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On August 24 2015 10:09 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 08:59 BluemoonSC wrote:
Ive seen a lot of soul ring medallion deso solar crest recently.
Medallion deso at the bare minimum is probably perfect for a guide. Medallion actually stacks with Solar Crest, so whether you finish Solar depends on whether someone else is going to get Medallion/Solar. If no one else is getting Solar, you definitely want it, but if someone else is, you actually want to keep Medallion so you can stack both debuffs.
wait what
this is intentional I guess?
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 Silencer (Lane)
Moved Rod of Atos to Core Items
Moved Mekansm to Situational Items
for some reason, this didn't apply to the guide
Silencer (Middle)
Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items
Moved Force Staff to Extension Items
Moved Rod of Atos to Extension Items
Nyx Assassin (Middle)
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Moved Necromonicon to Extension Items
Moved Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Removed Ghost Scepter
Nyx Assassin (Lane)
New Skill Build: Q E Q W Q R Q E E E R W W W R (1. Impale 2. Spiked Carapace 3. Mana Burn)
Added Stout Shield to Starting Items
Moved Force Staff to Core Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Moved Lotus Orb to Situational Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Moved Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items
Removed Iron Branch x2
 Lifestealer (Lane)
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Core Items
Removed Magic Wand
Removed Daedalus
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Lifestealer (Jungle)
Added Desolator to Extension Items
Moved Sange and Yasha to Core Items
Removed Daedalus
Removed Heart of Tarrasque
Vengeful Spirit
Moved Glimmer Cape to Extension Items
Moved Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items
Moved Urn of Shadows to Situational Items
Removed Desolator
Removed Enchanted Mango
 Zeus
New Skill Build: Q W W Q W R W Q Q E R E E E (1. Lightning Bolt 2. Arc Lightning 3. Static Field)
Added Glimmer Cape to Situational Items
Added Boots of Travel to Extension Items
Moved Bloodstone to Core Items
Moved Force Staff to Situational Items
 Clinkz
New Skill Build: W E W Q W R W E E E R Q Q Q (1. Strafe 2. Searing Arrows 3. Skeleton Walk)
Added Ring of Basilius to Early Game
Added Soul Ring to Early Game
Added Medallion of Courage to Core Items
Added Monkey King Bar to Extension Items
Moved Desolator to Core Items
Moved Orchid of Malevolence to Situational Items
Moved Solar Crest to Extension Items
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Clinkz updated.
Unsure about the skill build; can either give Strafe a point in 9/10 or how it is now.
Zeus Skill build fixed.
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SoCal8910 Posts
the skill build is fine. when you hit lvl 6 you'll have 3 points into searing arrows, which if you're standing on top of an unsuspecting support, should be more than enough to kill them with a good creep + strafe.
my preferred skill build for zeus is to get a 2nd point in arc lightning before a 2nd point in lightning bolt (q-w-q-w-w-r-w-e, max q, then e, pts into ult as they come) for easier last hitting since there are a lot of mid heroes in the meta that can abuse your 350 right click range. its a more cost effective spell at lvl 3 than lightning bolt if you're looking to harass too.
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Also can we talk about Gryo's build and that single point in missile? I'm not gryo expert, but is it really useful? Most of that hero seems to be about shooting rockets at people and spam auto attacks into everyone.
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United States47024 Posts
It's situational. Missile can sometimes get a kill, and basically the benefits of skipping it don't outweigh the value of a kill if it gets one.
You judge it based on the game.
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I guess the potential of 125 magic damage and a 2 second stun is pretty good in the laning phase.
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SoCal8910 Posts
its also useful for hunting down elusive heroes. the single point really isn't terrible, sure its not a point into barrage or flak cannon, but there's nothing wrong with a 2sec stun if one of the supports is able to gank your lane.
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United States47024 Posts
It does slow down your farm a bit to have it and isn't all that useful later. But again, the difference is minor enough to be less impactful on the game than a kill if it gets you one.
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Honestly i'd skip it even though rocketless builds are really designed for a specific meta of off-map farming (hello fear the ancients slayer) abusing the power of gyro smoke ganks by forcing the enemy to choose between getting outfarmed or being vulnerable to gyro smoke rotations (as weird as it sounds, gyro +1 kills basically anybody properly executed, see: CDEC's playstyle). Thing is, rocket is the opposite of a value point imo. The skill sucks without like at least 3 points but at that point you sacrifice a ton of farm speed for questionable kill potential.
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Gyro build is a middle-ground. We can change the Middle version of the build as it is quite old. However, it's not really played at all in this meta.
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Homing Missile 1 has its uses in certain hero matchups; in particular, it lets you 1v1 Enigma/Pudge at 6-8 without worrying too much about their respective ults.
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In the Centaur guide, I feel like the third point of Double Edge should be switched with the third point of Hoof Stomp. Level 3 double edge feels like too much of a level 5 Centaur's health pool to use frequently in lane as per the guide's advice. But Centaur has about 150 more health by 7, and thus can afford the higher self damage. And the builds converge by level 8, which is also about when blink dagger happens if I'm able to last hit well in lane.
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idk I think max dedge is fine. It depends on the lane but usually you have tranquils by that point so it's simple attrition; you nuke the guy then regen up, and repeat until they're forced out. Unless the dedge damage puts you so low that they can kill you if you use it, you want to be trading HP as aggressively as possible.
Stomp is kind of irrelevant because the manacost is way too high to use unless you're committing, and if you're committing 1-3-1 gets more done than 2-2-1 in most cases.
EDIT: wait the guide doesn't even get return till 10? idk about that one....
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its hard to say from guide if it is focused for solo offlaning or dual laning purposes, i think in 2v2 lane its totally fine to skip e for maximum burst potential. solo offlaner should get 1 in e tho to make supports harassing less optimal
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SoCal8910 Posts
yeah thats one of the things i wish torte would update when he gets the chance. the designation between "offlane" and "dual lane farm" along with other "core" vs support" would be nice
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I want to double edge them for a bunch of damage to take advantage of Tranquil Boots regen. I also want to get last-hits in lane. And obviously I want to avoid being at low enough health that they can counter-burst me before Tranquils kick in.
Option 1) Skip last hitting some waves for full Tranquil regen. Farm and burst harass during the other waves. Maximizes harass at the expense of farm.
Option 2) Push the lane into their tower while last hitting. Tranquils kick in for a few seconds between waves. Maximizes farm at the expense of harass.
Option 3) Abuse boot drops. Best of both worlds, but too risky for me to be comfortable attempting in lane.
Option 4) Try to last hit with Double Edge without breaking my boots' regen. Compromise between harass and farm.
The third point in double edge is good for 1, neutral for 2 (the limiting factor is HP rather than cooldowns) and very bad for 4 (costing roughly a last hit per creep wave)
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It's pretty rare that you can dedge a wave regularly enough to cs without also getting your tranqs cancelled by their heroes.
If you do happen to be in a situation like that the correct play is probably to hold the skillpoint rather than putting it in stomp, anyway.
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United States47024 Posts
Most of the time, if the lane's in a spot where you can safely run up to it and Double Edge without getting killed, you actually want the lane to stay there, not for it to push.
Like, most of the situations where I can see that being safe to do are also situations where I can either lasthit normally or aggro creeps to me to lasthit and take less damage than I would do to myself using Double Edge.
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Slow week, been a bit busy with some things and relocating. Haven't played since Sunday unfortunately.
I sent some of you PMs; if you're disinterested in the subject matter, reply with that so I can cross you off.
Will be free starting end of Saturday (with stats on Sunday).
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EPT
