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On April 07 2013 11:21 Belial88 wrote:Rabiddeer you are so off lol. PSU companies arbitrarily pick values for wattage, and companies assume you are using a piece of crap dell OEM psu, not a high quality psu. Even though, say, a rosewill capstone 450w is only rated for 450w, it will be able to power way more than what a 700w Coolermaster PSU can do. One company will sell a set of components that make up a PSU as 400w, another will say it's 700w. It's a totally arbitrary value. How many times does it have to be repeated, Quality >>>>>>>>>>>>> Quantity. Guru3d also assumes you are using a dud psu, instead of assuming everyone is using seasonic or superflower based power supplies. Any single GPU systes will use less than 300w, as in a 350w or 400w PSU is overkill even if it's heavily overclocked cpu+gpu, tons of fans and peripherals (slight exception maybe for something like bulldozer+fermi). 400w is enough for SLI/Crossfire for most cards these days. Show nested quote +EDIT: I must misunderstand total wattage on PSU's
DVD drive will use some of that? Yes?
# of HDD's/SSD's?
Audio equipment/cards?
Case fans + LED's?
6 case fans + LED's, a BD-R, a DVD-R, audio card, 2-3HDD + SSD will draw more power from the PSU... right? Also, 6 USB's (keyboard/mouse/wireless card/headphones/controller/etc) will also use some of that power too, right? Or would something else stop working due to insufficient power first?
I still cant find a reason that the GPU would work in another system, but not this system when plugged in if not for insufficient power. DVD uses a very small amount of power (is he even using one? and it's not 'on' 24/7 anyways), hdd/ssd i believe runs more off other rails, i don't know what you mean by audio equipment, that's part of the motherboard and that's consuming a fraction of an amp, case fans and led's generally consume less than 4w (the exception being an extremely high quality, high power fan like a delta which is like a jet engine and is like $100?). 6 usb devices consume barely any power at all. All the stuff you mention all together would be hard pressed to consume more than 40w with all of them maxed out completely. If the issue was the power supply was too weak, then it wouldn't simply be that the system won't turn on with the GPU plugged in (gee, you add a GPU and system doesn't work, what could it be.... what could be the most obvious answer?). The system would boot up but you'd have instability on heavy loads. And for a single GPU system, especially an intel based system like he said, he'd be hard pressed to go above 300w ever (and idle/low load/boot power consumption is wayyyyyyyy lower than full load on everything, even gaming you won't push full load on everything). Not to mentoin he has a pc power and cooling silencer which should be good to power much more than just 400w.
While I am not the most knowledgeable about PSU's, I still maintain that it is the PSU. He says (and I have mentioned this too) that his 12v rail only has 30a but most sources say you need 35-40 for the 5830.
http://forums.pureoverclock.com/graphics-cards/11999-gpu-power-requirements.html
I dont understand why you would ever go the bare minimum for a PSU anyway. Keeping it in the ~50% range is ideal for longevity + efficiency, no?
EDIT: I agree it could be something else, but we dont have too much information. Does it POST? Does it turn on at all?
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That's a useless figure, and like has been said already, it's based on the assumption that you have a dell OEM psu, not a seasonic.
http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/ati_radeon_hd_5830,11.html
You aren't going the bare minimum when you pick a lower wattage, higher quality model, you are actually going bare minimum if you go just by wattage ie quantity. As I've said, quality >>>> quantity. It would be MUCH better to use a 400w Superflower like a rosewill capstone 450w than a 700 coolermaster or even lower end seasonic s12iiB 620w. It has nothing to do with wattage, amperage, going the 'bare minimum' would be doing something like getting the CX600 which has 12v@46A instead of a silencer mk3 400w 12v@30A yet has superior quality. The CX600 will blow out on you when your LED goes out (as most do), while the silencer will keep running.
As for where you want to keep a PSU, they perform best around 70-80% actually, and there are certain benefits to running wayyy below their rating at only like 20-50%, but that extra cost makes that completely not worth it.
I totally agree that you want a good PSU, but wattage is a completely meaningless figure. You pick a PSU based on quality, not wattage. It's such an arbitrary value that has no meaning at all and modern computer components use very little power. The overwhelming majority of people get complete overkill in PSU (as in stupidly beyond what is more than enough headroom and 'just in case').
Now there aren't really many high quality PSUs rated at below 500w, but something like the Silencer MK3 400w, at the price it and other PSUs are going for right now, it's actually, in my opinion, the best power supply still in production for the money (you just need to buy an extra PCI-E cable for $9 from OCZ/PCP&P, it has the modular port for it it just doesnt' come with that extension cable and they refuse to give you one for free), is quite high quality, and will power any modern single GPU system with tons of headroom and plenty of protections and efficiencies in place (and will even power many modern sli/crossfire set-ups).
A much better choice than the CX600 or CX700 that could be had, the Thermaltake TR2-700w, and a few other 500-800w PSUs out there for the same price.
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I can't find the windows toll free support number.
@mav
those charts were very nice, thank you.
@ belial
yup, PSU quality > quantity. loud and clear.
"And make sure your bios settings are correct. Set your pci express slot to gen 2. "
Now that's something concrete that I can try.
I really hope my GPU didn't die. I tested it on my other computer, and I did run into a problem where the screen freezes when i make the first unit in an SC2 match. It actually might be damaged... sigh.
But I need to rule out the CMOS settings first. Maybe then the card will still have problems and then I will know for sure.
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On April 07 2013 14:23 Belial88 wrote:That's a useless figure, and like has been said already, it's based on the assumption that you have a dell OEM psu, not a seasonic. http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/ati_radeon_hd_5830,11.htmlYou aren't going the bare minimum when you pick a lower wattage, higher quality model, you are actually going bare minimum if you go just by wattage ie quantity. As I've said, quality >>>> quantity. It would be MUCH better to use a 400w Superflower like a rosewill capstone 450w than a 700 coolermaster or even lower end seasonic s12iiB 620w. It has nothing to do with wattage, amperage, going the 'bare minimum' would be doing something like getting the CX600 which has 12v@46A instead of a silencer mk3 400w 12v@30A yet has superior quality. The CX600 will blow out on you when your LED goes out (as most do), while the silencer will keep running. As for where you want to keep a PSU, they perform best around 70-80% actually, and there are certain benefits to running wayyy below their rating at only like 20-50%, but that extra cost makes that completely not worth it. I totally agree that you want a good PSU, but wattage is a completely meaningless figure. You pick a PSU based on quality, not wattage. It's such an arbitrary value that has no meaning at all and modern computer components use very little power. The overwhelming majority of people get complete overkill in PSU (as in stupidly beyond what is more than enough headroom and 'just in case'). Now there aren't really many high quality PSUs rated at below 500w, but something like the Silencer MK3 400w, at the price it and other PSUs are going for right now, it's actually, in my opinion, the best power supply still in production for the money (you just need to buy an extra PCI-E cable for $9 from OCZ/PCP&P, it has the modular port for it it just doesnt' come with that extension cable and they refuse to give you one for free), is quite high quality, and will power any modern single GPU system with tons of headroom and plenty of protections and efficiencies in place (and will even power many modern sli/crossfire set-ups). A much better choice than the CX600 or CX700 that could be had, the Thermaltake TR2-700w, and a few other 500-800w PSUs out there for the same price.
I have always understood that quality > quantity (it's why I have my seasonic), but I still thought that when specs say you need 500w or 40a that you would need those. I guess not. Seems a very strange concept to me.
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Actually, most Dell OEM (and other big-brand OEM) PSUs are not that bad; most do rated power.
Also, I still have no idea how an LED failing causes a power supply to die. As in, I'm almost positive that it's a coincidence or that A caused both B and C rather than B causing C (or some other explanation).
btw HD 5830 power consumption is here, if you want to see more reliable figures isolated from system:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/xfx-radeon-hd5830_4.html#sect0
again, on startup, power draw is much under a heavy gaming load. Those recommendations you see are manufacturers wanting to pass the buck to somebody else. It's not like they have any idea what the rest of your computer is. Better to recommend overkill in case somebody's using a POS that can't do as advertised.
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On April 07 2013 14:48 TheRabidDeer wrote:
I have always understood that quality > quantity (it's why I have my seasonic), but I still thought that when specs say you need 500w or 40a that you would need those. I guess not. Seems a very strange concept to me.
If you test something to be able to do 550W, call it 500W for reliability and ratings. Over-deliver and have a margin of safety.
If you test something to be able to do 550W, make two products called 400W and 500W - you over-deliver on one, and save development costs. It makes sense if downgrading parts for the lower rated model yields minimal savings, in which case the cost of labor to make a new model and the value of the time-to-market is more valuable than the relatively tiny savings from components. It keeps things simple which is not to be underestimated.
If you test something to be able to do 550W average, but can peak 600W for a short time, put a 600W label on it anyway and hope to make some short term sales at the sacrifice of the brand. Increasing quality may be too costly because of poor execution or expertise. Make some money, recover your costs, move onto the next product.
ratings & marketing 
It's a pain to figure out all the labeling and confusion in the free market (as opposed to a forced labeling convention), but there are always competitors willing to ensure good quality among those that will hype things up without backing it. They always have huge payoffs with good execution, which is the incentive to provide quality products (mobile phone industry for example). It also allows those willing to do that to enter faster and compete, compared to having a government regulation stifling everything, increasing the barrier to entry, preventing changes the market demands, etc.
It's harder for everyone to learn, but that's precisely a business opportunity in products that have a high cost of familiarizing. Ratings agencies, reviewers and critics, and independent safety agencies can provide simplification, safety, and reviews much better and adaptive service than government would ever be able to for any sustained period of time. How do they make money? Various creative business models have arose from pure human creativity and desire for profit. Ad space has made so many valuable services that were inviable before the internet now viable. As much of a pain it is to hash through all the info, I say long live capitalism!
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I can't find the windows toll free support number.
i think you said you were doing windows 7? In which case there is no number, it's a windows 8 activation thing.
I really hope my GPU didn't die. I tested it on my other computer, and I did run into a problem where the screen freezes when i make the first unit in an SC2 match. It actually might be damaged... sigh.
I've had hardware that worked perfectly fine, fail when different hardware was put in. Either it was never fully right to begin with or just extreme coincidence, I don't know.
Just see if anyone else has an issue with the board you have and the gpu you have. As for the ud3h i think the only setting in bios is the gen1/2/3 thing but on auto it should be selecting the right value... i suppose just make sure it's not on gen1 really.
but I still thought that when specs say you need 500w or 40a that you would need those. I guess not. Seems a very strange concept to me.
Right, you don't need those. Specs like that are usually useless.
It's harder for everyone to learn, but that's precisely a business opportunity in products that have a high cost of familiarizing. Ratings agencies, reviewers and critics, and independent safety agencies can provide simplification, safety, and reviews much better and adaptive service than government would ever be able to for any sustained period of time. How do they make money? Various creative business models have arose from pure human creativity and desire for profit. Ad space has made so many valuable services that were inviable before the internet now viable. As much of a pain it is to hash through all the info, I say long live capitalism!
Because the average enthusiast will not understand it if the PSU companies actually gave out accurate information. It's not like a certain capacitor or PCB is just magically able to do exactly 401w, there's different components that all add up to a big picture with power supplies. The most that they could really do to be accurate is list every single component they use, which would just confuse most people, and most people wouldn't care.
And it's not some magical 'it can or can't do 700w' - one power supply might do 700w just fine, but if you go from low load to stress testing both cpu and gpu at the same second, from 50w to 700w in half a millisecond, it'll blow out. So it's a mixture of it being quite gray on what qualifies (and what can do 700w at 30*C may only do 650w on 35*C), and what the average user needs to know.
Now I would love it if they told us exactly what mosfets they used, what coils they used, what resistors, traces, pcb, caps, drivers, etc they used, but the overwhelming majority of enthusiasts would find it confusing and not care.
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Even if they gave you the parts list (and it's not like they use the exact same parts or even the same model parts for every sample) and a diagram of the circuit, it's not like anybody would have a good handle on what's going on, especially in terms of performance. For reliability, a problem is often from a bad batch of a certain part, or some model being mysteriously bad even if it looks good on paper, sloppy manufacturing on a specific PCB or connection, something getting loose or weaker from transit, whatever.
I mean, you'd be able to see that some "700W" power supply has +12V rectifiers that could do about 450W total at a certain temperature and clearly that's not enough, but that's only an issue with the really cheap stuff.
Not only would most people not care, but most of those who do care may be liable to misinterpret the information or at best, not really have accurate knowledge of what the ramifications are. Sometimes that off-brand Chinese cap is really reliable, and you wouldn't know unless you were testing batches and batches of them. It'd be really hard to estimate temperatures at different parts internally in the power supply just by visual inspection. etc.
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On April 07 2013 14:55 Myrmidon wrote:Actually, most Dell OEM (and other big-brand OEM) PSUs are not that bad; most do rated power. Also, I still have no idea how an LED failing causes a power supply to die. As in, I'm almost positive that it's a coincidence or that A caused both B and C rather than B causing C (or some other explanation). btw HD 5830 power consumption is here, if you want to see more reliable figures isolated from system: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/xfx-radeon-hd5830_4.html#sect0again, on startup, power draw is much under a heavy gaming load. Those recommendations you see are manufacturers wanting to pass the buck to somebody else. It's not like they have any idea what the rest of your computer is. Better to recommend overkill in case somebody's using a POS that can't do as advertised.
I hope the load power of 125w satisfies you deer.
"... we get 223 if your system is similar."
That was pretty close considering this:
![[image loading]](http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/cpu/core-i5-ivy-bridge/power-3.png)
So 126*0.85(assume 85% efficient PSU) + 125w = 232W with 3570k (artificial max load) & system + 5830 (gaming load).
Efficiency is usually highest at about 50%, and you don't normally run at 100% load on both cpu and gpu, especially if you have a framerate limiter, so 400w or less is a good suggestion.
EDIT: whoops that's system wall draw, edited figures.
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You simply tell them it's the first system, the original system, that it's the same PC. It's an automated question thing that'll ask. It's pretty simple to migrate a system over, although everyone will recommend you do a fresh install.
how do i do a fresh install without tripping the license? On top of that, I don't have the installation/image file and can't get it anymore. Is my only option migration then? Migration is straight up duplicating all the data onto the SSD?
Should I migrate before I get windows activation support, or does the order not matter?
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On April 07 2013 17:09 waffling1 wrote:Show nested quote +You simply tell them it's the first system, the original system, that it's the same PC. It's an automated question thing that'll ask. It's pretty simple to migrate a system over, although everyone will recommend you do a fresh install. how do i do a fresh install without tripping the license? On top of that, I don't have the installation/image file and can't get it anymore. Is my only option migration then? Migration is straight up duplicating all the data onto the SSD? Should I migrate before I get windows activation support, or does the order not matter?
You can download the installation isos legally and burn them to cd if you want.
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Microsoft only provides downloads of the installation disk image for people with an MSDN subscription, I'm pretty sure. I torrented a Windows DVD iso image from thepiratebay.org and put the contents on a USB stick. Do the download and prepare the USB stick on your current Windows on your HDD, then pull the cables for the HDD and only have the SSD connected while you install Windows with your product key. I don't see what could go wrong as you don't have to touch your old HDD and can always go back the Windows installation on that drive.
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On April 07 2013 17:29 Ropid wrote:
Microsoft only provides downloads of the installation disk image for people with an MSDN subscription, I'm pretty sure. I torrented a Windows DVD iso image from thepiratebay.org and put the contents on a USB stick. Do the download and prepare the USB stick on your current Windows on your HDD, then pull the cables for the HDD and only have the SSD connected while you install Windows with your product key. I don't see what could go wrong as you don't have to touch your old HDD and can always go back the Windows installation on that drive.
and then i apply the license i bought, and if it gives me trouble, i call up the windows rep, letting her know my mobo died and it's the same computer?
(lol idk why i assumed it's a "her")
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My Blizzard account got hacked. I live in Slovenia so should I be calling the office located in Britain or is there an international number I could call?
Thanks and please hurry up !
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On April 07 2013 14:36 waffling1 wrote:I can't find the windows toll free support number. @mav those charts were very nice, thank you. @ belial yup, PSU quality > quantity. loud and clear. Show nested quote +"And make sure your bios settings are correct. Set your pci express slot to gen 2. " Now that's something concrete that I can try. I really hope my GPU didn't die. I tested it on my other computer, and I did run into a problem where the screen freezes when i make the first unit in an SC2 match. It actually might be damaged... sigh. But I need to rule out the CMOS settings first. Maybe then the card will still have problems and then I will know for sure.
This needs to be verified before we discuss further. If the card doesn't even work in another box, then it may well be a GPU-issue. (And what a time to upgrade  Like I said, the 5830 was just not an power-efficient card in the 58XX series line-up)
*Another thought - is it still under warranty? It's a 2010 part, so it may be running really close, depending on when you bought it. You can use the Ivybridge IGP in the mean-time.
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He said it worked in his old computer, but I suppose it's possible it got fucked between them.
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I have a desktop I made myself a few years ago that I'd like to buy some new RAM for. Is it advisable to buy two sticks of dual channel RAM that run at a higher speed than the RAM I already have and use the old and new RAM concurrently, or should I just swap out the new for the old? I mean, I have two empty slots, but I'm not sure if the difference in speed would have any effects.
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EPT
