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On March 27 2011 10:47 Tula wrote:
kheldorin: are you honestly arguing that your daily form doesn't have an influence on how you play?
Ace had a killer streak going during IEM. He played in top form, and won convincingly. But during his GSL matches he didn't play nearly as good and as a result he lost.
Frankly a single tournament is never enough to really judge how good a player is. We've had a ton of players who won a single event while they were in top form and then fizzled out, the true masters are those who can achieve similar results consistently. So far we haven't had a single player achieve that, the only one who comes close has been MC, but frankly even he has only played at his best for 4 months now and in that period he also dropped some key games.
Regarding your point about audiences being interested only in true skills compared to daily performance, i'd really like to know what you are thinking of. Do you ever watch any sport at all? Pretty much all you can see as an audience is how good they are playing at that specific day, nothing more nothing less. The decision how good someone really is (as you phrased it) is always done over a longish period of time instead of a single event.
Remember the worldcup where zidane made a really stupid mistake in the final and got thrown out of the game. If you go by "class" he'd still be a top player, but if you go by "form" then his form cost his team the game (debatable), so for almost any sport audience the form while they are playing is far more interesting than some theories about who is better on paper.
(edit) regarding the bnet servers being an issue, the server is exactly the same for both players, the only difference is their routing to the server. Honestly that is not a problem you can blame on Blizzard.
Of course form matters. But people do not care about that. They care about skills.No audiences are interested in a 1-hit wonder. They want to know who is a better player not who is a better player on 26 March 2011. Which is why saying that players are volatile and games are volatile isn't really good for the game. If a game is really volatile, no matter how many tournaments are held, good players cannot be distinguished from each other and that would really suck.
The stupid mistake that Zidane did wasn't even skill-related. He was on form on that day. With regards to skill, he clearly showed it consistently.
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these.
he said:
No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
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Edit: Beaten to it, shouldn't have gotten baited in the first place, sleep mmm.
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On March 27 2011 11:10 vdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. he said: Show nested quote +No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
Well good, at least jinro acknowledged how much lag does play a role and doesn't brush it off lightly. I just wasted my ban for nothing then.  However, I would like jinro's opinion on lag pre earthquake and post earthquake. As I understand it, the lag was bearable pre earthquake, but has been bad post earthquake and is noticeably laggier.
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My interpretation of lag; can someone please correct me if this is incorrect: A server somewhere in the designated region (North America somewhere) hosts the game. So, the game is happening on the server computer. Suppose the European player has 150ms lag and the Korean 300ms lag. When something happens in the game, the European player sees it 150ms later and the Korean player 300ms later. The thing still happened 150ms and 300ms before, respectively. Assume the European player responds (hits their keyboard) in 500ms after he sees the thing happen on his screen and the Korean responds (hits keyboard) in 500ms after he sees the thing happen on his screen. The response takes an additional 150ms to get back to the server from the European player and an additional 300ms to get back to the server from the Korean player. So, it took 800ms for the computer running the game (the server) to get the European's response and 1100ms for the computer running the game to get the Korean's response. Is this an accurate description of how the server hosting works and what is going on with lag?
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I just got ridiculously spoiled on TSL 
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You can't just say players have to get used to the lag and its the player's fault for not practicing with the latency. The latency is still going to affect how long it takes for a unit to move after its been given an order. For example, even if a player was accustomed to the latency, if a reaper suddenly appeared and started attacking the probes, the probes would be under fire for that much longer since even if the Protoss player pulled the probes there would still be a long delay before they start running away.
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nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous....
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So Jinro's point is that if the Koreans took the time to play lots of practice games on the NA server, they would have been better prepared. Right?
It's not an unfair point, but damn. Sounds like a lot of work for guys whose main job is to be able to smoke the best of the best on the Korean server, where they have little to no lag. It'd be so hard for them to have to switch modes like that.
I say have the Koreans sit out until Bnet2 netcode gets fixed. It's just flat-out unfair to everyone -- the winners don't get their dues, and the losers lose face unjustifiably. The forums erupt in crying and TSL administrators are pissed coz they put so much work into something that people are saying lacks legitimacy.
Were the games today good? I'm not sure. I definitely wasn't impressed by the Koreans, but then the Koreans didn't play like they do on the GSL. They were slow, unresponsive, and wasted tons and tons and tons of units.
So were the games today good? Maybe. Depends on whether you were expecting a stand-up match or a spectacle. Qxc played awesome. Genius had lag. Is that fun to watch? Guess it depends on what you want.
Next time, let's leave the Koreans out.
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On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous....
You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them?
The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys?
The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on?
The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing?
Yeah... You don't think that was latency?
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On March 27 2011 11:30 suejak wrote:
Next time, let's leave the Koreans out.
This. It just brings up drama and kills the legitimacy of the tournament. Any hints of internet issues will bring up problems in an online tournament.
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Lag doesn't occur in a vacuum. Sometimes if you are used to playing a certain way and something changes that, it can affect you psychologically.
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I'm very curious to all the latency issues here. I want to ask whether the TSL ever tried to use the SEA server for KR-EU matches instead of NA.
and also how bad is the latency for EU-SEA and KR-SEA?
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If the game was being hosted by a server in California, about 5500 miles from Europe and 5500 miles from Seoul, and the server needs to send the updated game scenario to the player and the players response needs to get back to the esrver (so lag represents time for the signal to get there plus time to send signal back), then the latency due to the distance is about 59 msec. [(5500 miles / speed of light)*2]. Even if the players played on the EU server, and the connection between Seoul and the EU had to run along this route, 5500 miles x 2, the latency due to the distance would only be 120 msec. If the latencies are really in the 300s or 400s between Korea and EU, most of it must be routers, pathing, delays, or what not along the way, not intrinsic to the distance between Korea and EU.
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sigh saw highlighted post by jinro with no spoiler tags I was debating with myself whether it would be safe to check this out and I came to the wrong conclusion, lesson learned I guess.
Very informative post though will help with context when I watch the games I hope. Had been wondering about the lag between kr-na/eu and it's really good to hear from someone in the know and it doesn't hurt when it's a two time gsl semifinalist talking about it
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Jinro smacking down mad truths on nerds everywhere.
Good thread to have spotlighted, now hopefully we'll get less latency discussions/derailments in the LR's!
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I certainly feel the series with goody and nestea came down to decision making.
Series spoiler follows
+ Show Spoiler +
After the 1st game, which goody lost with mech, nestea tries to play extremely greedy the next 2 games. Goody adjusted accordingly and punished him, attacking with hellion marine in game 2 and following it up with banshees, and more marine hellion after his 1st attack was so successful.
The next game he did a much earlier attack than one would expect from mech, sieging nesteas natural from the low ground. Then backstabbing and craziness followed, which goody got the better end of. I noticed that when nestea had all those roaches in goody's main, he went for his scv's with all of them, instead of just using 2 or 3 to kill scv's while camping goody's production structures with the rest of the roaches. This decision allowed goody to get tanks out and put them in siege mode to eventually end the roach raid on his main.
Anyway, I think anyone could agree this series was clearly a battle of decisions. (and a little bit of insight by goody, he seemed to know nestea would play greedy after the 1st game)
I'm sure however there are many Korean fans in an uproar over the results. Seeing their GSL champions devastated at the hands of foreigners.
BTW, I feel in large part that Korean superiority in SC2, has been an assumption based on BW's history. Clearly, if a small skill gap exists, it can be overcome with preparation. Korean SC2 players are nowhere near the seemingly invincible play, compared to foreigners, they possessed in BW.
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I'm glad to read the opinion of someone with your experience on this subject. And I couldn't agree more about it.
Lag seemed to take the best of this players in some situations, but it really looks that it could be addressed with proper practice given the scenario, and there was some huge blunders that cannot be tagged as Lag Issues.
I hope that this round will serve as a precedent so the players involved in this kind of cross region matches take the necessary measures to minimize the impact of lag in their gameplay.
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Practicing with lag will only minimize the disadvantage. I mean, imagine playing with a much slower reaction time, you're obviously not gonna be playing at your best. When I saw Nestea losing so many of his units because he decided to pull back after he was already halfway across to the siege tanks I thought that must be due to the lag, not because Nestea is indecisive, and that's really something that wouldn't be fixed through practice.
Just by going off of what some koreans have had to say and what happened to boxer (disconnecting out of no where in game 1) I'd say that the Japanese earthquake has made it much worse.
It's easy to say with hindsight bias that "oh, he made terrible decisions" but well, it wouldn't have looked so terrible if you're able to micro your army and target down siege tanks and such.
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Thanks for this info, I wasn't awake to watch it and this can sort of explain the losses (a bit)
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EPT
