EPTqb virtually never delays anything it's 32% MORE dps for farming for 225g but you get 112 back.
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 147
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
qb virtually never delays anything it's 32% MORE dps for farming for 225g but you get 112 back. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
its not about before or after an item its about when u stop solely lasthitting lane creeps and start pushing out the wave to clear a few jungle camps between waves as a way of increasing ur farm. Which is actually something that people up to 4K seem to not grasp so *shrug*. Especially if you hit the jungle hardcore though, QB is a MUST no matter when that is. the cost is simply so small. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Velzi
Finland659 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
My item suggestion would be... Core: Tranquils, Urn, (Midas?) Extension: Shiva's Agh's Blink Refresher Situational: Atos, Eul, Veil, Halberd, Pipe Probably leave out Pipe if it's too many situational items. Midas could go either way on including. You could even put Shiva's as Core if you really want to push people towards it. It's the most generically useful item after Urn, but it's also difficult to build up compared to a lot of the situational items. I don't really know what the point of Ghost Scepter on Phoenix is supposed to be. I mean it's not the worst since the spells are HP removal so you aren't killing yourself, but generally your other item choices should make you durable enough to not need a ghost scepter. In the case of abilities like omnislash the ult does just as well in protecting Phoenix. Plus if anyone is right clicking you without bkb up you should have their attack speed slowed to a crawl. I think in most cases the Eul's will do better because of its ability to self dispel which is really useful for Phoenix (Eul's -> Ult can be really effective). I'd say the biggest problem is that support and offlane phoenix typically skill very differently (1-4-4 vs 4-4-1 at the two extremes, but also anywhere in between) and a guide can't capture that well. In general though the guide seems largely fine. Phoenix isn't an obvious hero to play, not that the bird is mechanically difficult (I hate when people argue about that), just non-obvious if you casually pick it. You need a good feel for how strong your abilities are and how aggressive you can be and no guide is really going to be able to cover that. With the HP removal on cast, the attack speed slow, and all that it's a bit difficult to evaluate situations unless you are used to playing the hero. That and Phoenix can really use any item with a right click active decently well. | ||
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Beirut
United States673 Posts
Cheers, and thanks again! | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On February 05 2015 04:35 Velzi wrote: even if qb didnt increase damage as much as it does now, heroes like juggernaut and so on benefit a lot from just being able to cut trees between camps (am doesnt really care about that but qb is still good for him). You're right. I usually start jungling right after Phase Boots, so I'll slot it there. On February 05 2015 04:40 Beirut wrote: Hey man, just wanted to drop by and thank you for all the work you've put in over the last couple years for these guides! You made my first games with new heroes much more enjoyable, and in the absence of real guides from Valve you're doing a huge service for the community. Cheers, and thanks again! Huge thanks (: As you can tell, it's not just me but everyone who's giving better ideas and understanding of the heroes! On February 05 2015 04:36 Logo wrote: For Phoenix removing Mek sounds good. The starting items look pretty good overall though, I'm just not sure that 3 branches are as useful as a 2nd set of tangos (which I've seen people do), but I don't think either way makes much of a difference. My item suggestion would be... Core: Tranquils, Urn, (Midas?) Extension: Shiva's Agh's Blink Refresher Situational: Atos, Eul, Veil, Halberd, Pipe Probably leave out Pipe if it's too many situational items. Midas could go either way on including. You could even put Shiva's as Core if you really want to push people towards it. It's the most generically useful item after Urn, but it's also difficult to build up compared to a lot of the situational items. I don't really know what the point of Ghost Scepter on Phoenix is supposed to be. I mean it's not the worst since the spells are HP removal so you aren't killing yourself, but generally your other item choices should make you durable enough to not need a ghost scepter. In the case of abilities like omnislash the ult does just as well in protecting Phoenix. Plus if anyone is right clicking you without bkb up you should have their attack speed slowed to a crawl. I think in most cases the Eul's will do better because of its ability to self dispel which is really useful for Phoenix (Eul's -> Ult can be really effective). I'd say the biggest problem is that support and offlane phoenix typically skill very differently (1-4-4 vs 4-4-1 at the two extremes, but also anywhere in between) and a guide can't capture that well. In general though the guide seems largely fine. Phoenix isn't an obvious hero to play, not that the bird is mechanically difficult (I hate when people argue about that), just non-obvious if you casually pick it. You need a good feel for how strong your abilities are and how aggressive you can be and no guide is really going to be able to cover that. With the HP removal on cast, the attack speed slow, and all that it's a bit difficult to evaluate situations unless you are used to playing the hero. That and Phoenix can really use any item with a right click active decently well. You're right on Ghost Scepter, kind of a dumb thing, but I had put it on there back then because of your E, thought it was a cool combo :x I used to play 1-4-4 and in general, I found I wasn't quite good enough to utilize E well without completely killing myself. We switched it to 4-4-1 for a more offensive and generally easier, Phoenix. Thanks for the help. My only issue is Midas. Generally I tried to avoid it because people fall into the trap of getting it too late anyways or, worst, never get it and keep feeding. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
And all that is before you even consider the incredibly helpful experience boost. Overall I think Phoenix is pretty good at delaying items in the mid-game. Most of Phoenix's itemizations seem geared towards keeping the bird relevant for the late game. It's less clear cut if you either really need the platemail for something or you want to go another item first, but there's probably still strong arguments for even a pretty late hand of midas*. I think the only exception is if you have a ton of XP, but little gold. There's not nearly as much point to the Midas if you're already level 13 or 14 by time you can afford it. *In a recent DAC game Midas was picked up at 18:00 and it still felt really powerful and low risk. I'd say 20 or so minutes would be the cut off. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
It tends to be more likely that you'll get a 10-minute farm phase early in the game than later, but that's not always the case. Just use your brain. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
 InvokerAdded Iron Branch to Starting Items Removed Necromonicon Added Orchid of Malevolence to Situational Items Added Magic Wand to Core Items Remade Guide  JuggernautSkill Build: Q W E Stats Stats R Stats Stats E W R E E W W R Stats Stats Stats Stats Stats Stats Q Q Q (1. Blade Dance 2. Healing Ward 3. Stats 4. Blade Fury) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tangos, 2x Iron Branch, Healing Salve Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Core Items: Phase Boots, Quelling Blade, Mask of Madness, Yasha, Skull Basher, Manta Style Situational Items: Diffusal Blade, Black King Bar, Sange & Yasha, Battlefury, Mjollnir Extension Items: Abyssal, Butterfly, Satanic, Monkey King Bar, Eye of Skadi  Doom (Lane)Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Phoenix (Lane) Phoenix (Middle) Moved Mekansm to Situational Items Removed Ghost Scepter Added Veil of Discord to Extension Items Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items Moved Heaven's Halberd to Situational Items Added Rod of Atos to Situational Items Removed Pipe of Insight | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
As for Midas, I'll leave it out. Still leaves me with the conundrum with how Warlock is played now. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 06 2015 04:35 TheYango wrote: There's never a "cut-off" for Midas, it just depends on the flow of the game. If the next 10-ish minutes of the game are going to be relatively farmy, you can make it worth it. It tends to be more likely that you'll get a 10-minute farm phase early in the game than later, but that's not always the case. Just use your brain. Yeah, true of course, but there is the XP to consider. There's much less value in catching Phoenix up to level 16 late or buying it when you're already 16 or close to it. Midas feels strong because if you get it in the level 7-11 range (from decent offlane experience) you can keep up a high XPM and have the levels needed to really be a big threat by getting level 2/3 ult and sun ray online early. If you're already like 15 or so the XP benefit isn't really going to matter and it's just there for the gold which is still good, but not nearly as useful. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I feel wand is pointless, so maybe more regen from the get-go is needed. Also, the jump from Urn to Shiva's is brutal | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
Can Phoenix even mid? I've never actually tried and was always scared to because of her terrible base dmg and armor. I'd say watch the two Phoenix DAC games today. both were beautifully played Phoenix, but from different starts and with different setups. + Show Spoiler + EG vs Na'vi game 2 and HR vs VG game 1 | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
I'll play another game and try Midas after Urn. I felt even when I could get midas, it was pretty late (13-15 mins) | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 06 2015 06:18 Torte de Lini wrote: He mids pretty well, just not much use as mid in comparison to others of course. I'll play another game and try Midas after Urn. I felt even when I could get midas, it was pretty late (13-15 mins) That's fine really. By time items are more important than levels the Midas, even a 15 minute one, will have paid for itself. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
My homework is to confirm: 1. Meka on Jungle doom still works 2. Phoenix - Midas 3. Warlock - Midas | ||
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