EPThttp://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/rdj74/the_normalisation_of_racism_sexism_and_homophobia/
Correct me if I am wrong
Gay StarCraft Players - Page 274
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Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion. For regular posters, don't quote the trolls. | ||
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-Doji-
Belgium127 Posts
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/rdj74/the_normalisation_of_racism_sexism_and_homophobia/ Correct me if I am wrong | ||
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Petra37
United States20 Posts
On March 26 2012 12:29 -Doji- wrote: I feel this is relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/rdj74/the_normalisation_of_racism_sexism_and_homophobia/ Correct me if I am wrong Yes yes yes yes YES! I found this thread this weekend was because I started googling and reading about this exact issue after I saw a particular article on reddit about a certain homophobic slur embracing caster being considered for MLG. Also saw the recent incident with Orb and the thing that depressed me the most was the sheer number of people who claim it's completely OK to call things "gay" or say "faggot" because "I don't mean it as something against gays". Some of them are full of it, but some of them really don't think they're doing anything wrong! It was so depressing I actually just turned off MLG and TL and everything and walked away for a bit. Seeing this thread and feeling proud of EG eventually made me feel better, but it still sucked. Being female I really agree with Alyssas comments as well. My very first ladder game was an accident. I was trying to play against my at-the-time long distance boyfriend and I clicked the wrong button. I immediately apologized and left the ladder game I got placed in. The guy IMs me and starts bitching me out! I tried to politely explain what had happened and the second the word "boyfriend" crosses the screen he starts in on the "Ur a girl an play SC? thats hawt! wanna chat" upon being rejected he starts in on the "you're probably fat and ugly and nasty. starcraft is a mans game!" (yes he seriously said that last part). If I didn't have a WoW background as a raid leader I probably would have given up right there. Either way in my opinion it's become clear that only major community figureheads will be able to make a real change in this issue. The community as a whole doesn't see it as an issue or just doesn't care. It's been considered acceptable or just part of the gaming culture for so long that it takes major action to even start the ball rolling. The vicious cycle part of it though means that the community itself needs to make the figureheads realize it matters. I was so happy about Alex Garfield of EG addressing the slur issue both to Orb and Idra, his statement about it all is here on TL and well worth a read and some support! (I even sent a note on FB to EG about it and got a <3 as a reply. I felt allw arm and fuzzy about it) Anyway I've been verbose enough about it for the moment, but I am really happy to see this being addressed! It's a subject I've felt a little hopeless about only a few days ago and I'm hoping the continued pressure of the issue will do some real good. | ||
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Josketh
United States155 Posts
On March 26 2012 12:29 -Doji- wrote: I feel this is relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/rdj74/the_normalisation_of_racism_sexism_and_homophobia/ Correct me if I am wrong The whole issue of language is hard to discuss because many folks won't consider intention. I don't want to start a war in this thread but this is what I have to say: The speaker/writer is accountable for their words and to understand the audience that will be taking in those words. The listener/writer is accountable for interpreting the intention of those words within the context of the rest of the message. If you want to play the victim and feel bullied every time someone says "faggot" or whatever your case without a regard for the context, I care not for your argument. Depending on the where the message was coming from, I'll deal with that end as a different issue. I will not give any support to "victims" who just want to start fires for the sake of starting fires. Boosh. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
That said, how was MLG? GraV and Lakarah I wanna see pics!!! And you also need to tell us about the hugs you got. | ||
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Josketh
United States155 Posts
On March 26 2012 21:34 Klondikebar wrote: I loathe the "it's all about context!" argument that people throw around. Context doesn't remove all of the bad meanings from a word...it simply doesn't. If someone gets offended when you call them a faggot they aren't starting a fire. You should not have called them a faggot and there's no argument you can make to exonerate yourself. Placing the blame on the victim is stupid. If you and your circle of friends are fine with that word then go to town but if someone does get offended by it then you were wrong to use it. I wasn't saying place all the blame on the victim, but I am saying that just as the speaker is accountable, so is the victim. Words are not physical things that can damage your body and kill you. Words are things you have to allow to hurt you. Words are what you make them. Should people be running around using these types of words? Not really. Should a teacher get fired for saying the word to talk about discrimination or because of themes in a book? Not at all. Do I think stuff should be done to help remove the inflammatory language the gamer community is known for? To an extent, yes. I've had people call me faggot and nigger before, sometimes both at the same time. I wasn't offended. Some of those uses were geared to offend me but words will have no such power over me. All of this uproar about bullying recently is cute and all but the core remains that these kids don't have people to uplift them and teach them to love themselves. Where are the teachers and parents to show them that words are nothing if made to be nothing? That to me is a far more pressing issue than some silly words or bullying. I got into teaching because I am tired of seeing kids grow up without knowing what it is to love themselves and understand themselves. That isn't fair. I'll fight against bullying but I am also going to fight for a stronger support system in the places these kids need it. | ||
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36156 Posts
On March 27 2012 16:15 Josketh wrote: I wasn't saying place all the blame on the victim, but I am saying that just as the speaker is accountable, so is the victim. Words are not physical things that can damage your body and kill you. Words are things you have to allow to hurt you. Words are what you make them. Words can be heavily connected with physical actions, too. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On March 27 2012 16:15 Josketh wrote: I wasn't saying place all the blame on the victim, but I am saying that just as the speaker is accountable, so is the victim. Words are not physical things that can damage your body and kill you. Words are things you have to allow to hurt you. Words are what you make them. Should people be running around using these types of words? Not really. Should a teacher get fired for saying the word to talk about discrimination or because of themes in a book? Not at all. Do I think stuff should be done to help remove the inflammatory language the gamer community is known for? To an extent, yes. I've had people call me faggot and nigger before, sometimes both at the same time. I wasn't offended. Some of those uses were geared to offend me but words will have no such power over me. All of this uproar about bullying recently is cute and all but the core remains that these kids don't have people to uplift them and teach them to love themselves. Where are the teachers and parents to show them that words are nothing if made to be nothing? That to me is a far more pressing issue than some silly words or bullying. I got into teaching because I am tired of seeing kids grow up without knowing what it is to love themselves and understand themselves. That isn't fair. I'll fight against bullying but I am also going to fight for a stronger support system in the places these kids need it. You're right that people shouldn't fly off the handle when they hear that stuff but that's about as far as the accountability of the victim goes. It's reasonable to expect people to not use those words and, if they do, you should be allowed to call them out on it. I think it's adorable that you think that this just is a self esteem problem and that the bullying isn't real because it's just words. And apparently Craig Parker went full frontal on Spartacus. I have GOT to start watching that show. | ||
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RoMGraViTy
United States314 Posts
On March 27 2012 21:03 Klondikebar wrote: You're right that people shouldn't fly off the handle when they hear that stuff but that's about as far as the accountability of the victim goes. It's reasonable to expect people to not use those words and, if they do, you should be allowed to call them out on it. I think it's adorable that you think that this just is a self esteem problem and that the bullying isn't real because it's just words. And apparently Craig Parker went full frontal on Spartacus. I have GOT to start watching that show. He did indeed, i was quite surprised. | ||
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kentriarch
Singapore61 Posts
HOLY SHIT!?! I have been sitting on the latest episode for a couple of days now!! To think that I am missing out on that treasure trove...it is unspeakable!!! I just want to get in a word on this debate on words/context thing. I think it is important for us to call out people who use such derogatory language, even if we, ourselves, are not personally offended by it. This is because, we ourselves, have matured and gone through the tribulations of fire, so to speak, and are sure of our identify and self-worth. But that doesn't mean that the speaker/writer won't repeat such damaging words to others who are less sure and are still maturing. These words can cause harm to these younglings. So, I feel that we should do our part in helping to make the society a better place for all. Because I wish I don't need go through that tribulations of fire in the first place. Yes, a counter-argument can be made that, what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger. However, not everyone can be that strong. | ||
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Josketh
United States155 Posts
I was bullied nonstop my freshman year because I was small, gay, and half-black. Nothing physical, just various name calling. Nearly all of those bullies are my friends now because I was able to show them that they held no power over me. I'd even tease them back for being seniors in my freshman level classes. I'll admit that had things been physical, everything would have changed but the fact of the matter is that I refused to let their words have a hold on me. They wanted to see me sad or pissed or whatever. I gave them nothing. I want kids to have that same power. The bullies will get their just desserts but the kids being bullied need to have a support system to let them know they are above it all. None of this whiny and crying over inflammatory language and being offended by everything under the sun. Words are the kind of bullying that cannot hurt you unless you allow them to do so. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On March 28 2012 03:19 Josketh wrote: I never said bullying wasn't real, either, Klondike. I am saying that the fact that these words can hurt kids unchecked is a problem. Why do these kids kill themselves? Why don't they have support systems? I was bullied nonstop my freshman year because I was small, gay, and half-black. Nothing physical, just various name calling. Nearly all of those bullies are my friends now because I was able to show them that they held no power over me. I'd even tease them back for being seniors in my freshman level classes. I'll admit that had things been physical, everything would have changed but the fact of the matter is that I refused to let their words have a hold on me. They wanted to see me sad or pissed or whatever. I gave them nothing. I want kids to have that same power. The bullies will get their just desserts but the kids being bullied need to have a support system to let them know they are above it all. None of this whiny and crying over inflammatory language and being offended by everything under the sun. Words are the kind of bullying that cannot hurt you unless you allow them to do so. Do you understand that there's a huge difference between your situation and what actually happens to most gay teens? They aren't JUST teased with words. The words are the bullies way of saying "I will beat the shit out of you the moment the teacher turns their back." You're just delusional if you think words have no power. | ||
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Smat
United States301 Posts
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On March 28 2012 04:49 Smat wrote: Well, words only have power if you give them power. But.. most people don't have the kind of thickskin necessary to carry that belief all the way through, which is understandable. When those "words" are followed by a series of fists and a blind eye from authority figures, you tell me they don't have power. | ||
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Smat
United States301 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On March 28 2012 06:08 Smat wrote: Fists and fights aren't words though... Words are just as dangerous as actions because words are ideas. Ideas can be poorly formed and they can be infectious to others, which in turn drives actions. One example was Hitler, who used his words to bring about the "final solution to the Jewish problem." He brainwashed the masses with his words which lead to the genocide of 11 million people. There is a connection words and actions, to ignore this is simply foolish. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
I'm just going to leave this here. Pretty much everything on this website also applies to homophobia and the guy actually addresses it several times but this is pretty much how I feel about people (particularly heterosexuals) who claim that they aren't using "faggot" or "gay" in an offensive way. | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On March 28 2012 06:19 neoghaleon55 wrote: Words are just as dangerous as actions because words are ideas. Ideas can be poorly formed and they can be infectious to others, which in turn drives actions. One example was Hitler, who used his words to bring about the "final solution to the Jewish problem." He brainwashed the masses with his words which lead to the genocide of 11 million people. There is a connection words and actions, to ignore this is simply foolish. Doesn't mean we should censor the words. Let them talk, let them spew idiocy. The masses should be educated as to what is true, not kept in the dark in order to control them as if they were mere sheep. More specifically towards your example, what happens when Hitler bans any words which may possibly be used to organize against him? What happens when you can't offend and discriminate Rick Santorum for his vile beliefs? | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
On March 28 2012 06:27 Roe wrote: Doesn't mean we should censor the words. Let them talk, let them spew idiocy. The masses should be educated as to what is true, not kept in the dark in order to control them as if they were mere sheep. More specifically towards your example, what happens when Hitler bans any words which may possibly be used to organize against him? What happens when you can't offend and discriminate Rick Santorum for his vile beliefs? It's the same idea as yelling fire in a crowded Theater (it's illegal in America). Freedom of speech is nice...but there should be some limitations. If someone can get hurt because of your words, you should probably not use it. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On March 28 2012 06:27 Roe wrote: Doesn't mean we should censor the words. Let them talk, let them spew idiocy. The masses should be educated as to what is true, not kept in the dark in order to control them as if they were mere sheep. More specifically towards your example, what happens when Hitler bans any words which may possibly be used to organize against him? What happens when you can't offend and discriminate Rick Santorum for his vile beliefs? This isn't about censorship. This about who is allowed to be offended when someone is using blatantly offensive language. If you wanna use the words "final solution to the Jewish problem" or "faggot" I'm not going to stich your mouth shut, but you can bet I'm gonna call you a bigoted fucktard and do my best to avoid you. And that's how change happens. When enough people start calling you a bigot and avoiding you, you learn that your ideas are bad and that you shouldn't behave that way. The problem I'm quickly discovering with homophobia is that entirely too many people just say "oh you're getting too offended just deal with it." Nothing is going to change that way and that's not ok. If you're not comfortable with bigoted language, you need to do something about it when people spout off in your presence. And we certainly should NEVER encourage the attitude that the victim is just being too sensitive. | ||
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