EPTComputer Build Resource Thread - Page 1416
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When using this resource, please read FragKrag's opening post. The Tech Support forum regulars have helped create countless of desktop systems without any compensation. The least you can do is provide all of the information required for them to help you properly. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20335 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
For a lesser overclock, just getting components separately (for something with a bit more features and controls for overclocking more and with better efficiency, get something better than MSI Z77A-G43), it's around 3077 rather than 3650: http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=660227 http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=746688 http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=641124 I'd personally buy Intel 520 120GB over Kingston HyperX 3K 120GB, for 10 more. They're both very similar SandForce drives with similar performance, but Intel's firmware probably means higher reliability for their drives. http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=661337 750W is very overkill for the power supply, but its build quality is not really that great. If you're worried about adding a second card, that sucks so don't do it (usually). Even if you did, 650W would be more than enough. For example, that XFX XXX Edition 650W would be superior. I'd just get the Core 450W as a cheap option that's arguably higher quality than the CX750M: better in some ways, definitely worse in others. It's not modular, but how many unused cable strands would you have on a 450W?: http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=657684 I suggest adding aftermarket CPU cooling now rather than later, because it's not worth the effort of working inside the case and removing the stock cooler and paste. Might as well do it to begin with. There isn't that much interesting there, so given prices, might as well get that Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO: http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=657097 | ||
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
what about the case itself? i have never seen it before. any comments on it? | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Core 3000 is a fine choice, especially at that price. You don't find anything else with that kind of build quality, three fans, and a fan controller at that price. Some people might take the similarly-priced Corsair 200R over that though, especially if you want front-panel USB3 (there's a new revision of Core 3000 with the USB3, but that doesn't seem to be it... or they could just be shipping you the new version without having updated the product page). | ||
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
You need a Wi-Fi adapter (network interface / radio) for that. The majority of desktop motherboards don't have one, so you're looking for an add-on card, or something external, like this: http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=593510 | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
Another question. Say the GTX 570 does max at 18.25A. I have four 12V rails with 18A rating each. What would happen if the GPU requests more amperage/current than the PSU can provide? OCP? Meaning the computer would just BSOD or shut off? And could my PSU (the ST75F) provide more than 18A from one rail if it were the only one being used? Like can the 12V1 rail draw more current from the 12V2 or 12V3 rail to bump it up to 20A if it needed to? | ||
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
On March 18 2013 02:44 Myrmidon wrote: Yes and no. The original parts list and my suggestions don't provide Wi-Fi. You need a Wi-Fi adapter (network interface / radio) for that. The majority of desktop motherboards don't have one, so you're looking for an add-on card, or something external, like this: http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.aspx?sku=593510 yes but i can plug in wi fi to the ones you suggested aswell? maybe im just bad and have no clue what im saying right now  (probably the case) | ||
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Craton
United States17289 Posts
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skyR
Canada13817 Posts
On March 18 2013 03:32 hp.Shell wrote: Wow, thanks for all the detailed informative responses guys! Another question. Say the GTX 570 does max at 18.25A. I have four 12V rails with 18A rating each. What would happen if the GPU requests more amperage/current than the PSU can provide? OCP? Meaning the computer would just BSOD or shut off? And could my PSU (the ST75F) provide more than 18A from one rail if it were the only one being used? Like can the 12V1 rail draw more current from the 12V2 or 12V3 rail to bump it up to 20A if it needed to? OCP is overcurrent protection, if the configuration needs more power than the power supply can provide over one rail than it will shut down. As was mentioned before, the 12v rails are split accordingly. The GTX 570 requires two PCIe connectors, generally most manufacturers use a separate 12v rail for each PCIe connector. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [slow responses] + On March 18 2013 03:32 hp.Shell wrote: Wow, thanks for all the detailed informative responses guys! Another question. Say the GTX 570 does max at 18.25A. I have four 12V rails with 18A rating each. What would happen if the GPU requests more amperage/current than the PSU can provide? OCP? Meaning the computer would just BSOD or shut off? And could my PSU (the ST75F) provide more than 18A from one rail if it were the only one being used? Like can the 12V1 rail draw more current from the 12V2 or 12V3 rail to bump it up to 20A if it needed to? The power supply is pretty much a few regulated DC output voltage sources. There are some feedback mechanisms to regulate the output to make sure they stay within allowed ranges, over a wide range of output power levels. Power draw depends on the load, what it's connected to. 18A is just a rating, not some inherent physical limit or calculated property. If the GPU core logic (transistors mostly) are switching so fast and sending enough electrons to different places, then a certain amount of power losses will occur and more power will be drawn from the power supply. It's not a power request. It just physically happens, and it could be drawn past 18A. The electronics may or may not be able to handle a certain load. In this case, they should probably be well able to handle it. One of the protection mechanisms in some power supplies senses if the current for a given rail is beyond a certain point. If it is, then it should shut the power supply down in such a case. If 18A is listed as a rail limit, the protection mechanism might be set to trip at 18A draw. Or—as it often is—it could be set higher, like 25A, to give you some leeway. Who knows. The PCIe power connectors might be connected to different +12V rails (different current sense shunt points), in which case you wouldn't be getting close to 18.25A on one rail. Or not. Check the manual, if you're curious; it might be in there, as Silverstone's docs are usually good. In reality, with a certain workload you can get GTX 570s to draw well over 18.25A on +12V for a brief period. Your symptoms are not anything to do with this. If you draw power from a power supply past what it can handle well, ideally some kind of protection would kick in. Sometimes not, the output voltages start going out of regulation—some significant AC ripple creeps in on the DC outputs, which is bad for the health of some components and maybe stability, or the average voltage dips below some certain amount (or goes too high), which are bad for stability and possibly bad for some components as well. Weird power to electronics can cause weird behavior. Old lower-quality aluminum electrolytic capacitors could have significantly drifted in electric properties from design parameters, affecting circuit performance, for example. I still don't think it's the power supply, but it's never really an impossibility. On March 18 2013 03:50 KapsyL wrote: yes but i can plug in wi fi to the ones you suggested aswell? maybe im just bad and have no clue what im saying right now (probably the case) You can add Wi-Fi capability to any modern (and not-so-modern) desktop system, so yes. The one I linked is just another USB device, nothing special. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
What power supplies, age, model, etc. somehow derating to half? How much load? Ambient temp? How was it confirmed it was the power supply that was the problem? A replacement worked always but the old one worked never, for a certain set of load patterns? Corsair CX500 Bronze, the newer, updated models. Ambient temps, they went out because of a faulty LED (2 totally separate LEDs, 2 totally separate incidents). No load at all, completely idle. I saw the LEDs fail before my eyes. Both of these PSUs had passed more than 30 hours of prime95, GPU tests, PSU tests, et cetera. I didn't make the connection the first time it happened, I rma'd the PSU and that was that. The second time it happened, I knew it was because of a faulty LED (both times it was totally different LEDs, first time an nzxt sleeved 1m led, the other time was a case LED). I mean both times the LEDs failed before my eyes, they just dimmed out, but this time I realized the faulty LED was taking the PSU down with it. Corsair has been wonderful in support the whole time, so I didn't really want to talk about this. A psu shouldn't go out because of an LED failing, but at the same time it's good it didn't take the whole system down with it. The Corsair CX line is a rather low quality line though. I've been able to confirm it's the PSU both times because I have a replacement PSU. I mean this 2nd replacement PSU worked fine until another LED went out. Part bad luck, part bad PSU. edit: I guess it could be the power supply, but that's not the first thing I'd suspect It wasn't the first thing I suspected either. Took me jumping some OEM psu and attaching it just to the 2 x pci-e connectors on my GPU to troubleshoot and realize it was the PSU. But the issue obviously resolved with a replacement PSU, until it de-rated too that is. It only takes about 20 seconds to run a PSU test, so there is no reason not to run it. Driver crashes like the OP is talking about, sound exactly like a failing cap though. Could be anything, definitely, but you should run a PSU test for 30 seconds and hopefully that isn't the issue and you can move on. ok. what would i need instead? say i overclock just a bit? maybe to 4.0? edited away the water part. thanks for the tip. im far from advanced and i dont need a very big overclock. You should definitely overclock to 4.4-5ghz, depending on how good your chip is. If you are going to overclock to just 4, there is no sense buying a K edition CPU, a higher quality motherboard, in fact you might not even need an aftermarket heatsink for just 4 (keep in mind turbo boost is 3.9ghz). How much further you can go depends on the quality of your chip and cooling though. It's very simply to just do a 4.4-4.5ghz overclock. HR-02 is a great cooler, it's basically a high end cooler, but it's designed for being quiet than for performance. Unless it's for an extreme overclock on an HTPC build, I wouldn't really recommend an HR-02 unless it was particularly cheaper than other high end coolers. It's the quietest air heatsink in the world, especially with no fans or just a single fan. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
An LED dying really shouldn't kill a power supply. Most of the times, they fail in ways that don't particularly change too much the electric load they present, just get dimmer or go off. They're more likely to fail as an open circuit than a short circuit. And even if they fail as a "short circuit", it's not going to be like 0 ohms actually, and any LED strip or single LED probably has a resistor somewhere in series to limit the current anyway, so it's not like it's really changing the load on the power supply much by going faulty in any way. Even if you got a failure as a dead short and overdrew the power supply, protections should kick in and shut the thing off. And you'd probably have some hot wires, burning plastic somewhere as a result. (Do you see any? Anything get hot? Did you try disconnecting stuff while troubleshooting, trying the power supplies?) On the other hand, a power supply failing probably shouldn't kill an LED in most circuits and scenarios. Even if the output voltage is way off, it would probably result in enough voltage going around the circuit to get the forward voltage drop and the thing to still light up. A lot of messed-up circuits and parts still have LEDs that light up. Some catastrophic PSU failure shouldn't really knock out the LEDs, though like I said, weird power can cause weird failures. Stuff happens, but it's not really likely. Or the incidents are not really related. Something seems off here, anyway. | ||
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yaeger
Norway98 Posts
Im thinking about buying a new GPU ( got a old gtx 580 now) It kinda stand between ASUS GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX CUDA or Gainward GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX What do you guys think ? Yes iknow they are way overpriced and im mainly using my pc for gaming ( 1920x1080 res) but I dont care about that =) thanks for all the help !  | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
My brother is wanting to assemble a beastly computer to make his work flow better. My answers to OP questions: What is your budget? It would be at most 17000 HRK, which would translate to around 2900 USD. I assume the prices are higher here in Croatia, and it would be ideal (but probably too much to ask) if someone here could take a look at the website www.protis.hr and choose the components from there. (using google translate should make it acceptable to navigate) What is your resolution? 1920x1200 What are you using it for? Video editing, using Adobe Premiere and After Effects, loading and working with multiple HD recordings at a time, often with different frame-rates etc What is your upgrade cycle? I guess 1-2 years? I think he would like to get a great computer now and not have to worry about it anymore for some time. But of course, if a new component that does a big difference comes out, he would get it.... When do you plan on building it? He'd like to buy it tomorrow. Do you plan on overclocking? Not at the moment, but if you strongly advise it's a good decision, then I will look into it. (not enough experience here) Do you need an Operating System? No Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? If it's great for performance then yes, please advise it. Where are you buying your parts from? www.protis.hr -- Some notes: -> he has the option of buying Nvidia's Quadro 4000 graphics card for ~4500 HRK (~770 USD) from one person, so, not on www.protis.hr (it's not available there). What do you think about that card, should he get it? -> he doesn't need to buy a monitor -> he said he'd like to have 32GB of RAM. In advance, thank you so much for reading and helping. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20335 Posts
HR-02 is a great cooler, it's basically a high end cooler, but it's designed for being quiet than for performance. Unless it's for an extreme overclock on an HTPC build, I wouldn't really recommend an HR-02 unless it was particularly cheaper than other high end coolers. HR-02 Macho costs ~20-25% more than the 212 evo and has vastly, vastly superior performance and noise levels, i wanted to use it as an example. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
On March 18 2013 07:19 yaeger wrote: Hello guys and girls =) Im thinking about buying a new GPU ( got a old gtx 580 now) It kinda stand between ASUS GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX CUDA or Gainward GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX What do you guys think ? Yes iknow they are way overpriced and im mainly using my pc for gaming ( 1920x1080 res) but I dont care about that =) thanks for all the help ! Honestly, there's not a lot of point to the Titan. For resolutions 2560x1600 and below, cheaper options will still max out your games. For higher resolutions, the Titan doesn't have (currently) very good SLI efficiency, so it is again possible for multiple Titans to lose out to multiple 7970s. There's a difference between overpriced & uselessly expensive. The Titan seems a lot closer to the second. In your position I'd rather get a 7970 & a 2560x1440 monitor or just a $1000 2560x1600 monitor running on the 580 than the Titan. But if you insist on getting one because you want to brag that you have one, it doesn't matter what brand you get. There aren't any custom coolers on the various Titans that I'm aware of, so they're all the exact the same thing. Get whichever one is cheaper. Maybe see if you can get an EVGA model for the same price, since they have a reputation for great customer service. | ||
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
On March 18 2013 08:06 Cyro wrote: HR-02 Macho costs ~20-25% more than the 212 evo and has vastly, vastly superior performance and noise levels, i wanted to use it as an example. I have an HR-02 Macho, and it really is quiet. My PSU (Rosewill Green 430w) is louder than it. I have a relatively open case (Bit Fenix Alpha) and I have to really strain to hear it. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Weird, especially as it happened to both power supplies. LED strip and then a case LED? Strip connected to molex, or what? Case LED would be connected to the motherboard... Yes, strip to molex, case led to mobo. An LED dying really shouldn't kill a power supply. Most of the times, they fail in ways that don't particularly change too much the electric load they present, just get dimmer or go off. They're more likely to fail as an open circuit than a short circuit. And even if they fail as a "short circuit", it's not going to be like 0 ohms actually, and any LED strip or single LED probably has a resistor somewhere in series to limit the current anyway, so it's not like it's really changing the load on the power supply much by going faulty in any way. Even if you got a failure as a dead short and overdrew the power supply, protections should kick in and shut the thing off. And you'd probably have some hot wires, burning plastic somewhere as a result. (Do you see any? Anything get hot? Did you try disconnecting stuff while troubleshooting, trying the power supplies?) Hm no burns or anything, I inspected inside connections too. The LED on the 2nd one was hot actually, I think it actually went out like a lightbulb as it dimmed, then got bright but I shut it down quickly in both cases. Yes, I've tried disconnecting stuff, I know for sure it was the PSU in both cases. The first time I didn't make the connection because I didn't actually run PSU tests to make sure nothing was wrong with it, but I did pass prime95 for 24 hours+ and gpu stress test with no issue. I didn't really make the connection with the LED going out until the next PSU failed, which I surely tested with GPU tests and PSU tests to make sure it was all good when I got it, and it was. Literally immediately after that LED went out, I ran some PSU tests (the day before I had just passed 35 hours of prime95 on 5ghz@1.499v) and it was failing. It doesnt seem to have derated as badly as before, as it can even pass prime95 on a heavy overclock and stock GPU tests, but not overclocked GPU and no psu tests. And I confirm of course with an OEM psu hooked up to the GPU. I've even removed all my fans and such to see if that made a difference, it didn't though, even 8 case fans don't take much power at all (3 amps each roughly, so like 24 amps on all at full blast, not even). I've seen quite a few PSU fails, I work in a computer repair shop, but I must say I was a bit surprised when it happened to me, and twice. Like I said, a bit of bad luck, a bit of bad psu. I think the LED took down the PSU, not the other way around. The first LED I knew was faulty (nzxt sleeved led has 3 power settings, the lowest one didnt work but i didnt bother to rma it until it blew out, and the caps turned browns). The second one must just have been sensitive, must have been fed too much power. The problem is that corsair cx psu's are notoriously low quality. I didn't realize that until after I bought them. The cx line was updated specifically because quite a few people were having this issue, of failing caps, but the new caps aren't exactly the highest quality. Should have went with the xfx pro550w when it was on sale, or the antec neo eco. Currently I'm not sure if I'll sure the cx600 replacement they are giving me (corsair support has been amazing), or go with a higher quality psu that costs much less and sell the cx600 for a bit of profit. Either way is a hassle so it's basically $20 vs imppeccable support. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how XFX/PC P&P support goes, if they support warranties for second hand products like corsair does, if they are as good as corsair in regards to rma's, etc. Hello guys and girls =) Im thinking about buying a new GPU ( got a old gtx 580 now) It kinda stand between ASUS GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX CUDA or Gainward GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX What do you guys think ? Yes iknow they are way overpriced and im mainly using my pc for gaming ( 1920x1080 res) but I dont care about that =) thanks for all the help ! Do you need single GPU? If you don't need single GPU, you would be better off with 690s. If you are only on 1080 you should probably look into upgrading your monitor first too. Titan's performance is more like $600-700 than $1000, I mean they lose to the 690 in performance, unless you specifically need single GPU. HR-02 Macho costs ~20-25% more than the 212 evo and has vastly, vastly superior performance and noise levels, i wanted to use it as an example. If you could get it for $35 that would be a great price for it. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On March 18 2013 07:19 yaeger wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hello guys and girls =) Im thinking about buying a new GPU ( got a old gtx 580 now) It kinda stand between ASUS GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX CUDA or Gainward GeForce GTX TITAN 6GB PhysX What do you guys think ? Yes iknow they are way overpriced and im mainly using my pc for gaming ( 1920x1080 res) but I dont care about that =) thanks for all the help ! Unless it's got a waterblock on it for custom water cooling, all GTX Titans sold are the same hardware, just sold under different brands. Check prices and how good the customer support is for each brand. Also, that better be a 120Hz monitor if it's 1920x1080, or I'mma come smack you. On March 18 2013 07:29 niteReloaded wrote: + Show Spoiler + Hello TL's precious computer gurus. Here's my inquiry: My brother is wanting to assemble a beastly computer to make his work flow better. My answers to OP questions: What is your budget? It would be at most 17000 HRK, which would translate to around 2900 USD. I assume the prices are higher here in Croatia, and it would be ideal (but probably too much to ask) if someone here could take a look at the website www.protis.hr and choose the components from there. (using google translate should make it acceptable to navigate) What is your resolution? 1920x1200 What are you using it for? Video editing, using Adobe Premiere and After Effects, loading and working with multiple HD recordings at a time, often with different frame-rates etc What is your upgrade cycle? I guess 1-2 years? I think he would like to get a great computer now and not have to worry about it anymore for some time. But of course, if a new component that does a big difference comes out, he would get it.... When do you plan on building it? He'd like to buy it tomorrow. Do you plan on overclocking? Not at the moment, but if you strongly advise it's a good decision, then I will look into it. (not enough experience here) Do you need an Operating System? No Do you plan to add a second GPU for SLI or Crossfire? If it's great for performance then yes, please advise it. Where are you buying your parts from? www.protis.hr -- Some notes: -> he has the option of buying Nvidia's Quadro 4000 graphics card for ~4500 HRK (~770 USD) from one person, so, not on www.protis.hr (it's not available there). What do you think about that card, should he get it? -> he doesn't need to buy a monitor -> he said he'd like to have 32GB of RAM. In advance, thank you so much for reading and helping. How much storage does he need? Does he already have hard drives? He's working with raw video probably, right? Depending on the kind of Premiere Pro usage, the Quadro 4000 for 4500 HRK could be worth it on that budget. On March 18 2013 08:23 Belial88 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Weird, especially as it happened to both power supplies. LED strip and then a case LED? Strip connected to molex, or what? Case LED would be connected to the motherboard... Yes, strip to molex, case led to mobo. An LED dying really shouldn't kill a power supply. Most of the times, they fail in ways that don't particularly change too much the electric load they present, just get dimmer or go off. They're more likely to fail as an open circuit than a short circuit. And even if they fail as a "short circuit", it's not going to be like 0 ohms actually, and any LED strip or single LED probably has a resistor somewhere in series to limit the current anyway, so it's not like it's really changing the load on the power supply much by going faulty in any way. Even if you got a failure as a dead short and overdrew the power supply, protections should kick in and shut the thing off. And you'd probably have some hot wires, burning plastic somewhere as a result. (Do you see any? Anything get hot? Did you try disconnecting stuff while troubleshooting, trying the power supplies?) Hm no burns or anything, I inspected inside connections too. The LED on the 2nd one was hot actually, I think it actually went out like a lightbulb as it dimmed, then got bright but I shut it down quickly in both cases. Yes, I've tried disconnecting stuff, I know for sure it was the PSU in both cases. The first time I didn't make the connection because I didn't actually run PSU tests to make sure nothing was wrong with it, but I did pass prime95 for 24 hours+ and gpu stress test with no issue. I didn't really make the connection with the LED going out until the next PSU failed, which I surely tested with GPU tests and PSU tests to make sure it was all good when I got it, and it was. Literally immediately after that LED went out, I ran some PSU tests (the day before I had just passed 35 hours of prime95 on 5ghz@1.499v) and it was failing. It doesnt seem to have derated as badly as before, as it can even pass prime95 on a heavy overclock and stock GPU tests, but not overclocked GPU and no psu tests. And I confirm of course with an OEM psu hooked up to the GPU. I've even removed all my fans and such to see if that made a difference, it didn't though, even 8 case fans don't take much power at all (3 amps each roughly, so like 24 amps on all at full blast, not even). I've seen quite a few PSU fails, I work in a computer repair shop, but I must say I was a bit surprised when it happened to me, and twice. Like I said, a bit of bad luck, a bit of bad psu. I think the LED took down the PSU, not the other way around. The first LED I knew was faulty (nzxt sleeved led has 3 power settings, the lowest one didnt work but i didnt bother to rma it until it blew out, and the caps turned browns). The second one must just have been sensitive, must have been fed too much power. The problem is that corsair cx psu's are notoriously low quality. I didn't realize that until after I bought them. The cx line was updated specifically because quite a few people were having this issue, of failing caps, but the new caps aren't exactly the highest quality. Should have went with the xfx pro550w when it was on sale, or the antec neo eco. Currently I'm not sure if I'll sure the cx600 replacement they are giving me (corsair support has been amazing), or go with a higher quality psu that costs much less and sell the cx600 for a bit of profit. Either way is a hassle so it's basically $20 vs imppeccable support. And I'm having a hard time figuring out how XFX/PC P&P support goes, if they support warranties for second hand products like corsair does, if they are as good as corsair in regards to rma's, etc. Maybe I live too much in theoryland, but to me the cause and effect with respect to the LEDs and power supplies just doesn't add up. If you think about the ways a power supply can fail, what different loads do to a power supply, how it works, and then you think about the difference in electric load between a working LED and a dead LED, the dots just don't connect. This is especially considering the lack of burned stuff, how the LED was plugged into the motherboard yet the motherboard still seems to be fine, and more. Corsair CX is cheap, but I don't know about notoriously low quality. They sell so many, and most people have few or no issues with them, and the ones that do are mostly just complaining about coil whine, which is a symptom that doesn't affect the operation of the electronics. There aren't that many reports of outright problems like you seem to be having. If this is what you're referring to, supposedly on a few of the bad samples RMA'd, the primary capacitor was blown in some of the CX and CX V2 versions, so they ate the cost and moved from SamXon to something better for currently-shipping CX bronze, but I doubt that's really a common issue. With some field data, maybe Corsair doesn't think it's worth the risk, but it's probably not a large one. It's not that rare to see a SamXon primary cap in mid-and lower-end power supplies. And anyway, this isn't related to CX bronze. As I've said, CX series is built cheap, but it really shouldn't be that bad on average, certainly not enough to get two issues on CX bronze units without getting really really unlucky. | ||
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