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On November 02 2015 07:22 TheYango wrote:
I mean, it's the only real difference between starting with regen and buying Stout at side shop vs. starting Stout and buying regen on courier, because it's just as unlikely for someone to need the courier 6 seconds into the game (actually, you probably get way more level 1 rune fights than you get games where someone needs courier immediately).
I think it's pretty common for the mid to get a salve on courier directly after the bounty rune pickup.
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United States47024 Posts
Treads Ember requires good Treads swap usage and is less forgiving for bad remnant usage.
If you go Phase you pretty much have to go Drums because at baseline Ember's mana demand is higher than his mediocre base stats can sustain and RoA doesn't give enough Intel in its own to make up the difference. Treads Ember essentially gets by through perfect Treads swap and casting *literally everything* off of Int Treads. If you have Phase + RoA your max mana pool just outright isn't large enough to cast everything you want to in a fight.
Though now that Mangos are in the game, you could probably get by going Phase+RoA+holding a Mango for the extra mana buffer.
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You're only ~26 max mana less with AgiTreads/Wand/RoA vs Phase/Drums and have significantly better mana regen, and if you tread switch the mana pool is significantly better.
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United States47024 Posts
IDK why everyone does that comparison without Wand, even if you go Phase+Drum you're still getting Wand. Hell, you'll probably usually get the Wand before you even finish Drums.
Yes it's more expensive, but that doesn't impact the stretch between your early game fighting and BF because you don't have slots to hold BF components. It just makes the BF later. Phase/Drum/Wand/PMS/Bottle and Treads/Aquila/Wand/PMS/Bottle are both 5 slots.
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On November 03 2015 09:23 TheYango wrote:
IDK why everyone does that comparison without Wand, even if you go Phase+Drum you're still getting Wand. Hell, you'll probably usually get the Wand before you even finish Drums.
Yes it's more expensive, but that doesn't impact the stretch between your early game fighting and BF because you don't have slots to hold BF components. It just makes the BF later. Phase/Drum/Wand/PMS/Bottle and Treads/Aquila/Wand/PMS/Bottle are both 5 slots.
If you add in Wand then the gold difference is significant, and with Treads-switching (which even 1k MMR players can learn easily) you only have a movement speed bonus with Phase/Drums over the Aquila build. And having a later BF is a pretty big deal.
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 Doom (Lane)
Moved Black King Bar to Core Items
Removed Sange and Yasha
Doom (Jungle)
Moved Black King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Removed Sange and Yasha
 Broodmother
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Added Boots of Travel 2 to Extension Items
Added Eye of Skadi to Extension Items
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Core Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Moved Desolator to Extension Items
Removed Dagon
Removed Abyssal Blade
Removed Boots of Travel
 Enchantress
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Removed Moon Shard
Storm Sprit
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
 Warlock (Middle)
Added Phase Boots to Core Items
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
Warlock (Lane)
Added Octarine Core to Extension Items
 Phantom Assassin
Added Magic Wand to Core Items
Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items
Added Sange and Yasha to Situational Items
Removed Heaven's Halberd
Removed Vladmir's Offering
To watch for
- Double-check
 skill order
- revisit
 later
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 reverse farming build of Lane to Middle (and Middle's Ganking build to Lane)?
- re-check
 build
- look into ROA build
- look into
 skill build (1 point at 8 in stats)
- more points early in Sandstorm for
# of Hero Texts Updated: 102
+ Show Spoiler +
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I'm applying changes later today
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PA starts with double branch but there is no Magic Wand in the early game items, i dont know if that is intentional.
There should also be mention in the Vlads that if u go for this item u shouldnt have Helm of Dominator too, one lifesteal source should be enough.
Heaven's Halberd seems kinda off but i guess its fine.
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halberd is mega not fine actually
sny is pretty decent tho, although i wouldn't blame u for leaving it out.
i think vlads is literally only when ur going deso too
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Sand King skill build should have Sandstorm over Caustic Finale at 8 for faster jungling. Caustic Finale 1 might be okay at 9, because that's AFTER clearing the blink dagger stacks.
Personally I go further in that direction and build 3-3-0-1 at 7 instead of 4-2-0-1 because I'm clearing a level worth of stacks whenever I get Sandstorm 3, and I'd rather that happen earlier. But I don't think it's wrong for the guide to max Burrow Strike instead - anyone who doesn't know to level Sandstorm earlier also won't make enough stacks.
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On November 04 2015 14:04 Buckyman wrote:
Sand King skill build should have Sandstorm over Caustic Finale at 8 for faster jungling. Caustic Finale 1 might be okay at 9, because that's AFTER clearing the blink dagger stacks.
Personally I go further in that direction and build 3-3-0-1 at 7 instead of 4-2-0-1 because I'm clearing a level worth of stacks whenever I get Sandstorm 3, and I'd rather that happen earlier. But I don't think it's wrong for the guide to max Burrow Strike instead - anyone who doesn't know to level Sandstorm earlier also won't make enough stacks.
Sand King build is geared to not be purely jungling as there's no way to indicate how to jungle in a hero build.
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even if you're not purely jungling the extra cd reduction/damage from extra levels in sandstorm is usually better than a point in caustic finale
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I'll add it under things to-do right now.
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I'm moving into a new apartment and settling in. Don't got internet right now, slowing the time I can spend working on these guides.
I'm severely behind on everything I want to do; a bit overworked.
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Yeah there's not much point in a value point in caustic.
On another note, he really wants QWW most of the time because rank 2 W is when you can start to clear stacks.
You should never be "purely" jungling but he does very little just standing around in lane, which is what most newbie supports will do if they aren't in the jungle. Starting to find levels elsewhere at 3 vs 4 makes an enormous difference.
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Worth noting that a point in caustic at, say, lvl 4 is pretty handy for doing the double stacking tricks you can do with the caustic changes.
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On November 04 2015 03:53 Velzi wrote:
PA starts with double branch but there is no Magic Wand in the early game items, i dont know if that is intentional.
There should also be mention in the Vlads that if u go for this item u shouldnt have Helm of Dominator too, one lifesteal source should be enough.
Heaven's Halberd seems kinda off but i guess its fine.
I will add Magic Wand, but it will be later on in the core items.
On November 04 2015 03:57 Sn0_Man wrote:
halberd is mega not fine actually
sny is pretty decent tho, although i wouldn't blame u for leaving it out.
i think vlads is literally only when ur going deso too
Swapped them out for S&Y and Drums
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United States47024 Posts
Bristleback should not be 1-1-1 at 3.
First rank of Goo timing is interesting but it's almost never that early because your mana doesn't support you using both Goo and Quills and Quills are usually better when you can't cast both yet. There's some narrow cases that involve 2v2 lanes where you get early Goo because some hero really likes having a setup slow, but most of the time you're 0-2-1 or 0-1-2 at 3 (0-2-1 should be default).
First rank Goo can be 4, 5, 7, or 8 usually (sometimes it's as late as level 10 but that's rare), depending on the game. For a standard guide, there's a reasonable argument for all of those as options.
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EPT
(Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/C6tGlDI.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fmuN0wJ.png)
