EPTAnd Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats.
The Team Liquid Book Club - Page 4
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negativedge
4279 Posts
And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 03 2013 08:45 negativedge wrote: Technically, most of Beckett's canonical works are in French. And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats. Yeah, I suppose including Beckett in that list is problematic given his love for the French language, though I am relatively unaware as to how the academy views the reading and consumption of Beckett in English as opposed to French (as I do not know French, I've only read Beckett in English  ) In any case, you are right to point out that Irish was popular as a means of cultural celebration during the time period. It is most certainly incredibly interesting to consider Joyce's role in the popularity and spread of the use of Irish as a means of Irish cultural expression; his leaving Dublin in 1912, never to return, almost certainly played a role in his decision to use English as his primary written language, in addition to political disputes with the Gaelic Revival movement. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 03 2013 09:12 babylon wrote: I don't have much background in Joyce, and I am not sure how popular his Irish pieces are (so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), but I wonder if some of his English pieces are given more attention simply because of their overwhelming complexity. (I am of course thinking about Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake.) People tend to notice more puzzling stories (i.e. those in which the meaning can be widely contested) over clear stories (whose meaning is much more straightforward where any sort of discussion doesn't add much to a person's overall understanding of the work in question). I think you're on to something here; while it is unlikely that Joyce played any conscionable role in the association of his work with the Irish cultural revival, history and the Western Canon seem quite alright with putting his works at the forefront of what is considered "Irish", when in reality, a great deal of Joyce's choices insofar as the language, structure, and direction of his works speak to an interest in English language formalism. His correspondence and friendship with Ezra Pound no doubt played a role in this; in fact, one can trace the roots of Modernism rather neatly alongside the many literary friendships of Pound. Imagism, a proto-Modernist literary movement in poetry which focused on using language in a more "precise" manner (partly in response to the stylizations of the Romantic and Victorian poetry which dominated the limelight), spread throughout Europe due in large part to the friendships of Pound, and it would make a great deal of sense to think that Joyce felt compelled to carry over this inherent criticism towards standard literary form in his own works post-Dubliners. With this in mind, it becomes clear that, while Joyce clearly loved his native country, a focus on authentic/organic "Irish" culture proved of less importance to Joyce than his pursuit of challenging the strictures of English-language expression. Dublin became more a vehicle than the focus post-Dubliners it would seem. | ||
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Kamille
Monaco1035 Posts
On May 03 2013 08:45 negativedge wrote: Technically, most of Beckett's canonical works are in French. And Irish was quite popular at the turn of the century. They didn't call it the Irish revival for nothing. It has faded in historical relevance, and that is probably due in large part to Joyce, who detested everyone associated with the movement save Yeats. I don't think his English translations pose that much of a problem, since he did his own translations. If another translator worked on a text instead of the author, I'd have more of a problem with the translation as an interpretation. | ||
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negativedge
4279 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
lots of creepy old dudes up in this though. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:31 nunez wrote: i enjoyed the sisters, what gloom. lots of creepy old dudes up in this though. Haha, yes, there is a fair amount of creepy in Dubliners, and "An Encounter" is perhaps one of the best little stories of creepy in English Lit. Hope everyone's reading is going well. | ||
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123Gurke
France154 Posts
I liked farva's first piece of background information a lot, so please keep them coming. If you have some basic information on Modernism, please post that as well. I really have no background on this at all, but I would like to learn. One small request: Please keep the amount of poetry in this thread low. Poetry is even hard in your native language when you have all the cultural background. But when you do not even understand all the words (and some of them are hard to find in dictionaries) and cannot decipher any of the symbols the author uses, poetry gets really hard. Literature in a foreign language is hard anyway, so at least keeping poetry out would make life easier for me as a non-native speaker. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
I don't think we'll be focusing much on poetry, just using some poems as illustrative examples. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On May 05 2013 02:27 babylon wrote: Gurke, if you have ample free time (or have a mindless job during which you can put on youtube like me), you might want to check out this open course series on literary theory. It's a crash course and more about the history of lit. theory than the history of literature, but those two subjects tend to intersect more often than not, and you may find it interesting. I don't think we'll be focusing much on poetry, just using some poems as illustrative examples. Thank you, I had to do maths this week, and read Kant and Dubliners. And now I'll have to look at that on top of thing ! Ahah, first part of introduction was really interesting, looking forward to watching the rest ! | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 04 2013 19:21 123Gurke wrote: I have read the first three stories once now. I will read them again later when I have a general idea of what this is all about. If I want to get much out of this, I feel I need your help. I have no background on Irish history or history of literature, so anything you can explain to me wil probably help. I liked farva's first piece of background information a lot, so please keep them coming. If you have some basic information on Modernism, please post that as well. I really have no background on this at all, but I would like to learn. One small request: Please keep the amount of poetry in this thread low. Poetry is even hard in your native language when you have all the cultural background. But when you do not even understand all the words (and some of them are hard to find in dictionaries) and cannot decipher any of the symbols the author uses, poetry gets really hard. Literature in a foreign language is hard anyway, so at least keeping poetry out would make life easier for me as a non-native speaker. By Monday I'll have another bit on the beginnings of Modernism up, mostly in regards to the artistic side of things (one cannot speak on Modernism without talking about the Post-Impressionists and Roger Fry). As to the stories, keep in mind that part of Dubliners' style is a disregard for conventional notions of plot movement and story, so if you read them and are left thinking, "Well what's the point?", that's quite alright. As for the poetry, the teacher in me is compelled to attempt to help you understand the poetry rather than eschew it all together, so if you've any questions on the two I've posted so far, feel free to hit me up with a list of words and phrases that are unfamiliar or difficult to access. If the second poem (The Hosting of the Sidhe) is the one troubling you, keep in mind that a lot of the words are actually Irish and not English, and you are likely right alongside a fair number of English speakers in not understanding them. I'm of the opinion that far more people would enjoy poetry if only they were given the proper means with which to read it, so I'll do my best to keep the poetry to a relative minimum while explaining as much as I can. Considering that the poetry of T.E. Hulme and Ezra Pound form the backbone to the emergence of literary Modernism in a sense, I think we sort of have to go through the pains of reading some | ||
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123Gurke
France154 Posts
 But English poems are just hard for me. Feel free to add poems if you think they are necessary and helpful for the discussion. Just be aware that for some of us non-native speakers they might not be helpful.The style of Dubliners does not confuse me too much. I guess I have read (and enjoyed) stranger stuff. And after rading the first four stories, I have a general idea of what these stories will be like. So far I find this book club very interesting and I think Dubliners if probably a good choice to start this off. @babylon: Thanks for the link! I do not have the time to watch this right now, but I hope to do it in a few weeks when things are less busy. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Ses purs ongles très haut dédiant leur onyx, L'Angoisse, ce minuit, soutient, lampadophore, Maint rêve vespéral brûlé par le Phénix Que ne recueille pas de cinéraire amphore Sur les crédences, au salon vide : nul ptyx Aboli bibelot d'inanité sonore, (Car le Maître est allé puiser des pleurs au Styx Avec ce seul objet dont le Néant s'honore.) Mais proche la croisée au nord vacante, un or Agonise selon peut-être le décor Des licornes ruant du feu contre une nixe, Elle, défunte nue en le miroir, encor Que, dans l'oubli fermé par le cadre, se fixe De scintillations sitôt le septuor. Well, I think in terms of meaning, almost no level of familiarity with the French language would help - either you've already stuided the poem in question, or you're very smart and you have quite some time to think about it, or well, you're probably thinking wtf is this. But the native French speaker has an advantage : he has a direct understanding of the musicality of the poem. I think that's what the hardest to understand, and what makes foreign poetry pretty discouraging. Especially betwqeen French and English for instance, as the musicality work is such different ways... Luckily, it seems that what farvacola intends with poetry has more to do with the meaning of it, than with its musicality, and as long as we don't choose a poetry book, we should be fine on that matter. If I can digress a bit more, the course provided by Babylon, it's pretty incredible how I know a bit with every non-English-speaking source used in the course, in part because there are a ton of French ones^^, and I know almost none of the English speaking ones... Proof that the discussion group is going to be useful ! Anyway, onto An Encounter :D | ||
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packrat386
United States5077 Posts
A: Are they meant to all be about the same person? I've only just started reading the second story and it seems like it would make a difference whether this might be the same person. B: Are these meant to be autobiographical in any way? It would be an interesting insight to joyce's views on several things if he thinks the same way as his characters do. I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life, especially the further back you go in irish history. This story seemed to convey that pretty well. Looking forward to "An Encounter"! | ||
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negativedge
4279 Posts
All writing is autobiographical in one way or another. As far as these stories being directly reflective of episodes in Joyce's life, no, that is not generally thought to be the case. But these stories are supposed to represent the Irish character and condition that Joyce observed and partook in. If you want actual autobiography, you should read Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. It is not perfectly analogous with Joyce's life--particularly in mood--but it is his story and many of his beliefs, adn in it he reorients writer and written work in a way fairly unseen up until that point. --I may have lied in the first sentence of this post. There are some who believe that the protagonist of "The Sisters," "An Encounter," and "Araby" is Stephen Dedalus (the protagonist of the Portrait). I don't think this would play much of a role in deciding how autobiographical these stories are versus the rest of the book, as the collection itself is very much a whole meant to give a particular impression of Dublin. It is an interesting idea within the Joyce mythology and for those more interested in the particular literary role of Stephen in Joyce's work (and that is a much larger story), but it is entirely possible to read these stories without any idea of whether or not they share a protagonist. The rest of the stories are less ambiguous in this particular way. On May 06 2013 05:05 packrat386 wrote:I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life You will see this at every point in Joyce's work--even when you don't think you are seeing it. Religious identity is at the heart of Irish history and Irish life. At the turn of the century (which is when these stories were written and take place), Catholicism is the central facet of Irish daily life and political identity, but it is also feeling the weight of the tentative opposition from the Irish revival, the Gaelic League, Sinn Fein, and other nationalist movements (as well as tensions with the Protestant and even Jewish minorities within Ireland). Joyce himself often referred to Ireland has bowing to the twin giants of Rome and London, and he eventually fled in no small part because of those fealties. Joyce's relationship with religion and with the cultural heritage bequeathed to him by it is everywhere in his work. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21243 Posts
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 06 2013 05:05 packrat386 wrote: Just finished the sisters and I was wondering a couple things about the stories given that they are written in the first person A: Are they meant to all be about the same person? I've only just started reading the second story and it seems like it would make a difference whether this might be the same person. B: Are these meant to be autobiographical in any way? It would be an interesting insight to joyce's views on several things if he thinks the same way as his characters do. I think the story was pretty interesting. I have a decent amount of iris family, and from them as well as other stuff that I've read (notably angela's ashes) I get the sense of a pretty significant role of religion (particularly the catholic chrurch) in society and personal life, especially the further back you go in irish history. This story seemed to convey that pretty well. Looking forward to "An Encounter"! Though negativedge and Carnivorous Sheep have already given more than sufficient answers, I'll add a bit of my own perspective. A: Almost certainly not. There do exist people who will tell you that you ought to be open to the possibility of such an interrelation, but I am of the opinion that such a ploy requires an overindulgent emphasis on relativistic reader response as the primary means of analyzing a book. In other words, while the reader more or less has "the last word" when it comes to interpretation (even this is controversial ), I think there is enough evidence in style and characterization throughout Dubliners to relegate the "is this the same character?" idea pretty toothless.B. This is a very difficult question, in that it hinges on a fundamental concern of literary criticism, that being the question of, "How close are author and work, and is there an essential distance?" One could ask this at 100 different English departments and receive 100 different answers, though some will definitely be more right than others. My personal answer would be, "Maybe, and maybe.". What ends up being important here harkens back to what I said in regards to the choice of lens and the manner with which one wants or needs to read a book. If we are to approach Dubliners in a general sense, I think one ought to eschew concerns for autobiography in pursuit of an "organic" experience; the general focus is on the place and people of Dublin, and one can come to a very satisfactory understanding of the work without forcing themselves to look for the places in which Joyce becomes transparent in authorial intent (they certainly do exist). Alternatively, if one approaches Dubliners from the perspective of " Who is James Joyce the author?", the stylizations and rhetorical decisions made throughout Dubliners all provide ample opportunity for such a reading. As others have already said, Dubliners acts as as sort of literary "stepping stone" for Joyce in that it tends more towards realism a la Henrik Ibsen and Gustave Flaubert, especially for the first 3/4 of the book. This was also his first major work (Chamber Music doesn't quite count imo), and as we make our way through it, it will become clear that, by the time he finished the final story (The Dead), his attitudes towards style and form had most certainly changed. | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
And I hope I'll be able to finish the assigned task, but I don't have much time. | ||
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farvacola
United States18826 Posts
On May 08 2013 04:33 blubbdavid wrote: Why do you guys read? What is your motivation in a world where you get strange looks when you carry around a book. And I hope I'll be able to finish the assigned task, but I don't have much time. Well, as an aside on actual books as opposed to digital medial, I simply enjoy holding and reading from paper. Even the smell of actual books trumps anything a Kindle or e-reader can provide. I'm also a victim of my upbringing; having grown up with a father and mother who instilled in me a certain disregard for those who did not read voraciously, I struggle daily to look for the best in those who do not share my love for the written word. Far too many people put the horse before the cart in thinking that writing and speaking come before reading in order of importance, and I think this plays a large role in a lot of the political and societal problems the world faces today. With any luck, this book club will get a few more people reading, and that's really all that I can ask | ||
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