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Hello, all!
It's become quite apparent that many of you are not reading the first post carefully.
Failure to do so in the future will be met with swift punishment. And as always, remember to be civil.
Thanks,
Empyrean. Time stamp: 03:59 KST. |
On May 09 2011 04:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:28 smileyface22 wrote:On May 09 2011 04:22 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:17 Arkan wrote:
Frankly as one of the biggest sites for SC I think it time to completetly overhaul their forum rules Why do you think we're the biggest site for SC. Because you had the existing infrastructure and there's no other serious competitors? By "existing infrastructure", I can only assume you mean our existing userbase (otherwise, that's silly as there were tons of websites up before the beta even came out). Now, why do you think we've maintained a large userbase and reputation? Oh, and if you think we've never had serious competitors, then you probably haven't followed the Broodwar scene at all. There were many sites in the early days of BW (many even bigger than TL for a while) that don't exist anymore. Again, there are reasons for that.
I would really like your post but there is one small thing that i don't like about it:
It kind of gives me the feeling you are trying to say (i will be exaggerating here): We have the best mods that never make mistakes and that is how we kept our followers. Yes your mods are good and reasonable, but we all make mistakes, and i can't help feeling that you are trying to just say all of our followers have stayed BECAUSE of our mods. That again is not completely true.
Team liquid is the largest site in western SCII because so many pros used in brood war, and casters reference it all the time. I, like many, came here because casters gave shout outs, i never googled or anything, so i think its more important that you have the long standing pros, instead of brilliant mods. Anyway this was just so completely off topic 
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I'm a fan of idra but i think this decision was for the best. Honestly, I'm surprised he wasn't perma banned for trying to bully a moderator on it's own forum. In the end, this is their playgrond and they can do whatever they want. I'm glad they left his stream in, thought.
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I don't really understand why TL doesn't permaban IdrA outright. Every time the guy posts it sets off 15 pages of flamewars, his manners are terrible, and clearly has no respect for either the moderating staff or community at large. Its not like this is the first, or even the fifth, time he's intentionally stirred up a shitstorm. Why keep giving him chance after chance?
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On May 09 2011 04:48 Elthreann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:28 smileyface22 wrote:On May 09 2011 04:22 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:17 Arkan wrote:
Frankly as one of the biggest sites for SC I think it time to completetly overhaul their forum rules Why do you think we're the biggest site for SC. Because you had the existing infrastructure and there's no other serious competitors? By "existing infrastructure", I can only assume you mean our existing userbase (otherwise, that's silly as there were tons of websites up before the beta even came out). Now, why do you think we've maintained a large userbase and reputation? Oh, and if you think we've never had serious competitors, then you probably haven't followed the Broodwar scene at all. There were many sites in the early days of BW (many even bigger than TL for a while) that don't exist anymore. Again, there are reasons for that. I would really like your post but there is one small thing that i don't like about it: It kind of gives me the feeling you are trying to say (i will be exaggerating here): We have the best mods that never make mistakes and that is how we kept our followers. Yes your mods are good and reasonable, but we all make mistakes, and i can't help feeling that you are trying to just say all of our followers have stayed BECAUSE of our mods. That again is not completely true. Team liquid is the largest site in western SCII because so many pros used in brood war, and casters reference it all the time. I, like many, came here because casters gave shout outs, i never googled or anything, so i think its more important that you have the long standing pros, instead of brilliant mods. Anyway this was just so completely off topic
I don't think he said anywhere in that post that the mods never make mistakes. Also, why do you think pros came here instead of going to the other sites?
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United States22883 Posts
On May 09 2011 04:45 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:43 aruken wrote:
I still thinks Idra's statement about Cruncher (i think) is nothing more than a statement and preventing progamers from stating thing on this forum has no value and is, imo, a harm to the community (yes people have the right to enjoy a player and a player have the right to build a character without a mod having a say about it). My last thoughts on the matter Three's plenty of places they can express their opinion about another player, such as twitter, their stream, and so on. This is the "only" place that doesn't allow insulting and flaming, because it doesn't contribute anything useful.
I for one enjoy trash talking but there's a difference between saying "you're a shitty alliner who can only go 2hatch muta" vs. "he's a waste of life." IdrA's most awesome BM has always been about tearing people's play apart, not just calling them names. I wonder how many IdrA fans here even know who OctoberZerg is.
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On May 09 2011 04:43 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:37 mr.reee wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. I also find great hypocrisy reading through his warnings and bans from TL. So many of them are for bm and insulting posts, but most of them include bm and insults back at Idra. What do you mean?
I think he means Chill's explanations for his bans and warnings have BM of his own in them. Like IdrA will post something BMing someone else and Chill will BM IdrA right back in the explanation. I can only assume this is what he meant, and I have to agree that this is the case and I don't think it should happen. Regardless of personal feelings, I think mods should simply post a reason ("Spam", "BM") and leave all of the commentary out of it when banning or warning people.
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not to disagree, but why was a separate post needed to display IdrA's ban
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On May 09 2011 04:43 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:37 mr.reee wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. I also find great hypocrisy reading through his warnings and bans from TL. So many of them are for bm and insulting posts, but most of them include bm and insults back at Idra. What do you mean?
Reading through the image on page 1 (http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg) with a history of TL warnings/bans to idra, many of them (the team liquid messages) are insulting, and bad mannered. For example, "All 3 of you need to grow up," or, "we would still like you to use a toilet before when to the bathroom," or, "use your freetime to do something other than stare at a screen." There is one message from TeamLiquid to idra calling him a douchebag.
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Idra himself stated on State of the game (with regards to the discussion about TLAF-Liquid not joining the team league) that the TL forums is THE site when it comes to discussing SC2, so it is really disappointing to see him go and do such a thing.
Justified ban is justified.
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On May 09 2011 04:20 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:17 Arkan wrote:
Whole issue has been blown out of proportion. It's not like idrA made a thread about his disgust about Cruncher, it was isolated in the fan club page. I dont know why the admins feel such a need to moderate every word of every post so thoroughly. Frankly as one of the biggest sites for SC I think it time to completetly overhaul their forum rules, of course if they actually care about the expansion of eSports. If every visitor is banned for expressing their opinion I dont think were getting anywhere -.- We don't want to "get anywhere," because TL was perfect before SC2 came out..
Then I might suggest locking registration and banning all inactive users, should provide good isolation.
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On May 09 2011 04:51 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:43 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 04:37 mr.reee wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. I also find great hypocrisy reading through his warnings and bans from TL. So many of them are for bm and insulting posts, but most of them include bm and insults back at Idra. What do you mean? I think he means Chill's explanations for his bans and warnings have BM of his own in them. Like IdrA will post something BMing someone else and Chill will BM IdrA right back in the explanation. I can only assume this is what he meant, and I have to agree that this is the case and I don't think it should happen. Regardless of personal feelings, I think mods should simply post a reason ("Spam", "BM") and leave all of the commentary out of it when banning or warning people.
Just as a point of interest, Chill's neutrality and fairness have been questioned numerous times even in the short time I've been a part of TL. I like the guy but I have to wonder if the repeated grievances brought against him have some merit; it doesn't seem likely to me that so many people from so many different sections of TL would fabricate lies about him, but I could be wrong.
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Russian Federation5 Posts
On May 09 2011 04:46 IMABUNNEH wrote:
I personally feel the original ban was poor moderation on Chill's part. Idra was banned for saying Cruncher was a waste of space, it's not like he was saying it directly to Cruncher, he wasn't trolling, he was posting his opinion in the topic as it was being talked about. Cruncher's "reply" in his own stream thread was OBVIOUS trolling, blatantly against the forum rules, and he didn't even get warned. That is exactly what I was trying to say.
I'm completely ok with Idra being banned, but what about Cruncher? Yes, I've read 10 rules, but there is no rule that says someone can get away with something that other person didn't.
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I would definitely say I would be counted among IdrA's "fanboys". I love the way he plays the game and to some degree his "I don't give a shit" attitude, plus the fact that some of the stuff he says just makes the whole scene more interesting. I also think he has some good points to make on balance, state of the game, so forth.
That being said, what he did was over the line. The thing I don't think he realizes is how much TL as a community has contributed to his success. His actions on this site and his comments toward mods have really been unacceptable and undeserved considering how much TL and the people who work for it contribute to the E-Sports scene. Considering his mod history, I think we all knew this day would come. That being said, we also all know that this isn't going to change IdrA's attitude. Some people may call for a perma-ban, but I think that, despite IdrA's attitude, it would still be a disaster for E-Sports.
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is awesome32269 Posts
On May 09 2011 04:52 mr.reee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:43 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 04:37 mr.reee wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. I also find great hypocrisy reading through his warnings and bans from TL. So many of them are for bm and insulting posts, but most of them include bm and insults back at Idra. What do you mean? Reading through the image on page 1 (http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg) with a history of TL warnings/bans to idra, many of them (the team liquid messages) are insulting, and bad mannered. For example, "All 3 of you need to grow up," or, "we would still like you to use a toilet before when to the bathroom," or, "use your freetime to do something other than stare at a screen." There is one message from TeamLiquid to idra calling him a douchebag.
The only one that stands out to me is the douchebag one, and it was because of this post:
On December 31 2010 16:43 IdrA wrote:
sit the fuck down?
lol
shut up retard. he doesnt give a rats ass about the community beyond the fact that theyre making him rich despite the fact that he has absolutely 0 noticeable talents.
if the tlaf guy hadnt been desperate to throw money at the community, and husky hadnt gotten in between those 2, he would be a nothing right now. good for him for 'making it' but dont act like anything about the whole thing is for the good of the community.
User was temp banned for this post.
But i didn't handle the ban, so i will refrain from commenting on it :p
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On May 09 2011 04:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:28 smileyface22 wrote:On May 09 2011 04:22 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:17 Arkan wrote:
Frankly as one of the biggest sites for SC I think it time to completetly overhaul their forum rules Why do you think we're the biggest site for SC. Because you had the existing infrastructure and there's no other serious competitors? By "existing infrastructure", I can only assume you mean our existing userbase (otherwise, that's silly as there were tons of websites up before the beta even came out). Now, why do you think we've maintained a large userbase and reputation? Oh, and if you think we've never had serious competitors, then you probably haven't followed the Broodwar scene at all. There were many sites in the early days of BW (many even bigger than TL for a while) that don't exist anymore. Again, there are reasons for that.
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I was referring solely to sc2, whose development I followed very closely. And no, there have been no websites beta or afterwards devoted entirely to sc2 that've had remotely the same foundation as TL unless we conglomerate 20 different replay-posting websites with a handful of mods and minimal forum/news functionality into a single entity. No other website has cared enough or put as much effort into making it THE website for sc2. While that's to be commended, I happen to disagree with your opinion that TL's success is derived from your forum rules. Effort and philosophy are two different things. However I think it's pretty clear TL is unprepared to evolve as esports evolves and I hope that's the right decision.
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On May 09 2011 04:52 mr.reee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:43 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 09 2011 04:37 mr.reee wrote:On May 08 2011 07:00 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:59 shmee wrote:On May 08 2011 06:55 Chill wrote:On May 08 2011 06:53 shmee wrote:
I completely understand banning idra for his incendiary behavior, but has Team Liquid taken any action to punish Cruncher for ghosting idra's stream, which was the thing that started this whole mess? Does teamliquid have any kind of statement in regards to that? There's nothing wrong with joining the ladder at the same time as someone else. What action could we possibly take against that? So if you were streaming, and you got matched up against idra, and he magically knew everything you were doing only to find out later that he was checking your stream to see everything you were doing, you wouldn't have any problem with that? No. I also find great hypocrisy reading through his warnings and bans from TL. So many of them are for bm and insulting posts, but most of them include bm and insults back at Idra. What do you mean? Reading through the image on page 1 (http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg) with a history of TL warnings/bans to idra, many of them (the team liquid messages) are insulting, and bad mannered. For example, "All 3 of you need to grow up," or, "we would still like you to use a toilet before when to the bathroom," or, "use your freetime to do something other than stare at a screen." There is one message from TeamLiquid to idra calling him a douchebag.
But how can you argue that he wasn't being a douchebag.
The way I see it, TL mods arent meant to ban people in the most PC way possible, they are there to ban people, thats it. How they do it and how they put their point across is entirely up to the mod.
Just look at the ban thread in the closed forums, they treat everyone the same, you only care cause its idra.
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"he's a waste of life" is such a throw away comment, I can't believe it merited such a response. There are plenty of worse derogatory statements he could have gone with given that he was probably fired up. I feel like everyone should just take it down a notch, after all it is just a forum ban that he got, it's not interfering with his stream or pretty much anything else.
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I'll preface this post by saying that I'm confused by TeamLiquid rules and would simply like to understand them better so that I may post within their guidelines. To the best of my understanding, they only apply selectively and only to a certain group of people? If you are a moderator or pro you have special privileges and will get a lesser punishment or none at all based on your status?
Full disclosure, I'm quite opposed to the Idra ban and feel that the moderators who have known him for 10+ years could have predicted his reaction and ultimately wanted this to happen. That being said, if you can't tolerate a forum user publicly encouraging harassment of moderators, than a non-permanent ban seems like a disregard of your own standards.
I hope my post wasn't too direct or inappropriate, if you need me to reword or simply edit it out any parts, please pm me and I will do so immediately.
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Not sure about current ban situation, but judging from this history...
http://i.imgur.com/cULBN.jpg
if he keeps breaking the rules I would remove his stream from the list for a couple of weeks. He benefits directly (monetarily) from TL but keeps disrespecting the rules and admins. Without a feature on TL he would have less viewers and maybe reconsider his posting a bit.
On the other hand, this would also hurt the viewers which I guess is unfair.. Imho couple of weeks to serve as a warning wouldnt hurt TL viewers a lot, but I may be wrong and I guess it's nice to see that TL cares enough about viewers not to remove the stream list (especially when he uses this stream to encourage spamming etc). In the end, in my opinion Idra should be a lot more respectful given how much TL gives him
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Baltimore, USA22250 Posts
On May 09 2011 04:48 Elthreann wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 04:41 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:28 smileyface22 wrote:On May 09 2011 04:22 EvilTeletubby wrote:On May 09 2011 04:17 Arkan wrote:
Frankly as one of the biggest sites for SC I think it time to completetly overhaul their forum rules Why do you think we're the biggest site for SC. Because you had the existing infrastructure and there's no other serious competitors? By "existing infrastructure", I can only assume you mean our existing userbase (otherwise, that's silly as there were tons of websites up before the beta even came out). Now, why do you think we've maintained a large userbase and reputation? Oh, and if you think we've never had serious competitors, then you probably haven't followed the Broodwar scene at all. There were many sites in the early days of BW (many even bigger than TL for a while) that don't exist anymore. Again, there are reasons for that. I would really like your post but there is one small thing that i don't like about it: It kind of gives me the feeling you are trying to say (i will be exaggerating here): We have the best mods that never make mistakes and that is how we kept our followers. Yes your mods are good and reasonable, but we all make mistakes, and i can't help feeling that you are trying to just say all of our followers have stayed BECAUSE of our mods. That again is not completely true.
Actually, I was referencing our site rules, not the mod team. 
I'll be the first one to admit that no one is perfect, much less any of our mods. However, we do our best to minimize bad moderation, and if an error occurs, we will own up to it. I've had no problem apologizing if I made a mistake before.
Team liquid is the largest site in western SCII because so many pros used in brood war, and casters reference it all the time. I, like many, came here because casters gave shout outs, i never googled or anything, so i think its more important that you have the long standing pros, instead of brilliant mods. Anyway this was just so completely off topic
Again, referring to our rules/moderation strategy, not the mods themselves - which did foster the environment that encouraged top players to post here, and which community do you think the casters came from?
Keep in mind, TL has been at the forefront since before VODs were even accessible. Hell, we've been doing this since the days of dial-up and battle reports. TL has gotten much bigger recently because of the available media that modern technology offers, but our core has always been the forums. And like I will keep saying, there are reasons our forums were always known for having a higher quality of posting.
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EPT
