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On January 10 2015 00:31 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 17:31 Torte de Lini wrote:
It's akin to late-game Queen of Pain where you want to take advantage of his decent damage when your disables no longer work. That's not really the right comparison. For the most part, Storm kind of just wants mana-providing mixed offensive/defensive items to develop his overall usefulness. Skadi/Shiva/etc. are the typical kind of 5th/6th item you'd see on him. MKB is specifically for the situation you need more DPS. Sheep disables Evasion, but if you can kill someone in short enough time for Sheep to be enough, that's not a situation where you need more damage, so "why get MKB when you already get Sheep?" is not really a valid question because the only time you'd consider MKB is if Sheep's disable isn't good enough for you to finish kills. From there, on a hero that didn't really buy DPS heroes for the rest of the game, MKB is the most straightforwardly effective DPS item to buy, especially when Evasion is involved.
I don't see that at all. I'm seeing a lot of straight up damage after Orchid and maybe Linken's/Scythe of Vyse or Bloodstone. I'm seeing a lot of damage items (Deso/Daedalus/MKB) as their final items.
On January 10 2015 00:31 TheYango wrote:The upside of Remnant is farming speed. You'll usually finish your Orchid around level 11, and from there your game will be very farm/splitpush/solo-kill oriented until your 2nd major item. The 4th rank of Vortex doesn't really help you with this, because while it's a better disable, almost all your kills in that level range really want to be finished during the Orchid duration--which means you don't need the longer pull stun after it guaranteed pulls people into Remnant anyway. With that out of the way, Remnant is a big boost to your farming speed in both pushing out lanes and clearing jungle camps.
Yes, I prefer Remnant overall for the damage regardless.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2015 05:10 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't see that at all. I'm seeing a lot of straight up damage after Orchid and maybe Linken's/Scythe of Vyse or Bloodstone. I'm seeing a lot of damage items (Deso/Daedalus/MKB) as their final items.
I said that stuff is 5th/6th item. Linken BStone Sheep BKB are the kind of stuff you get 2nd/3rd/4th item after your Orchid.
Whether you get overall stats/mana or straight damage on 5th/6th item depends on the game.
On January 10 2015 05:06 Torte de Lini wrote:
I've played about 4 games as Storm Spirit and even I could see the value of maxing our Overload, especially as my foes fled. I'm going to keep trying to play him, but I think even without executing the combo perfectly, it's still preferable for most.
Without the full combo being executed well, it drops the value a lot because a lot of is how the raw killing power interacts with your Orchid solo kills.
The initiating/disabling power of Vortex is fairly constant regardless of the Storm player's skill, because any player can yolo in, turn on BKB, pull a guy, and let his team do the rest.
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These days i've been seeing a lot of storm builds along the lines of
bottle->treads->soul ring->orchid then diverging into fighting (bkb) or farming (bloodstone). even if the bloodstone isn't being completed, soul ring seems popular before orchid. And arcanes seem pretty ignored, even though you can disassemble them for bloodstone at some point. All the rest of ur items are situational extension anyway.
Just what i've seen in competitive, pubs, and high-level streams.
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On January 10 2015 05:17 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:10 Torte de Lini wrote:
I don't see that at all. I'm seeing a lot of straight up damage after Orchid and maybe Linken's/Scythe of Vyse or Bloodstone. I'm seeing a lot of damage items (Deso/Daedalus/MKB) as their final items. I said that stuff is 5th/6th item. Linken BStone Sheep BKB are the kind of stuff you get 2nd/3rd/4th item after your Orchid. Whether you get overall stats/mana or straight damage on 5th/6th item depends on the game. Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 05:06 Torte de Lini wrote:
I've played about 4 games as Storm Spirit and even I could see the value of maxing our Overload, especially as my foes fled. I'm going to keep trying to play him, but I think even without executing the combo perfectly, it's still preferable for most.
Without the full combo being executed well, it drops the value a lot because a lot of is how the raw killing power interacts with your Orchid solo kills. The initiating/disabling power of Vortex is fairly constant regardless of the Storm player's skill, because any player can yolo in, turn on BKB, pull a guy, and let his team do the rest.
Even without the full combo being executed well, the extra damage early on will help with laning and subsequently his early ganks after hitting ~6
I think that is the most difficult/challenging and core part of Storm Spirit's play that needs the best build. The early passive buff helps with that all around
Evidently, I need to play more Storm Spirit.
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Isn't getting 2x Stout Shield instead of Shield+Ring of Protection better on Axe when going jungle? When the first shield fails to proc, the second shield has a chance to proc. This gives you a 0.53 + (0.47 * 0.53) == 77.91% chance to block 20 damage.
Axe jungles extremely fast regardless because of his ability to clear stacks with Helix, so the cash will earn itself back easily.
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no
because the rop builds into tranqs and 3 armor is a lot
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On January 10 2015 07:12 Sn0_Man wrote:
no
because the rop builds into tranqs and 3 armor is a lot
Ah right, 3 armor is ≈15% consistent damage reduction for 200g.
Now that I do the math: Considering you spend 20% more then a RoP on an extra shield to get from ≈53% to ≈74% chance to block a set amount of damage; yet you lose the consistent ≈15% by not picking up the RoP at spawn. Pretty expensive.
And here I thought I had a revolutionary idea lol. Back into the trenches I go 
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ur idea was the standard build before tranquils existed
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United States47024 Posts
On January 10 2015 06:57 Torte de Lini wrote:
Even without the full combo being executed well, the extra damage early on will help with laning and subsequently his early ganks after hitting ~6
It's not extra damage in ganks unless you combo perfectly. If you don't combo perfectly, you actually LOSE damage relative to 1-3-1, because rank 1 Vortex is 140 damage, and going from rank 1 to rank 3 Overload is 40 damage over 2 ranks, meaning you have to hit 4 Overload hits in order to make up for not being able to pull them into the Remnant (more if you consider that the difference in disable duration gives you an extra regular autoattack or so). That basically requires you to combo perfectly because at low levels, you won't get the chance to just throw in a bunch of extra ult jumps for more Overload damage since you won't have the mana for it (or you have to position yourself really well so that they end up bumping the remnant regardless, but that also requires really good positioning and proficiency at the hero).
1-1-4-1 isn't categorically better--it assumes relatively high proficiency with the hero for its superiority to be realized. Otherwise, it actually is losing out to having 3 pull early in a lot of ways, because as I said, pull is just more idiot-proof.
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On January 10 2015 07:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 06:57 Torte de Lini wrote:
Even without the full combo being executed well, the extra damage early on will help with laning and subsequently his early ganks after hitting ~6
It's not extra damage in ganks unless you combo perfectly. If you don't combo perfectly, you actually LOSE damage relative to 1-3-1, because rank 1 Vortex is 140 damage, and going from rank 1 to rank 3 Overload is 40 damage over 2 ranks, meaning you have to hit 4 Overload hits in order to make up for not being able to pull them into the Remnant (more if you consider that the difference in disable duration gives you an extra regular autoattack or so). That basically requires you to combo perfectly because at low levels, you won't get the chance to just throw in a bunch of extra ult jumps for more Overload damage since you won't have the mana for it (or you have to position yourself really well so that they end up bumping the remnant regardless, but that also requires really good positioning and proficiency at the hero). 1-1-4-1 isn't categorically better--it assumes relatively high proficiency with the hero for its superiority to be realized. Otherwise, it actually is losing out to having 3 pull early in a lot of ways, because as I said, pull is just more idiot-proof.
I'll play more games with Storm Spirit. But from my experience, I always needed that extra bit damage over the extra pull.
It'll mean losing more games but I'll see what you mean by the combo.
By policy, it is best to show what the standard is over what would be easier to do (reminds me of the Kunkka middle dilemma) but I can understand how it is universally better and more catering to not max overload first (and we've definitely flexed on it before)
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United States47024 Posts
It's also worth noting that it's not really that cut and dry comparing 1-3-1 and 1-1-3. Honestly if you're providing a generic skill order, it's probably best to have 1-3-3-1 by level 8. 1-2-4-1 only does more damage than 1-3-3-1 if you can get the Remnant hit with rank 2 pull by jumping to the right spot. If you miss the Remnant hit, you outright do less damage because you don't get 7 Overload hits in most ganks (which is how many you need for 20 more Overload damage to make up for losing 140 Remnant damage).
On January 10 2015 21:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
By policy, it is best to show what the standard is over what would be easier to do (reminds me of the Kunkka middle dilemma) but I can understand how it is universally better and more catering to not max overload first (and we've definitely flexed on it before)
The thing is, I don't agree with that in this case, because what's "standard" simply isn't useful to a player that's using this guide. By the time a player is good enough at Storm to play 1-1-4-1 to its full potential, they will have long outgrown this guide and be able to make decisions about the hero on their own. Nobody who's that good at Storm needs a guide to tell them how to skill the hero.
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On January 11 2015 05:08 TheYango wrote:It's also worth noting that it's not really that cut and dry comparing 1-3-1 and 1-1-3. Honestly if you're providing a generic skill order, it's probably best to have 1-3-3-1 by level 8. 1-2-4-1 only does more damage than 1-3-3-1 if you can get the Remnant hit with rank 2 pull by jumping to the right spot. If you miss the Remnant hit, you outright do less damage because you don't get 7 Overload hits in most ganks (which is how many you need for 20 more Overload damage to make up for losing 140 Remnant damage). Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 21:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
By policy, it is best to show what the standard is over what would be easier to do (reminds me of the Kunkka middle dilemma) but I can understand how it is universally better and more catering to not max overload first (and we've definitely flexed on it before) The thing is, I don't agree with that in this case, because what's "standard" simply isn't useful to a player that's using this guide. By the time a player is good enough at Storm to play 1-1-4-1 to its full potential, they will have long outgrown this guide and be able to make decisions about the hero on their own. Nobody who's that good at Storm needs a guide to tell them how to skill the hero.
1-3-3-1 definitely sounds like a good in-betweener. I'll do that now.
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Storm Spirit
New Skill Build: Q E E W E R W W E Q R Q Q W (1. Overload 2. Static Remnant 3. Electric Vortex)
 Razor
Removed Mekansm
Added Drums of Endurance to Core Items
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United States47024 Posts
Still should have rank 2 Remnant instead of rank 4 Vortex at 10, IMO.
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On January 11 2015 05:41 TheYango wrote:
Still should have rank 2 Remnant instead of rank 4 Vortex at 10, IMO.
So what's the skill build you are suggesting because it is now something completely new.
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United States47024 Posts
You just swap rank 4 W and rank 2 Q where they are, everything else is fine.
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On January 11 2015 05:51 TheYango wrote:
You just swap rank 4 W and rank 2 Q where they are, everything else is fine.
done!
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Pursuant to the last 2 patches nerfing pounce, I feel like lane carry slark should be maxing pact over pounce more often than not. You farm much faster with max pact and pounce's impact is increasingly restricted to it's leash rather than impact damage which doesn't change with levels.
Basically W/Q/E/Q/Q/R/Q/W/W/W/R/E/E/E etc
As a mid slark there's slightly more motivation to max pounce since you could conceivably go ganking especially with a rune and when ganking having the lower cooldown on pounce is highly desirable but even then pact is more dmg etc.
Also I'm not sure that I grasp the motivation for splitting the guides when there's no real difference.
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EPT
