EPTOn December 26 2014 10:06 Belisarius wrote:
Yeah, look, honestly, both wards and courier are essential at the start of the game. I get really annoyed at pub supports who buy courier and then decide their team can play blind because they need their gauntlet of strength.
If you find yourself playing a1p4 pub support, too bad, in 90% of cases you should suck it up and buy both. Even if there are two supports, you're sometimes going to do better if one buys obs+cour and the other gets either sents/smoke or a boots start.
About the only case where a solo support really can't afford both is when they need a ton of consumables to outtrade specific offlaners.
Yeah, look, honestly, both wards and courier are essential at the start of the game. I get really annoyed at pub supports who buy courier and then decide their team can play blind because they need their gauntlet of strength.
If you find yourself playing a1p4 pub support, too bad, in 90% of cases you should suck it up and buy both. Even if there are two supports, you're sometimes going to do better if one buys obs+cour and the other gets either sents/smoke or a boots start.
About the only case where a solo support really can't afford both is when they need a ton of consumables to outtrade specific offlaners.
I don't really want to force that on supports to be honest. I get that it can be annoying, but at the same time, completely closing out someone's starting items to just utility items is typically unrealistic to expect in public players.
It also doesn't force teamplay and cooperation in addition to buying both cour and wards does not necessarily mean buying sents and smoke (which I have never seen done in any games at my level for instance)
On December 26 2014 10:51 Belisarius wrote:
I feel a lot of your lane carries (eg. PL, weaver, naga, antimage) don't start with enough regen. I really don't think you can plan for trilanes at the level these guides are directed at, and 1-regen starts are really greedy in 2v2s. If you have less than tango+salve, even relatively strong laners can be pushed out by way too many offensive duals, and then you're screwed.
For PL, you seem to drop a salve for 2x clarity. I don't really like that. Clarities are problematic on carries because unless the enemies are completely unable to approach the creepwave, you have to give up a ton of cs to keep them from being cancelled. You really only want them if you have a very strong kill lane and can feed off someone and clarity while they're dead/backing.
Even very strong laners like weaver can use extra regen to trade aggressively if they don't need it to stay alive. Weaver has a ton of basedamage so really doesn't need the slipper, especially when he can get that from sideshop.
Naga and antimage are currently going for stout+qb+tango starts, which I consider greedy. Especially for AM, the salve often makes the difference between making it to RoH and having to back.
imo, about the only heroes who really don't need 2x regen in pubs are those who can't use it to trade but do have some kind of built-in sustain, like DK or lifestealer.
Items for your mids are a lot harder to cookie-cutter because it depends so much on matchups. In general, since your subscribers are going to be bad at lasthitting I think it's dangerous to do 1-regen starts unless those heroes are bottle-rushing (tango+3gg).
Kka and ember, for example, get tango+stout+3gg, which I really think leaves them at risk of being harassed down before they get enough cs for bottle. I would suggest either tango+3gg or tango+salve+stout+2gg on most melees, depending on how urgently they want mana sustain.
Your ranged mids seem to be generally getting salve+tango+3-4ggs, which I think is great. I'm not sure I'd call it standard but it's definitely pub-safe, and that's exactly what I'd aim for here. Although puck gets tango+salve and no ggs, and I've never seen that in my life.
idk maybe there was a discussion about all this that I missed.
I feel a lot of your lane carries (eg. PL, weaver, naga, antimage) don't start with enough regen. I really don't think you can plan for trilanes at the level these guides are directed at, and 1-regen starts are really greedy in 2v2s. If you have less than tango+salve, even relatively strong laners can be pushed out by way too many offensive duals, and then you're screwed.
For PL, you seem to drop a salve for 2x clarity. I don't really like that. Clarities are problematic on carries because unless the enemies are completely unable to approach the creepwave, you have to give up a ton of cs to keep them from being cancelled. You really only want them if you have a very strong kill lane and can feed off someone and clarity while they're dead/backing.
Even very strong laners like weaver can use extra regen to trade aggressively if they don't need it to stay alive. Weaver has a ton of basedamage so really doesn't need the slipper, especially when he can get that from sideshop.
Naga and antimage are currently going for stout+qb+tango starts, which I consider greedy. Especially for AM, the salve often makes the difference between making it to RoH and having to back.
imo, about the only heroes who really don't need 2x regen in pubs are those who can't use it to trade but do have some kind of built-in sustain, like DK or lifestealer.
Items for your mids are a lot harder to cookie-cutter because it depends so much on matchups. In general, since your subscribers are going to be bad at lasthitting I think it's dangerous to do 1-regen starts unless those heroes are bottle-rushing (tango+3gg).
Kka and ember, for example, get tango+stout+3gg, which I really think leaves them at risk of being harassed down before they get enough cs for bottle. I would suggest either tango+3gg or tango+salve+stout+2gg on most melees, depending on how urgently they want mana sustain.
Your ranged mids seem to be generally getting salve+tango+3-4ggs, which I think is great. I'm not sure I'd call it standard but it's definitely pub-safe, and that's exactly what I'd aim for here. Although puck gets tango+salve and no ggs, and I've never seen that in my life.
idk maybe there was a discussion about all this that I missed.
As you can see, the starting items for many heroes is so variably changing and dependent on your match-up that it makes it a bit difficult to vary them accordingly.
I think most Mid heroes in these builds are bottle rushing.
I can fix up the starting items, but to be honest, it's a little too particular to overhaul them all. I don't find some of them to be too greedy, but for offlaners I think I will add more regen as it often ends up being solo. So you are right in many ways.
It's something I will have to continually check as I update the guides, similar to the descriptions now.
On December 26 2014 10:51 Belisarius wrote:
Some other things:
Personally, I think BoTs should be extension on almost every carry.
PLs items are weird. Manta is situational at best on new PL, and BKB and basher should be at least situational, possibly core. Satanic should be in extension; it's better than heart now that it stacks with diffu.
I don't like dusa much at all. I can see what you're trying to do with the core ulti-orb, but way too many people are going to see yasha+orb and finish manta rather than go yasha+skadi, and manta-first dusa is terrible.
I also think you should consider "defensive" and "offensive" tabs instead of "both" (what does that even mean?) and "extension". Dusa makes most of her post-core item choices based on whether she needs damage or tank, and she can get away with almost any specific items so long as she's making that choice right.
I would do something like:
defensive: skadi, linkens, satanic, sheep
offensive: bfly, mjoll, divine, manta, daedalus
and put drums, bkb, mkb and maybe a farming mael in situational.
Some other things:
Personally, I think BoTs should be extension on almost every carry.
PLs items are weird. Manta is situational at best on new PL, and BKB and basher should be at least situational, possibly core. Satanic should be in extension; it's better than heart now that it stacks with diffu.
I don't like dusa much at all. I can see what you're trying to do with the core ulti-orb, but way too many people are going to see yasha+orb and finish manta rather than go yasha+skadi, and manta-first dusa is terrible.
I also think you should consider "defensive" and "offensive" tabs instead of "both" (what does that even mean?) and "extension". Dusa makes most of her post-core item choices based on whether she needs damage or tank, and she can get away with almost any specific items so long as she's making that choice right.
I would do something like:
defensive: skadi, linkens, satanic, sheep
offensive: bfly, mjoll, divine, manta, daedalus
and put drums, bkb, mkb and maybe a farming mael in situational.
1. Boots of Travel eventually becomes worthwhile for all heroes. I think I have Boots of Travel on a few heroes, but I don't want to make it universally on all heroes. It's similar to ghost scepter in the sense that a lot of supports can take advantage of it. I will add Boots of Travel to Heroes that can split-push/solo-push because they can take advantage of it (i.e Spectre, Terrorblade, etc.) Where Boots of Travel works with their abilities/ultimate.
2. I removed Basher/Abyssal. Are we sure we want to put it back on? Manta Style is still heavily used and so is Heart overall
3. Medusa: I will have to rename that ulti-orb thing. But I can't force people to change buy Manta Style and skip the order in the guide. Your suggestion is overwhelming with items that would be difficult for newcomers to distinguish. When should they buy Linken's, when should they buy Satanic, Sheepstick, etc. You very clearly needed Skadi/Linken's before Sheep or Satanic in the majority of cases.
On December 26 2014 14:13 tehh4ck3r wrote:
Your lane Eearth Spirit guide doesn't have him getting his roll until level 8, which is a big mistake IMO. you need roll to initiate properly, and it gives him an escape mechanism in case of emergencies. you're sacrificing his only way of initiating at early levels for .5 seconds of stun which is not worth it IMO
EDIT: Also I'm not sure how core aghs is on him. aghs gives him a solid disable but the cast range is pretty shitty and veil amps his damage by *so* much (and helps his team out a lot as well)
Your lane Eearth Spirit guide doesn't have him getting his roll until level 8, which is a big mistake IMO. you need roll to initiate properly, and it gives him an escape mechanism in case of emergencies. you're sacrificing his only way of initiating at early levels for .5 seconds of stun which is not worth it IMO
EDIT: Also I'm not sure how core aghs is on him. aghs gives him a solid disable but the cast range is pretty shitty and veil amps his damage by *so* much (and helps his team out a lot as well)
I believe I took the build from the ES TL Strat topic. I will fix that.
Yes, I agree with Aghs not necessarily core, so I will move that too. Veil as well, you are right
On December 26 2014 11:47 TheYango wrote:
Agree somewhat, though I think Satanic/Bfly should be in their own category since they both just fundamentally scale off having high damage/EHP already and should be considered later rather than earlier.
Agree somewhat, though I think Satanic/Bfly should be in their own category since they both just fundamentally scale off having high damage/EHP already and should be considered later rather than earlier.
We'll make a "luxury" tab for them. A rarity to return to that old tab. We'll rearrange Medusa, but I still want to make Linken's/Skadi a priority before other items.
I think you guys assume how aggressive lanes can be. If there's a trilane that can secure kills, that will happen a lot. But for typical 2v2 in the safe lane (not offlane), the aggression is relatively small and unhappening. It's why there isn't an uproar for more regen because most teams don't do anything until someone starts ganking/can secure a kill or their hero is specifically made to harass during the laning phase (e.g Lich)
