the graph once the vote closes, in any case.
I'm sorrier that you're changing to b4  , but the important thing is that you're doing it based on reading the arguments. That's what a team game should look like.
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After b4
+ Show Spoiler +a5. Now:
xa5. Rb5. His rook is now a monster in development and hitting the pawn.
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b3
+ Show Spoiler +My initial inclination was to vote for b4 which would've been nice a couple moves ago, however a4 from black would open the board up on the queenside and since he has better developped pieces, we'd be hardpressed to find a win there.
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On October 27 2011 08:27 hype[NZ] wrote:+ Show Spoiler +e.g. the latest analysis of b3 goes 18.b3 Bd6 but already I don't think that black will play Bd6 here for the same reason that qrs pointed out my 20.Bd6 I gave in my initial analysis wasn't the best.
Black will probably want to connect rooks so I think it would go something more like:
18.b3 Ba6 19.Bb2 (it's the plan...) Bd6 and then what? Exchanging rooks just concedes the e-file to black and I feel we need to remove our weakness on b3 so (wait for it) 20.b4 I responded to your line on the tree here. Basically, I like b4 a lot better in your line than I like it at this point, and I really don't see any more problems for us after we play it.
hype[NZ] continued:+ Show Spoiler +people seem to think that after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 we have trouble defending that pawn, however from the lines I've seen it is black that is having trouble trying to capture the pawn, which we can surrender at an opportune moment anyway. I agree with you that defending an extra pawn is not our issue in the 18. b4 lines. Rather, what I don't like about them (compared to the 18. b3 lines) is + Show Spoiler +that they open up the board at a time when Black's pieces are much better positioned to take advantage of that than ours are. edit: as LaXerCannon wrote as I was typing this post.
18. b3 is a more cautious approach, in my opinion. Deal with Black's immediate threats while staying flexible and keeping the board closed; then take care of the tactical issues that are hampering us (e.g. the Bishop splitting our Rooks, the threatened back-rank mate, etc.), and finally move forward with our game, where the lack of tactical constraints on us ought to give us much more control in determining what sort of endgame we head into.
18. b4 feels to me (after reading the analysis on it) to be just a little too hasty to cash in our chips--yes, we can probably reach an endgame where we keep our extra pawn, but I'm not sure that we can reach one where we can keep Black from drawing, and once we've committed, it's too late to go back.
If nothing else, the fact that b4 precludes b3, whereas b3 does not preclude b4 ought to be a point in favour of b3, imo.
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OK, I went ahead and added the basic line after 18. b4, that I think more or less everyone agrees with, to the tree, here. Any 18. b4 advocates feel like fleshing it out with their favorite continuations?
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greggy, why don't you vote? And why aren't you in the roster?
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On October 27 2011 13:40 hype[NZ] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:35 qrs wrote:On October 27 2011 11:44 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 18:38 qrs wrote:On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:18.b4+ Show Spoiler +It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.
So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3) In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +20...Rb3? ( diagram/PGN viewer) From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good. Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours. What would your plan be in this position? + Show Spoiler +If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8. So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook 22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas. We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line. That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side. I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here. The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position. Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 ( diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position. I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply? Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol + Show Spoiler +after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine ![[image loading]](http://www.apronus.com/chess/stilldiagram.php?d=AR_B___K______PPPP__________p____P__N____b____p_________p_r_bk___0/) maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here ![[image loading]](http://www.apronus.com/chess/stilldiagram.php?d=A___R__K__r___P_PP__N__P__Bb_____P____pb________________p____k___0/) Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop) Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor + Show Spoiler +My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn. I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. ( sample diagram/line in PGN viewer). Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative. + Show Spoiler +Obviously when we deal with [the threat of Rxe1#] in whatever way we choose we should do it in the best way possible In that position we can play 23.Bf4 which develops our bishop, attacks the Rb8 and also connects our rooks. Now black has a lot of threats to deal with 23...Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 and I can't really find a good move for black here since we threaten Re6+ again (after we play h3 or g3 to prevent further back rank mate threats). e.g. 24...Rb3 25.h3 Kd7 (25...Rxa3? 26.Re6+) diagram I'm very tired, so please forgive me if I'm making a blatant mistake, but at first glance, although your 23rd move does seem a fairly strong one, Black's passed pawn still seems quite strong to me in these lines. E.g. line continuing from your 25th White move. edit:wait a minute
I missed something in my analysis before, and then I went out drinking, so this was a while coming haha
+ Show Spoiler +
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wrote a wall of text, then closed the tab
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
general gist of what I was going to say
+ Show Spoiler +1) black isn't going to play c5 after b4-a5-ba, he'll only have 3 unconnected pawns left, reducing chances of victory by over 9000%
2) if 18. b4 a5 19. ba X where X isn't Ba6, 20. Rb1 looks very strong. Else 20. Nf1 seems to be pretty good
3) white needs to be prepared to give away one (or both) of a3/a5 pawns to make black lose time, don't create deep emotional attachments to those pawns just yet
As to why I don't vote: I cba. My vote doesn't affect anything anyway.
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On October 28 2011 07:17 hype[NZ] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 13:40 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 27 2011 13:35 qrs wrote:On October 27 2011 11:44 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 18:38 qrs wrote:On October 26 2011 13:23 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 08:03 qrs wrote:On October 26 2011 06:30 hype[NZ] wrote:On October 26 2011 04:21 qrs wrote:On October 25 2011 06:43 hype[NZ] wrote:18.b4+ Show Spoiler +It's better now than it ever was. Black's dark square bishop is semi-pinned since 18...Bd6 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 and he is just going backwards.
So perhaps 18...a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Bd6 21.Rxe8 Rxe8 22.Ne3, or if 18...Ba6 we can eventually play Nb3 and our position looks pretty good (e.g. 18.b4 Ba6 19.Bb2 Bd6 20.Nb3) In your line, what if Black plays + Show Spoiler +20...Rb3? ( diagram/PGN viewer) From what I've seen, it doesn't seem to be in Black's interest to play ...Bd6 too early because that allows us to take pressure off us and simplify with RxR, as in your line. However, 20...Rb3 seems to be a good move for Black here: without conceding us anything (like the chance to trade Rooks), he strengthens his hold on the b-file by preparing to double Rooks, and continues to pressure us by threatening the a3 pawn, should the Bishop ever leave. As long as the Bishop remains an invalid, and splits our Rooks, I don't think we're ready to say that our position looks pretty good. Of course, we're up two pawns at the moment, so we have the option of letting one go and remaining a pawn up, but even if we do that, I'm not sure how easy it will be to hold on to all of our remaining ones, with both the a-pawn and the d-pawn alone and far from home, and with the greater co-ordination of Black's pieces compared to ours. What would your plan be in this position? + Show Spoiler +If black is planning to double rooks on the b-file then he has basically given us Re1 for free when he played Re8. So after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 Rb3 we could continue with 21.Re3 Reb8 22.Nd2 and black is pretty much forced to trade a rook 22...Rd3 (22...R3b7 23.Rh3 Rh8 24.Rb1) (22.R3b5 23.a4 Rxa5 24.Nb3) 23.Rxd3 Bxd3 then we might continue with Nf1-e3 ideas. We could also directly play 21.Ne3 which attacks the d5 pawn 21... c6 22.Nf5 Bd8 23.Rxe8 Kxe8 I agree black doesn't want to trade rooks so maybe he could play 21...Bd8 here instead of c6 (since now we can't RxR and this prevents Nf5). Not sure of the best way to proceed here since black is threatening Rd3 attacking our d4 pawn, as well as to play c5 which will lose our a5 pawn (which is might be unavoidable), but then again we don't even have to go down this line. That's just my ideas atm. As always feel free to point out stuff like 20...Bd6 not being blacks best reply in the line I gave before, or any improvements for either side. I spent some time just now looking at your reply + Show Spoiler +and I think you're right: it refutes the move I proposed for Black. + Show Spoiler +I wouldn't have expected it at first glance, but the threat of Rh3-Rxh2 turns out to play a large role in shutting down Black's options here. The move I'm looking at now for Black's 20th move, in your line, is that old standby + Show Spoiler +...c5, putting the question to us immediately, before our pieces have had the chance to regroup. Here, we can't avoid allowing Black a passed pawn, which along with the Bishop pair and the open board seems like it may give him reasonable chances in this position. Here I'm not sure what our best approach is. We can still trade off Rooks, if we like, but I'm not sure I like the look of that in this line. E.g. 21. dxc5 Bxc5 22. Rxe8 Kxe8 23. Bd2 Rb2 ( diagram/PGN viewer) and although we may be two pawns up on him, I'm not sure at all that I like our position. I wouldn't go so far as to say that this move refutes your line, but I do find it worrisome. How would you recommend we reply? Sorry I missed this before, I probably shouldn't spend too much time on this since I'm at uni... but what the hell lol + Show Spoiler +after 18.b4 a5 19.bxa5 Ba6 20.Nf1 c5 we have the option of playing 21.Ne3 since 21...cxd4 22.Nxd5 Bd8 23.Rxd8 Kxd8 and blacks bishop must defend f6 otherwise we have 3v1 on the kingside. So as long as we can prevent the pawn from promoting we will be fine maybe 24.Bd2 Rb2 25.Bb4 Bc4 26.Nf4 (edit: Nb6 here might make 25...Bc4 not such a good move) d3 25.Rd1 and I don't see the pawn promoting since black needs his dark square bishop to defend d2, but e.g. 25...f5 (intending to play 26...Bg4) 26.g3 Bg4 27.Nxd3 and we will win from here Better for black might be 21...Kc6 (or not lol after 22.Nf5 Rb7 23.Re6+ and black is losing the bishop) Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes, I'm not used to that pgn editor + Show Spoiler +My thought for Black if we opted for 21. Ne3 had been 21...Kc6, as you suggest. It seems a better move here than in lines where it's played ahead of the c-pawn. I hadn't fully seen the strength of 22. Nf5, which you point out, but I don't think it makes a difference: after 22...Bf8, we are again faced with the immediate threat of ...R(x)e1#, and once we deal with that, in whatever way we choose to, Black can play c4, giving him a passed pawn that is already in our territory, that we currently have no way to threaten (as it is supported on c4 by his d-pawn), and that he can easily move to support with all of his pieces (King included), whereas our King is far away. ( sample diagram/line in PGN viewer). Again, this isn't a line where I think we necessarily have serious problems, but it's one that I find worrisome enough to prefer avoiding b4, since b3 gives us an alternative. + Show Spoiler +Obviously when we deal with [the threat of Rxe1#] in whatever way we choose we should do it in the best way possible In that position we can play 23.Bf4 which develops our bishop, attacks the Rb8 and also connects our rooks. Now black has a lot of threats to deal with 23...Rxe1+ 24.Rxe1 and I can't really find a good move for black here since we threaten Re6+ again (after we play h3 or g3 to prevent further back rank mate threats). e.g. 24...Rb3 25.h3 Kd7 (25...Rxa3? 26.Re6+) diagram I'm very tired, so please forgive me if I'm making a blatant mistake, but at first glance, although your 23rd move does seem a fairly strong one, Black's passed pawn still seems quite strong to me in these lines. E.g. line continuing from your 25th White move. edit:wait a minute I missed something in my analysis before, and then I went out drinking, so this was a while coming haha + Show Spoiler + It seems I was indeed making a blatant mistake. Time to have another look at your line.
Edit: After looking at it for a bit, I'm not sure what I think anymore. 18. b4 seems to be holding up pretty well after all...
edit 2: At this point, I can't come up with anything against the + Show Spoiler +plan. At the same time, I haven't seen anything against the + Show Spoiler +plan, either. I don't know which is better, so I'm going to change my vote to abstain.
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What's abstain?
Stop playing this game, and start a new one? So many ppl voting for this.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Abstain Means: I am still an active member of this game, but I'm not sure as to what the right move is, so I'm not voting this round.
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South Africa4316 Posts
I haven't posted in this thread before, but the game looked interesting so I thought I'd have a look. Hope that's not a problem.
How about Re3? I might have missed something, but this is what I thought:
+ Show Spoiler +From what I can tell, black has the following options:
...a5 - Seems to be his best option. Nb3, a4, Nc5, Bxc5, Rxe8, Kxe8, dxc5, Rb5, Be3, Rxb2, Bd4, Rc2, Kf1. It's not perfect, but you can either force his rook from the second row or move your own rook to the third row to attack the king side. It's probably a draw, but there's still some game left in it.
...c5 - I think this favours white. dxc5, Bxc5, Rxe8, Kxe8, b4. It's fairly good for white. He should be able to free his pieces and keep the extra pawn.
... Be6 - Still better for White I think. Rxe8, Kxe8, b4, a5, Rb5, a4, Rxa5, Nb3 after which our pieces are free and we're still one pawn up.
Let me know if there's any obvious problem. I haven't played chess in a good eight years so I'm very rusty 
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Abstain I haven't followed the game like I wanted and it seems a lot of people are abstaining so even if the good ones don't know, I'll back down this time lol
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hEG8a.png)
![[image loading]](http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/1869/chessg.png)
![[image loading]](http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1251/chesstt.png)
