EPTFor Treant, I might make a dual-core build as there is a defensive style Treant (leading to Aghs) and a more support style Treant (leading to Mekansm)
This is similar to the dual-core Chen build.
In-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 133
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
For Treant, I might make a dual-core build as there is a defensive style Treant (leading to Aghs) and a more support style Treant (leading to Mekansm) This is similar to the dual-core Chen build. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 20 2014 18:22 Torte de Lini wrote: If I recall, Mask of Madness is gimmicky, no? I remember the Medusa topic being split about it and I brought it up here previously. I'll read up on it, I am 100% for changing the build, I just don't know all her playstyles (I just avoid fights and farm to Linken's and then fight, which turns out al'right thanks to my ult) yes and no? It's not really gimmicky in the sense that the item makes a lot of sense. Dusa can flash clear the jungle with MoM, but it also does a lot for her in combat: gives much needed movespeed, works well with split shot, high damage (especially off her ult), and with mana shield & ult she can mitigate or survive the +30% dmg effects. So it seems to work really well as a farm accelerator while still making good use of a slot. It's also gimmicky in the sense that you want to skip mystic snake if you go MoM because you need the maxed mana shield and split shot for it to work well (split shot for jungle, mana shield for not dieing). So it's an item and build for a safe safelane farm. That would make it a poor choice for the guide because you can't really make that sort of distinction in a meaningful way. In more practical terms the guide I guess isn't that bad since you do have yasha + Aquila there as core. Maybe Linkens could be an extension or extension/core type category along with something like Skadi and maybe some other items. Yasha -> Skadi is one of the other popular builds and seems pretty legit if you aren't worried about chain targeted stuns as it gives more useful stats to Medusa (more damage, more attack speed, more hp, more mana) for a comparable price. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
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Buckyman
1364 Posts
On December 20 2014 03:49 Bunn wrote: It hasn't been viable for awhile but I was really adamant about trying to make it work. I tried Choke-Jungling, I tried it with teams of 3-4-5, etc. Never did well, never won, never got enough duels to make her comfortable late-game. I did a bunch of experimenting with jungling Legion Commander on Radiant. I concluded that the best strategy was to chain pull, at which point you might as well use the Lane skill build and use Overwhelming Odds to pop a giant stack. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On December 21 2014 01:00 Logo wrote: yes and no? It's not really gimmicky in the sense that the item makes a lot of sense. Dusa can flash clear the jungle with MoM, but it also does a lot for her in combat: gives much needed movespeed, works well with split shot, high damage (especially off her ult), and with mana shield & ult she can mitigate or survive the +30% dmg effects. So it seems to work really well as a farm accelerator while still making good use of a slot. It's also gimmicky in the sense that you want to skip mystic snake if you go MoM because you need the maxed mana shield and split shot for it to work well (split shot for jungle, mana shield for not dieing). So it's an item and build for a safe safelane farm. That would make it a poor choice for the guide because you can't really make that sort of distinction in a meaningful way. In more practical terms the guide I guess isn't that bad since you do have yasha + Aquila there as core. Maybe Linkens could be an extension or extension/core type category along with something like Skadi and maybe some other items. Yasha -> Skadi is one of the other popular builds and seems pretty legit if you aren't worried about chain targeted stuns as it gives more useful stats to Medusa (more damage, more attack speed, more hp, more mana) for a comparable price. The issue I'm having is that I'm not seeing Mask of Madness used consistently on a pro level or high level pub players: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/138667621/matches?hero=medusa While Linken's is still widely gotten for everyone as well as matches I've spectated. Yeah, I added Yasha in there a month or two ago because a straight-shot to Linken's was awkward and even I didn't like it. I think in terms of order, you'd want Linken's before Skadi no? | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
in all honesty, mask of madness is a gimmick at best and really relies on your enemies being stupid and looking at you during stone gaze. it has potential as they're running away, but i think the yasha provides you with more overall. its not like you're looking for a little lifesteal, either on that hero. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
The bigger question here is if linken's should be the item medusa is rushing. Medusa hasn't really fundamentally changed in several patches, nor have there been changes to the items she gets. The problem is that Linken's in and of itself is always a situational item... but the alternative is a bkb. These guides aren't for people who are going to be able to differentiate that. Anyways, as I've just said I detest dusa, other people can suggest better builds for her than I can (mine would be generic phase aquila drums wand linkens manta, extension skadi, butterfly, satanic and rapier and bkb in optional) | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2014 04:59 Torte de Lini wrote: I just want to ban the sequence of words "depends on the game" in this thread Its just the truth. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of item and even skill choices are too flexible and situational for a guide of this format to do them justice. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
After almost 2 years doing this, I think I got the message haha. I still want it banned because in the end, I have to make a decision. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 21 2014 02:59 BluemoonSC wrote: depends on the game. if there are some potent single target abilities that you would like to avoid, go linkens. if not, go skadi. linkens was great for sustain and provided medusa with what she needs..but at the same time, skadi gives you more if you're the aggressor in a team fight since it allows you to chase. alternatively, you could complete your manta style if you feel that manta can provide more than a linkens. in all honesty, mask of madness is a gimmick at best and really relies on your enemies being stupid and looking at you during stone gaze. it has potential as they're running away, but i think the yasha provides you with more overall. its not like you're looking for a little lifesteal, either on that hero. The point of MoM is more that it lets you farm faster than any other possible 2k gold expenditure if you can max split shot first (i.e skip snake). You use that to flash clear the jungle at level 6-7 so by the next 10 minutes rolls around you're already done and past your next major item in a comparable time to just slow farming it from aquila or yasha. The combat potential of it can be a bit gimmicky yes, but it still works even outside of stone gaze (i.e. a team ult or just supporting stuns). The point is more that you can clear 3 jungle camps within a minute with time to pop in lane for a creep wave in a way that's mana and hp sustainable while also having the attack power to clear ancients or ancient stacks. Since dusa is one of the end all be alls of farming heroes I'd think a 2k gold expenditure that helps her farm really fast without being nearly as much of a money sink as Midas is a pretty good deal if you can pull it off (which you probably can't in most games since your safelane will be contested). The stone gaze potential is more for if someone is trying to gank you, especially 1v1 or 2v1, they need to think again. Either they turn and are dealing no damage to you or they turn to stone. Either way you're taking no damage while hitting them with MoM attack speed. It's also great for hitting towers and dusa is a pretty good pusher come mid game with a counter-initiation option so that can come in handy as well. --- But again for the guide skip it entirely. I'd say just Aquila + Phase (not treads imo) + Yasha as core. Extensions are Linkens (well known), Skadi (again it gives great tanky stats for ~ same cost at Linkens so if you aren't able to be chain nuked in fights it works much better), and maybe Maelstorm (screws with orbs dusa wants but it's a great farm acceleration if you're behind in farm/mid game helping you get the Linkens or Skadi faster). But then again I also wouldn't take my advice and find someone better to tell you want to put in there :D. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2014 05:22 Torte de Lini wrote: I was saying that in jest because in the end, all the discussion boils down to "depends on the game", I mean that's one of the main appeals about Dota. Game dependent variations and uniqueness. After almost 2 years doing this, I think I got the message haha. I still want it banned because in the end, I have to make a decision. Just take it as meaning any decision you have to make will be equally wrong and equally right. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
On December 21 2014 05:22 Torte de Lini wrote: I was saying that in jest because in the end, all the discussion boils down to "depends on the game", I mean that's one of the main appeals about Dota. Game dependent variations and uniqueness. After almost 2 years doing this, I think I got the message haha. I still want it banned because in the end, I have to make a decision. i can understand that sentiment, but at the end of the day, those are the things that you need to consider when creating a standard guide. "depends on the game" means that you, as the creator, need to decide what will more often than not be the correct item build if you have no idea what to purchase in a generic scenario. also, like it was mentioned above..you should say to yourself "would i get pissed off if i saw this in a pub" i like that lol On December 21 2014 05:46 Logo wrote: The point of MoM is more that it lets you farm faster than any other possible 2k gold expenditure if you can max split shot first (i.e skip snake). You use that to flash clear the jungle at level 6-7 so by the next 10 minutes rolls around you're already done and past your next major item in a comparable time to just slow farming it from aquila or yasha. The combat potential of it can be a bit gimmicky yes, but it still works even outside of stone gaze (i.e. a team ult or just supporting stuns). The point is more that you can clear 3 jungle camps within a minute with time to pop in lane for a creep wave in a way that's mana and hp sustainable while also having the attack power to clear ancients or ancient stacks. Since dusa is one of the end all be alls of farming heroes I'd think a 2k gold expenditure that helps her farm really fast without being nearly as much of a money sink as Midas is a pretty good deal if you can pull it off (which you probably can't in most games since your safelane will be contested). when i think of heroes that should pick up mask of madness in a generic scenario, i think of heroes whose skillsets benefit from the extra attack speed, a la faceless void and time lock or spirit breaker and his bash damage. but we definitely agree it shouldn't be in the guide. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Dota 2's damage layer rules put Mana Shield before MoM's amplification, which is favorable for the interaction between the two items (it's the same net % damage reduction as if they applied in reverse order, but Mana Shield operates at significantly higher mana efficiency than if it followed the "expected" interaction). | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8933 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2014 09:48 BluemoonSC wrote: is that intended? Should be, Mana Shield applies before pretty much everything in War3. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 21 2014 09:44 TheYango wrote: No one's mentioned the positive interaction between MoM and Mana Shield, which is what motivated the item on Dusa in the first place. Dota 2's damage layer rules put Mana Shield before MoM's amplification, which is favorable for the interaction between the two items (it's the same net % damage reduction as if they applied in reverse order, but Mana Shield operates at significantly higher mana efficiency than if it followed the "expected" interaction). I was only like 60% sure that was how it worked and didn't want to be wrong  . Most of my Momdusa games I end up with Skadi before anyone makes a serious go at me so it's hard to judge Mom's extra damage % lol.But yeah it's pretty awesome and also why you need to be able to go splitshot + max mana shield. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On December 20 2014 19:25 Torte de Lini wrote: see previous post for responses For Treant, I might make a dual-core build as there is a defensive style Treant (leading to Aghs) and a more support style Treant (leading to Mekansm) This is similar to the dual-core Chen build. Also: Feedback and Updates won't be slowed this coming holiday season, but playtesting guides will unfortunately be severely reduced for at least the coming two weeks to a month (so I can maintain updating the guides, just can't play many games than usual sadly) | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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