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On November 06 2015 14:10 TheYango wrote:
Bristleback should not be 1-1-1 at 3.
First rank of Goo timing is interesting but it's almost never that early because your mana doesn't support you using both Goo and Quills and Quills are usually better when you can't cast both yet. There's some narrow cases that involve 2v2 lanes where you get early Goo because some hero really likes having a setup slow, but most of the time you're 0-2-1 or 0-1-2 at 3 (0-2-1 should be default).
First rank Goo can be 4, 5, 7, or 8 usually (sometimes it's as late as level 10 but that's rare), depending on the game. For a standard guide, there's a reasonable argument for all of those as options.
I was looking at this exactly, let me fix it later today.
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Why would Slark want S&Y *after* Skadi?
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On November 07 2015 15:31 Buckyman wrote:
Why would Slark want S&Y *after* Skadi?
Nice I was about to ask the same thing.
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I overlooked Skadi being core, ill take a look when I get back to the office
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Sand King skill build is updated as well, feedback appreciated.
Spectre's Skill build updated as well
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On November 08 2015 06:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
Sand King skill build is updated as well, feedback appreciated.
Spectre's Skill build updated as well
Pretty sure Sand King should be QWWQWQQR or QWWQQWQR.
I hate putting a specific order on SK's build after the first three though (and even then you might situationally upgrade Q twice before W's second point) because your ulti timing is usually going to be timed for when you get blink. You can see this in professional games where they get their ulti anywhere from level 6 to level 9.
You also sometimes want a point in E for gosu double-stacking, although that's not useful for Standard Guides.
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On November 08 2015 09:18 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2015 06:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
Sand King skill build is updated as well, feedback appreciated.
Spectre's Skill build updated as well Pretty sure Sand King should be QWWQWQQR or QWWQQWQR. I hate putting a specific order on SK's build after the first three though (and even then you might situationally upgrade Q twice before W's second point) because your ulti timing is usually going to be timed for when you get blink. You can see this in professional games where they get their ulti anywhere from level 6 to level 9. You also sometimes want a point in E for gosu double-stacking, although that's not useful for Standard Guides.
E was removed from the last build.
The build needs to work despite jungling being the ideal way to play Sand King as I cannot indicate to users how to jungle with Sand King via a hero build
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On November 08 2015 09:22 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2015 09:18 Birdie wrote:On November 08 2015 06:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
Sand King skill build is updated as well, feedback appreciated.
Spectre's Skill build updated as well Pretty sure Sand King should be QWWQWQQR or QWWQQWQR. I hate putting a specific order on SK's build after the first three though (and even then you might situationally upgrade Q twice before W's second point) because your ulti timing is usually going to be timed for when you get blink. You can see this in professional games where they get their ulti anywhere from level 6 to level 9. You also sometimes want a point in E for gosu double-stacking, although that's not useful for Standard Guides. E was removed from the last build. The build needs to work despite jungling being the ideal way to play Sand King as I cannot indicate to users how to jungle with Sand King via a hero build
Level 1 Q is fine for not-jungling Sand King at level 3 though, so QWW start is still generally better. Besides, I think most people know that Sand King is usually played in the jungle, and anyone who knows how to play him offlane or in other roles is probably not in need of a Standard Hero Build.
If you are going to go QWQ then you shouldn't bother with level 3 W as early as it is, just go QWQWQWQWR.
Arguably mana boots before blink is better if you aren't jungling very much with SK, by the way.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 08 2015 09:43 Birdie wrote:
If you are going to go QWQ then you shouldn't bother with level 3 W as early as it is, just go QWQWQWQWR.
This. If you're not jungling, then there's no point in maxing Sandstorm. Early Sandstorm is only for jungling.The outdated "pull creeps and play as a lane support" way is max Burrow by 7.
I disagree with ulti at 9 though. It doesn't have to be at 6, but you definitely take it at 8 if you don't take it at 6, because level 8->9 is a big spike in level-up XP, so you basically always want ulti before then.
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On November 08 2015 09:47 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2015 09:43 Birdie wrote:
If you are going to go QWQ then you shouldn't bother with level 3 W as early as it is, just go QWQWQWQWR.
I disagree with ulti at 9 though. It doesn't have to be at 6, but you definitely take it at 8 if you don't take it at 6, because level 8->9 is a big spike in level-up XP, so you basically always want ulti before then.
I agree with you here, I wasn't thinking too hard about the R placement there. For the purposes of the general guide, ulti at 8 is pretty reasonable.
Also, in ideal play (competitive) you don't max caustic finale until level 25, and get a value point at level 10 only. But in pubs I think maxing caustic earlier is fine because there's usually a spare lane to push and you're not necessarily with your team at all times.
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The office is closing momentarily so give me a bit as I don't have internet at home.
 is updated, see patch notes above.
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I disagree with the idea that you can't indicate how to play non-afk SK in a guide.
The general principle is not a rare or difficult one. It's reasonable to expect your players to understand that there is more to supporting than not taking lasthits in lane. If they don't know that, SK is an excellent hero to teach them.
The general principle of ganking, pulling and stacking to reach 3, clearing stacks at 3, continuing to gank/stack/clear until blink is quite possible to communicate in a few lines. The important thing to stress is that he is not a jungler, and that he should be roaming constantly around the stack timings.
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edit: fuck it, we'll just do it
updated
gonna do  then go home.
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updated, I didn't follow the Radiance/Manta/Octarine combo as I felt it wasn't the standard yet (and went for the more early-on fighting style of Maelstrom/AC/Abyssal).
But I can change it if there's enough vocal support of it.
Alchemist Middle is still ganking.
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 Doom (Lane)
Moved Black King Bar to Core Items
Removed Sange and Yasha
Doom (Jungle)
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Sange and Yasha
 Broodmother
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Added Boots of Travel 2 to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Core Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Dagon
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Boots of Travel
 Enchantress
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Moon Shard
Storm Sprit
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
 Warlock (Middle)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
Warlock (Lane)
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
 Phantom Assassin
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Sange and Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Heaven's Halberd
Removed Vladmir's Offering
 Bristleback
New Skill Build: W E W Q W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Quill Spray 2. Bristleback 3. Viscous Nasal Goo)
 Slark (Lane)
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Sand King
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W Q Q R W E R E E E (1. Burrowstrike 2. Sand Storm 3. Caustic Finale)
Added Scythe of Vyse to Extension Items
Moved Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Removed Ethereal Blade
 Spectre
New Skill Build: Q W W E W R W E E E R Q Q Q R (1. Desolate 2. Dispersion 3. Spectral Dagger)
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Vitality Booster
Invoker
New Skill Build: Q R Q W W W W Q W R W Q W E E R R E E E E E Q Q Q (1. Wex 2. Exort 3. Quas)
Created New Tab: "Luxury Items"
Added Healing Salve to Core Items
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items"
Moved Hand of Midas to Situational Items
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Extension Items
Moved Refresher Orb to "Luxury Items"
Moved Scythe of Vyse to "Luxury Items"
Moved Octarine Core to "Luxury Items"
Removed Hand of Midas
Alchemist (Lane)
New Skill Build: E Q Q E Q R Q E E W R W W W R (1. Acid Spray 2. Greevil's Greed 3. Unstable Concoction)
Added Soul Ring to Early Game
Moved Sange and Yasha to Situational Items
Moved Quelling Blade to Starting Items
Moved Heart of Tarrasque to Luxury Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Maelstrom
Removed Mjollnir
Removed Boots of Speed
Removed Butterfly
Alchemist (Middle)
Added Heart of Tarrasque to Luxury Items
To watch for
- re-check
 build
- look into ROA build
- look into
 skill build (1 point at 8 in stats)
# of Hero Texts Updated: 105
+ Show Spoiler +
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On November 08 2015 11:07 Torte de Lini wrote:
edit: fuck it, we'll just do it
updated
That's the spirit.
I think you underestimate your audience. The trickle-down popularity of things like stats-mom-jug and now radi-oct alc show that pleb-tier dota is quite aware of the pro scene, and that even people at newbie MMR will tend to copy what they see.
I think in general you're better off trying to ride that wave while teaching people to do those things better, rather than resisting it by sticking to outdated but apparently newbie-friendly ways to play. People will just go find other, shittier guides if you do that.
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On November 08 2015 12:07 Belisarius wrote:
That's the spirit.
I think you underestimate your audience. The trickle-down popularity of things like stats-mom-jug and now radi-oct alc show that pleb-tier dota is quite aware of the pro scene, and that even people at newbie MMR will tend to copy what they see.
I think in general you're better off trying to ride that wave while teaching people to do those things better, rather than resisting it by sticking to outdated but apparently newbie-friendly ways to play. People will just go find other, shittier guides if you do that.
Yes, that is exactly what happened actually. I underestimated our audience when in the past, I've written to trust them. I think your mention of how newbies tend to copy or be aware of the pro scene is something common throughout all games (I read a similar view in Hearthstone) is something to take into account.
Thanks for that.
rather than resisting it by sticking to outdated but apparently newbie-friendly ways to play. People will just go find other, shittier guides if you do that
This is a policy I started adapting at the start of 2015 or so. The reason I don't always immediately adapt to potentially popular builds is to avoid adding onto the work if it means the build is just a "flavour of the month" sort of thing (Alchemist/Manta-Octarine).
this weekend is an example of the hours just adding up.
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That's fair.
For alc, I agree that radi-oct is not standard. There's a difference between this and jungle SK because jungle SK is usually optimal, while fakenaga-alc is only situationally optimal. It is very popular, though, so it's hard to ignore. If you do it, it should definitely be mid.
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EPT
(Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane)
