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Nobody can say that the games have thus far been played in equal conditions, and whether the lag can be overcome by practice or not isn't really the question. Goody, QXC, and Adelscott all played wonderfully. But the cloud of doubt is going to hang over those games and every game involving the KR-NA latency issue going forward, and that overall WILL cheapen the tournament results. It sucks, but there's nothing that can really be done about it.
TSL3 has been and will continue to be awesome, but it sadly won't give us an accurate indication of where foreigners stand relative to the Koreans. Which is unfortunate, because I bet you at least one out of QXC/Goody/Adelscott would've taken their series lag or no lag.
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Braavos36375 Posts
On March 27 2011 14:05 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:59 Myles wrote:
Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post. Interesting. Is it in the ToS (Term of Service) of this forum?
Yes.
TL 10 Commandments
Don't be a drama queen martyr. TeamLiquid isn't colonial America or Tienanmen Square. You do not need to preemptively declare "I'm going to be banned for this..." or "ban me, I don't care." Our Moderators ban for good reasons. If they read someone acting like a martyr, they'll simply treat it as a request to be banned.
Martyring could be a huge problem for our mods because it's a lose-lose situation. If you ban martyrs it looks like they were right about your "biased" moderation. If you don't ban them then you encourage more martyring and passive-aggressive jabs at biased moderation. So we simply remove the choice, and state that every martyr is an auto-ban regardless of what they say.
If you offer constructive criticism we always try to receive it fairly.
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Ah. Thank you for the clarification, Hot_Bid. Greatly appreciated.
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On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote:
nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency.
even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid....
it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency?
Maybe lag played a small part in the reaction timing there, but as its been stated the "2 second delay" was wildly exaggerated, and that whole interchange with the roaches lasted like 8 seconds...... even with a latency issue it wasn't a very good move by NesTea.
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On March 27 2011 14:06 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote:
Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual." Jinro answered to this post, but not to the question. Would be interesting to hear a take on this from a knowledgable person who has seen the game! MVP lost a marine to a probe surround. He then lost a reaper to a probe surround. He then let a stalker get away from a fight with a marine and marauder with concussive shells. Yes you heard that correctly, the units were standing still, fighting, and then the stalker just started to walk off without the marauder continuing to slow him, making it that much easier for Adel to defend his super ridiculous 15 nexus (not bashing the strat, risks can pay off, like we just saw in this game). Early units like these are crucial to the direction and outcome of the game when you have one player building his nexus before gateway on close (air) positions. Maybe I'm spoiled from Brood War, but it's simply very hard to imagine any progamer making mistakes like these. Yes, maybe the players did make bad calls and bad moves later on in the game, but that is not where stuff like this matters most (which is in the early game, like in MVP vs Adel 2). Maybe MVP is that bad. And I absolutely agree that Koreans should have prepared better. But that is the only argument that somewhat alleviates the disappointment in this TSL day at all and it really doesn't do much for me (mainly because adjustment to lag is not part of Starcraft itself, but even more outside of it than meta game is). I was so hyped for this and being forced to doubt the legitimacy of the outcomes of the games just ruins it... I'm not saying that the winners are bad players at all. They played very well and I'm a great fan of seeing them succeed (and a fan of GoOdy even when he doesn't succeed : D), especially against 'mighty' Koreans. But that makes the doubt that any reasonably inquiring and sceptical person must have even more painful.
The marine surround I think can easily be explained with just bad luck. Marine was standing relatively close to the ramp(so probably no vision of incoming probes) and shooting the nexus, so if MVP was macroing at that time it means easy surround and nothing to do with lag. The others who knows.
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On March 27 2011 14:11 Resolve wrote:TSL Day 3 Spoilers + Show Spoiler +The foreigners played well yesterday, and the koreans were obviously not at the top of their games - due to the lag or not, maybe? Some points to consider :
MVP Game 1 : MVP died when his push failed. Adelscott had more bases running (although his macro was slipping hard it didn't matter when he's so far ahead) and better upgrades, but MVP held out for a decent duration. MVP should've died much earlier though = =
MVP Game 2 : 15 nexus. I don't really know how viable that is but it worked in that game so well because MVP got his marine surrounded by probes uncharacteristically, and the same happened to the reaper that did almost nothing. Game went on and it became quite close, but MVP's bio control was sub-par, the kiting felt really weird. He probably wasn't used to microing in the delay I guess as Jinro mentioned, and then made some questionable decisions to go on to lose the game.
Overall : I don't know man. MVP seems inconsistent against protoss, although his performances in the GSTL kinda show that he's not that terrible in the match up. Lag played a part but I think he might've lost anyway, but we should've seen a game 3... (I think he would've won game 2 if he could control his units without the latency.)
Genius Game 1 : Just didn't play as well as he should.
Genius Game 2 : Forcefields kept missing. Most important moment was when qxc sniped his natural early game, which I think shouldn't have happened. Still, genius had the advantage for most of early-mid game, but failed to capitalise on it. I feel that he should've gone colossus instead of templar and would've won from there. qxc played brilliantly the rest of the game though, and denied him the win.
Overall : qxc feels like the better player overall. genius is probably better in the early-mid game but qxc played absolutely phenomenal in both games with the expansion timings and multi-harass all game long. Like the Adelscott/MVP games, we should've seen a 3rd game because I think qxc shouldn't have been able to snipe the natural, which really helped him get back into the game.
Nestea Game 1 : Gave away free zerglings (bad) and roaches (lag?) but won with brood lords. Absolutely stomped goody.
Nestea Game 2 : Nice all-in from goody. Caught Nestea by surprise. Nothing to see here.
Nestea Game 3 : Really weird game. I don't know what he should've done but I guess splitting up the army didn't work well. Apparently Nestea also missed key upgrades.
Overall : Nestea played poorly this series imo. One thing to consider though we didn't see any heavy mutalisk play from his games? It is because of the lag (can't micro them properly = cannot really abuse the mobility so might as well don't get too many of them or any at all) or the opponent's build (goody had many many scary thors). Goody has a nice build but I think his mechanics is kinda lacking compared to other players.
What I thought after seeing the games. I might've missed some things because it was like 6am when the games ended so pardon me if I wrote some absolute bullshit up there. ><
The majority of the things that you addressed were due to lag: MVP's micro mistakes, Genius's lag force fields, Nestea's suicide units and failure to hold off Goody with micro.
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I agree that not being used to play with lag is probably a bigger factor than the actual lag. If koreans are getting almost lan latency on the KR server and they don't play events on other servers, there's no need to practice regularly on other servers, meaning when they do play it will feel very different.
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i guess one can never put latency concern aside especially when more and more cross region international online tournaments going on around the world.. it's just part of the game... every player who participate knew that beforehand.. eventually player that took it seriously and well-prepared will prevail.. there're simply no true indication of cross-region skill differences summarized from these online tourneys..
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Another thing is that Koreans, because of their highly disciplined practice regime know more refined play, precise timings and strategies that can require good micro in order to succeed or be viable, which might additionally increase their vulnerability to lag, although that has little to do with determining whether or not lag was an issue with things in the games whose course has already been set in stone.
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Braavos36375 Posts
Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
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On March 27 2011 14:32 Lobo2me wrote:
I agree that not being used to play with lag is probably a bigger factor than the actual lag. If koreans are getting almost lan latency on the KR server and they don't play events on other servers, there's no need to practice regularly on other servers, meaning when they do play it will feel very different.
most probably that is what happening now..
at current state i think koreans will always prioritize GSL and their team coaches will not be happy their team members spending too much time practicing on NA server tryiing to adapt to the latency
however it is a good testing ground for them to understand and get know of the foreign scene.. vise-versa for the foreigner.. knowing that they can take on the koreans in all mean.. its a win-win situation for everyone
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote:
Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
That may be so, but that doesn't explain every situation.
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So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN?
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yeah lag played a factor. nestea in particular just played bad though (roaches by production facilities = checkmate usually, keeping burrowed roaches getting killed for like a whole minute...there is no minute lag, wasting lings to not even kill a bunker).
i still refuse to believe that MVP, even on an off day, would micro that poorly tho. i don't know much about genius, but i would guess he is better at FFs and storms.
BUT if they practiced on NA, they would've minimized it at least. also, protoss is best with lag as it's the most 1A-able race. get ready to see any remaining korean toss (is it just MC?) make those collosus balls that are so fun to watch
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On March 27 2011 14:53 GreEny K wrote:
So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN?
Read his post: He didn't say that. He mentioned only Korea. And Korea has one of the best internet infrastructure in the world
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thanks for the clarification jinro!!!
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i really do hope that practicing on NA, and infrastructure recovering from quake will be able to make these kinds of tournaments better in the future. otherwise, koreans won't want to play at much, and it will take a while for the foreign scene to get big enough that top tier koreans will be willing to fly out for matches.
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It doesn't matter whatever the agreement is. The whole thing is moot. This tournament is online, and we will never be able to make assumptions based on the results of the TSL. It's a WONDERFUL event, and I greatly thank Teamliquid.net for organizing such a high production show.
However in the context of declaring who is better, it's unfortunate. The high latency and packet loss exists. Yes blame it or not, assumptions cannot be made based on this. Perhaps for the next TSL, divide it into two regions, (or three even?) with EU, KR and NA eliminating each other in their region, and the best of each meeting at the end of the tournament. Play long series in a Home and Away format, instead of in a "both get screwed, one more than the other" format. That way, while it will still be largely subjective, it'll at least be more fair for each of the players.
Looking forward to the real even playing field events like MLG, IEM, and Dreamhack. Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context.
</3
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Braavos36375 Posts
On March 27 2011 15:13 fer wrote:
Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context. Sad that most of the big names rejected the invitation in favour of TSL.
What? Who rejected playing in GSL WC for TSL? In fact, three of the players still in the TSL (White-Ra, Morrow, Sen) are playing in the GSL WC.
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We're only talking about the Koreans here, is the connection so good for Europeans on NA? Is there no lag at all for the germans such as goody and hasu0bs !?
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EPT
