When using this resource, please read FragKrag's opening post. The Tech Support forum regulars have helped create countless of desktop systems without any compensation. The least you can do is provide all of the information required for them to help you properly.
If you could get it for $35 that would be a great price for it.
Maybe 20-25% is a slight understatement - but we're talking an £11 difference between 212 evo and hr-02 macho and the hr-02 is significantly stronger and quieter at the same time. Probably not the best buy for a 4.4ghz build not concerned with noise, but it's an awesome cooler, mini nhd14.
If it means raising the ceiling on your overclock by 200-400mhz with similar temperatures, and it would for most chips, we're talking £11 for a 5-10% increase in minimum and lategame average FPS in sc2 and the same margins in most CPU limited tasks, which is kind of a no brainer. I mean it's entire system performance, i run with a gtx260 and it does not limit me in anything i do, i play sc2 at 400fps early game, max LoL at 150-200fps when nothing is happening, i usually play on what other people would call "bad" graphics for increased visibility and clarity (maxed textures etc) but i really dont hit GPU limits, so CPU is literally the entire system performance in most cases, though other people might not put that much value into it, but its always quite core to everything. Cooling is probably not too important though for somebody either not trying to push for that 5-10% and it might not be of much use if your chip is bad in terms of voltage requirements (cant go past 4.5, 4.6ghz easily) but it seems like a genuinely useful and great cooler. For one like mine, which im almost certain can do 4.9 at around 1.32v or slightly above (passed superpi 32m at 1.27, small ibt runs at 1.29) you are looking at what, the 212 evo at £27, hr-02 macho at £37, NH-D14 at £65?
Maybe there's a better price: performance offering, but hr-02 macho seems like the obvious choice here unless you are pushing for every degree and dont mind paying for it. It runs very close to the nh-d14
Hey again, After getting your opinions, I came up with this build, and would like a second opinion (or more), if possible. http://pcpartpicker.com/p/KpGy Thanks again.
Get a dual channel RAM kit. 2x4gb 1600mhz cl9 1.5v is a good baseline but 1.65v and slightly changed frequency/timings is ok.
I would really say stay away from asrock z77 boards for overclocking, quite a few people a lot more knowledgeable people have said that - for consistency, if nothing else. Using a decent level of LLC they supply ~0.05-0.15v more than they report for CPU vcore and they are of questionable quality
Changed the motherboard to a much more reliable overclocking board, and overall better quality. Asrock boards tend to severely misrepresent the actual vcore and their MOSFETs are generally horrible quality.
Also changed your RAM to a 2 x 4gb ram to take advantage of dual channel memory.
As for the HDDs, I changed to have a smaller SSD but added a 1 TB WD Black drive. This part here is honestly up to you considering that if you only get 256gb of SSD space, its going to fill up really quickly in my opinion, but that's just me.
On March 18 2013 10:19 Cyro wrote: Get a dual channel RAM kit. 2x4gb 1600mhz cl9 1.5v is a good baseline but 1.65v and slightly changed frequency/timings is ok.
I would really say stay away from asrock z77 boards for overclocking, quite a few people a lot more knowledgeable people have said that - for consistency, if nothing else. Using a decent level of LLC they supply ~0.05-0.15v more than they report for CPU vcore and they are of questionable quality
Yeah I read through Belial's OCN thread (linked in one of the other threads). Another OCN member, Sin0822 created this VRM list. + Show Spoiler +
I'm fairly certain now that it's a problem with my video driver or my openGL driver. I'm not concerned with hardware damage and it doesn't seem that the crashes are/would damage anything. Thanks for all the help guys!
By necessity the rating system on that chart is pretty simplistic. There's a 1 for using an AP73T03, because the MOSFET happens to only come in D-PAK (TO-252), the 3-legged thing. Depending, it could be better to have more lower-spec parts rather than fewer higher-spec parts. Do all parts that come in packages with 4 legs perform better? These things have 3 actual terminals and the base itself is used as one; extra legs means more legs connected to the same thing.
The key parameter for the low-side MOSFET of a synchronous buck converter is the R_DS(on), which is the effective (unwanted) resistance when switched on and conducting. Higher resistance means more power loss and more heat. The AP73T03 in the Extreme4 gets around 6.3 mOhm in the same situation the PH5030AL that gets a 2 score has around 4.8 mOhm. Maybe not a drastic difference.
That said, lower VRM parts and board quality are of course part of the reasons how AsRock is managing to provide lower prices than competitors. And often, given low power consumption of Ivy Bridge, it's not exactly an issue.
I was perfectly happy with an ASRock Z77 Pro4-M until I tried to push it with the overclocking. The Pro4-M was the cheapest motherboard I could find, the price was about half of the Extreme4. It was fine with 4.3 GHz or something like that. I found out that the board's VRM protection went off with what my CPU needed for 4.5 to 4.6 GHz. As the Extreme4 is much pricier (and the VRM area looks pretty different on pictures), I'd expect it to work much better in that regard.
Other than that VRM heat problem, the board was perfectly fine, the BIOS was okay and booting fast, all Windows drivers were stable, etc. With Gigabyte, I feel I had problems with iffy stability. My Gigabyte mobo uses VIA and Qualcomm for audio and networking instead of Realtek like everyone else, so has to use different drivers. I'm perhaps imagining things as I tried different BIOS beta versions, drivers, and perhaps set not-really-stable vcore when overclocking.
On March 18 2013 11:54 Myrmidon wrote: By necessity the rating system on that chart is pretty simplistic. There's a 1 for using an AP73T03, because the MOSFET happens to only come in D-PAK (TO-252), the 3-legged thing. Depending, it could be better to have more lower-spec parts rather than fewer higher-spec parts. Do all parts that come in packages with 4 legs perform better? These things have 3 actual terminals and the base itself is used as one; extra legs means more legs connected to the same thing.
The key parameter for the low-side MOSFET of a synchronous buck converter is the R_DS(on), which is the effective (unwanted) resistance when switched on and conducting. Higher resistance means more power loss and more heat. The AP73T03 in the Extreme4 gets around 6.3 mOhm in the same situation the PH5030AL that gets a 2 score has around 4.8 mOhm. Maybe not a drastic difference.
That said, lower VRM parts and board quality are of course part of the reasons how AsRock is managing to provide lower prices than competitors. And often, given low power consumption of Ivy Bridge, it's not exactly an issue.
Right, Sin does clarify that on the source link I provided. If you click-through and thoroughly read his explanation, it makes sense why he provides cost-ratings as the basic metric.
In the end you find out that certain MOSFETs such as all the D-PAK MOSFETs are just super crap and super cheap, and that DirectFETs and high current power stages like 60A PowIRstage are super nice and super expensive as well.
Thus if we only priced on performance of each component, the quantity of the component used would require its own score, as well as confuse everyone and enrage a lot of debate. Price becomes something that can represent cost as well as performance to a certain extent without bothering too many people.
I just watched a few of his mosfet vids on Youtube after MLG finished. It's clear that not all mosfets are equal to others. I just watched this one earlier tonight. His reactions are pretty hilarious :p
@Kinaesthetic Thanks for the recommendations. May I also ask if DDR3-1866 versus 1600 or 1333 makes much of a difference? I saw that the prices on these vary quite a bit.
1600mhz cl9 vs 2133mhz cl9 is like a 5% performance gain in some cases - but most RAM at higher frequencies has looser timings (ie cl10, cl11), which cuts massively into that performance advantage.
Basic rule, 1333mhz for really cheap RAM, 1600 cl9 or something close for most uses.
Hello TL's precious computer gurus. Here's my inquiry:
My brother is wanting to assemble a beastly computer to make his work flow better.
My answers to OP questions:
What is your budget? It would be at most 17000 HRK, which would translate to around 2900 USD.
I assume the prices are higher here in Croatia, and it would be ideal (but probably too much to ask) if someone here could take a look at the website www.protis.hr and choose the components from there. (using google translate should make it acceptable to navigate)
What is your resolution? 1920x1200
What are you using it for? Video editing, using Adobe Premiere and After Effects, loading and working with multiple HD recordings at a time, often with different frame-rates etc
What is your upgrade cycle? I guess 1-2 years?
I think he would like to get a great computer now and not have to worry about it anymore for some time. But of course, if a new component that does a big difference comes out, he would get it....
When do you plan on building it? He'd like to buy it tomorrow.
Do you plan on overclocking? Not at the moment, but if you strongly advise it's a good decision, then I will look into it. (not enough experience here)
Do you need an Operating System? No
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? If it's great for performance then yes, please advise it.
-- Some notes: -> he has the option of buying Nvidia's Quadro 4000 graphics card for ~4500 HRK (~770 USD) from one person, so, not on www.protis.hr (it's not available there). What do you think about that card, should he get it? -> he doesn't need to buy a monitor -> he said he'd like to have 32GB of RAM.
In advance, thank you so much for reading and helping.
How much storage does he need? Does he already have hard drives? He's working with raw video probably, right?
Depending on the kind of Premiere Pro usage, the Quadro 4000 for 4500 HRK could be worth it on that budget.
He already has a 2 Terabyte External HDD (not sure about the model), and one 250 GB internal SSD (model: AGT3-25SAT3-240G).
He doesn't need more space than that when it comes to actual work, but he would like to have a backup-HDD-system in place, so if you can recommend a good way of handling it?
Hello TL's precious computer gurus. Here's my inquiry:
My brother is wanting to assemble a beastly computer to make his work flow better.
My answers to OP questions:
What is your budget? It would be at most 17000 HRK, which would translate to around 2900 USD.
I assume the prices are higher here in Croatia, and it would be ideal (but probably too much to ask) if someone here could take a look at the website www.protis.hr and choose the components from there. (using google translate should make it acceptable to navigate)
What is your resolution? 1920x1200
What are you using it for? Video editing, using Adobe Premiere and After Effects, loading and working with multiple HD recordings at a time, often with different frame-rates etc
What is your upgrade cycle? I guess 1-2 years?
I think he would like to get a great computer now and not have to worry about it anymore for some time. But of course, if a new component that does a big difference comes out, he would get it....
When do you plan on building it? He'd like to buy it tomorrow.
Do you plan on overclocking? Not at the moment, but if you strongly advise it's a good decision, then I will look into it. (not enough experience here)
Do you need an Operating System? No
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? If it's great for performance then yes, please advise it.
-- Some notes: -> he has the option of buying Nvidia's Quadro 4000 graphics card for ~4500 HRK (~770 USD) from one person, so, not on www.protis.hr (it's not available there). What do you think about that card, should he get it? -> he doesn't need to buy a monitor -> he said he'd like to have 32GB of RAM.
In advance, thank you so much for reading and helping.
How much storage does he need? Does he already have hard drives? He's working with raw video probably, right?
Depending on the kind of Premiere Pro usage, the Quadro 4000 for 4500 HRK could be worth it on that budget.
He already has a 2 Terabyte External HDD (not sure about the model), and one 250 GB internal SSD (model: AGT3-25SAT3-240G).
He doesn't need more space than that when it comes to actual work, but he would like to have a backup-HDD-system in place, so if you can recommend a good way of handling it?
A backup of files or an exact copy of the drive? SyncToy will handle the first and you'll either regular disk images or a second drive in a mirrored configuration for the latter.
If you think about the ways a power supply can fail, what different loads do to a power supply, how it works, and then you think about the difference in electric load between a working LED and a dead LED, the dots just don't connect. This is especially considering the lack of burned stuff, how the LED was plugged into the motherboard yet the motherboard still seems to be fine, and more.
Well maybe there would have been burning if I didn't shut down the system so quickly. The first LED literally was running for 24 hours, overnight, the next day it looked a little funny and before I could put my finger on it I saw it dramatically just dim out in front of me. The second one was bright, then started dimming right in front of me so I shut that down before anything could happen, it started to light up after it went dark but just a bit. Inside it looks like a dead light bulb, you know, burned out wire in it.
There were a ton of issues with the first series of CX specifically with the caps failing, corsair made a statement saying a large number of RMAs were forcing them to relaunch the line-up. Forgot on which forum, I want to say on hard but maybe somewhere else.
Oh the coil whine on the cx500 is terrible. forgot about that. And coil whine can affect electronics, it means it's getting way too hot. It generally seems to happen when your VRM gest to around 90*C+, which is the temperature which PCB sustains browning and long term damage and lower quality caps start to seriously degrade in performance. but this didn't start happening until the derating occurred.
No the problem with my cx500 degrading is more on the bad led shorting out or whatever is going on, but i dont think the cx500 should be dying every time this happens, that's the problem. Not everyone has LED shorts or burn outs but when they do their psu doesnt die.
I was perfectly happy with an ASRock Z77 Pro4-M until I tried to push it with the overclocking. The Pro4-M was the cheapest motherboard I could find, the price was about half of the Extreme4. It was fine with 4.3 GHz or something like that. I found out that the board's VRM protection went off with what my CPU needed for 4.5 to 4.6 GHz. As the Extreme4 is much pricier (and the VRM area looks pretty different on pictures), I'd expect it to work much better in that regard.
That's actually the problem, Asrock uses a doubler so it looks like an impressive 8+2 phase when in reality the mosfets are so low quality that it performs much worse than most 4+1 phases. They are using some really old, outdated mosfets (my biostar a770e3 am3 $30 board had similar quality mosfets). Instead of going for something that works well, like the 4+1 phase on the z77x-ud3h, they went for something that looks good (oh I see 8 phases vs gigabyte and asus 4, it must be a way better board!). The same problem you had with your pro4-m, a lot of people have on the extreme4 and only around 4.5-4.6ghz too. Not everyone lives in a cooler enviromnent or has a fan blowing on the VRM, maybe your ivy takes 1.4v to do just 4.5-4.6ghz (most ivies are bad overclockers), I mean it's not a very hard limit to end up reaching. The problem extends to motherboard degradation, higher vcore, etc, even on lower overclocks, resulting in a board that might be 'good enough' but why would you buy it over the competitor's at an equal cost for higher quality?
Nothing wrong with getting a pro4-m and just getting the cheapest piece of crap you can though, for the cheapest thing you can find the pro4-m isn't the worst actually. I think the pro series, g41/43, and biostar boards might be considerable if you can find them for under $80.
Hello TL's precious computer gurus. Here's my inquiry:
My brother is wanting to assemble a beastly computer to make his work flow better.
My answers to OP questions:
What is your budget? It would be at most 17000 HRK, which would translate to around 2900 USD.
I assume the prices are higher here in Croatia, and it would be ideal (but probably too much to ask) if someone here could take a look at the website www.protis.hr and choose the components from there. (using google translate should make it acceptable to navigate)
What is your resolution? 1920x1200
What are you using it for? Video editing, using Adobe Premiere and After Effects, loading and working with multiple HD recordings at a time, often with different frame-rates etc
What is your upgrade cycle? I guess 1-2 years?
I think he would like to get a great computer now and not have to worry about it anymore for some time. But of course, if a new component that does a big difference comes out, he would get it....
When do you plan on building it? He'd like to buy it tomorrow.
Do you plan on overclocking? Not at the moment, but if you strongly advise it's a good decision, then I will look into it. (not enough experience here)
Do you need an Operating System? No
Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? If it's great for performance then yes, please advise it.
-- Some notes: -> he has the option of buying Nvidia's Quadro 4000 graphics card for ~4500 HRK (~770 USD) from one person, so, not on www.protis.hr (it's not available there). What do you think about that card, should he get it? -> he doesn't need to buy a monitor -> he said he'd like to have 32GB of RAM.
In advance, thank you so much for reading and helping.
How much storage does he need? Does he already have hard drives? He's working with raw video probably, right?
Depending on the kind of Premiere Pro usage, the Quadro 4000 for 4500 HRK could be worth it on that budget.
He already has a 2 Terabyte External HDD (not sure about the model), and one 250 GB internal SSD (model: AGT3-25SAT3-240G).
He doesn't need more space than that when it comes to actual work, but he would like to have a backup-HDD-system in place, so if you can recommend a good way of handling it?
A backup of files or an exact copy of the drive? SyncToy will handle the first and you'll either regular disk images or a second drive in a mirrored configuration for the latter.
Hi, I'm the niteReloaded brother. Hope I'm not violating forum rules by writing from his account. Just backup disk would be good enough for us.
If you have to ask then you wont notice a difference when they are in the system.
The 8gb sticks are cl10 instead of cl9, but allow for expansion past 16gb
More modules = higher chance of failure or problem AFAIK but there's very little chance of having a major issue regardless
i was asking it. cuz as i know, the z77 only suport dual channel?, and the z79 suports quad? am right? so in ur opinion should i get the 4 x 4 ? since there is a little chance for them to fail?
EPT![[image loading]](http://sinhardware.com/images/vrm.jpg)
