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In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 232

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TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 18 2015 03:50 GMT
#4621
It's not a "buy-first or buy never" thing. Rather, it's an item you'll buy a decent amount of the time but almost never buy first item because it's awful without already having a lot of stats from other items to make Illusions useful.
Moderator
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-18 04:43:12
October 18 2015 04:37 GMT
#4622
On October 18 2015 12:23 TheYango wrote:
I mean the fundamental problem is that Morph is one of those heroes that doesn't really buy the same items every game, and Manta's probably the closest thing to an item Morph buys reasonably often.

TBH Morph's one of those heroes that I wouldn't want guide-level players to get anywhere near lol.

Amen.

Given that they will get near him regardless, though, I feel the best way to present a hero with a varied build is to simply give a stable progression. It might be optimal in like 1/3 of cases, but that's better than doing something which is optimal in 5% of cases just because it's the common ground between alternatives.

For morph, I think the most stable progression is still RoA->boots->bottle->treads->linkens->eblade. It's slow and it will inevitably lose a game or two because some guy gets stuck on perseverance as his base falls apart, but at the end of the day it does what you pick morphling to do.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-18 04:47:09
October 18 2015 04:45 GMT
#4623
I'm not sold on making E-blade standard mostly because E-blade lost a lot of it's luster now that Glimmer Cape exists. A lot of situations where you used to be able to get safe, easy kills and slowly snowball the game don't result in kills anymore with that item on the table.
Moderator
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-18 04:56:25
October 18 2015 04:50 GMT
#4624
That's fair. I haven't found it to be a crippling problem but it's definitely annoying if the support is on point.

Linkens->yasha->bfly/skadi or something maybe? That seems really awkward.

If you drop Linkens you're probably looking at some kind of yasha/hotd/bkb combo, but I always feel like I should have picked another hero when I play like that. I guess you could straight-up rush skadi instead.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 18 2015 17:40 GMT
#4625
Here is another user's suggestion: https://www.reddit.com/r/learndota2/comments/3p8nl1/morphling_build/

Agi Build
Safe lane
Start with RoP, Circlets, and a Tango
Build Aquila and Wand
Buy Treads
For skills max Morph and Waveform
Mid game get Yasha, then Skadi
Finish Manta
End game with Eaglesong upgrade of choice, either Eblade for shotgunning supports or Butterfly for more solid carrying
Linkens and BKB are situational
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-20 02:54:52
October 18 2015 17:50 GMT
#4626
ed
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
October 18 2015 18:19 GMT
#4627
Anyone that suggests not starting with a full set of regen (Tango + Salve) and suggests 2 recipe items (requiring courier) before boots upgrade should be viewed with the appropriate amount of skepticism.
Moderator
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-18 18:41:34
October 18 2015 18:41 GMT
#4628
Sorry, I am more referring to the Core items: Yasha into Skadi -> Manta
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-18 18:56:05
October 18 2015 18:51 GMT
#4629
It's probably ok, though I don't see why you'd want the casual Yasha first. Morph is pretty mana-gated at low levels,and since Str+Agi are interchangeable on him, 10 all stats is better than 16 Agi + MS/AS. You may as well just get Ultimate Orbs and finish Skadi sooner because for the same price, Yasha doesn't get better value than Ultimate Orbs on Morph, unlike for other heroes.

This isn't necessarily true later since once you have Linken or Skadi you've "outgrown" your mana demands a bit. But early game I'd rather have Treads+Aquila+Ult orb than Treads+Aquila+Yasha, while later I'd rather have Treads+Skadi/Linken+Yasha than Treads+Skadi/Linken+Ult orb.
Moderator
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
October 18 2015 20:12 GMT
#4630
Morphling is so awfully slow that getting yasha just to move faster isnt bad idea. Even with treads+yasha u are still slower than some heroes with just brown boots.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Belisarius
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia6233 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-19 04:07:46
October 18 2015 21:55 GMT
#4631
I'd be happy with yasha into skadi or straight skadi.

Something like
Early: WB Boots RoA (Bottle)
Core: Treads (Yasha) Skadi
Situational: Linkens, BKB
Extension: Bfly, MKB, Eblade
Luxury: Satanic, Manta, BoTs

The distinction between extension and Luxury is pretty abritrary on morph, so I don't know if you even want it. Luxury is just going to be the things you get a little later on average.

I don't see much point in aghs on rightclick morph. Technically, yes, it's situational, but those situations are going to be way too nuanced for your audience to correctly identify so they'd mostly just screw up their progression.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-19 03:38:12
October 19 2015 03:37 GMT
#4632
Agh's is crazy situational based entirely on whether there are actually heroes on your team worth cloning. It makes no sense anywhere else, because it's perfectly reasonable to have a team where there are zero heroes worth using Hybrid on.
Moderator
Buckyman
Profile Joined May 2014
1364 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-19 04:46:16
October 19 2015 04:39 GMT
#4633
What sorts of heroes are worth cloning? Right clickers? Supports for extra disables? Techies?

On October 19 2015 06:55 Belisarius wrote:
Extension: Bfly, MKB, Eblade

If Eblade is an extension item, it should be the first extension item. There's little point in getting it as the sixth slot.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-19 07:03:58
October 19 2015 07:03 GMT
#4634
I'm keeping tabs on suggestions, but currently powering through hero build text updates (65 completed, 90 left).

I can do them throughout the weekday if I meet the daily quota of daily hero text update.

Also working on Dota 2 100 million Hero Builds article.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Howie_Dewitt
Profile Joined March 2014
United States1416 Posts
October 19 2015 11:59 GMT
#4635
On October 19 2015 13:39 Buckyman wrote:
What sorts of heroes are worth cloning? Right clickers? Supports for extra disables? Techies?

Undying&thugna

Also torte you finally convinced my friends to carry tp scrolls its already won us 2 games in hsl <3
Sisyphus had a good gig going, the disappointment was predictable. | Visions of the Country (1978) is for when you're lost.
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
October 19 2015 15:37 GMT
#4636
On October 19 2015 20:59 Howie_Dewitt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2015 13:39 Buckyman wrote:
What sorts of heroes are worth cloning? Right clickers? Supports for extra disables? Techies?

Undying&thugna

Also torte you finally convinced my friends to carry tp scrolls its already won us 2 games in hsl <3


I think carrying TP and Magic Wand were the things that changed my game the most without myself noticing.

I've started adding TP to key heroes where they have some sort of trick to ensure it (Lifestealer Rage, Kunkka X Marks the Spot, etc.)

Glad to hear,
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Sn0_Man
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Tebellong44238 Posts
October 19 2015 17:20 GMT
#4637
hows aghs on morf situational that definitely blows
LiquidDota StaffSCIENTISTS BAFFLED | 3275929302
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-22 07:27:50
October 20 2015 02:54 GMT
#4638
Spirit Breaker
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Town Portal Scroll to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Removed Boots of Speed

Pudge
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items

Lifestealer (Lane)
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Town Portal Scroll to "Utility Items"

Tidehunter
Added Guardian Greaves to Situational Items
Removed Mekansm

Warlock (Middle)
Warlock (Lane)
Removed Pipe of Insight

Bloodseeker (Middle)
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Removed Boots of Speed

Bloodseeker (Jungle)
Moved Hand of Midas to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed

Bloodseeker (Lane)
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Magic Wand to Early Game
Removed Boots of Speed

Morphling
Created New Tab; "Luxury Items"
Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items"
Moved Eye of Skadi to Core Items
Moved Manta Style to "Luxury Items"
Moved Satanic to "Luxury Items"
Removed Aghanim's Scepter

Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Ancient Apparition (Middle)
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard

Elder Titan (Lane)
Elder Titan (Middle)
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Removed Ghost Scepter



To watch for
  • itemization needs to be redone, wait for patch to play out
  • Double-check skill order
  • redo Lane/Middle build for Kunkka again
  • Holding off Enchanted Mango inclusion until more development
  • revisit later
  • double-check build (Aghs extension, S&Y, dual build?)
  • double-check item build
  • double-check item build
  • reverse farming build of Lane to Middle (and Middle's Ganking build to Lane)?
  • double-check item and skill build (max Q/E?)
  • double-check starting items
  • double-check item builds
  • rework skill build (Lane -> E, W, W. Middle -> QWQWQ)


# of Hero Texts Updated: 78
+ Show Spoiler +
(Lane/Middle)
(Lane/Middle)

(Jungle/Lane)


(Middle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane/Jungle)
(Middle/Lane)







(Jungle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)


(Lane/Middle)







(Lane/Middle)
(Jungle/Lane)




(Middle/Lane)



(Middle/Lane)













(Middle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)

(Jungle/Lane)

(Middle/Lane)
(Lane/Middle)
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Velzi
Profile Joined June 2012
Finland659 Posts
October 20 2015 07:49 GMT
#4639
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.

for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).

rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you to their level and then beat you with experience. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/115305822 https://yasp.co/players/115305822
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-10-20 16:25:21
October 20 2015 16:25 GMT
#4640
On October 20 2015 16:49 Velzi wrote:
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.

for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).

rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced.


I think all Jakiro really needs is Glimmer Cape.
Dual Breath is level 4, which we can push for earlier (level 2 instead of Ice Path) if it is more ideal.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
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