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On June 17 2010 07:32 Qw4z1 wrote:
I've been using an MX510 until my cat bit of the cord.. =( Now I'm back to my even older heavy ass Logitech dual optical something something, and I can tell you this:
What ever you buy, don't buy a heavy mouse! You will seriously hurt your wrist!
cats love mice cords  mine has broken atleast 2 mice, and 3 chargers for my phone
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I've seen Bisu use a small soccer logitech mouse before. I think just buy anything that you can control your acceleration of your mouse.
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The dpi depends on what resolution you are playing at, you don't want it too fast or too slow. Adjust it to something in between, get used to it and you're set. Those 'big' mouses are so fucking horrible for RTS games, I don't know why people suggest them.
I completely agree.
Of course, everyone that feels comfortable with something will give their opinion, and to be frank, you can get used to pretty much everything (I played CS professionally with a ball mouse once upon a time). Having said that, smaller mice simply are better, if you get used to them. It will never be more precise using your whole hand controlling the mouse. Palm contact, sure, if that's your thing, but if the mouse grows too big, your ability to actively use the fingers on the side of the mouse is gone, and this is the best source of precision.
I'm extremely picky about sensors, and I must say, I haven't had any mouse perform as good as the MS Intellimouse 1.1 (it's pretty much neck and neck with the Diamondback, tough).
Also, another myth is that laser sensors are better. This is just a complete lie. I was baffled when the laser mice entered the market and everyone started making those instead of the infrared ones; as for instance Razer, hasn't come up with a laser sensor that is anything close to their infrared ones, at least not yet. In my opinion, Razer mice have had pretty crappy sensors since the Diamondback one. The absolute worst is the one in the Habu. Utterly horrible. Skips from the day you buy it with any form of dust, and deteriorates rapidly (I should know, I bought three, from three different shipments, mind you, and all of them completely failed after short amounts of time). Currently I have the Lachesis, and it also has an unreliable sensor. Loads of skipping.
When I still played CS, I went through oodles of difference mice, and I must say the Diamondback and the Intellimouse 1.1. still are the best. Whatever you do, steer clear of laser, a good infrared sensor is simply several times better. Much more reliable.
Also, Logitech can't make mice worth shit. And, yes, I've tried a bunch. Maybe they'll work if you've got gorilla hands (nothing wrong with that, gorillas must game as well, but you're missing out on superior sensors with for instance Razer, the infrared ones, at least). Also, all of them look like they were designed by a three-year-old (except the old Mouseman Wheel Optical).
After finding the Lachesis not good enough, I'm probably going to try out the Steelseries Kinzu. Hopefully it's as awesome as it looks. No-nonsense and small, as it should be. Maybe I'll finally get back to something close to the Diamondback again (I still curse the day my idiot roommate destroyed it with lemonade).
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Thank you guys for this great discussion:
After a lot of feedback, I've narrowed it down to the Steelseries Kinzu or the Intellimouse 3.0
Both have the similar price, reputation and the light, claw-grip ergonomics I prefer. Fight!
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From these two, I'd vote for Intellimouse, but normally would prefer Logitech.
Currently, still playing just with touchpad, as I don't want to get into high micro/apm strats yet.
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DPI isnt really what you need for RTS. Wholly necessary for FPS, but the crazy super accuracy isnt exactly necessary unless you are fond of microing specific zerglings.
What is more important is the poll rate // refresh rate. Basically, how many times a second does your mouse look to see that you have moved.
I went from an mx518 to a deathadder.
518 is more comfortable, deathadder wins more. It's faster.
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Stopped using the intellimouse years ago when the Logitech G series came out. Simply was no comparison in speed and accuracy for competitive FPS. Intellimouse is ok if you plan on just playing the game, but isn't up to snuff if you plan on being serious. If you aren't completely set I would seriously consider a G series or at the bare minimum a MX series. Both are far better then the two you have listed there.
Steelseries, no idea. Hate their headphones have never considered buying anything else. Quite possibly the only brand I dislike more then razer for being epicly cheap crap.
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I think comfort is one of the best things you need. a generic dell mouse (ball) suks. thats what i used until about 2 weeks ago.
edit: I use a Razer deathadder with vespula, much more comfortable than the g5 and mx518 my friend has, though i have large hands, but the fingers are skinny.
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On June 17 2010 11:41 dogabutila wrote:
DPI isnt really what you need for RTS. Wholly necessary for FPS, [1]
but the crazy super accuracy isnt exactly necessary ... [2]
What is more important is the poll rate // refresh rate. Basically, how many times a second does your mouse look to see that you have moved. [3]
I went from an mx518 to a deathadder.
518 is more comfortable, deathadder wins more. It's faster. [4]
Sorry to pick on you, as many others hold such incredible viewpoints.
[1] Complete nonsense. In competitive FPS, it is widely agreed that precision wins out over cursor speed (the ability to be "tactically mobile") because of the necessity of aim. Therefore, it is better to have low DPI and lower sensitivity settings than for e.g. desktop browsing.
[2] DPI does not equate to accuracy or precision. It would be a lot easier to be 100% precise/accurate if your mouse was 1 DPI (though this is impractical in games for obvious reasons). That way you would very easily get pixel-perfect accuracy and precision.
1 DPI means you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 1 pixel. 10 DPI = you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 10 pixels (yes, it's slightly more complicated than this). And so on. That is all it means. Higher DPI will equate to higher cursor speed since moving 1 inch will move the cursor farther when the DPI is higher. In other words, higher DPI will result in worse accuracy/precision because of the nature of the human hand. In RTS, we "trade" accuracy for screen coverage more often than not.
Accuracy is not something that is controlled by a single variable. There are a huge number of things in play. The way you hold the mouse, the surfaces involved (mouse and mousepad friction) etc.
[3] This aspect of a mouse is not more important or less important than any other features that mice have (including tracking software, surfaces, button placements etc.). You need good specs in everything to have the best mouse experience. You're not buying a specification, you are buying a package of features.
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The Intellimouse 3.0 is my fav mouse by far, but the issue is the microswitches on them go out in short order. As such I switched to the MS Wheel Mouse Optical 1.1A. It has the same optical sensor as the Intellimouse 3.0, it just lacks the side buttons, and can be found almost anywhere for about $5. I buy them 5 at a time and when the button microswitches go out I just use a new one (they all have this issue unfortunately). I haven't found a better optical sensor (for me) than the old MS ones.
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Any mouse that's accurate and clicks well (as in the buttons aren't too stiff and aren't squishy). I use a razer salmosa, which isn't ideal because the buttons are so large, but until i really feel the need to get a new mouse I can deal with it just fine.
Any FPS grade mouse will be fine. But if you want MORE than fine, get the Razer Spectre with APM IMPROVEMENT TECHNOLOGY
oh, and depending on your preferred pointer speed get a mouse with a DPI to match. if you like a slower pointer speed, get one with around 800 dpi. If you get a mouse with something like 500000000000 dpi like a lot of the new razer mice and turn the sensitivity down a lot to match your preference of a lower speed, the mouse will actually force the pointer to move in straight lines and if you've ever gotten into any FPSes you'll really notice how inaccurate it becomes. I used to play a lot of quake, I know this stuff,
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On June 17 2010 12:05 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 11:41 dogabutila wrote:
DPI isnt really what you need for RTS. Wholly necessary for FPS, [1]
but the crazy super accuracy isnt exactly necessary ... [2]
What is more important is the poll rate // refresh rate. Basically, how many times a second does your mouse look to see that you have moved. [3]
I went from an mx518 to a deathadder.
518 is more comfortable, deathadder wins more. It's faster. [4] Sorry to pick on you, as many others hold such incredible viewpoints. [1] Complete nonsense. In competitive FPS, it is widely agreed that precision wins out over cursor speed (the ability to be "tactically mobile") because of the necessity of aim. Therefore, it is better to have low DPI and lower sensitivity settings than for e.g. desktop browsing. [2] DPI does not equate to accuracy or precision. It would be a lot easier to be 100% precise/accurate if your mouse was 1 DPI (though this is impractical in games for obvious reasons). That way you would very easily get pixel-perfect accuracy and precision. 1 DPI means you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 1 pixel. 10 DPI = you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 10 pixels (yes, it's slightly more complicated than this). And so on. That is all it means. Higher DPI will equate to higher cursor speed since moving 1 inch will move the cursor farther when the DPI is higher. In other words, higher DPI will result in worse accuracy/precision because of the nature of the human hand. In RTS, we "trade" accuracy for screen coverage more often than not. Accuracy is not something that is controlled by a single variable. There are a huge number of things in play. The way you hold the mouse, the surfaces involved (mouse and mousepad friction) etc. [3] This aspect of a mouse is not more important or less important than any other features that mice have (including tracking software, surfaces, button placements etc.). You need good specs in everything to have the best mouse experience. You're not buying a specification, you are buying a package of features.
1) Game speed has a bunch to do with how fast you need the cursor to be. Needs in say...quake are far different from needs in....rainbow 6. What you want depends on which game you play. To be honest though, there was a lot of stuff I thought I posted but apparently got left out. And, now that I read it over that was a pretty gimp post. I did mean to say that looking at DPI isn't necessary for RTS.
2) "In RTS, we "trade" accuracy for screen coverage more often than not." I basically just said that.... In fact I could have sworn I put in a sarcastic comment about microing individual lings, but I have no clue where it went.
3) Might not be more or less important, but it is something that people do not think about generally when buying a mouse. I certainly wouldnt buy something crazy high polling if it hurt or only had one button. But this 'response time' is certainly more important then the accuracy of the mouse in general for RTS games. While it isnt the end all be all measurement of how fast your mouse responds to your input, it is a large factor. Nobody wants an unresponsive mouse right? And in a game where pros play on CRT monitors to cut down on milliseconds of lag over LCD screens.... Wherever YOU can shave a few milliseconds off makes you a few milliseconds faster as well.
4) ?
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As someone already pointed out, its more accurate to have low dpi and low sensitivity, its just tougher since it requires you to move your hand more and faster than with high dpi or high sensitivity. To my knowledge, pro fps players usually play with both low dpi and low sensitivity with huge mouse pads.
One thing to remember though is to disable mouse acceleration in Windows. Thats the checkmark called "enhance pointer precision". Make sure it is UNCHECKED. Basically the "enhance pointer precision" option makes your mouse less precise by adding acceleration(yea leave it to microsoft to name it the opposite of what it does).
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On June 17 2010 14:45 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2010 12:05 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On June 17 2010 11:41 dogabutila wrote:
DPI isnt really what you need for RTS. Wholly necessary for FPS, [1]
but the crazy super accuracy isnt exactly necessary ... [2]
What is more important is the poll rate // refresh rate. Basically, how many times a second does your mouse look to see that you have moved. [3]
I went from an mx518 to a deathadder.
518 is more comfortable, deathadder wins more. It's faster. [4] Sorry to pick on you, as many others hold such incredible viewpoints. [1] Complete nonsense. In competitive FPS, it is widely agreed that precision wins out over cursor speed (the ability to be "tactically mobile") because of the necessity of aim. Therefore, it is better to have low DPI and lower sensitivity settings than for e.g. desktop browsing. [2] DPI does not equate to accuracy or precision. It would be a lot easier to be 100% precise/accurate if your mouse was 1 DPI (though this is impractical in games for obvious reasons). That way you would very easily get pixel-perfect accuracy and precision. 1 DPI means you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 1 pixel. 10 DPI = you move 1 inch, your mouse cursor moves 10 pixels (yes, it's slightly more complicated than this). And so on. That is all it means. Higher DPI will equate to higher cursor speed since moving 1 inch will move the cursor farther when the DPI is higher. In other words, higher DPI will result in worse accuracy/precision because of the nature of the human hand. In RTS, we "trade" accuracy for screen coverage more often than not. Accuracy is not something that is controlled by a single variable. There are a huge number of things in play. The way you hold the mouse, the surfaces involved (mouse and mousepad friction) etc. [3] This aspect of a mouse is not more important or less important than any other features that mice have (including tracking software, surfaces, button placements etc.). You need good specs in everything to have the best mouse experience. You're not buying a specification, you are buying a package of features. 1) Game speed has a bunch to do with how fast you need the cursor to be. Needs in say...quake are far different from needs in....rainbow 6. What you want depends on which game you play. At any rate, the sentence didnt say what I wanted it to say since I was drifting off. I think that whole post was kind of disjointed anyways, but I meant to say ;ooking at DPI 2) "In RTS, we "trade" accuracy for screen coverage more often than not." I basically just said that.... 3) Might not be more or less important, but it is something that people do not think about generally when buying a mouse. I certainly wouldnt buy something crazy high polling if it hurt or only had one button. But this 'response time' is certainly more important then the accuracy of the mouse in general for RTS games. While it isnt the end all be all measurement of how fast your mouse responds to your input, it is a large factor. Nobody wants an unresponsive mouse right? And in a game where pros play on CRT monitors to cut down on milliseconds of lag over LCD screens.... Wherever YOU can shave a few milliseconds off makes you a few milliseconds faster as well. 4) ?
As far as point 1), yes there are extremities and corner cases. But even in the super-fast world of Q3, gamers prefer low sens and big mouse pads for lots of hand motion (to make up for the low cursor speed). The context of the point being this: that in comparing RTS and FPS players, FPS players almost universally have lower DPI settings.
For 2), yes you said something quasi-similar, but you were implying that DPI = accuracy. This is the exact opposite of reality. Higher DPI equates to lower accuracy in terms of human performance. That's the point I was making.
Sorry I didn't properly respond to [4], I was in a rush. You said that the Deathadder is "faster" but gave no indication of what you meant or why "faster" is better. Does it physically move faster on the mouse pad? Is it "faster" because the cursor speed is higher (because the DPI can be higher)? And how does being "faster" in any of these ways make it a better mouse?
I'm not going to say that a Deathadder isn't a superior mouse to an MX518. However, I have reasoning behind my positions, and I'm frustrated when others either don't have any justification for their opinions or don't voice them (or in your case, are just ambiguous as to what they mean).
The OP is asking for help, and a lot of people are offering "this is the best mouse" with no qualifications or reasoning. Maybe they're right, but think about it from the OP's perspective. This isn't a poll, the mouse with the most votes isn't going to "win". The OP is trying to make an intelligent decision based on rational discussion.
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To be honest I don't know how pros set their mouses. When I played 1.6, I had the mx518 and I would turn the mouse sensitivity up, and the ingame sensitivity down to like 1.3 or something. I don't know if that makes sense at all, but it had the effect of making the crosshairs move when i moved my mouse, without having them jump all over the screen every time i twitched.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.mousearena.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/logitech-soccer-mouse.jpg)
