EPTIn-Game Standard Hero Builds Project - Page 135
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On December 23 2014 23:32 Nevuk wrote: You have 7 levels of press the attack on LC there It's a typo I fixed it | ||
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
Donkey + Tangoes + 3x Branch + 2x Clarity = 120 + 125 + 150 + 100 = 495 (If you're talking about having both donkey and obs on the starting items, it's an either/or thing, not both. every support guide has it like that) | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Legion Commander (Lane) (previously Jungle) Skill Build: W Q Q E Q R Q W W W R E E E R (1. Overwhelming Odds 2. Press The Attack 3. Moment of Courage) Starting Items: Stout Shield, Tango, 3x Iron Branches Early Game: Boots of Speed, Magic Wand Initiation Items: Blink Dagger, Shadow Blade Core Items: Power Treads, Black King Bar Situational Items: Armlet of Mordiggan, Maelstrom, Blade Mail Extension Items: Mjollnir, Assault Cuirass, Abyssal Blade, Heaven's Halberd Damage-Dealers (Duel): Desolator, Daedalus  Lifestealer (Lane)Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Added Daedalus to Extension Items Lifestealer (Middle)Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Added Daedalus to Extension Items Centaur Warrunner Moved Pipe of Insight to Core Items Removed Hood of Defiance Crystal Maiden Moved Force Staff to Core Items Added Eul's Scepter of Divinity to Situational Items Added Ethreal Blade to Extension Items  RazorAdded Magic Wand to Core Items Legion Commander (Middle) Added Assault Cuirass to Extension Items Spirit Breaker New Skill Build: Q E Q E W R Q Q E E R W W W (1. Charge of Darkness 2. Greater Bash 3. Empowering Haste) Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Removed Mask of Madness Added Blade Mail to Core Items Added Drums of Endurance to Situational Items Added Vladmir's Offering to Extension Items Moved Sange & Yasha to Extension Items Removed Butterfly Removed Daedalus  MedusaAdded Ultimate Orb to Core Items Created New Tab: "Defense/Offense (both)" Moved Eye of Skadi to Defense/Offense Moved Linken's Sphere to Defense/Offense  TidehunterNew Skill Build: E Q E W W R W E E W R Q Q Q (1. Anchor Smash 2. Kraken Shell 3. Gush) Treant Protector Added Orb of Venome to Situational Items Moved Urn of Shadows to Core Items Moved Necromonicon to Extension Items Moved Aghanim's Scepter to Extension Items  RubickRemoved Iron Branch | ||
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On December 25 2014 05:11 Pooshlmer wrote: Ah, I see. I got confused because I usually buy both in my games .You a do-gooder  | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
If you find yourself playing a1p4 pub support, too bad, in 90% of cases you should suck it up and buy both. Even if there are two supports, you're sometimes going to do better if one buys obs+cour and the other gets either sents/smoke or a boots start. About the only case where a solo support really can't afford both is when they need a ton of consumables to outtrade specific offlaners. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
imo, you should seriously consider at least reordering your support starters so they go cour, obs, tango, [clarities/ggs/salve]. That way when people naturally buy items left-to-right, they can get both obs and cour if necessary and then run out of money somewhere in the bonus stuff. I feel a lot of your lane carries (eg. PL, weaver, naga, antimage) don't start with enough regen. I really don't think you can plan for trilanes at the level these guides are directed at, and 1-regen starts are really greedy in 2v2s. If you have less than tango+salve, even relatively strong laners can be pushed out by way too many offensive duals, and then you're screwed. For PL, you seem to drop a salve for 2x clarity. I don't really like that. Clarities are problematic on carries because unless the enemies are completely unable to approach the creepwave, you have to give up a ton of cs to keep them from being cancelled. You really only want them if you have a very strong kill lane and can feed off someone and clarity while they're dead/backing. Even very strong laners like weaver can use extra regen to trade aggressively if they don't need it to stay alive. Weaver has a ton of basedamage so really doesn't need the slipper, especially when he can get that from sideshop. Naga and antimage are currently going for stout+qb+tango starts, which I consider greedy. Especially for AM, the salve often makes the difference between making it to RoH and having to back. imo, about the only heroes who really don't need 2x regen in pubs are those who can't use it to trade but do have some kind of built-in sustain, like DK or lifestealer. Items for your mids are a lot harder to cookie-cutter because it depends so much on matchups. In general, since your subscribers are going to be bad at lasthitting I think it's dangerous to do 1-regen starts unless those heroes are bottle-rushing (tango+3gg). Kka and ember, for example, get tango+stout+3gg, which I really think leaves them at risk of being harassed down before they get enough cs for bottle. I would suggest either tango+3gg or tango+salve+stout+2gg on most melees, depending on how urgently they want mana sustain. Your ranged mids seem to be generally getting salve+tango+3-4ggs, which I think is great. I'm not sure I'd call it standard but it's definitely pub-safe, and that's exactly what I'd aim for here. Although puck gets tango+salve and no ggs, and I've never seen that in my life. idk maybe there was a discussion about all this that I missed. Some other things: Personally, I think BoTs should be extension on almost every carry. PLs items are weird. Manta is situational at best on new PL, and BKB and basher should be at least situational, possibly core. Satanic should be in extension; it's better than heart now that it stacks with diffu. I don't like dusa much at all. I can see what you're trying to do with the core ulti-orb, but way too many people are going to see yasha+orb and finish manta rather than go yasha+skadi, and manta-first dusa is terrible. I also think you should consider "defensive" and "offensive" tabs instead of "both" (what does that even mean?) and "extension". Dusa makes most of her post-core item choices based on whether she needs damage or tank, and she can get away with almost any specific items so long as she's making that choice right. I would do something like: defensive: skadi, linkens, satanic, sheep offensive: bfly, mjoll, divine, manta, daedalus and put drums, bkb, mkb and maybe a farming mael in situational. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Having more regen isn't a bad thing. Even if you don't *need* it, a Salve lets you trade down in a way that's worth more than the 100 gold. Knowing when to start greedy comes down to experience a guide-reader won't have, and when you don't have that it's pretty much always better to err on the side of having too much regen rather than too little. On December 26 2014 10:51 Belisarius wrote: Personally, I think BoTs should be extension on almost every carry. I don't really like that, because the decision between buying Travel's straight up to split-push vs. keeping Treads + saving Buyback+Travels so that you have the superior Treads fighting stats for your first life depends a lot on the game. Listing it as extension will give people the impression you should be selling Treads for Travels the moment you hit 6-item when it's really not that simple. On December 26 2014 10:51 Belisarius wrote: PLs items are weird. Manta is situational at best on new PL, and BKB and basher should be at least situational, possibly core. Satanic should be in extension; it's better than heart now that it stacks with diffu. Agree with the changes, though Satanic isn't straight-up better than Heart. Satanic is superior for for straight-up manfights, but Heart regen always has value for sieges that Satanic can't match + melee Heart on a hero with a strong escape/disengage skill makes activating Heart regen for a few seconds in a fight very realistic. On December 26 2014 10:51 Belisarius wrote: I don't like dusa much at all. I can see what you're trying to do with the core ulti-orb, but way too many people are going to see yasha+orb and finish manta rather than go yasha+skadi, and manta-first dusa is terrible. I also think you should consider "defensive" and "offensive" tabs instead of "both" (what does that even mean?) and "extension". Dusa makes most of her post-core item choices based on whether she needs damage or tank, and she can get away with almost any specific items so long as she's making that choice right. I would do something like: defensive: skadi, linkens, satanic, sheep offensive: bfly, mjoll, divine, manta, daedalus and put drums, bkb, mkb and maybe a farming mael in situational. Agree somewhat, though I think Satanic/Bfly should be in their own category since they both just fundamentally scale off having high damage/EHP already and should be considered later rather than earlier. | ||
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tehh4ck3r
Magrathea7080 Posts
EDIT: Also I'm not sure how core aghs is on him. aghs gives him a solid disable but the cast range is pretty shitty and veil amps his damage by *so* much (and helps his team out a lot as well) | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On December 26 2014 11:47 TheYango wrote: I don't really like that, because the decision between buying Travel's straight up to split-push vs. keeping Treads + saving Buyback+Travels so that you have the superior Treads fighting stats for your first life depends a lot on the game. Listing it as extension will give people the impression you should be selling Treads for Travels the moment you hit 6-item when it's really not that simple. idk I really don't think too many of the people these guides are targeted at are going to be able to make that choice correctly anyway. The far more likely scenario is people slotting themselves out of TP scrolls way too early and then losing to a rat because BoTs weren't in the guide. On December 26 2014 11:47 TheYango wrote: Agree with the changes, though Satanic isn't straight-up better than Heart. Satanic is superior for for straight-up manfights, but Heart regen always has value for sieges that Satanic can't match + melee Heart on a hero with a strong escape/disengage skill makes activating Heart regen for a few seconds in a fight very realistic. You're right, heart vs. satanic is situational but you usually want one, and satanic is very good. Someone said this in the PL thread and I largely agree; PL is really played one of two ways, depending on the game. Either the "I wish this hero had never been changed" way, with diffu+heart+manta+bfly for rat and seige, or the new fighting carry with diffu+BKB+basher into satanic/abyssal and maybe bfly/skadi. I personally think the latter is a smoother development for these guides. On December 26 2014 11:47 TheYango wrote: Agree somewhat, though I think Satanic/Bfly should be in their own category since they both just fundamentally scale off having high damage/EHP already and should be considered later rather than earlier. Personally I think bfly is fine from like 2nd-3rd major, and dusa's very rarely going to be looking at it earlier than that. Satanic definitely should be gotten later, but that's no different than any other hero. I see that if it were set up the way I suggested, someone could conceivably come along and build yasha->satanic and think that was fine, but I do think that's an edge case. Maybe if skadi were core? Treads/phase->RoA->yasha->skadi ->(damage item)->(whatever) is a reasonable cookie-cutter to aim for, to me. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Happy Holidays nonetheless. | ||
BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
however, yango is correct in stating that the decision to build BoTs is way more complex than a guide can offer you..so its best to leave that choice to individual player decision. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
I can count the number of games I've lost because a carry bought BoTs too early on one hand, and most of those were guys buying 1st-2nd item BoTs on SF because they saw rtz do it once. Comparatively, I lose at least a game a week because my carry decides his 5th item is more important than a TP scroll and gets stuck on the other side of the map while the enemy take rax. Ultimately it's up to TDL. Maybe he assumes his clientele know how important being able to TP is and know to consider BoTs as soon as they slot out, but that seems like a much higher standard than they're held to in everything else. | ||
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BluemoonSC
SoCal8910 Posts
if you're dealing with someone who happens to be separated from his team pushing a tower a couple times, just carry a tp. in either case, if a carry takes a 6th item over a TP, they will likely have done the same thing even if the guide had BoTs as a situational item in, for example, an all-in scenario. its an individual and contextual game choice that is difficult to express in a guide. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
But since he's already not doing that, whatever. | ||
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