Don't post in this thread to say "gay gamers are like everyone else, why do they have a special thread?" It is something that has been posted numerous times, and this isn't the place for that discussion.
On March 28 2012 06:08 Smat wrote: Fists and fights aren't words though...
Words are just as dangerous as actions because words are ideas. Ideas can be poorly formed and they can be infectious to others, which in turn drives actions. One example was Hitler, who used his words to bring about the "final solution to the Jewish problem." He brainwashed the masses with his words which lead to the genocide of 11 million people. There is a connection words and actions, to ignore this is simply foolish.
Doesn't mean we should censor the words. Let them talk, let them spew idiocy. The masses should be educated as to what is true, not kept in the dark in order to control them as if they were mere sheep. More specifically towards your example, what happens when Hitler bans any words which may possibly be used to organize against him? What happens when you can't offend and discriminate Rick Santorum for his vile beliefs?
This isn't about censorship. This about who is allowed to be offended when someone is using blatantly offensive language. If you wanna use the words "final solution to the Jewish problem" or "faggot" I'm not going to stich your mouth shut, but you can bet I'm gonna call you a bigoted fucktard and do my best to avoid you. And that's how change happens. When enough people start calling you a bigot and avoiding you, you learn that your ideas are bad and that you shouldn't behave that way.
The problem I'm quickly discovering with homophobia is that entirely too many people just say "oh you're getting too offended just deal with it." Nothing is going to change that way and that's not ok. If you're not comfortable with bigoted language, you need to do something about it when people spout off in your presence. And we certainly should NEVER encourage the attitude that the victim is just being too sensitive.
Well I agree with what you say, but what does it even mean when you say "who is allowed to be offended". Is this a social contract type thing, or a criminal thing? At any rate you should denounce the people not because they said the words, but because of who they are and what they believe.
It's the same idea as yelling fire in a crowded Theater (it's illegal in America). Freedom of speech is nice...but there should be some limitations. If someone can get hurt because of your words, you should probably not use it.
It's the same idea as yelling fire in a crowded Theater (it's illegal in America). Freedom of speech is nice...but there should be some limitations. If someone can get hurt because of your words, you should probably not use it.
It's the same idea as yelling fire in a crowded Theater (it's illegal in America). Freedom of speech is nice...but there should be some limitations. If someone can get hurt because of your words, you should probably not use it.
Reading that still left me questioning the law. Oh well, I guess some people have made up their minds that humans will forever be stuck in Plato's cave.
On March 28 2012 06:08 Smat wrote: Fists and fights aren't words though...
Words are just as dangerous as actions because words are ideas. Ideas can be poorly formed and they can be infectious to others, which in turn drives actions. One example was Hitler, who used his words to bring about the "final solution to the Jewish problem." He brainwashed the masses with his words which lead to the genocide of 11 million people. There is a connection words and actions, to ignore this is simply foolish.
Doesn't mean we should censor the words. Let them talk, let them spew idiocy. The masses should be educated as to what is true, not kept in the dark in order to control them as if they were mere sheep. More specifically towards your example, what happens when Hitler bans any words which may possibly be used to organize against him? What happens when you can't offend and discriminate Rick Santorum for his vile beliefs?
This isn't about censorship. This about who is allowed to be offended when someone is using blatantly offensive language. If you wanna use the words "final solution to the Jewish problem" or "faggot" I'm not going to stich your mouth shut, but you can bet I'm gonna call you a bigoted fucktard and do my best to avoid you. And that's how change happens. When enough people start calling you a bigot and avoiding you, you learn that your ideas are bad and that you shouldn't behave that way.
The problem I'm quickly discovering with homophobia is that entirely too many people just say "oh you're getting too offended just deal with it." Nothing is going to change that way and that's not ok. If you're not comfortable with bigoted language, you need to do something about it when people spout off in your presence. And we certainly should NEVER encourage the attitude that the victim is just being too sensitive.
Forgive me if I came in at a late time, but I feel the describing someone who has received an offending verbal assault as a victim is undermining the meaning of the word we tend to attribute to a victim of an actual crime.
In case of speech, the real victim is the moron who spouts it without providing any logical basis for having his or her conceded beliefs. Not much changes as the years go by and some of the biggest changes come as a result of a new generation respawning from the loins of the intolerant. If you're not comfortable with bigoted language, you need to adapt. Bigoted people will never be fully controlled or succumb to social pressures telling them what they're doing is "wrong". Call them out on it, but don't feed the bigots who thrive on their targets lashing out back at them. You're just going to be as moronic as they are and the best way to deal with intolerance that exists with merely words is to just ignore it and provide no sustenance to it.
Hey, Klondike, the fact that you belittled the fact that I was bullied because it was just verbal adds a bit more weight to my argument. Verbal and physical bullying are different and, in this case, we are only touching on verbal.
I've also qualified most of what I have said so that I couldn't be misread in my overall message.
What to do with words is completely secondary to the fact that the kids, gay or not, aren't being taught to value themselves and don't have support systems in place. I find that to be the root of the problem and once THAT is addressed, the rest will fall into place.
On March 28 2012 06:36 Klondikebar wrote: If you wanna use the words "final solution to the Jewish problem" or "faggot" I'm not going to stich your mouth shut, but you can bet I'm gonna call you a bigoted fucktard and do my best to avoid you.
On March 28 2012 08:24 stevarius wrote: In case of speech, the real victim is the moron who spouts it without providing any logical basis for having his or her conceded beliefs.
And now we're onto using words which are offensive to intellectually disabled people...
Any insulting word can be interpreted as offensive to some group of people. That's the whole point of an insult - it's offensive. The moment you ban a word on the basis that it is offensive to some particular group of people, you end up on a slippery slope that ends up in banning all insults whatsoever, and then you begin legislating good manners. Which is ridiculous.
Bullying, discrimination, threats - these are real and serious things. The words occasionally used in the process of carrying them out - they're just words. If someone yells "faggot!" at you, it's the act of yelling and the implied rejection/threat/etc that's hurtful, not the word itself.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
If you primarily like them because you find their feminine qualities attractive then, no. If you primarily like them because you find their male qualities attractive, yes. And I'm referring to more than just the obvious.
As an aside I really hate that term, but I'm assuming you're refering to porn here where it's kinda more acceptable.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
If you primarily like them because you find their feminine qualities attractive then, no. If you primarily like them because you find their male qualities attractive, yes. And I'm referring to more than just the obvious.
As an aside I really hate that term, but I'm assuming you're refering to porn here where it's kinda more acceptable.
hmm, I enjoy both parts.
Then honestly only you can judge. In my experience most people who like them are straight and for them I'd say it's almost certainly an extension of that. That's not true for everyone though of course, and if you think you're gay, or think some part of you is and that's what enjoys it then it probably is a homosexual experience. The thing is, they are girls regardless and not in some abstract way. Especially in porn or professional models, they will be giving off all the biological markers as "woman". It is of course possible to look past that, to see them as a male and to pick out those features, but even then the difference is whether you're attracted to that and the idea of them as men appearing in that way or to the female shape, body type and general appearance.
I guess in short, my point is that the only person who can say whether it is or not is you. Liking that kinda stuff isn't in itself either gay or straight, and the fact that you can like it in and of itself really doesn't decide anything. That means the only remaining thing that matters in deciding is what you think yourself.
Honestly I've had this discussion a fair few times and I've always found it impossible for anyone but the person themselves to decide. To some extent it really shows the problem of a multiple choice question, that is really more of a scale of choices. It is possible for it to be both.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
I really fundamentally disagree with this argument which boils down to "just be more thickskinned".
I mean really, I've never felt that strongly about it all one way or another. But when I hear that kind of defence it polarises my opinion in the other direction.
Stop dressing skimpily girls, then you won't get raped. Of course, this is action, not words. But if you're being told you're a fuckin' faggot in a public place, how do you know that you can just brush it off and it won't just escalate to violence? You can't know, you're scared, and I'm sure at least some of us have personal connections of verbal homophobic slurring -> something physically dangerous.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
I really fundamentally disagree with this argument which boils down to "just be more thickskinned".
I mean really, I've never felt that strongly about it all one way or another. But when I hear that kind of defence it polarises my opinion in the other direction.
Stop dressing skimpily girls, then you won't get raped. Of course, this is action, not words. But if you're being told you're a fuckin' faggot in a public place, how do you know that you can just brush it off and it won't just escalate to violence? You can't know, you're scared, and I'm sure at least some of us have personal connections of verbal homophobic slurring -> something physically dangerous.
We aren't saying "just have thicker skin." If you know yourself, and love yourself, people can say what they want all day every day and it won't affect you in the slightest. Call me what you want, I know what I am because I take the time to learn and love what I am. So, haters to the left.
However, we can all admit that we aren't 100% every single day. But when we have doubt, our support system makes up the difference and gets us back to where we need to be. This is something EVERYONE should have. Period.
I've been called faggot in public places. I've been called nigger in public places. I remained unfazed. These bullies because entirely powerless in a matter of seconds when they saw I gave them nothing to their incitement. When the matter was over, who looked like the fool? Who had to deal with the severity of their actions?
We can bicker and whine over what words are bad and what words need to be censored but at the end of the day, the words aren't want causes suicide, it is the lack of concern for the individual and the lack of a support system that drives kids to end it.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
I really fundamentally disagree with this argument which boils down to "just be more thickskinned".
I mean really, I've never felt that strongly about it all one way or another. But when I hear that kind of defence it polarises my opinion in the other direction.
Stop dressing skimpily girls, then you won't get raped. Of course, this is action, not words. But if you're being told you're a fuckin' faggot in a public place, how do you know that you can just brush it off and it won't just escalate to violence? You can't know, you're scared, and I'm sure at least some of us have personal connections of verbal homophobic slurring -> something physically dangerous.
We aren't saying "just have thicker skin." If you know yourself, and love yourself, people can say what they want all day every day and it won't affect you in the slightest. Call me what you want, I know what I am because I take the time to learn and love what I am. So, haters to the left.
However, we can all admit that we aren't 100% every single day. But when we have doubt, our support system makes up the difference and gets us back to where we need to be. This is something EVERYONE should have. Period.
I've been called faggot in public places. I've been called nigger in public places. I remained unfazed. These bullies because entirely powerless in a matter of seconds when they saw I gave them nothing to their incitement. When the matter was over, who looked like the fool? Who had to deal with the severity of their actions?
We can bicker and whine over what words are bad and what words need to be censored but at the end of the day, the words aren't want causes suicide, it is the lack of concern for the individual and the lack of a support system that drives kids to end it.
You've failed to address words becoming violence. You are separating the two as if they are mutually exclusive - they are not.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
The easiest way to figure out what you find most attractive is to determine what you fantasize about most when your jerking it (without porn, cause porn fucks things up imo). And also for some sexuality isn't black and white so you don't have to label yourself based on every sexual impulse you have.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
I really fundamentally disagree with this argument which boils down to "just be more thickskinned".
I mean really, I've never felt that strongly about it all one way or another. But when I hear that kind of defence it polarises my opinion in the other direction.
Stop dressing skimpily girls, then you won't get raped. Of course, this is action, not words. But if you're being told you're a fuckin' faggot in a public place, how do you know that you can just brush it off and it won't just escalate to violence? You can't know, you're scared, and I'm sure at least some of us have personal connections of verbal homophobic slurring -> something physically dangerous.
We aren't saying "just have thicker skin." If you know yourself, and love yourself, people can say what they want all day every day and it won't affect you in the slightest. Call me what you want, I know what I am because I take the time to learn and love what I am. So, haters to the left.
However, we can all admit that we aren't 100% every single day. But when we have doubt, our support system makes up the difference and gets us back to where we need to be. This is something EVERYONE should have. Period.
I've been called faggot in public places. I've been called nigger in public places. I remained unfazed. These bullies because entirely powerless in a matter of seconds when they saw I gave them nothing to their incitement. When the matter was over, who looked like the fool? Who had to deal with the severity of their actions?
We can bicker and whine over what words are bad and what words need to be censored but at the end of the day, the words aren't want causes suicide, it is the lack of concern for the individual and the lack of a support system that drives kids to end it.
You've failed to address words becoming violence. You are separating the two as if they are mutually exclusive - they are not.
But they are mutually exclusive. They are two different things. Either one can occur without the other. How can you argue that words=something physically dangerous. You can't be hurt by words. Any physical actions that occur are physical actions that could have occured regardless of what was said.
I've already addressed physical bullying in previous posts. It needs to be checked immediately. If I am watching the halls and some kid gets slammed into the locker, I'm already there. No questions, no hesitations. I can't stop the kid getting called names out of ear shot. I can help that victim child know that he is better than all of the words and keep the kid uplifted. I mean, if I am present when bullying is going down, verbal or physical, actions will be taken.
On March 28 2012 17:39 Sirois wrote: Does it make me gay if I find shemales attractive?
Oh Kyle you know how to change a topic rather quickly! And Iyerbeth I always love seein' your input on these things, even if the person askin' the question is a notorious troll!
On the whole word debate goin' on above, I will throw my two cents into the pool. I agree with both sides more or less, but I'm more with Josketh. Words only hurt people that let them. Klondike, your argument with violence behind the words is a whole different level beyond words. When its JUST words, that's where you need self confidence and friends and support. I'm pretty awful for usin' faggot/nigger when I'm mad (real life and online). And when people try to get under my skin about my bisexuality I just kind of throw it back in their face cause I accept it. I know not everyone can do that, but that's how you should react to words. Do I think we shoulds top usin' faggot in a negative light? Probably would help a lot, but at the same time its not that harmin' on its own. Sure people feel outcasted, ashamed, alone, etc...but all they need to do is open their eyes. I mean look at TeamLiquid, sure the mods do a lot to "protect" us, but not that many people actually come in here and receive the banhammer. The honest truth is, less people care than you think. The minority just yells louder than the majority. Maybe I'm shrouded by experiences in life, but I don't feel its the case. I understand that not everywhere is the same, but I think you'd still be surprised.
Now that my two cents are gone...I think I should play StarCraft 2 today...so much League of Legends and Modern Warfare 3 recently. Need practice games to get back in the swing!
I really fundamentally disagree with this argument which boils down to "just be more thickskinned".
I mean really, I've never felt that strongly about it all one way or another. But when I hear that kind of defence it polarises my opinion in the other direction.
Stop dressing skimpily girls, then you won't get raped. Of course, this is action, not words. But if you're being told you're a fuckin' faggot in a public place, how do you know that you can just brush it off and it won't just escalate to violence? You can't know, you're scared, and I'm sure at least some of us have personal connections of verbal homophobic slurring -> something physically dangerous.
We aren't saying "just have thicker skin." If you know yourself, and love yourself, people can say what they want all day every day and it won't affect you in the slightest. Call me what you want, I know what I am because I take the time to learn and love what I am. So, haters to the left.
However, we can all admit that we aren't 100% every single day. But when we have doubt, our support system makes up the difference and gets us back to where we need to be. This is something EVERYONE should have. Period.
I've been called faggot in public places. I've been called nigger in public places. I remained unfazed. These bullies because entirely powerless in a matter of seconds when they saw I gave them nothing to their incitement. When the matter was over, who looked like the fool? Who had to deal with the severity of their actions?
We can bicker and whine over what words are bad and what words need to be censored but at the end of the day, the words aren't want causes suicide, it is the lack of concern for the individual and the lack of a support system that drives kids to end it.
You've failed to address words becoming violence. You are separating the two as if they are mutually exclusive - they are not.
But they are mutually exclusive. They are two different things. Either one can occur without the other. How can you argue that words=something physically dangerous. You can't be hurt by words. Any physical actions that occur are physical actions that could have occured regardless of what was said.
... They are two different things, but they are not mutally exclusive, i.e. both can happen together, or in the case I'm referring to, words leading to, or as the precursor to, violence.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Inxbs.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/EavHq.jpg)
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