EPThttp://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128855291
link for the lazy
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 210
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128855291 link for the lazy | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 28 2015 06:40 Nevuk wrote: I think puck's guide is a little dated item wise, not sure what the right build for him is though. Can definitely say the starting items should probably include some stats items rather than just pure regen http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128855291 link for the lazy Skill Build is outdated. Aghs to Extension, Euls to Core and Lotus with Situational. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Nothing other than Treads Blink should be core. Everything after that is situational. What's wrong with the skill order? Puck's skill order is generally game-dependent, but I'm not sure I want to see a player that's new to the hero playing anything other than Orb>Rift>Phase. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
I'd suggest that the tooltip on euls should probably explain how using it as a phase shift and way to remove silences on urself makes it the most powerful defensive item possible on puck since that's the primary utility. I'd suggest that ghost sceptre is a terrible "situational" item since puck already has billions of ways to not get hit by right clicks. alright yango scooped me. his starting items probably make more sense if ur no getting pooled anyway | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 28 2015 23:38 Sn0_Man wrote: I'd suggest that ur gonna start null+tangoes on puck most games I'd never suggest Null+Tangos to a player who's too new to the hero to know when not to start Null+Tangos or plays at an MMR where they won't consistently get pooled extra tangos in hard matchups. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If you're getting 2 Arc before 6, you're already accepting that you'll sacrifice killing power for farming/harassment ability. In which case you should have Static at 2, because it's free extra harassment damage. You can put off Bolt rank 4 till 8 for the same reason you can put off Scream rank 4 on QoP--the XP between 5->6, 6->7, and 7->8 is the exact same at each level so putting off maxing a skill till 8 for stronger laning doesn't significantly delay said skill (while 8->9 has a huge hike in XP required). If you're getting max Lightning Bolt, you should still also have Static because it enhances your low level killing power more than the 2nd rank of Arc. The reason to max Lightning Bolt is to maximize your burst damage and killing power, so you don't want to make a skill decision that goes against that because it defeats the purpose of maxing Bolt at 5 and 7. Basically decide between having 1-4-1-1 at 7 or 2-3-1-1. 2-4-0-1 is just worse for harassment than 2-3-1-1 and worse at killing heroes than 1-4-1-1. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 30 2015 02:49 TheYango wrote: Your Zeus skill order doesn't really make any sense. If you're getting 2 Arc before 6, you're already accepting that you'll sacrifice killing power for farming/harassment ability. In which case you should have Static at 2, because it's free extra harassment damage. You can put off Bolt rank 4 till 8 for the same reason you can put off Scream rank 4 on QoP--the XP between 5->6, 6->7, and 7->8 is the exact same at each level so putting off maxing a skill till 8 for stronger laning doesn't significantly delay said skill (while 8->9 has a huge hike in XP required). If you're getting max Lightning Bolt, you should still also have Static because it enhances your low level killing power more than the 2nd rank of Arc. The reason to max Lightning Bolt is to maximize your burst damage and killing power, so you don't want to make a skill decision that goes against that because it defeats the purpose of maxing Bolt at 5 and 7. Basically decide between having 1-4-1-1 at 7 or 2-3-1-1. 2-4-0-1 is just worse for harassment than 2-3-1-1 and worse at killing heroes than 1-4-1-1. On August 23 2015 06:57 TheYango wrote: 4-4-1 Zeus goes hand-in-hand with Bloodstone. You can't support 4-4-1 without the aggressive mana regen from Bloodstone (15 more mana cost on a spell with 1.75s CD adds up really fast), and Bloodstone isn't worth it as 1st item unless you're abusing rank 4 Arc Lightning to farm. 1-4-4/2-4-3 (the 2nd rank of Arc is gotten in that case just for laning) does more damage to heroes (especially since Static Field is "free" damage that doesn't make your spells more expensive) and has easier mana management, but rank 1 Arc farms super slow, and with the game as it is right now, an underfarmed Zeus is a huge liability because with Glimmer Cape in the game, you get useless fast if your items can't keep up. Which one would you advocate per se? I assume we want the second point in Arc for farming, thus maxing W subsequently. This is what I see: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1685000902 -- 2-4-0-1 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1684571786 -- 2-3-1-1 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1692027822 -- 1-4-1-1 In public matches, I see a lot more 2-4-0-1 http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1709420828 | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
both 2-3-1-1 and 1-4-1-1 can be 4-4-1 at 11. And you cherry-picked a TI game from one of the weaker Zeus players at the tournament when basically every other Zeus player at TI was 2-3-1 or 1-4-1 at 7, lol. On August 30 2015 02:55 Torte de Lini wrote: In public matches, I see a lot more 2-4-0-1 Both players you picked out for 2-4-0-1 are MVP players. Korea still does weird things that don't make sense a lot of the time. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 30 2015 03:00 TheYango wrote: What I said doesn't contradict what I said before. both 2-3-1-1 and 1-4-1-1 can be 4-4-1 at 11. And you cherry-picked a TI game from one of the weaker Zeus players at the tournament when basically every other Zeus player at TI was 2-3-1 or 1-4-1 at 7, lol. Not an accusation but in need of clarification. I'm having trouble deciphering all four (two) suggestions. I can dig further into Public and Competitive matches for a full spread of the three builds and their percentage take from The International and within this month of public play; but I'm looking for clarification, not to argue or dispel perception (both on the callout of 'cherry-picking' or my current published build order [which was remade based on feedback]). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
If you're going 4-4-1 Zeus, there's lots of ways you can get to be 4-4-1 at 11. 2-3-1 and 1-4-1 at 7 are the most reasonable, and which one you pick depends on the game. 2-4-0 is just worse than both 2-3-1 and 1-4-1 at the things each of those are good at (weaker harassment than 2-3-1, weaker killing power than 1-4-1). | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 30 2015 03:04 TheYango wrote: I don't see what's weird about it. I said that if you're going to put Bloodstone first, you should be 4-4-1 at 11. If you're going to use traditional item choices like Blink Force first, then 1-4-4 is arguably better because with no mana regen items you can't sustain rank 4 Arc spam to farm, so it defeats the point of having rank 4 Arc. If you're going 4-4-1 Zeus, there's lots of ways you can get to be 4-4-1 at 11. 2-3-1 and 1-4-1 at 7 are the most reasonable, and which one you pick depends on the game. 2-4-0 is just worse than both 2-3-1 and 1-4-1 at the things each of those are good at (weaker harassment than 2-3-1, weaker killing power than 1-4-1). I'm just unfamiliar with how the hero is played via going Bloodstone, so I'm sorry if it takes a bit longer for me to decipher the info. We're sticking with Bloodstone for this patch. We'll stick with 2-3-1 as we're gearing towards safely farming for Bloodstone and based on suggestions from before to get a second point in Arc Lightning. thanks for the advice. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On August 30 2015 03:13 TheYango wrote: Realistically, the Zeus starting items also need to change, but the split between tangos, clarities, and branches is somewhat flexible, so I'm not sure what the best "generic" option is. Based on personal experience, the current items are okay; could use a Healing Salve if we really distrust the user in using this guide. Could slot a Sobi Mask in there and then put a Soul Ring after Boots of Speed (and before Arcane Boots). | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
On August 30 2015 03:13 TheYango wrote: Realistically, the Zeus starting items also need to change, but the split between tangos, clarities, and branches is somewhat flexible, so I'm not sure what the best "generic" option is. Im not entirely sure if Zeus needs branches at the start, u dont really need autoattack damage to make last hits easier since u last hit with q anyways, and clarities are way better to sustain ur spam than few stat points. + U dont have skill comboes that require mana pool to be able to cast all of ur skills once (like ck, tiny, wk double stun etc.) so more int doesnt really come too useful. Vs some heroes u want stick/wand in lane but u dont have to start with branches. 38hp is not really a big thing either tbh. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On August 30 2015 03:28 Velzi wrote: Vs some heroes u want stick/wand in lane but u dont have to start with branches. 38hp is not really a big thing either tbh. 38 HP is a big deal vs. heroes that have level 1/2 kill potential. Also, the fact that you CAN lasthit with Arc doesn't mean it isn't wasteful to use it for lasthits that you can get without it. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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