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On March 27 2011 09:42 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:33 kheldorin wrote:
Then I don't understand how Ace was so consistent in IEM. He was undefeated in group stages and went on to win. If the game and the players are as volatile as you seem to think it is, shouldn't he have lost more games?
If Koreans are consistently better in a LAN setting while the rest are better when playing the in these higher-lagged conditions, then the only conclusion one can derive is that lag does play a huge factor.
. By this logic, Ace should have gone undefeated in GSL too and would've had no problem qualifying in the past. He hit a good stretch of play during that weekend, likewise oGs TOP hit a bad stretch when he went to Dreamhack and fizzled out with his teammate.
ogstop still got top 4 at dreamhack thats pretty good, but obviously he was on even footing with those players, at the time he wasnt even in the gsl though and i think hes improved drastically since dreamhack. just my 2 cents
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this will clear up some speculations
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Thanks for clearing it up jinro, I think its really frusterating for the korean players, you were very frusterated after your games in the GCPL and im sure the koreans felt the same way, after you get into that frusterated state of mind during a game its pretty hard to play your best id say.
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I am really glad Jinro made this post. Personally I feel like the spectating experience of the TSL is being cheapened by all these whiners making excuses and blaming lag, it is really frustrating to open the LR thread to see what other people thought about the great games I just watched to see pages and pages of people whining about lag.
As someone who has played on KR from NA and EU from NA when I was visiting my old high school buddy who had a KR and NA account, I can say that the latency is noticable but it is not something that cannot be overcome and it is fairly minor if you get used to it, after 20-30 ladder games I was pretty much used to the input delay. Liquid`Tyler said the same thing on SOTG when talking about KR server lag when he was playing from NA and he felt like it was something he would just have to get used to and that it would also be helpful to get used to playing under "laggy" conditions for the sake of online tournaments or LANs where it might be lagging due to server issues
Personally I feel that it is incredibly unprofessional of the Korean players to not have practiced on the NA server to get used to the latency. As professional gamers it is their job to get used to these kind of things and TSL even warned them of this and offered them accounts to get used to it but it seems like they completely neglected it. As professional gamers they should really focus on their condition, it is akin to making sure your keyboard/mouse/monitor setup and your hotkeys/computer settings at LANs are sorted out instead of just turning up and failing then blaming that.
If people want to simulate the experience for themselves they should start a "Single player vs A.I." game and compare the input delay to what they are used to in multiplayer, everything seems a lot quicker and multiplayer seems completely laggy but it isn't very noticable since you are used to it
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Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times...
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Braavos36374 Posts
On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote:
Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times...
Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration.
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I agree that Koreans probably should have practiced more under the TSL conditions if they wanted to do well, but that doesn't change the fact the conditions were not equal. Theoretically, when you play starcraft, you want to play it in the most pure, unaltered environment possible, which means either on LAN which is impossible, or at least on the same server, KR being a great one for good, smooth play considering how good Korean internet is.
My idea is that Koreans approached the TSL as, "Eh, I want to focus mainly on my play on the Korean server, but it'll be a fun experience to interact with the foreign community and play in a foreign tournament" and mainly practiced on that, since practicing for completely different conditions for just one tournament simply isn't the most efficient thing to do. They probably wanted to focus most on the GSL. Splitting up practice conditions, considering the extent to which they practice, just doesn't seem that efficient.
Also, no matter how good or bad the lag was, does anyone know why MVP's kiting was so damn slow? It was painful to watch.
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Jinro bossing it up as always. Hopefully some of the arguing will die down. I'm not naive enough to think that it will all die down though...
I guarantee that after at least one game tomorrow, someone will say "lol, can't blame x on lag, lolol".
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On March 27 2011 13:16 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote:
Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration.
Since he still won i dont know why they would exagerate it that much maybe slightly.
Edit: at one point it actually did seem like a 2 second delay when boxers marauders were just sitting there getting chopped up by zealots, especially because he is known for his impeccable micro regardless of the flaws in his mechanics. I defenetly dont think he played the whole game with a 2 second delay but there could have easily been 2000 ms spikes, thats what the most detrimental lag usually is , sharp spikes.
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Jinro with words of wisdom, people should be forced to read this. jinro fighting
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It's good to hear words regarding the latency from the one and only Jinro. Makes the analysis really worth something rather than coming from some random guy who is a fan boy 
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On March 27 2011 13:24 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote:
Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration. Since he still won i dont know why they would exagerate it that much maybe slightly. Edit: at one point it actually did seem like a 2 second delay when boxers marauders were just sitting there getting chopped up by zealots, especially because he is known for his impeccable micro regardless of the flaws in his mechanics. I defenetly dont think he played the whole game with a 2 second delay but there could have easily been 2000 ms spikes, thats what the most detrimental lag usually is , sharp spikes.
Maybe he simply didn't watch? It was definitely not 2 seconds delay.
And why they would exaggerate it? Because everybody does it, nobody is saying "I have 0,4 seconds delay". I mean I heard Kas saying that he had like 3 seconds delay on the US server, that's also an exaggeration.
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United States1454 Posts
It's really something to appreciate when someone distinguished says something unbiased and open minded/intelligent. Why? Because it gives the mob a credible source for thought. I have my own personal feelings, but i can honestly say IMO Jinro wouldn't be biased because he is a member of TL trying to downplay and issue, rather, giving both sides from his personal, professional, perspective. These kind of things are what really need to be highlighted more often in a "Volatile game" and hence a "volatile community".
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post.
Why is this guy banned? He simply quoted someone else's posts (which were not deemed ban-worthy, obviously). Confused here. Is TL so closed-minded that it doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant, even though it's presented in civil manners? Not that I think his post is most polite one nor agree with what message his post presumably intends to convey, but the free speech means nothing if you simply block what you don't want to hear.
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United States5162 Posts
On March 27 2011 13:55 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post. Why is this guy banned? He simply quoted someone else's posts (which were not deemed ban-worthy, obviously). Confused here. Is TL so closed-minded that it doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant, even though it's presented in civil manners? Not that I think his post is most polite one nor agree with what message his post presumably intends to convey, but the free speech means nothing if you simply block what you don't want to hear.
Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post.
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The Ping from Asia to EU and US is really very high. And dont forget it depends a lot on the time the matches are played. I guess times were chosen which are suitable for both players, but actually thats the wrongest thing you can do, cause at those times the ping is extra high, due to more internet usage between those regions. Here in VN I notice the differences immensely. During daytime and evening i get a bitrate between 0.1 and 0.5 mbit/s to European and American servers. After 2 AM i get 3-4 mbit/s. The ping changes in a similar way.
I know the broadband in South Korea might be of better quality than the one in Vietnam but the connection to other continents should behave in a similar way, as the same connections are used.
I would rather play in the middle of the night, then having a ping twice as high as usual. And this change of latency depending on the daytime makes it really difficult to adjust to the latency. Maybe the Koreans DID practice on the NA servers, but just at another time, so the latency wasnt the same as when their games happened. It's really not constant at all.
It's really sad that this great tournament is overshadowed by these issues.
Maybe in the next TSL you might wanna split brackets up serverwise and then have the top 8 or something meet for an offline finale.
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On March 27 2011 13:59 Myles wrote:
Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post.
Interesting. Is it in the ToS (Term of Service) of this forum?
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On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote:
Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual."
Jinro answered to this post, but not to the question. Would be interesting to hear a take on this from a knowledgable person who has seen the game!
MVP lost a marine to a probe surround.
He then lost a reaper to a probe surround.
He then let a stalker get away from a fight with a marine and marauder with concussive shells. Yes you heard that correctly, the units were standing still, fighting, and then the stalker just started to walk off without the marauder continuing to slow him, making it that much easier for Adel to defend his super ridiculous 15 nexus (not bashing the strat, risks can pay off, like we just saw in this game).
Early units like these are crucial to the direction and outcome of the game when you have one player building his nexus before gateway on close (air) positions.
Maybe I'm spoiled from Brood War, but it's simply very hard to imagine any progamer making mistakes like these. Yes, maybe the players did make bad calls and bad moves later on in the game, but that is not where stuff like this matters most (which is in the early game, like in MVP vs Adel 2).
Maybe MVP is that bad. And I absolutely agree that Koreans should have prepared better. But that is the only argument that somewhat alleviates the disappointment in this TSL day at all and it really doesn't do much for me (mainly because adjustment to lag is not part of Starcraft itself, but even more outside of it than meta game is). I was so hyped for this and being forced to doubt the legitimacy of the outcomes of the games just ruins it...
I'm not saying that the winners are bad players. They played great and I'm a fan of seeing them succeed (and a fan of GoOdy even when he doesn't succeed : D), especially against 'mighty' Koreans. But that makes the doubt that any reasonably inquiring and sceptical person must have even more painful.
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Thanks for the post, it was pretty informative.
I was wondering though: how often do these top Koreans: MVP, Nestea, Boxer play in foreign tournaments? Jinro mentioned that when he first started playing cross-server, it was unbearable. I know that the foreigners have had tons of practice playing with lag because they've constantly switched back and forth between the NA and European servers, but not sure whether the Koreans have the same experience, since they predominantly (I know that some players like MC have been invited to foreign tournaments but haven't heard many other players doing it) play on the Korean server.
Oh well, it should be interesting to see how the foreigners do in the GSL world championships. That should give us a rough idea of the skill difference.
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TSL Day 3 Spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +The foreigners played well yesterday, and the koreans were obviously not at the top of their games - due to the lag or not, maybe? Some points to consider :
MVP Game 1 : MVP died when his push failed. Adelscott had more bases running (although his macro was slipping hard it didn't matter when he's so far ahead) and better upgrades, but MVP held out for a decent duration. MVP should've died much earlier though = =
MVP Game 2 : 15 nexus. I don't really know how viable that is but it worked in that game so well because MVP got his marine surrounded by probes uncharacteristically, and the same happened to the reaper that did almost nothing. Game went on and it became quite close, but MVP's bio control was sub-par, the kiting felt really weird. He probably wasn't used to microing in the delay I guess as Jinro mentioned, and then made some questionable decisions to go on to lose the game.
Overall : I don't know man. MVP seems inconsistent against protoss, although his performances in the GSTL kinda show that he's not that terrible in the match up. Lag played a part but I think he might've lost anyway, but we should've seen a game 3... (I think he would've won game 2 if he could control his units without the latency.)
Genius Game 1 : Just didn't play as well as he should.
Genius Game 2 : Forcefields kept missing. Most important moment was when qxc sniped his natural early game, which I think shouldn't have happened. Still, genius had the advantage for most of early-mid game, but failed to capitalise on it. I feel that he should've gone colossus instead of templar and would've won from there. qxc played brilliantly the rest of the game though, and denied him the win.
Overall : qxc feels like the better player overall. genius is probably better in the early-mid game but qxc played absolutely phenomenal in both games with the expansion timings and multi-harass all game long. Like the Adelscott/MVP games, we should've seen a 3rd game because I think qxc shouldn't have been able to snipe the natural, which really helped him get back into the game.
Nestea Game 1 : Gave away free zerglings (bad) and roaches (lag?) but won with brood lords. Absolutely stomped goody.
Nestea Game 2 : Nice all-in from goody. Caught Nestea by surprise. Nothing to see here.
Nestea Game 3 : Really weird game. I don't know what he should've done but I guess splitting up the army didn't work well. Apparently Nestea also missed key upgrades.
Overall : Nestea played poorly this series imo. One thing to consider though we didn't see any heavy mutalisk play from his games? It is because of the lag (can't micro them properly = cannot really abuse the mobility so might as well don't get too many of them or any at all) or the opponent's build (goody had many many scary thors). Goody has a nice build but I think his mechanics is kinda lacking compared to other players.
What I thought after seeing the games. I might've missed some things because it was like 6am when the games ended so pardon me if I wrote some absolute bullshit up there. ><
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EPT
