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On October 21 2015 01:25 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 16:49 Velzi wrote:
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.
for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).
rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced. I think all Jakiro really needs is Glimmer Cape. Dual Breath is level 4, which we can push for earlier (level 2 instead of Ice Path) if it is more ideal.
yeah forgot about glimmer cape, thats good to add there.
Still i think lvl 1 dual breath is stronger than lvl 1 liquid fire, makes securing runes way easier and harassing offlaner overall more effective
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Why does Medusa start with double Tangos?
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On October 22 2015 02:45 Buckyman wrote:
Why does Medusa start with double Tangos?
http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-100-million-subscriptions?page=217#4321
Latest changes. Nothing about Starting Items
It's old starting items, but I would assume it is for jungling and to not delay last-hitting when in-lane.
On October 21 2015 02:06 Velzi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 20 2015 16:49 Velzi wrote:
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.
for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).
rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced. I think all Jakiro really needs is Glimmer Cape. Dual Breath is level 4, which we can push for earlier (level 2 instead of Ice Path) if it is more ideal. yeah forgot about glimmer cape, thats good to add there. Still i think lvl 1 dual breath is stronger than lvl 1 liquid fire, makes securing runes way easier and harassing offlaner overall more effective
I'll add Glimmer Cape
Isn't the range for Dual Breath too dangerous?
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On October 22 2015 03:37 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 02:45 Buckyman wrote:
Why does Medusa start with double Tangos? http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-100-million-subscriptions?page=217#4321Latest changes. Nothing about Starting Items It's old starting items, but I would assume it is for jungling and to not delay last-hitting when in-lane. Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 02:06 Velzi wrote:On October 21 2015 01:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 20 2015 16:49 Velzi wrote:
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.
for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).
rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced. I think all Jakiro really needs is Glimmer Cape. Dual Breath is level 4, which we can push for earlier (level 2 instead of Ice Path) if it is more ideal. yeah forgot about glimmer cape, thats good to add there. Still i think lvl 1 dual breath is stronger than lvl 1 liquid fire, makes securing runes way easier and harassing offlaner overall more effective I'll add Glimmer Cape Isn't the range for Dual Breath too dangerous?
Well it can hit up to 1000 units away, dont know exactly what u mean.
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On October 22 2015 03:51 Velzi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 03:37 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 22 2015 02:45 Buckyman wrote:
Why does Medusa start with double Tangos? http://www.liquiddota.com/forum/the-tavern/453377-in-game-standard-hero-builds-100-million-subscriptions?page=217#4321Latest changes. Nothing about Starting Items It's old starting items, but I would assume it is for jungling and to not delay last-hitting when in-lane. On October 21 2015 02:06 Velzi wrote:On October 21 2015 01:25 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 20 2015 16:49 Velzi wrote:
For Jakiro i think starting with q and then maxing e is the best build atm. so either qeewerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ or qweeerewwwrqqq+r++++++++++ seems the optimal way.
for starting items i would get one clarity over one branch because as jakiro u dont need early stats as much (u are already tanky and u have mana pool to work with).
rest of the items seem okey except there could be linkens/lotus in situational, u are after all support who is focused on dealing damage and stunning, but it doesnt mean u cant get something to protect ur carry for getting permastunned/silenced. I think all Jakiro really needs is Glimmer Cape. Dual Breath is level 4, which we can push for earlier (level 2 instead of Ice Path) if it is more ideal. yeah forgot about glimmer cape, thats good to add there. Still i think lvl 1 dual breath is stronger than lvl 1 liquid fire, makes securing runes way easier and harassing offlaner overall more effective I'll add Glimmer Cape Isn't the range for Dual Breath too dangerous? Well it can hit up to 1000 units away, dont know exactly what u mean.
The cast range is 550, so wouldn't Jakiro have to seriously stick his neck out for a slow when either contesting rune or to initiate in lane as compared to Ice Path (Liquid Fire at lvl1, Ice Path gotten at lvl 2) of 1200 range and a disabled (and not just a slow)
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I ask because Medusa is a prime candidate for the 2nd tangos -> mango substitution.
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On October 22 2015 05:50 Buckyman wrote:
I ask because Medusa is a prime candidate for the 2nd tangos -> mango substitution.
Previously Medusa had Mango in Situational Items
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United States47024 Posts
On October 22 2015 05:50 Buckyman wrote:
I ask because Medusa is a prime candidate for the 2nd tangos -> mango substitution.
It should be a Salve regardless.
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Spirit Breaker
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Town Portal Scroll to "Utility Items"
Added Smoke of Deceit to "Utility Items"
Removed Boots of Speed
 Pudge
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Added Pipe of Insight to Extension Items
 Lifestealer (Lane)
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Created New Tab: "Utility Items"
Added Town Portal Scroll to "Utility Items"
 Tidehunter
Added Guardian Greaves to Situational Items
Removed Mekansm
 Warlock (Middle)
Warlock (Lane)
Removed Pipe of Insight
 Bloodseeker (Middle)
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Removed Boots of Speed
Bloodseeker (Jungle)
Moved Hand of Midas to Core Items
Removed Boots of Speed
Bloodseeker (Lane)
Moved Power Treads to Early Game
Moved Magic Wand to Early Game
Removed Boots of Speed
 Morphling
Created New Tab; "Luxury Items"
Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to "Luxury Items"
Moved Eye of Skadi to Core Items
Moved Manta Style to "Luxury Items"
Moved Satanic to "Luxury Items"
Removed Aghanim's Scepter
Ancient Apparition (Lane)
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
Ancient Apparition (Middle)
New Skill Build: Q W Q Stats Q R W W W Q R E E E R (1. Cold Feet 2. Ice Vortex 3. Chilling Touch)
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items
Added Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Removed Shiva's Guard
Elder Titan (Lane)
Elder Titan (Middle)
Added Vladmir's Offering to Situational Items
Removed Ghost Scepter
 Razor
Added Wraith Band to Early Game
Added Boots of Speed to Early Game
Added Boots of Travel - Level 2 to Extension Items
Moved Power Treads to Core Items
Moved Magic Wand to Core Items
To watch for
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 itemization needs to be redone, wait for patch to play out
- Double-check
 skill order
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 redo Lane/Middle build for Kunkka again
- Holding off Enchanted Mango inclusion until more development
- revisit
 later
- double-check
 build (Aghs extension, S&Y, dual build?)
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 double-check item build
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 double-check item build
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 reverse farming build of Lane to Middle (and Middle's Ganking build to Lane)?
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 double-check item and skill build (max Q/E?)
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 double-check starting items
- double-check item builds
- rework skill build (Lane -> E, W, W. Middle -> QWQWQ)
- adjust item builds
- Reconsider Mekansm on
- Improve
 Situational Items (Vladmir's ++)
# of Hero Texts Updated: 82
+ Show Spoiler +
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Will probably get the majority of text changes done by the 31st (gotta do 8 a day tor reach 145)
Article will be done by then as well (stats are done, now its just graphs and personal notework/policies, etc.)
Won't probably get to update many more future hero builds until November unless they are fast/easy/obvious fixes.
and  may hit 1 million by Oct. 31st
Stats will be on the 29th.
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On October 23 2015 18:22 Acti wrote:
Keep up the good work.
Thank you
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United States47024 Posts
Idk how AA's skill orders ended up the way they did.
Nobody plays mid AA, but his skill order has always been QWQ-Stats-Q, because without other heroes in the lane, W is not efficient to level and E is not efficient to cast. For W, the magic amp is a big component of it's value, but you don't have enough magic damage on your own for it to be worth leveling, so you just take the value point until the game moves to teamfights where other heroes come into play. E is powerful but has prohibitively high cooldown so without a 2nd or 3rd hero in the lane to help force burst damage and with the demand for lasthitting as a solo laner, it often doesn't do anything (the enemy sees you cast it, and you get maybe 1 auto on them, then they back up and force you to use charges on lasthits--using a 110 mana, 50s CD skill to get 50 damage and 2 lasthits isn't exactly value).
Support AA's skill order is super flexible and almost any combination of skill points at level 5 is valid (including some that take stats) depending on what heroes you're laning with.
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On October 24 2015 01:40 TheYango wrote:
Idk how AA's skill orders ended up the way they did.
Nobody plays mid AA, but his skill order has always been QWQ-Stats-Q, because without other heroes in the lane, W is not efficient to level and E is not efficient to cast. For W, the magic amp is a big component of it's value, but you don't have enough magic damage on your own for it to be worth leveling, so you just take the value point until the game moves to teamfights where other heroes come into play. E is powerful but has prohibitively high cooldown so without a 2nd or 3rd hero in the lane to help force burst damage and with the demand for lasthitting as a solo laner, it often doesn't do anything (the enemy sees you cast it, and you get maybe 1 auto on them, then they back up and force you to use charges on lasthits--using a 110 mana, 50s CD skill to get 50 damage and 2 lasthits isn't exactly value).
Support AA's skill order is super flexible and almost any combination of skill points at level 5 is valid (including some that take stats) depending on what heroes you're laning with.
400,000 people play AA Middle (thankfully AA Lane is 700k), nothing I can do about that but continue supporting it.
I can change the build order, thanks
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Less people play AA mid than Luna, Slark or Spirit Breaker.
http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/lanes
You can say you dont want to lose those numbers by removing the guide, but you cant really argue a lot of people do it.
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On October 24 2015 04:03 SKC wrote:Less people play AA mid than Luna, Slark or Spirit Breaker. http://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/lanesYou can say you dont want to lose those numbers by removing the guide, but you cant really argue a lot of people do it.
You're confusing population groups.
1. General Playing Userbase
2. Guide Subscribers
3. Users Subscribed to an Ancient Apparition (click)
I'm sure not many people play AA.
But when they do play Ancient Apparition; a total of: nearly 2 million users rely on a guide (1,909,716)
AA Lane: 737,072 (36%)
Smoker's Guide: 370,101 (18.5%)
AA Middle: 414,562 (20.7%)
Support Disabler Build: 386,481 (19.3%)
Other Mid/Lane guides: ~1,500 (0.075%)
remember that a user can only subscribe to one guide per hero
That is still a solid portion of the AA subscribing population group who refer to the Middle Guide despite the Lane one being more highly rated and has a stronger user group actively subscribed (you cannot subscribe and play the hero without the guide being actively displayed in-game).
I have no doubt that the rate that AA being played is incredibly [AA guides were created in February of 2013 - a very long time ago], thus why it receives significantly less attention and update than others
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Subbing to a guide also isnt equal to playing the hero in that position. Or even playing the game at all. Specially for a hero where the build can be basically the same.
Using guide numbers to say that 20-30% of players that have subbed to a guide are playing the hero in the middle lane is far more absurd than extrapolating the popularity from the whole pool.
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On October 24 2015 04:20 SKC wrote:
Subbing to a guide also isnt equal to playing the hero in that position. Or even playing the game at all.
Using guide numbers to say that 20-30% of players that have subbed to a guide are playing the hero in the middle lane is far more absurd than extrapolating the popularity from the whole pool.
By removing the hero build, the number of users subscribed is lost; not defaulted to another hero build (my own or another).
20 to 30% of players subscribed to that guide are still actively using it when selecting that hero in a game. Whether improperly or not, it is still being used and will still be supported regardless if they use it to go side-lane or middle.
The conclusion and decision to keep it remains the same. The guide was made in 2013 and AA's usage has gone down since.
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That's what I said. You can keep the guide if you want the numbers, but that doesnt change that very few people do it. Yango also didnt say anything about removing, just that noone plays it anymore.
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Here is AA (Middle)'s growth since the beginning of 2015:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hfyzMsU.png)
The growth is marginal, maybe 100,000 new subscribers by the end of 2015.
This is desperate alternative hero builds offered in-game [side-by-side] with higher ratings and even the Lane version advertised in the recommended items tab.
For comparison, here's AA (Lane):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/aqYyuLm.png)
Which has grown 400,000 since Jan. 2015.
On October 24 2015 04:28 SKC wrote:
That's what I said. You can keep the guide if you want the numbers, but that doesnt change that very few people do it. Yango also didnt say anything about removing, just that noone plays it anymore.
It's more about covering all my bases as growing new hero builds in this system is incredibly difficult (and near impossible).
The subject of removing has come up before, but yes; no one plays AA Middle any more, I agree.
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EPT
(Jungle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane)
(Middle/Lane)
(Jungle/Lane)
