We had one of these before but I think it's about time we had another one.
Now, this is NOT a thread for debating the merits of MBS or the being or not being of the mothership, but rather the smaller things. I'll start off with some examples:
- Please fix the SCV death animation, they need to explode like in SC. The way it is now, it's almost impossible to tell if an SCV is dead or alive - not good.
- How come the unit HP bars are now displayed above the units instead of below them? It's a bit distracting.
- The creep looks great, but units need to be more easily distinguishable when on it. Some of the darker units meld right into it (don't know if this is an issue when playing, but it was when watching the blizzcon games on the stream).
I'll be updating this thread as common complaints are identified, and at the end of the month it will be included in the monthly feedback report.
- I hate the Colossus. The idea, the model, and the name.
- I don't like the fences in the game. The original never had them, why are you putting them in? It's too... I hate to say it.... C&C-esque. Look here.
- The Immortal and Stalker seem like the same unit. Both walk on 4 legs and such, it's just cool if every unit has a distinct look.
- The Protoss voices seem too computerized- they don't have the conviction and malice.
- There's too much colour and detail done to explosion and attacks. When I see battles it's almost like I can't tell whats going on.
Please fix the command delay for the probes, in SC I could order the probe to build a pylon or something then immediately clicks a mineral patch to gather or perform another action right away. This could be done extremely quickly that you don't even really see the pylon get build if you were watching from a FP perspective. While playing at Blizzcon, Probes couldnt do this. I suspect the slower game engine or just inferior hardwares not optimized for the Starcraft 2 specific requirements but if you could please fix it.
- I don't like the fences in the game. The original never had them, why are you putting them in? It's too... I hate to say it.... C&C-esque. Look here.
--- It's a god damn doodad. I'm sorry but it's a retarded complaint, it's no different from a wall --;;
It's not like you can build them yourself (that's a single player map).
On November 04 2008 04:28 XCetron wrote: Please fix the command delay for the probes, in SC I could order the probe to build a pylon or something then immediately clicks a mineral patch to gather or perform another action right away. This could be done extremely quickly that you don't even really see the pylon get build if you were watching from a FP perspective. While playing at Blizzcon, Probes couldnt do this. I suspect the slower game engine or just inferior hardwares not optimized for the Starcraft 2 specific requirements but if you could please fix it.
Could you elaborate? Was the problem that it wouldn't start the pylon? Because iirc the first time I played on LAN latency I had trouble with units actually reacting too fast, so the timing I was used to for pylon-> mine, meant I ordered him to mine BEFORE he had started the pylon.
- Creep looks better now but it really needs too look less like ooze.
- DTs dont look like they have psi blades, it looks like some weird ass stick.
- Zerglings still have some wing like characteristics I didnt enjoy. Make them meaner please!
- Banelings are overpowered.
- Nydus worm mechanic sucks really bad, I think it would function better without the Ovie on a longer build time.
- Its hard to distinguish overlords that are dropping creep sometimes
- Tanks look too... hmm... modern? I guess I expected them to be more brutish than they were.
- Please fix the units moving without command function. Such as a probe being told to scout and Zealots move from ramp unless in hold position. I think this really reduces army management and will lead to most players just staring at their gateways till they are maxed. MBS is one thing but this is totally hurting the competitive nature of StarCraft.
In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
don't know what is the problem here.. you should just use SHIFT button with the mine command..
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
don't know what is the problem here.. you should just use SHIFT button with the mine command..
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
don't know what is the problem here.. you should just use SHIFT button with the mine command..
Thats slower than the way it is currently in sc.
not really.. I guess my proof is that majority of the progamers use this method right now in SC:.
FrozenArbiter - The creep looks great, but units need to be more easily distinguishable when on it. Some of the darker units meld right into it (don't know if this is an issue when playing, but it was when watching the blizzcon games on the stream).
EZ fix Blizz just needs to turn down the saturation.
First a questions: Whats MBS? And whats the auto command? I did not go to Blizzcon so yeah. Someone explain this to me
Ok now for the complaints:
1. Lurkers look flat. Please add the uberness they had in sc1. Or do something cuz they looka little flat? Also their attack animation. It look like the ends of toothpicks coming off the ground. Make them Bigger and more UBER PLEASE!
2 . Make the protoss forge less bubbly. The big blubble thing at the end makes it lok like its chewing gum -_-
3. Make the protoss gateways less square at the base. Is it just me or is there somr random blackline that makes the bottom look like a square?
4. Take off the auto builds for Carriers and what other units need to build ammo. Turn of auto stuff like that. Really hurts competitive nature. I mean wouldnt it be hilarious if you were watching two pros play sc2 and one loses because he/she forgot to build more interceptors?
5. Update your site. Fan sites are more updated than the official one. Please do this ASAP
6. Make the creep a lighter purple than what it is right now. U can barely see the units. I was watching the sc2 exhibition match of Yellow vs Sonkie.... I could barely see anything when they were fighting on the creep!
7. Make the zerg build less shiny. Yes a lot of people are saying this but it really needs to be less shiny. The tenticle thing that happens when its morhping is pretty cool those.
8. Make the terran building have shaprer edges. The barracks sides are a little too round to be metal. Looks a little play-hod ish.
9. Explain the trilogy thing thats happening with sc2. If its going to be expansions, then make sure the first atleast has a bit of all three races. It would suck to be playing only Terrna/Zerg/Protoss missions.
- The new colossus attack looks ridicilous. I love the unit, and I think it looked awesome in the early game footage with its beam of doom, but right now it just looks... weak. Besides them changing the beam to only attack from one side of the unit (why the hell did they remove the focused twin-laser that looked better?), the fast sweep doesn't fit the bad-assery of the unit at all.
- Unit death animations still seems a bit too elaborate. I want a quick death and a puddle of blood on the ground. Not corpses.
- I don't like the terran units. The Thor is a large walking junkyard, the banshee a goddamn helicopter (in a sci-fi game!), the Viking is cool but doesn't look very good, the medivac just seems stupid, etc etc...
- Removal of droppods and infested buildings. Droppods seemed like something that would be very fun to use.
- Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
- Hydralisk-attack. Dunno if they fixed that one, but small needles doesn't really compare to the awesome acid-spitting attack they have in BW.
Get rid of the fucking reaper. Blizzard keeps pushing it as a great unit, but it's plain to see that the unit still really sucks and either needs to be revamped or removed.
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
Units are not made to be useful at only one role, thats what sets Blizzards games apart from others, if roaches were just fast regenerating tanks they would be useful the first minutes and once your enemy gets a critical mass of units roaches can't tank any more and then gets easier to kill than zerglings per cost and space. Therefore Roaches are not just tanks, they are also the main ranged dps unit of the zerg replacing the old hydra which keeps them usefull throughout all of the game, especially since they just costs minerals like zerglings and thus you can get better results by trading a few zerglings to these in your traditional zergling army.
On November 04 2008 05:01 Dalroti wrote: 1. Lurkers look flat. Please add the uberness they had in sc1. Or do something cuz they looka little flat? Also their attack animation. It look like the ends of toothpicks coming off the ground. Make them Bigger and more UBER PLEASE!
Yes this one, when I see 12 lurkers with like 40 zerglings I seriously want to piss myself, like I do currently. Zerg needs to be as mean as they are in SC1.
On November 04 2008 05:01 Dalroti wrote: First a questions: Whats MBS? And whats the auto command? I did not go to Blizzcon so yeah. Someone explain this to me.
Where have you been dude...discussion on these things have been around since SC2 was announced. MBS is multiple building selection. I don't know what you're referring to when it comes to auto command, but there's a lot of things that are automated in SC2, like automine (rallied workers automatically mine minerals) and autosurround (melee units surround enemies when attacking).
--- It's a god damn doodad. I'm sorry but it's a retarded complaint, it's no different from a wall --;;
So much for the minor complaint thread. How about the minor complaint thread that coincides with FrozenArbiter's opinion thread?
He's complaining about a doodad in single player.
I think that complaint is retarded and I'm going to tell him that.
The thread will still be read by blizzard so they'll obviously see it wether I think it's retarded or not.
On November 04 2008 05:27 Centric wrote: Get rid of the fucking reaper. Blizzard keeps pushing it as a great unit, but it's plain to see that the unit still really sucks and either needs to be revamped or removed.
For whatever it's worth, most people I've seen talk about the reaper after blizzcon think it's a very good unit now (unlike at WWI, blizzard probably made some changes to it).
On November 04 2008 04:31 SpiralArchitect wrote: - Please fix the units moving without command function. Such as a probe being told to scout and Zealots move from ramp unless in hold position. I think this really reduces army management and will lead to most players just staring at their gateways till they are maxed. MBS is one thing but this is totally hurting the competitive nature of StarCraft.
I agree with this. I've seen some videos where an archon arrives a few seconds after a group of units it was with. As the archon reaches the group which are stationary, the archon moves in and "pushes" some of the other units to the side just so it can be more "inside" the group. It's as if the archon has a higher priority so by default it should be in the middle of the group and therefore everything in it's path moves away as it travels there. Units should not move unless told to or provoked by an enemy.
And yes, the doodad comment is retarded. If you don't like, just don't make maps using them. If a majority of the people feel the same way, they (people and mapmakers) won't put them into their custom maps. If it's just single player, who cares?
On November 04 2008 03:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: - Please fix the SCV death animation, they need to explode like in SC. The way it is now, it's almost impossible to tell if an SCV is dead or alive - not good.
- The creep looks great, but units need to be more easily distinguishable when on it. Some of the darker units meld right into it (don't know if this is an issue when playing, but it was when watching the blizzcon games on the stream).
Death animations in general need to be easier to see. In bw you can see everything thats happening in a split second; its a lot harder to distinguish units and get a good sense of how a battles going at a quick glance in sc2.
On November 04 2008 05:01 Dalroti wrote: First a questions: Whats MBS? And whats the auto command? I did not go to Blizzcon so yeah. Someone explain this to me ....bla..bla..bla (i did read them)... 9. Explain the trilogy thing thats happening with sc2. If its going to be expansions, then make sure the first atleast has a bit of all three races. It would suck to be playing only Terrna/Zerg/Protoss missions.
Though a couple may be agreeable, you shouldn't have posted until you find out what is really going on in the latest build and don't expect people to feed you. You have to base your complaints on the latest information available so your complaints aren't considered spam cluttering up this thread as well as making it easier for people to sift through. Also, I would not recommend you to make such detailed graphical suggestions until you see the game in person yourself.
That being said, my minor complaints to Blizzard: -Siege Tank Arclite attack sound is not intimidating enough for me. There's something not right about it. It feels like it's nerfed so that Thor could sound more intimidating.
-Why can't I steal a medibot into the dropship and heal myself? Technically, highly imbalance but logically, it's smarter, no? I mean even an engineer would be smart enough to place one in there. Then you can give/upgrade other races with something stronger, no?
-Why are you guys afraid of allowing a Planetary Fortress to lift off? Come on. You know it'd be cool as well as the expectation of something named "Planetary Fortress" would be a type of flying fortress. Go all out! Then upgrade the other races. Yeah, though it'd be a pseudo Mothership for Terrans but it is nothing compared to the real Mothership so it couldn't play the role of a "Mothership for Terrans". Therefore the races are still unique. And while at that, add in a bunker slot for up to 16 units and you won't have to worry about our demands of a flying bunker. To prevent imbalance, you could bring the tech upgrade at a high tier. If you think this is illogical or very imbalance, you would want to know I'm holding back the idea of it transforming into a giant robot.
Awesome Terrans should be awesome logically and technologically. Uh, one more:
-What's the deal with Archons? People were expecting a 3rd Archon for the High Templar and Dark Templar combination. You have crushed many dreams and took a step further by breaking hearts when you removed the Dark Archon.
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
you can BP+shift click minerals in both SC and SC2, so imo this isnt any real concern.
On November 04 2008 05:01 Dalroti wrote: 1. Lurkers look flat. Please add the uberness they had in sc1. Or do something cuz they looka little flat? Also their attack animation. It look like the ends of toothpicks coming off the ground. Make them Bigger and more UBER PLEASE!
Yes this one, when I see 12 lurkers with like 40 zerglings I seriously want to piss myself, like I do currently. Zerg needs to be as mean as they are in SC1.
i kind of like lurkers better now. they were way scarier and more badass in SC but at the same time they didnt have a huge amount of HP and i thought they were way to fragile to look that badass. now they actually look like little underground monsters that aren't safe when they're not burrowed. they don't look as COOL but they look more like they should in terms of gameplay
On November 04 2008 05:27 Centric wrote: Get rid of the fucking reaper. Blizzard keeps pushing it as a great unit, but it's plain to see that the unit still really sucks and either needs to be revamped or removed.
For whatever it's worth, most people I've seen talk about the reaper after blizzcon think it's a very good unit now (unlike at WWI, blizzard probably made some changes to it).
Afai could tell the reaper seemed to be the most skill oriented unit I played with at blizzcon 2008. Diving up and down cliffs around a person's main/nat and holding position up there then coming down and trying to timing throw bombs where probes or other units would be upon them exploding is art.
They seemed kinda cheap in fact if someone was really skilled with them (which would probably not take very much practice).
On November 04 2008 04:22 rushz0rz wrote: - I don't like the fences in the game. The original never had them, why are you putting them in? It's too... I hate to say it.... C&C-esque. Look here.
I actually agree with you on this. I hate the look of it and it does remind me of C&C.
The colossus is just plain boring, it seems like it's supposed to be taking the place of the reaver and it's doing that job really poorly.
Going to agree with the Immortal/Stalker statement, they're too similar. It works for terran infantry, but protoss units shouldn't look similar to one another.
If roaches are going to be replacing hydras as the primary ranged zerg ground unit, then please make them at least look half as cool.
Attacks are too detailed and glow far too much. The dragoon ball of energy in the original SC looks a lot cooler than the stalker's attack. The old DTs look a lot cooler than the new ones. In general, things that glow are not half as cool as Blizzard seems to think.
Creep should be lighter in color, or something should be done to make it easier to see zerg units on it, was hard to see what was going on in the Blizzcon stream and considering that a lot of the games will be observed using the same method, it should be fixed.
Lots of these are points people already made, but I figured I would emphasis on what I felt needed to be fixed. I obviously have issues with MBS, etc.. I'm sure Blizzard will work out the engine related stuff, so my only real complaint is about the new graphics. They definitely look nice, but they should be changed a bit. Not everything needs to look really flashy, I'd like to see glow and flash effects reserved for important things. Psi storm should glow and be bright and look really cool. Lurker attacks should look really awesome, same with Siege Tank attacks. Thing that really affect the battle should be flashy, basic stalker attacks and what not should be toned down.
this was mentioned before, but all I want for Christmas is for the dark templar to have 1. little to no armor 2. either a cool psi blade or sword just a simple, stealthy, spartan look like in the original. This was my fav model in the game ^^
On November 04 2008 05:27 Centric wrote: Get rid of the fucking reaper. Blizzard keeps pushing it as a great unit, but it's plain to see that the unit still really sucks and either needs to be revamped or removed.
For whatever it's worth, most people I've seen talk about the reaper after blizzcon think it's a very good unit now (unlike at WWI, blizzard probably made some changes to it).
Afai could tell the reaper seemed to be the most skill oriented unit I played with at blizzcon 2008. Diving up and down cliffs around a person's main/nat and holding position up there then coming down and trying to timing throw bombs where probes or other units would be upon them exploding is art.
They seemed kinda cheap in fact if someone was really skilled with them (which would probably not take very much practice).
Personally I think its only a fraction as 'cheap' as shuttle/reaver. So glad their gone. Not saying I didn't use this combo.. it was just too powerful. (altho very costly if it failed)
On November 04 2008 03:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: - How come the unit HP bars are now displayed above the units instead of below them? It's a bit distracting.
Imo it's because the game is true 3d. In SC every unit was a similar height, and there was very little unit overlap. 90% of the time there was no unit overlap combination that would make a group of units hp difficult to see. In SC2 each unit has a very different height and unit overlap can leave the base of many units completely covered alot of the time. While the chance of their head being covered is far less (but still possible). Personally I feel that from a 3d perspective health on top just makes sense. We can't keep everything from SC just because were use to it. Some things have to change as a result of other things changing, otherwise we are still playing an archaic 10 year old game with new graphics.
I don't personally mind it in WC3, but during the stream many people were complaining this made it hard to see the units below, so it's something to consider.
On November 04 2008 05:27 Centric wrote: Get rid of the fucking reaper. Blizzard keeps pushing it as a great unit, but it's plain to see that the unit still really sucks and either needs to be revamped or removed.
For whatever it's worth, most people I've seen talk about the reaper after blizzcon think it's a very good unit now (unlike at WWI, blizzard probably made some changes to it).
Afai could tell the reaper seemed to be the most skill oriented unit I played with at blizzcon 2008. Diving up and down cliffs around a person's main/nat and holding position up there then coming down and trying to timing throw bombs where probes or other units would be upon them exploding is art.
They seemed kinda cheap in fact if someone was really skilled with them (which would probably not take very much practice).
Personally I think its only a fraction as 'cheap' as shuttle/reaver. So glad their gone. Not saying I didn't use this combo.. it was just too powerful. (altho very costly if it failed)
I think the bars should be semi-transparent and units that are currently taking damage should flash red in the icon screen, or the bar should show more.
I totally agree with the health bars thing. Put it below the units. And make it so the units you have selected show their health below them. Pressing alt should show the health of all units but otherwise make sure the health of selected units is always shown under them. Like in sc.
-Please make the new Zealots less gay, by making their blades longer and sharper. And change the way they walk so it doesnt seem like they have just been sodomized by an Ultralisk.
-Please make the Colossus useful again, im sure that mass Battlecruisers were also very effective against Zerglings in SC:BW, but when you need such expensive units to one hit kill the weakest and least expensive combat unit in the game, something is not working right.
-Please make the Mothership useful, i dont like that idea of it being just a "fun unit", because you know... Other units that were "fun" in SC:BW like the Queen or Ghost, werent exactly useful, nor fun for that matter.
-Change the Dark Templar to its original desing, dont try fixing what it isnt broken.
-Please drop the Corrupter (is that its name?) and instead try to give the Zerg a decent air to air unit. Its not gonna be fun raping those overlords with Phoenix if the Zerg cant fight back.
-Please do something about the contrast of the creep whit the units, because i couldnt see **** when units fought there.
^^, The DT, they're trying to improve what isn't broken, an upgrade/update.
On November 04 2008 07:14 Ki_Do wrote: reapers seem to require a lot of timing , memorizing the bomb delays + controling them + removing them + patroling/holding them
Dude that comes with mastering the game, to learn the ins and outs of it, micro. You know like learning the delay when you told an HT to cast a storm and when it made it, you know, dude.
I don't like the Colosuss attack, It seems sub-par in my opinion. I don't like the horizontal line attack. I haven't played so I don't know how it feels controlling one, but from watching the stream it seemed to be fairly hit or miss. I feel something similar to a short burst of projectiles seems more fitting...
Units on the creep and in intense battles are hard to distinguish from an observers point of view.
Not a huge fan of the units running faster on the creep. I think something more interesting could be done.
Thor seems kind of silly... Things like the Thor and Colossus for some reason give me a command and conquer-ish feeling.... That's a very bad thing.
I'm also very worried about animations being too long and limiting the amount of micro possible. This was terrible in WC3, and if SC is like this it won't be good imo.
-please do something about the graphics. the creep is too dark and you can't see anything. the units look like they came out of a youngsters toybox so please make them meaner and tougher like they were in BW.
-the terran buildings need to look like they have been in use and not just built so please make them sharper and more human like. also the death animations are to elaborate, i'd rather see what my units are doing then watching the deaths of troops.
-for the protoss units definetly the dark templar needs to look more like an assasin and the stalker/immortal resemblance needs to be resolved. I think that attacks should be more direct and less fancy then they were.
In general blizzard just tone down the graphics so we can see whats going on and the game actually looks like Starcraft a SciFi game.
- Graphics still make the units pretty hard to see. Team colors should be the brightest, then unit brightness, and finally environment brightness. Right now it's the other way around.
- Thor needs something to make it special. I just can't see a slow lumbering mech with no special abilities being an exciting unit in any sense of the word. You can't micro it much due to its speed, and it has no heavy hitting abilities to make up for it.
- No wings on zerglings please.
- New model for infester please.
- Zerg blends in with creep too much
- Colossus also seems like a boring unit along with the Thor. I wouldn't mind giving the Colossus some limited scarabs.
- Death animations aren't very noticeable. Less focus on corpses, and more on deforming/exploding the unit so players can instantly see it's dead.
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
Is it possible that this has something to do with shift commands? As you can now shift build to stack up waypoints it's possible that the buffer for regular clicking is shorter to increase Micro.
On November 04 2008 09:36 CrimsonLotus wrote: -Please make the Colossus useful again, im sure that mass Battlecruisers were also very effective against Zerglings in SC:BW, but when you need such expensive units to one hit kill the weakest and least expensive combat unit in the game, something is not working right.
Mass Colossus is much more effective at killing zerglings than mass BC were in SC. 3 Colossus firing at once is insta-kill on Zerglings (and I believe i read roaches somewhere?). And can hit multiple.
1. no black screen of death on b.net 2. replays need to be rewindable!!! (guessing they are putting this in? its a no brainer) 3. remove automated stuff 4. make the game more e-sports friendly, including features like lan latency, pre-organized ladders that are somewhat decent, etc. 5. some of the character models look downright cartoony, make it vicious!
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
On November 04 2008 11:49 alphafuzard wrote: 1. no black screen of death on b.net 2. replays need to be rewindable!!! (guessing they are putting this in? its a no brainer) 3. remove automated stuff 4. make the game more e-sports friendly, including features like lan latency, pre-organized ladders that are somewhat decent, etc. 5. some of the character models look downright cartoony, make it vicious!
They said in an interview somewhere that because of the way replays work, it's going to be really hard if not impossible to implement rewind. They said you might have a command to start the replay at a specific point in time. I believe it was at a blizzcon interview if you want to look it up. Some of this information may be off, but I'm 90% sure they said there would not be a rewind feature.
On November 04 2008 11:49 alphafuzard wrote: 1. no black screen of death on b.net 2. replays need to be rewindable!!! (guessing they are putting this in? its a no brainer) 3. remove automated stuff 4. make the game more e-sports friendly, including features like lan latency, pre-organized ladders that are somewhat decent, etc. 5. some of the character models look downright cartoony, make it vicious!
They said in an interview somewhere that because of the way replays work, it's going to be really hard if not impossible to implement rewind. They said you might have a command to start the replay at a specific point in time. I believe it was at a blizzcon interview if you want to look it up. Some of this information may be off, but I'm 90% sure they said there would not be a rewind feature.
- Fix colossus to make it a unit instant killer like Reaver
- Change Carrier model ASAP, they promised but nothing come in blizzcon build. The recolored Tempest is not good for a Carrier. (Carriers must be more regal/royal like, be a little bit bigger, and have big hull blades)
- decide what DT model we are going to get (personally i prefer the scythe one)
On November 04 2008 09:36 CrimsonLotus wrote: -Please make the Colossus useful again, im sure that mass Battlecruisers were also very effective against Zerglings in SC:BW, but when you need such expensive units to one hit kill the weakest and least expensive combat unit in the game, something is not working right.
Mass Colossus is much more effective at killing zerglings than mass BC were in SC. 3 Colossus firing at once is insta-kill on Zerglings (and I believe i read roaches somewhere?). And can hit multiple.
Dont matter. 1 reaver +dropship cost is 400m 100 gas. 1 Colossus cost more and cant 1 hit kill anything.
Reaver+dropship is much more deadlier and maneuverable than 2 Colossus with cliff walk ability.
Why do I have to pay for SC2. What is this, the 1800's. It should be free, damn it. And if your game can't run all of its sexy, modern graphics on my 4 year old laptop, then you should buy me a knew one.
Preferably an 24" iMac.
Autographed by Julyzerg.
With iPhoto pre-filled with hundreds of photos of January. And not Facebookesque photos, but Xangaesque.
On November 04 2008 12:51 PhorClayton wrote: Why do I have to pay for SC2. What is this, the 1800's. It should be free, damn it. And if your game can't run all of its sexy, modern graphics on my 4 year old laptop, then you should buy me a knew one.
Preferably an 24" iMac.
Autographed by Julyzerg.
With iPhoto pre-filled with hundreds of photos of January. And not Facebookesque photos, but Xangaesque.
- I don't like the fences in the game. The original never had them, why are you putting them in? It's too... I hate to say it.... C&C-esque. Look here.
--- It's a god damn doodad. I'm sorry but it's a retarded complaint, it's no different from a wall --;;
It's not like you can build them yourself (that's a single player map).
what do people think of the unit voices/sounds now? last i heard them (ages ago) the toss voices were mostly corny (altho this doesn't mean they will be unattractive to spectators/nubs)
when you give a unit a command, if you have ctrl pressed at the same time the unit ignores the order, or 'attack move' overrides whatever command youve given (not sure which).
not a huge deal but kind of annoying, and as long as theres no beneficial reason for it it should be removed.
Mothership does not work too well in the game right now. The summon ability on it made the mothership useful, but now that that is gone it feels very boring and not a very good unit.
Worker Drill doesnt really work anymore, and that takes out alot of fun base defense you were able to do in sc1, It would be awesome to be able to micro workers with the same effectiveness in sc2.
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
....what a fucking scary read this is : ( I was hoping SC2 would be the next game for e-sport, not just a game that pops out and die after a few years. Dont be so fucking chicken, make SC2 as badass as SC/BW.
The truth is that i dont play any more but im still a hardcore pro scene viewer of the game. I wont play SC2 couse im finnished with gaming, but stil, people wach other sports and i like to wach SC as if i was looking at soccer - with my beers and my hot-dogs and my friends.
The way this game seems to be turning out i could just turn on Disneychannel and look at Moon-rider or what ever with my beers and my hotdogs and my sad fucking face. Hoping to eat myself to death before the next episode/game starts.
So PLEASE blizzard, take away the MBS and auto moving/mining/repearing playerfriendly stuff like that becouse you know it and i know it and everyone fucking knows it. this will just kill our love - our love called SC.
So, grew some balls and be a rolemodel. Dont just think of the money in a short period of time. Think of all the sponsordeals and freaking money you will make if SC2 becomes the first pro scene game like SC/BW is but all over the world for the next 10-50 years. You Will all be fucking legends and get more money then Bill Gates.
On November 04 2008 18:57 IdrA wrote: when you give a unit a command, if you have ctrl pressed at the same time the unit ignores the order, or 'attack move' overrides whatever command youve given (not sure which).
not a huge deal but kind of annoying, and as long as theres no beneficial reason for it it should be removed.
are you saying that ctrl click is now attack move?
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.
If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.
-Find a way to allow 2 types of gameplay and validate them, make them effective and viable oov mode players for the ones who like to outmacro the opponent and boxer mode players to the ones who like to outmicro the opponents, balance it and keep it forever in sc franchise
On November 04 2008 18:57 IdrA wrote: when you give a unit a command, if you have ctrl pressed at the same time the unit ignores the order, or 'attack move' overrides whatever command youve given (not sure which).
not a huge deal but kind of annoying, and as long as theres no beneficial reason for it it should be removed.
are you saying that ctrl click is now attack move?
i dont really know what the behavior was
i just have the habit, from sc1, of spamming ctrl+the units hotkey when im microing with the mouse and my keyboard hand isnt doing anything (just an idle habit)
but, for instance, when i was doing that with a scout worker in sc2 and i right clicked to move away from whatever was chasing it it would turn around and attack the unit instead, when i had ctrl pressed. even if i spam right clicked to move away. (i didnt realize it was ctrl at first, i thought the unit ai was just overriding me)
so i dont know the details of the behavior, but i dont see any point to it. (and a-move was still attack move)
- add the screen shortcuts (F2 F3 F4) - change creep color as said - implement drone drill - change some death animation for the multiplayer (reaper, ...)
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.
If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.
I'm not gonna comment on this feature since I haven't played the game, but your reasoning is seriously flawed.
First of all, if at some point unit pathing/AI becomes so good as to render micro obsolete, then it should DEFINITELY be broken, as it would defeat the point of playing.
Second, if SC2 was a real war then yeah, you wouldn't stand around, but guess what? SC2 is a game. As such, if it hurts the game, it should be removed. I don't know that it hurts it, so I'm not gonna say remove it just yet.
Not only that, but also you'd have to consider the fact that soldiers know which targets it's best to attack, so - following your logic - the AI should choose the optimal targets itself...
I don't like tanks firing lasers. That kinda thing should be left mostly with Protoss. It is way more badass to see them shooting shells like they did in sc1.
On November 05 2008 00:41 Bosu wrote: I don't like tanks firing lasers. That kinda thing should be left mostly with Protoss. It is way more badass to see them shooting shells like they did in sc1.
i dont remember tanks with lasers?
they had a vulture equivalent with a rail gun but i think they scrapped that.
It's part of the skill pool and. it's usually much easier to expand to an area where you can build directly at without scouting. Also learning the map is fun. And someone that knows the map instinctivly should have an edge. It takes extra time to set up expansions sometimes when you havent explored it. Sometimes frustrating to have to send that worker closer to the patches, but it's defenatly not a bad thing when someone that plays more "perfect" gets things done faster, than the person fumbeling the dark.
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.
If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.
Improved pathing is one thing, units automatically surrounding is another. I have nothing against units knowing which route to take to a destination, I love the concept of not having to babysit my units due to some map having small passages or neutral buildings blocking the route, making the AI of the units break and forcing them to dance around. However, units automatically positioning themself to always attack units is an entirely different thing. If anything, they should just stop units from dancing around trying to reach the target. Instead they should wait in place until given order to move around or the unit in front moves/dies, then continue with the previous command, unless another one is given. If the units automatically find the best angle and moves around, I'd say the amount of micro required for your units would be reduced by at least 30-40%, which is not good for a game that have already streamlined macro immensely (which is another subject that won't be discussed here). I realize you might consider this a backward move when pathing can be improved so much, but I find this a huge concern in a game that should demand alot from a player and his/her control of the units.
Seeing as there's no macro, and better AI takes care of much of the micro, I'll get my 1a2a3a fingers warmed up.
That being said:
1) Creep contrast, I can't see units. 2) I feel that increased zerg speed on creep should be turned into a 10% decreased speed for enemies - isn't creep supposed to be a mushy, nutritious mud secretion that feeds zerg buildings? 3) The Protoss nullifier looks unreasonably fragile, and reminds me of a crayfish or something. But maybe that's just me.
On November 04 2008 03:51 FrozenArbiter wrote: - The creep looks great, but units need to be more easily distinguishable when on it. Some of the darker units meld right into it (don't know if this is an issue when playing, but it was when watching the blizzcon games on the stream).
YES! I really hope they fix this. I got so confused many times while playing at BlizzCon.
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
Yeah, sounds to me like it's going too fast b/c of the LAN thing like FA said. Just hold shift down while doing this, and you'll be fine.
On November 05 2008 01:50 hiroxx wrote: what the hell is skillful about spending 5 minutes in singleplayer learning the map? any idiot can do that, plus its pointless
There are pluses to both aspects, I think having an option to turn it on or off would be nice, that way pro leagues can have it off. As far as Automatchmaking on Bnet goes, this is definitely something that would affect casuals a fair amount, so it would be good to have it the same as in BW.
I used to think of pathfinding and auto-surround as two separate issues, but what onepost says makes sense to me. It's really just one issue, how units move. We can have a healthy disagreement on how units move in SC2, but only if we address the whole issue. It seems the majority in this thread agree with the following.
On November 04 2008 19:48 sushiman wrote: Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
But I wonder if this kind of statement is useful. Probably a more meaningful question would be something like, "what is more important to you, smart pathfinding or removing auto-surround?"
(If everyone really wanted to have their cake and eat it too I suppose we could ask Blizzard to create two completely different movement algorithms, but I doubt they would seriously consider it.)
On November 04 2008 18:57 IdrA wrote: when you give a unit a command, if you have ctrl pressed at the same time the unit ignores the order, or 'attack move' overrides whatever command youve given (not sure which).
not a huge deal but kind of annoying, and as long as theres no beneficial reason for it it should be removed.
are you saying that ctrl click is now attack move?
i dont really know what the behavior was
i just have the habit, from sc1, of spamming ctrl+the units hotkey when im microing with the mouse and my keyboard hand isnt doing anything (just an idle habit)
but, for instance, when i was doing that with a scout worker in sc2 and i right clicked to move away from whatever was chasing it it would turn around and attack the unit instead, when i had ctrl pressed. even if i spam right clicked to move away. (i didnt realize it was ctrl at first, i thought the unit ai was just overriding me)
so i dont know the details of the behavior, but i dont see any point to it. (and a-move was still attack move)
Control is a subgroup modifier key, when holding it only your subgroup receives the order.
Example: You have 3 marines and 2 reapers selected. You engage some zerglings which attacks the reapers, you want the reapers to move while the marines continue firing in the zerglings. Then you press tab if the reapers are not yet highlighted to subgroup select them as if you were to use their ability and then hold control and click to move only the reapers will receive the order and the marines stay shooting.
In warcraft 3 you can disable this and you can probably do it for starcraft 2 also. If you can get used to it it probably helps micro a lot.
-Fucking kill the medivac (mediFUCK) I want some oldfashioned medics. I am in love... -Get our reaver back! I love the fatass slow bug that is just plain awesome! -Change the protoss voices and more in general please give all units cool oneliners, not a complete speech...
Why I want these changes? Because I am an old fashioned prick.
On November 05 2008 06:18 Klockan3 wrote: Control is a subgroup modifier key, when holding it only your subgroup receives the order.
Example: You have 3 marines and 2 reapers selected. You engage some zerglings which attacks the reapers, you want the reapers to move while the marines continue firing in the zerglings. Then you press tab if the reapers are not yet highlighted to subgroup select them as if you were to use their ability and then hold control and click to move only the reapers will receive the order and the marines stay shooting.
In warcraft 3 you can disable this and you can probably do it for starcraft 2 also. If you can get used to it it probably helps micro a lot.
improved pathfinding doesn't defeat sc micro, it just changes it, now it is more important to spread out units when attacking etc. the way storm has been modified is good and these principles i hope blizzard applies to other splash effects
anyway: -the nydus worm exit animation is really overdone. it should just be some spikes or something tearing a hole in .5 seconds after the transit is complete (should take longer the further you are from your hive)
-seriously WTF is with the overlord creep deposit animation? they just diarrhoeah out double ther own volume if you weren't aware, just make them drop a creep spore that grows to a certain size geez
also those advocating increasing the strength of units to differentiate them be aware that the reason starcraft is so good is because much more significant than how 'good' units were was just how different they are, resulting in very low unit redundancy.
All these MBS, auto-sorround etc should be removed from MULTIPLAYER, I don't really see a reason why we can't have an EZ mode in single-player for the casual gamers containing these. The result would be: no whining from either side.
Ugh, WHY SO MANY low count posters in here coming out of nowhere posting without understanding OP??? MINOR COMPLAINTS ONLY PLEASE!!111!!!1ELELVENEENNONE11!!! Could you guys not parrot the other guy on the internet in this thread?
On November 05 2008 01:02 ocoini wrote: It's part of the skill pool and. it's usually much easier to expand to an area where you can build directly at without scouting. Also learning the map is fun. And someone that knows the map instinctivly should have an edge. It takes extra time to set up expansions sometimes when you havent explored it. Sometimes frustrating to have to send that worker closer to the patches, but it's defenatly not a bad thing when someone that plays more "perfect" gets things done faster, than the person fumbeling the dark.
Your post is exactly why the minimap is not totally blacked out. Blacked out maps makes the game rely more on experience with a map than skill. Non blacked out maps, however, reduces your disadvantage going into a new map when your opponent knew it beforehand. Therefore, no more "I'm better than you just because I know the map and you don't".
So, yes, it reduces but does not completely eliminate the advantage of knowing a map. There still would be things like "dropping my tanks here is better". But still, non blacked out maps means you have a better chance of beating the opponent who has played the map many times with just your first time on the map. Wouldn't it feel greatly satisfying to be able to judge your skill without having to blame "I lose because I don't know the map"? Wouldn't it feel satisfying to defeat your opponent and your opponent can't give that as an excuse?
The fun of discovery part of blacked out maps however I think will remain in the single player campaigns and does fit mission where you are not provided a map especially in non-basebuilding missions. Also, practically, commanders usually don't simply go into battle without knowing the terrain or having a map on-hand.
THE LURKERS!!! Blizzard!!! THEY ARE UGLY. Their razor spine attacks look thin and not cool like before. THE LURKER IS SO UGLY. One of the coolest looking units in BW became sooo lame in the sequel.
The whole zerg look really is lacking imo... Zerglings and Lurkers look just silly.
Fix siege tank look, make it look more advanced but not ugly; it is like a god damn bunker with a huge cannon stuck on top, way too big in size compared to other units. Fix zergling look, it looks very ugly and movement animation is horrible, it should look more like dog running not bunny hopping. Fix corruptor look, it looks like tadpoles on viagra.
Just a general improvement on graphics appreciated, perhaps make HD available. WC3 graphics looks very plain and old for something like SC2.
On November 07 2008 21:58 Aerox wrote: Ugh, WHY SO MANY low count posters in here coming out of nowhere posting without understanding OP??? MINOR COMPLAINTS ONLY PLEASE!!111!!!1ELELVENEENNONE11!!!
I think the colors of SCII are a bit too bright. Maybe turn it down a notch? It looks too "colorful". I can't say because I haven't played it myself, but from the pictures, and videos that I've seen so far, the colors seem too in-your-face.
On November 07 2008 22:02 SuperJongMan wrote: THE LURKERS!!! Blizzard!!! THEY ARE UGLY. Their razor spine attacks look thin and not cool like before. THE LURKER IS SO UGLY. One of the coolest looking units in BW became sooo lame in the sequel.
The whole zerg look really is lacking imo... Zerglings and Lurkers look just silly.
I agree. By the way, didn't they say they're giving the lurker a remake on the look? What happened to that?
On November 04 2008 11:49 alphafuzard wrote: 2. replays need to be rewindable!!! (guessing they are putting this in? its a no brainer)
If you had any idea what you were talking about you would realise that replay rewinding is so difficult to the point that it is infeasible to implement.
On the blacked out minimap issue, I think Warcraft III hit the nail right on the head, and I hhope it stays that way. In War III, there are two levels of fog of war. A dark one that obscures some things, but shows major features like coast lines and gold mines, and a light one that is exactly like fog in Starcraft. You can't build in the dark fog.
Basically, you replace the blackness of Starcraft with a dark fog that shows you the basic lay of the land. I don't see any advantage at all to leaving the map totally black. it affects a small percentage of games and allows players to enjoy a wider variety of maps and utilize a wider variety of stratgies since they don't have to memorize a map to know where to drop tanks.
On November 04 2008 04:22 rushz0rz wrote: - I hate the Colossus. The idea, the model, and the name.
Did you even read the guidelines for the thread?
- I don't like the fences in the game. The original never had them, why are you putting them in? It's too... I hate to say it.... C&C-esque. Look here.
OH GOD, CnC HAD FENCES! You know CnC had tanks too, better scrap the siege tank, it's way too CnC-like. CnC.
So much for the minor complaint thread. How about the minor complaint thread that coincides with FrozenArbiter's opinion thread?
Just because this thread is for nit picking doesn't mean the nit picking can't be unfounded, irrational and flat out annoying to read. I mean, seriously, fences because CnC had fences?
Got 5 minutes... hope I didn't post this already. Some (all?) of this is in agreement with some other posters.
1. Make Colossus more fun. Give some quick kill abilities (best option IMO). Maybe make the first hit do a lot of damage, and the line do a small splash amount. That'd make it more like a reaver/tank, which are fun. Or just give it some energy/time based scarabs or missles or something. Or they are against making it a killing machine, at least make it a dancing machine... make its walk speed way faster (think reaver in a shuttle or simply the immense range of a siege tank).
2. Give me a Nighthawk irl. I love their new look (kinda looks like an arbiter actually).
3. Defiler graphics are still way better than the Infestor graphics. (Love the rest of the Zerg unit graphics, for the most part... more so than T or P actually).
4. Make probe skinnier and SCV fatter (in looks alone... keep actual sizes the same for balance).
1. Make Colossus more fun. Give some quick kill abilities (best option IMO). Maybe make the first hit do a lot of damage, and the line do a small splash amount. That'd make it more like a reaver/tank, which are fun. Or just give it some energy/time based scarabs or missles or something. Or they are against making it a killing machine, at least make it a dancing machine... make its walk speed way faster (think reaver in a shuttle or simply the immense range of a siege tank).
I've actually always wondered why there isn't a unit that has like a "turbo" ability :D It'd make much more sense for, say, a Hellion than the Colossus tho.
aaahhhh. the closer we get to sc2 the more i love brood war =D
- Another good thing they could fix are those brighty tilesets -at least in the movies they looked too brighty- that would help a lot gameplay visibility
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units
Damn! In before me!
But yeah. Remove MBS/Automine/Autosurround, yadda yadda.
Minor complaint .. and this shouldn't really be a complaint, but more of a request ... please oh please make sure the music is badass.
What I've noticed a LOT was, and I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, the non-visible attacks from like, half the units in the game. Most the ranged attacks in the game are unclear, or really, really tiny. I could hardly tell when units were firing, even mutalisks. Ingame, I'm certain it's much clearer, but from the videos I've seen, the attacks were unclear or realistically (-_-)small.
Maybe I'm insane or partially blind, but this has been irking me since the first gameplay video.
Most of the death animations are lame. One of my favorite parts of BW was the gore explosions of dying Ultralisks and whatnot. Now they just kind of keel over and sink into the ground. Some other units' deaths are too elaborate too. It's distracting and ugly.
On November 08 2008 15:50 Nintu wrote: What I've noticed a LOT was, and I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, the non-visible attacks from like, half the units in the game. Most the ranged attacks in the game are unclear, or really, really tiny. I could hardly tell when units were firing, even mutalisks. Ingame, I'm certain it's much clearer, but from the videos I've seen, the attacks were unclear or realistically (-_-)small.
Maybe I'm insane or partially blind, but this has been irking me since the first gameplay video.
yeah mostly the only ones i noticed were from the stalkers and the colossus units. i liked the stalker attack, but someone else didn't like it. since the stalker attack seemed kinda like a battlecruiser attack in that it's laser instead of energy ball...it seems like the stalker is stronger than dragoon in two ways now...an instant attack and teleporting. alot of what they need to change are graphics...but blizzard has always said that the first thing they like to get out of the way is the gameplay...so since the game isn't balanced yet they haven't really kicked the graphics into high gear yet...which is the main area people are complaining about...including me...i wouldn't complain about it but it could be noted that the warp prism has two shadows and the overlord only has one shadow.
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.
If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.
Improved pathing is one thing, units automatically surrounding is another. I have nothing against units knowing which route to take to a destination, I love the concept of not having to babysit my units due to some map having small passages or neutral buildings blocking the route, making the AI of the units break and forcing them to dance around. However, units automatically positioning themself to always attack units is an entirely different thing. If anything, they should just stop units from dancing around trying to reach the target. Instead they should wait in place until given order to move around or the unit in front moves/dies, then continue with the previous command, unless another one is given. If the units automatically find the best angle and moves around, I'd say the amount of micro required for your units would be reduced by at least 30-40%, which is not good for a game that have already streamlined macro immensely (which is another subject that won't be discussed here). I realize you might consider this a backward move when pathing can be improved so much, but I find this a huge concern in a game that should demand alot from a player and his/her control of the units.
uhm...most micro involves trying to figure out what to attack when. wasting micro on stupid unit pathing hurts the game. that means that people that go clickity click click click click click are better than those that just go clickity click click
anyway surrounding units was a big deal in wc3 because of hero units. since starcraft has no hero units it's not going to be a big deal.
On November 04 2008 04:33 XCetron wrote: In SC I could have a probe selected and do bp+leftclick +rightclick on a mineral patch and there would be a pylon warping in and my probe would be mining, all in less than a second. When playing SC2 at blizzcon, I had to wait for the probe to actually sits there and build the pylon before being able to order it to mine again, there was a delay. If I did the bp+leftclick+rightclick too quickly then the probe would just sit there and be stupid for approx .25 sec and then go back to mining, without initiating the warp for the pylon.
Yeah, sounds to me like it's going too fast b/c of the LAN thing like FA said. Just hold shift down while doing this, and you'll be fine.
New engine. No matter what Blizzard says, you and I all know that SC2, Diablo 3, WoW, and WC3 were all just modified from the same glows-too-much cartoonish-looking ooh-its-like-WoW-it-must-be-awesome engine that the lazy programmers over at Blizzard have been using for years. These aren't the same guys that produced the real gems from Blizzard's past. It shows.
On November 09 2008 12:21 garmule2 wrote: New engine. No matter what Blizzard says, you and I all know that SC2, Diablo 3, WoW, and WC3 were all just modified from the same glows-too-much cartoonish-looking ooh-its-like-WoW-it-must-be-awesome engine that the lazy programmers over at Blizzard have been using for years. These aren't the same guys that produced the real gems from Blizzard's past. It shows.
This is such a pointless complaint tho - the engine will NOT change, we are literally a few months away from beta.
Like, in what way is this a minor complaint? You are basically saying "scratch EVERYTHING, make a new engine".
Anyway, personally I think the game *looks* great, not to mention that so far, everyone I've heard from who went to blizzcon or other such events has said the graphics are great. I'm not really worried.
On November 04 2008 05:10 sushiman wrote: Autosurround. I think alot of people will agree on that one.
I don't. Besides, it can't really be removed because there is no such thing as autosurround; it's the result of improved pathfinding.
In BW, the pathfinding was for individual units, and it was such a crappy heuristic (wander around obstacles at random, increase search depth incrementally if that doesn't work) that it hardly deserved to be called pathfinding.
But in SC2, the game uses cooperating pathfinding (managing one solution for multiple units, if you prefer), seamlessly managing collisions at chokes for example (you know, what made your tanks or dragoons disperse erratically if they bumped into each other at a narrow passage, sometimes without a single unit coming out?). Naturally, it makes large groups of units surround a common target or they would all bump into each other. There is no workaround.
And frankly, I don't think there is a problem either.
There is autosurround. Units will instantly form a perfect circle around a unit if they're given the order to attack it. This even applies to workers. Maybe you don't see it as a problem, but the fact is that this greatly reduces skills required to micro. You no longer have to be careful with flanking or split up your lings to make that perfect surround of a unit; the computer will handle it for you. As it is, players will only be able to focus on defensive micro instead of both defense/offense as in original SC. It's dumbing down the game. Better pathfinding should be in the game, units reacting instantly to surround other units should not.
No, onepost is right. There is no such thing as auto-surround. The units surrounding an enemy is a result of improved pathing. An attempt to get out from behind the guy infront of them so too can attack. Units being so stupid that they stand behind each other instead of moving so they can attack would be a stupid thing to maintain.
If you were in a war and your captain told you to kill an enemy with a knife, you would not just stand their because your team mates are between you and the enemy. You would move around your friend to get to your enemy. It would be beyond stupid to break improved pathing to maintain this lack of feature.
Improved pathing is one thing, units automatically surrounding is another. I have nothing against units knowing which route to take to a destination, I love the concept of not having to babysit my units due to some map having small passages or neutral buildings blocking the route, making the AI of the units break and forcing them to dance around. However, units automatically positioning themself to always attack units is an entirely different thing. If anything, they should just stop units from dancing around trying to reach the target. Instead they should wait in place until given order to move around or the unit in front moves/dies, then continue with the previous command, unless another one is given. If the units automatically find the best angle and moves around, I'd say the amount of micro required for your units would be reduced by at least 30-40%, which is not good for a game that have already streamlined macro immensely (which is another subject that won't be discussed here). I realize you might consider this a backward move when pathing can be improved so much, but I find this a huge concern in a game that should demand alot from a player and his/her control of the units.
[Emphasis added]
I know this is completely counterintuitive to anybody but a software developer familiar with pathfinding, but it really is the same thing. For the pathfinding algorithm, allied units are obstacles just like terrain and doodads, with the exception that allied units can move, hence make way for one another. The surrounding behavior is exactly that: allied units going around one another, or making way for one another, to reach the same target.
The consequence of this is that you have to choose between the old and the new behavior, without possible compromise; the pathfinding is cooperative or it isn't. What do you prefer then? Units surrounding targets, or bumping into each other and getting stuck at chokes? I definitely prefer the former, and I would maintain my choice even if I considered surround a bad thing, which I don't.
Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?
Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?
Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)
WC3 still has the "YOU FUCKING RETARDED UNIT STOP GOING THAT WAY" kind of feeling, but certainly far better than sc. Also as far as surrounds go, its not too hard because the units are much bigger...especially like..bears while as sc units..SEEM smaller(haven't played it yet either) oh and uhh come out with beta
On November 10 2008 14:19 FrozenArbiter wrote: Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?
Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?
Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)
About the two zealots guarding the ramp: it seems possible. I'd more or less dictate the engine to not move if they're on stop or hold position. It might require some tweaking though, if you insist on stop, but hold position is easy.
WC3 pathfinding: Non-cooperative pathfinding might be adequate for WC3, but then it has many less units, and the maps are very different as well. If what I read about SC2 is correct, and it will have even larger armies than SC:BW, then it would be a disaster!
Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it.
Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it
I am on a roll, you guys must be thinking I hate everything blizzard is up too, but honestly I am just soo much better at being negative than positive!
All books in the starcraft universe suck, they do not live up to the story made in the games itself, the books should be non-canon.
On November 10 2008 14:19 FrozenArbiter wrote: Meh, having not actually played it yet I don't know if it's actually a big deal or not, but if it is.. War3s pathfinding was fine, no? And they don't surround automatically, although probably more effeciently than in BW, so couldn't they just "break" their pathfinding slightly and have it be like that?
Btw, I'm not sure from your post, but say I put 2 zealots on my ramp and then try to move a 3rd past them - in the current SC2 build my 2 zealots will move out of the way without me doing anything (I'm assuming if I put hold position they wont.. at least if they know what's good for them ;p). Is this impossible to change without changing everything else?
Can't you program in exceptions somehow ? (I know nothing about this stuff)
About the two zealots guarding the ramp: it seems possible. I'd more or less dictate the engine to not move if they're on stop or hold position. It might require some tweaking though, if you insist on stop, but hold position is easy.
WC3 pathfinding: Non-cooperative pathfinding might be adequate for WC3, but then it has many less units, and the maps are very different as well. If what I read about SC2 is correct, and it will have even larger armies than SC:BW, then it would be a disaster!
Auto-surround: It really is impossible. Every time I think of an heuristic to isolate those cases, it breaks something else. Like it or not, you'll have to live with it.
The thing with the zealots would be simple. As it is now, the engine creates the path not only from the unit being ordered to move, but it also tells other allied units to help out, pathing as a team. A simple fix would be, as you say, to just tell the engine not to mess with units on stop or hold.
As for the auto-surround: Yes, this is also possible to "fix". Of course you can make the pathfinder dumber, but it just seems so silly to me to do so. I believe modern games must find other ways to measure skill than by fighting the machine. Fix what already works because otherwise you'll never get anything better. Blizzard's challenge is to find the middle ground between the game being played in assembler and the game playing itself. I have faith that they can make an easy to learn, intuitive game that doesn't make me cry because my dragoons are steered by "special" protoss, but that is still impossible to master. Gaming joy without the chores of bending over backwards to make the computer understand what I want.
Edit: I also want the original Jim Raynor back. And I dun like teh medivac. Medics please, we still have roaches that can catfight forever (not even running out of mana) anyway.
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units
Your first statement is true. Zerglings are hurt by ranged units. But why would you say that roaches mixed with zerglings will draw the fire of ranged units? The zerglings will be closer to the enemy and targeted. Ultralisks are good at absorbing damage cause you can send them in with the lings but roaches will stand behind the lings and attack with their wimpy attack.
It is still a bad design for an attack absorbing unit.
Roaches will only successfully draw fire in the way you would like if they were part of an army with no melee units.
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units
Your first statement is true. Zerglings are hurt by ranged units. But why would you say that roaches mixed with zerglings will draw the fire of ranged units? The zerglings will be closer to the enemy and targeted. Ultralisks are good at absorbing damage cause you can send them in with the lings but roaches will stand behind the lings and attack with their wimpy attack.
It is still a bad design for an attack absorbing unit.
Roaches will only successfully draw fire in the way you would like if they were part of an army with no melee units.
You can move in the roaches just before the zerglings. And AI has a targetpriority. Ultras and mutas have targetpriority over lings. AFAIK. A unit keeps firing a the same target until its dead or out of range.
On November 04 2008 04:35 Savio wrote: Make Roach Melee
Explanation:
The purpose of the roach is to absorb damage in lower mineral situations so other units can get the kills. However, their design runs completely counter to their purpose.
Please make the roach a melee unit. That way they can actually absorb damage that would have just killed the zerglings who currently run past the roaches to attack.
A units design should not nullify its purpose. The design should bolster/strengthen its purpose.
This is not a major change since the stats could be the same and the attack animation would be very easy to change.
you're wrong. zerglings' worst enemies aren't melee units, they're ranged units. so the roaches will successfully draw the fire of ranged units
Your first statement is true. Zerglings are hurt by ranged units. But why would you say that roaches mixed with zerglings will draw the fire of ranged units? The zerglings will be closer to the enemy and targeted. Ultralisks are good at absorbing damage cause you can send them in with the lings but roaches will stand behind the lings and attack with their wimpy attack.
It is still a bad design for an attack absorbing unit.
Roaches will only successfully draw fire in the way you would like if they were part of an army with no melee units.
It is not an absorbing tank, having your enemy units focus on your roaches would make the regeneration ability worthless which means that it is more cost effective and space effective to tank with lings in that case and their attack ain't wimpy at all, they would almost win vs a zealot even if they did not have their regen ability.
They are not tanks, they are ranged units which can tank in some occasions due to their ability and nothing else.
sorry for the bump but this is the appropriate thread:
Whenever I see a VOD of SC2, player or observer, the movement of the screen has acceleration on it, much like many other modern RTSes. I HATE THIS. I REALLY REALLY HATE IT. And most modern RTSes conveniently do not provide an option to TURN IT THE FUCK OFF ASDFA. It would be really really nice if the game provided such an option because it's such a pain to deal with and honestly despite making it easier for newbies who have bad mouse control to control the viewport i don't make mistakes of that nature and i'm cool with it if the camera does not accelerate and works like sc or wc2 camera okay? I was watching starcraft 2 vods and i noticed it and i wanted to punch myself for not remembering and posting about it before.
Animations - shorter, or remove some of them HP Bar - make it shorter Xel'Naga towers - make them destroyable, but with high armor, so you need significant time and/or force to destroy them. Limit the resolution - big resolution=smaller units; Could create problems for boardcasted games for example. Redo the Colossus attack animation Some units feel like they weight 10 tones, its like steering ancient ships, units should feel lighter, easier to control. Again this has to do with starting to move animation and/or actual responce times.
I still think having different tabs for different conversations is better, and shouldn't be too hard to implement. It should be a standard by now, tbh.
On April 14 2009 00:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: Bumping this because I just realized something that annoys me about WC3 bnet compared to SC bnet: The lack of tab functionality!
In SC bnet you can just use the tab key to save you from having to repeatedly type in long ass ids when /w:ing >_<
WoW has a /r command that automatically responds to whoever whispered you last. I hope this is included as well.
On November 04 2008 04:22 rushz0rz wrote: The Protoss voices seem too computerized- they don't have the conviction and malice.
This is probably my biggest minor complaint (if that makes any sense). I always imagined the Protoss race as really tall, advanced aliens who waged war with a mixture of their warriors and their machines. Now, it feels like mostly just machines, and a few warriors.
It's not easy to explain, but I'll try to do it anyway: - The Stalker feels more like a machine than the Dragoon. With the Dragoon, you had a protoss warrior living inside this mechanical shell, sorta kinda like a bionic warrior; the stalker just looks like a robot.
- The reaver was unmistakably a machine, but at least its form and the sounds it made gave the impression of this big, cuddly machine of destruction. The colossus... it's just alien. A big robot.
- A protoss ground army with a few support air units could be very powerful and hard to stop in Starcraft; zealots, dragoons and templars with observers and arbiters for instance. In SC2, that doesn't seem to be the case- in Battle Report 1, the Terran's unit mix of Marauders, Hellions and Banshees couldn't be dealt with very well with just ground units, and the commentators correctly pointed out the Protoss should've made Warp Rays or Phoenix + Colossi. Making a bunch of air units (which have an unmistakable robotic feel to them) a standard part of the Protoss army only helps to make the protoss army as a whole feel less alive and more mechanized.
- The SC1 DT looked like a Ninja, with this psionic weapon he made himself. The Zer'atai Tribe DT looks... more armored, has this large crafted weapon, and its portrait looks like an armored bug. Again, the overall feeling is less of a crafty stealth warrior and more of a bulky, armored cyborg with a cloaking device. Less natural.
In general, the feeling of this technologically advanced warrior race with robotic support units was replaced by this race of robots that puzzlingly has zealots and high templar.
EDIT: In a scale that goes from 'This unit feels completely natural' to 'This unit feels completely robotic', a cyborg would be somewhere in the middle. Making sort-of-cyborgs look more like robots, and making very natural-looking units look more like cyborgs, makes the race generally feel more robotic.
On April 14 2009 00:28 FrozenArbiter wrote: Bumping this because I just realized something that annoys me about WC3 bnet compared to SC bnet: The lack of tab functionality!
In SC bnet you can just use the tab key to save you from having to repeatedly type in long ass ids when /w:ing >_<
WoW has a /r command that automatically responds to whoever whispered you last. I hope this is included as well.
On November 04 2008 23:50 FrozenArbiter wrote: First of all, if at some point unit pathing/AI becomes so good as to render micro obsolete, then it should DEFINITELY be broken, as it would defeat the point of playing.
I don't see how this could happen. Micromanagement goes beyond telling your units manually to not clutter up in front of the enemy, but rather for the ones in the back to go around and surround it; it involves choosing your battles carefully, retreating, harassing, telling wounded units to back off, using abilities at the right place at the right time.
Just like you can run away from Reaver scarabs in Starcraft, you can run from Hunter Seeker missiles in SC2; you could use Hold Position Lurker traps in Starcraft, you can create burrowed baneling traps in SC2; you could micro range upgraded dragoons vs. marines in Starcraft, and you can micro stalkers vs. roaches in SC2.
Most of the micromanagement in Starcraft cannot possibly be rendered obsolete through improved pathing.
This thread is hard to read. Sounds like massive crying by people who haven't even played.
And I know its labeled as such, but its still hard to fucking read. The surround complaint is especially stupid considering the majority of units are ranged, die super fast, are small, THERE ARE NO HEROES IN THIS GAME etc etc.
On April 14 2009 10:21 keV. wrote: The surround complaint is especially stupid considering the majority of units are ranged, die super fast, are small, THERE ARE NO HEROES IN THIS GAME etc etc.
Sure there are! Just not in multiplayer. Thankfully.
Get rid of the Mothership if it is still available for use in multiplayer. It has no place and will upset the balance in a game that is oriented towards large scale, mass army type RTS.
On April 14 2009 12:10 bubblegumbo wrote: Get rid of the Mothership if it is still available for use in multiplayer. It has no place and will upset the balance in a game that is oriented towards large scale, mass army type RTS.
Do you even know what the Mothership does? The only ability I'm more or less certain it still has, is a cloaking field- much like the Arbiter's in SC1, although it works on ground units and buildings apparantly. Why would you say it will upset the balance if the Arbiter doesn't in SC1?
Oh, the Mothership is also about as mighty and as expensive as a Battlecruiser, in terms of health and damage.
On November 04 2008 04:22 rushz0rz wrote: The Protoss voices seem too computerized- they don't have the conviction and malice.
This is probably my biggest minor complaint (if that makes any sense). I always imagined the Protoss race as really tall, advanced aliens who waged war with a mixture of their warriors and their machines. Now, it feels like mostly just machines, and a few warriors.
It's not easy to explain, but I'll try to do it anyway: - The Stalker feels more like a machine than the Dragoon. With the Dragoon, you had a protoss warrior living inside this mechanical shell, sorta kinda like a bionic warrior; the stalker just looks like a robot.
- The reaver was unmistakably a machine, but at least its form and the sounds it made gave the impression of this big, cuddly machine of destruction. The colossus... it's just alien. A big robot.
- A protoss ground army with a few support air units could be very powerful and hard to stop in Starcraft; zealots, dragoons and templars with observers and arbiters for instance. In SC2, that doesn't seem to be the case- in Battle Report 1, the Terran's unit mix of Marauders, Hellions and Banshees couldn't be dealt with very well with just ground units, and the commentators correctly pointed out the Protoss should've made Warp Rays or Phoenix + Colossi. Making a bunch of air units (which have an unmistakable robotic feel to them) a standard part of the Protoss army only helps to make the protoss army as a whole feel less alive and more mechanized.
- The SC1 DT looked like a Ninja, with this psionic weapon he made himself. The Zer'atai Tribe DT looks... more armored, has this large crafted weapon, and its portrait looks like an armored bug. Again, the overall feeling is less of a crafty stealth warrior and more of a bulky, armored cyborg with a cloaking device. Less natural.
In general, the feeling of this technologically advanced warrior race with robotic support units was replaced by this race of robots that puzzlingly has zealots and high templar.
EDIT: In a scale that goes from 'This unit feels completely natural' to 'This unit feels completely robotic', a cyborg would be somewhere in the middle. Making sort-of-cyborgs look more like robots, and making very natural-looking units look more like cyborgs, makes the race generally feel more robotic.
I agree in as much as I liked the warriors supported by machines feel. It does fit with the lore well though. They are a dwindling race, what they lack in numbers they are trying to make up for with technology.
On April 15 2009 17:50 Faraday wrote: Just one minor coplaint for now :
-I hate those DarkTemplar sticks they use, and the way they attack....Please change the weapon and the attack animation, and make it more deadly-ish!
...I mean...those DT-s look like sissies, they are "petting" those probes with those ugly-ass sticks, nothing RAW about it.Reminds me of WC3.
WarCraft III did NOT have scythes! -.-
On April 16 2009 00:46 SCC-Bean wrote: Do Marines still use bayonets and shields?
The bayonets were removed and merely served as eyecandy even when they were present. However, they still have shields, which represent their health upgrade. For some reason, Blizzard insists that passive upgrades require a visual representation :/ (although I would still imagine much better options then shields for that).
On April 15 2009 17:50 Faraday wrote: Just one minor coplaint for now :
-I hate those DarkTemplar sticks they use, and the way they attack....Please change the weapon and the attack animation, and make it more deadly-ish!
...I mean...those DT-s look like sissies, they are "petting" those probes with those ugly-ass sticks, nothing RAW about it.Reminds me of WC3.
WarCraft III did NOT have scythes! -.-
Dude, the new DT animation is taken directly from the Demon Hunter hero in Warcraft 3. That's why it reminds him of wac3.
He was specifically reffering to the "stick" Dark Templar use and then mentioned how it reminds him of WarCraft III. While he did mention the attack animation as well, the weapon was also a part of his argument.
As for the animation. While I do not think it is horrible, I do not feel like it is very fitting for the type of weapon the Dark Templar is using. It feels like he is only using one part of the weapon instead of both. Perhaps he should at least once spin the scythe so it feels like he is using both blades.
I don't know what you're getting at, but the entire post you referenced is just a rant with little back-up. It assumes I'm with him when I'm really not. Most of what he ranted about was how we get so little game for our money, but in reality it's just like having a normal SC2 with 10 missions to each (seeing as there will be 26-30 single player missions in each game) race with three expansions with upgrades and new units, just one more expansion than the current SC. This is like saying that we should be pissed because games have expansions that upgrade the game: we have to pay more. Damn right you do, it's twice the game. Of course I'm already repeating what I've read countless times in this forum...
ON TOPIC, the dark templar isn't so bad. It's got the grim reaper feeling to it (obviously) and the zealots have pretty much taken the 'ninja' role. If they amend the attack animations and perhaps tone it down a little, it would be a nice assassin like unit. ATM any major changes in the direction you all propose will end up having two of the same unit: a zealot with cloaking+extra damage and a zealot without those things. The shields on the marines do make sense when fighting a zerg enemy who fires projectiles at you most of the time with crazy coked up mutated dogs tearing at your flesh. I wouldn't mind a shield in that situation. On the other hand, I was under the impression that protoss can just dissolve your shit. Not like realism was playing a great role in the development of this though... lol..
Inside look lol? That whole thing is just a big rant with no sources (save for the joystiq interview which was not related to his point). He has no source for the $60/game price point. No source for Activision's role in the trilogy decision. Its would be a stretch to call it an editorial much less an article; its no better than any other random negative knee-jerk reaction forum post. The whole thing is based on uninformed speculation to reach a forgone conclusion that makes an easy scapegoat out of endlessly criticized Activision for what ultimately is a non-issue . Anyways this is the wrong place for this, I don't know why I wrote this lol.
Anyways, my minor complaints/suggestions!
- Switch the attack animation for roach and hydra. That green acidy spray totally belongs to hydra! Spikes I think would look great for roach anyways.
- Rename the roach. Give it something unique! Come on, bread and butter attack units deserve zerg lore/theme based names - zergling, hydralisk, mutalisk, ultralisk. I can see Roach for maybe a caster or specialty unit, but if its going to play as big a role as it seems, give it a lore name with a nice -lisk or -ling.
- I think the Colosus can use a new attack animation. There was a thread on this a couple months back, but there was some lack of interest I guess. These concept images from the second page (all credit to InRaged) were exactly what I had in mind.
It doesn't have to be exactly like any of these (my favorite is the second), just something in the general theme I think would work really well. Keep in mind it would only be an animation change if they wanted, the mechanics could remain the same.
Some of the benefits of this change: First - it will make the Colossus a very unique unit: you see those spider walkers things with laser beams in all kinds of sci-fi works.. but how many have bomb attacks like that! Second, it just seems like a more natural evolution from the reaver this way - from a lore standpoint it makes a lot of sense that some of the reaver's downsides were reengineered, and after some tradeoffs, the Colossus was born. Third, it makes the other laser using mobs (warp ray and nullifier I think?) more unique units. Finally, there are a number of interesting changes they could do with mechanics this way if they wanted to: delayed explosions, quick fire explosions, different explosion patterns, etc.
I feel its a total shame this concept was not given more discussion. Once again, all credit to InRaged for the GIFs from that thread.
Some of the benefits of this change: First - it will make the Colossus a very unique unit: you see those spider walkers things with laser beams in all kinds of sci-fi works.. but how many have bomb attacks like that! Second, it just seems like a more natural evolution from the reaver this way - from a lore standpoint it makes a lot of sense that some of the reaver's downsides were reengineered, and after some tradeoffs, the Colossus was born. Third, it makes the other laser using mobs (warp ray and nullifier I think?) more unique units. Finally, there are a number of interesting changes they could do with mechanics this way if they wanted to: delayed explosions, quick fire explosions, different explosion patterns, etc.
I feel its a total shame this concept was not given more discussion. Once again, all credit to InRaged for the GIFs from that thread.
In order for this to work out lore-wise, they would have to contradict what they've already released on the collussus. What they have said makes sense with the movie they were apparantly based on: war of the worlds in that the collosi were near ancient technology hidden on planets for later use, but, like the mothership, has been recalled in times of great need for the protoss. It's old, to say the least.
Ah I see. I wasn't terribly familiar with the lore. I hope that the lore doesn't prevent them from rethinking gameplay decisions though, in the end it is still a game and that should be #1. You can always rewrite the lore and just a simple difference in attack animation wouldn't require that much explanation. As an example, they could leave most the same and say they just fitted the ancient technology with some improvements from their reaver design to deal with the current threats. Or thats just how they always worked (screw linking it to war of the worlds!) Anyways, the point is it fits better with the game Starcraft and the reaver design, even if not with the lore behind it.
Its possible its too late to make a change like that though if that lore aspect is already deep in the game story line (I imagine a mission where they get that technology is almost guaranteed). Hopefully not, I like it better!
Some of the benefits of this change: First - it will make the Colossus a very unique unit: you see those spider walkers things with laser beams in all kinds of sci-fi works.. but how many have bomb attacks like that! Second, it just seems like a more natural evolution from the reaver this way - from a lore standpoint it makes a lot of sense that some of the reaver's downsides were reengineered, and after some tradeoffs, the Colossus was born. Third, it makes the other laser using mobs (warp ray and nullifier I think?) more unique units. Finally, there are a number of interesting changes they could do with mechanics this way if they wanted to: delayed explosions, quick fire explosions, different explosion patterns, etc.
I feel its a total shame this concept was not given more discussion. Once again, all credit to InRaged for the GIFs from that thread.
In order for this to work out lore-wise, they would have to contradict what they've already released on the collussus. What they have said makes sense with the movie they were apparantly based on: war of the worlds in that the collosi were near ancient technology hidden on planets for later use, but, like the mothership, has been recalled in times of great need for the protoss. It's old, to say the least.
Well, its old, but by no means it was kept hidden in planets for later use, the protoss used these killing machines in the aeon of strife, and after seeing millions of their bretheren killed by it, they banned it because it was "too effective", here is a historical refence.
On April 17 2009 20:16 omninmo wrote: im still really upset that this game will not have LAN capability. that is just unacceptable
LAN play = piratable multiplayer play. Forcing battlenet stops illegal copies to play online (which basically destroys the game for them). While the potential lag is a downside, the fact that this is being coded now (not back in the SC1 days) means that lag compensation will be alot better.
I have probably purchased SC1 about 8 times so far because i'm a shocker when it comes to loosing cd keys. These days I do run a copy of SC on 2 computers at my place and 3 at friends and we all play multiplayer using lan mode. I don't feel that I am ripping blizz off for this becuase of how many times we have all purchased the game.
edit: And as you can probably tell from teh way the blizzard accounts and battle net are going, there is a 99% chance that they will be emulating the steam approach to online gaming. You can log into your battlenet/blizzard account from any computer anywhere, download the game then play. So my lack of cd key storage ability will be fine
On April 17 2009 20:16 omninmo wrote: im still really upset that this game will not have LAN capability. that is just unacceptable
LAN play = piratable multiplayer play. Forcing battlenet stops illegal copies to play online (which basically destroys the game for them). While the potential lag is a downside, the fact that this is being coded now (not back in the SC1 days) means that lag compensation will be alot better.
I
Yea because it's a totally good idea to alienate some of the most important playerbase you have in the korean (and even some US) offline cafe gaming. Really good marketing strategy there. I expect they'd lose more money not putting LAN in than from pirates but that's just me.
People will find a way to mod the game to pirate it offline MP wise anyway i'm sure, they've done it for every other game.
In BR2 I seriously didn't like how Terran Bunker was burning, the fire was way too different than coloring/shading of the bunker and terrain around it itself. It just felt like weirdly animated. I would love to see that change.
As for LAN, I agree that it's pretty dumb; however, for things such as televised league play, I think it's likely Blizzard will provide them with their own server for such cases. I assume that you'll be able to play on LAN through Battle.net, or something. Similar to how Steam does it. I used to play CS LAN with my roommates, but the Internet had to be on (which was annoying, since we mostly played LAN when the Internet was down...)
Anyway, Blizzard provided a number of WoW tournaments with a server so they can play their arena matches; I don't see why they couldn't do the same for the Korean leagues, and major events (WCG, etc.)
I fully agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, however; people will be buying the game in record numbers, they shouldn't have to worry about pirating.
I also really like that above Colossus idea; it feels a lot more Protoss-y, and keeping "scarb" like animation/attack is a lot better than lasers.
No LAN? No problem! I give it 3 days until a user-created patch allows LAN play.
Blizzard's been screwing up hardcore lately. First suing a bot-maker for $2 million, then deciding no LAN in SC2? Seems like they're going down the idiot-executive path that 'more security is better', when really any market analyst can tell you that pirating actually increases overall sales because more people get your game. Most pirates won't buy it regardless. As for the bot-maker they sued, it was just a smart human being compensating for piss-poor game mechanics in WoW that people hate. More people played because that bot existed. Bad idea Blizzard.
In fact I see this thinking extending into SC2 - a dependence on cliched, uninspired, ripoff ideas. Not good ones, like in SC1 (all the obscure references like the Battlecruiser being the SDF-1 from Robotech), but bad ripoffs, like the Dark Templar being from WoW. Lame.
Where I go to school they'd refer to Blizzard's thinking these days as 'wealth preservation' as opposed to 'value creation'. The imagination, creativity, and positive contribution to human thought is gone, replaced by money-grubbers.
First thing- as it was just pointed out, that is most definitely not an inside look into the 'trilogy issue'. It's just a dishonest rant from some guy who doesn't like the idea.
Turning a $60 game to a $180 game? What's he smoking? Starcraft came in two installments: Vanilla, then Brood Wars. Starcraft 2 will come in 3 installments. I can't see how shifting from two installments to three installments will triple the price.
Also, as to the complaint of DTs attack animation being ripped from the Demon Hunter-
So what if it was? It's most likely a placeholder with something they already had while they're making the DT's actual attack animation.
On April 28 2009 10:56 geno wrote: - Switch the attack animation for roach and hydra. That green acidy spray totally belongs to hydra! Spikes I think would look great for roach anyways.
Not a fan. If you've read the lore behind the hydralisk, you'll notice it shoots spines, not goo. I'd much rather the animations stayed as they are.
That said- did Blizzard confirm no LAN game mode for SC2? I'll be very disappointed in them if they have.
Some of the benefits of this change: First - it will make the Colossus a very unique unit: you see those spider walkers things with laser beams in all kinds of sci-fi works.. but how many have bomb attacks like that! Second, it just seems like a more natural evolution from the reaver this way - from a lore standpoint it makes a lot of sense that some of the reaver's downsides were reengineered, and after some tradeoffs, the Colossus was born. Third, it makes the other laser using mobs (warp ray and nullifier I think?) more unique units. Finally, there are a number of interesting changes they could do with mechanics this way if they wanted to: delayed explosions, quick fire explosions, different explosion patterns, etc.
I feel its a total shame this concept was not given more discussion. Once again, all credit to InRaged for the GIFs from that thread.
In order for this to work out lore-wise, they would have to contradict what they've already released on the collussus. What they have said makes sense with the movie they were apparantly based on: war of the worlds in that the collosi were near ancient technology hidden on planets for later use, but, like the mothership, has been recalled in times of great need for the protoss. It's old, to say the least.
Well, its old, but by no means it was kept hidden in planets for later use, the protoss used these killing machines in the aeon of strife, and after seeing millions of their bretheren killed by it, they banned it because it was "too effective", here is a historical refence.
I looked up the unit profile on 'Starcraft2.com' and this is what I got:
'At the time, the Conclave outlawed the manufacture of colossi, and existing machines were deactivated before being sealed away in distant asteroids and uninhabited moons. Centuries later the war against the zerg has brought forth these engines of destruction to do battle once more.'
On April 28 2009 10:56 geno wrote: - Switch the attack animation for roach and hydra. That green acidy spray totally belongs to hydra! Spikes I think would look great for roach anyways.
Not a fan. If you've read the lore behind the hydralisk, you'll notice it shoots spines, not goo. I'd much rather the animations stayed as they are.
Well, I'm not big into lore, but did they have picture of the spines? Did they look green and acidy like they were in the game?
Theoretically they're too fast to see, but yeah, they definitely shoot spines, not acid. Ever wondered why the upgrade says something about spines? (I don't play zerg >_>)
I wish their were less terran animations, it seems like every unit and building has some kind special lift off procedure or jump pack or something, what ever happened to just move
On April 29 2009 13:41 cz wrote: Rename it Warcraft IV, because that's what it looks and appears to feel like.
It does not look anything like warcraft. There are more than enough distinct, if not obvious differences that are near impossible to miss unless you like to troll. I don't know how you know what the game feels like seeing as you haven't played it yet.
On April 29 2009 04:12 garmule2 wrote: Where I go to school they'd refer to Blizzard's thinking these days as 'wealth preservation' as opposed to 'value creation'. The imagination, creativity, and positive contribution to human thought is gone, replaced by money-grubbers.
Ya know, not that I completely disagree with this sentiment, I agree with it to a point to be honest, but Blizzard has never been a very original game developer. Their strength, and a big reason for their success, has always been to look at their industry, to look at and analyze other games in the marketplace, both their own games and those of others and consistently be able to identify reasons for the success and failure of other games. And even within that framework to identify specific aspects of other games that are good and others that are bad.
To say this another way, Blizzard has always been good at constructing high quality games by taking a little bit from game A a little from game B, a dash from game C and so on and so forth and intelligently combining them to make one high quality product. There is very little in any of their games that hasn't been pulled, either blatantly or more subtly, from some other game in the marketplace. This is not a "bad" thing, its just that they've never at any point been particularly original.
On April 29 2009 04:12 garmule2 wrote: Where I go to school they'd refer to Blizzard's thinking these days as 'wealth preservation' as opposed to 'value creation'. The imagination, creativity, and positive contribution to human thought is gone, replaced by money-grubbers.
Ya know, not that I completely disagree with this sentiment, I agree with it to a point to be honest, but Blizzard has never been a very original game developer. Their strength, and a big reason for their success, has always been to look at their industry, to look at and analyze other games in the marketplace, both their own games and those of others and consistently be able to identify reasons for the success and failure of other games. And even within that framework to identify specific aspects of other games that are good and others that are bad.
To say this another way, Blizzard has always been good at constructing high quality games by taking a little bit from game A a little from game B, a dash from game C and so on and so forth and intelligently combining them to make one high quality product. There is very little in any of their games that hasn't been pulled, either blatantly or more subtly, from some other game in the marketplace. This is not a "bad" thing, its just that they've never at any point been particularly original.
exactly. I don't mind playing something that's been done before if it's really good.
On April 29 2009 18:38 nataziel wrote: Theoretically they're too fast to see, but yeah, they definitely shoot spines, not acid. Ever wondered why the upgrade says something about spines? (I don't play zerg >_>)
I'm well aware of the wording of the upgrade. But I think how it actually looked in the game is infinitely more important. They can call it a "spine" attack in SC2 as well for all I care, as long as it looks like the green acidy attack I've come to know and love.
Don't like the roach's name. All the zerg units in BW had either consistent made up names (*lisks) or something that described what they did (though it was a stretch sometimes). None of them were named after terrestrial bugs, particularly bugs I hate and whose name sounds awful. I don't really want to use roaches
On May 01 2009 07:14 MamiyaOtaru wrote: Don't like the roach's name. All the zerg units in BW had either consistent made up names (*lisks) or something that described what they did (though it was a stretch sometimes). None of them were named after terrestrial bugs, particularly bugs I hate and whose name sounds awful. I don't really want to use roaches
Zerg are disgusting mutations, they're not supposed to sound nice and clean ^.^
I'm sure this has already been brought up before, but zergling movement really needs to be fixed. In BR2, they looked ridiculous. They all turn as if they pivot on the tip of the their long tail and they swing to the side as if on a hinge. And when they move all together it looks even worse.
I don't know what is up with this because I just went back and looked at the very first SC2 video released and the lings moved very nicely as a swarm rather than as silly synchronized dancers (moving limbs together at the same time and keeping a perfect formation).
To show that I am not just a negative person, here is something I LOVED from BR2. The hatchery looked simply amazing. Probably my biggest complaint when I first saw the zerg was that the hatcheries/lairs/hives just looked really bad. But now they blend in very nicely with the creep and the tentacles/webbing is amazing. Also the animation of the mutating buildings is sick! In soooo many ways the Zerg look beautiful. Only in the current movement of the lings am I disappointed.
EDIT: To illustrate the difference between the bad model for the old hatchery and the cool new one, look that the difference in look between the hatchery and the spawning pool in BR2. The hatchery looks cool but the spawning pool still looks like a toy that was dropped on to the creep but isn't actually attached to it. I am sure this is just because they haven't gotten around to changing the pool yet, but the hatchery makes me so happy to know that they are planning on fixing ALL the Zerg buildings.
Inside look lol? That whole thing is just a big rant with no sources (save for the joystiq interview which was not related to his point). He has no source for the $60/game price point. No source for Activision's role in the trilogy decision. Its would be a stretch to call it an editorial much less an article; its no better than any other random negative knee-jerk reaction forum post. The whole thing is based on uninformed speculation to reach a forgone conclusion that makes an easy scapegoat out of endlessly criticized Activision for what ultimately is a non-issue . Anyways this is the wrong place for this, I don't know why I wrote this lol.
Anyways, my minor complaints/suggestions!
- Switch the attack animation for roach and hydra. That green acidy spray totally belongs to hydra! Spikes I think would look great for roach anyways.
- Rename the roach. Give it something unique! Come on, bread and butter attack units deserve zerg lore/theme based names - zergling, hydralisk, mutalisk, ultralisk. I can see Roach for maybe a caster or specialty unit, but if its going to play as big a role as it seems, give it a lore name with a nice -lisk or -ling.
- I think the Colosus can use a new attack animation. There was a thread on this a couple months back, but there was some lack of interest I guess. These concept images from the second page (all credit to InRaged) were exactly what I had in mind.
It doesn't have to be exactly like any of these (my favorite is the second), just something in the general theme I think would work really well. Keep in mind it would only be an animation change if they wanted, the mechanics could remain the same.
Some of the benefits of this change: First - it will make the Colossus a very unique unit: you see those spider walkers things with laser beams in all kinds of sci-fi works.. but how many have bomb attacks like that! Second, it just seems like a more natural evolution from the reaver this way - from a lore standpoint it makes a lot of sense that some of the reaver's downsides were reengineered, and after some tradeoffs, the Colossus was born. Third, it makes the other laser using mobs (warp ray and nullifier I think?) more unique units. Finally, there are a number of interesting changes they could do with mechanics this way if they wanted to: delayed explosions, quick fire explosions, different explosion patterns, etc.
I feel its a total shame this concept was not given more discussion. Once again, all credit to InRaged for the GIFs from that thread.
OMFG I have been imagining something like this for months. Blizzard should definitely consider this.
On April 29 2009 18:38 nataziel wrote: Theoretically they're too fast to see, but yeah, they definitely shoot spines, not acid. Ever wondered why the upgrade says something about spines? (I don't play zerg >_>)
Both of you guys are right, really. The spines are the real projectiles, but the green goo is the gunpowder. In either case the lack of SPLOIT in SC2 feels like fail to me.
On May 01 2009 11:16 Savio wrote: I'm sure this has already been brought up before, but zergling movement really needs to be fixed
Lings moved that way since the very beginning, check the cinematics of the original Starcraft and of Broodwar campaign. It's sort of like their distinct movement pattern; personally I like it, but if I will see that on any other unit it would look bad beyond words, Warcrap Cartoons all over again.
On second thought, I hate everything. It should be starcraft 1 with better graphics. Actually, no, because the graphics are so like that one game that everyone dislikes. Maybe try making it look moar 2d and less modern. Yeah, go for the 'this looks like shit' look. If you really must make a new game I guess you should at least have all the old animations too, anything new is bad. You know what, fuck it, I actually think they should quit because they just want my money, which for some reason comes as a great surprise to me. I feel like joining the military and throwing a fake puppy off a cliff atm...
On May 02 2009 07:55 Skeptic wrote: On second thought, I hate everything. It should be starcraft 1 with better graphics. Actually, no, because the graphics are so like that one game that everyone dislikes. Maybe try making it look moar 2d and less modern. Yeah, go for the 'this looks like shit' look. If you really must make a new game I guess you should at least have all the old animations too, anything new is bad. You know what, fuck it, I actually think they should quit because they just want my money, which for some reason comes as a great surprise to me. I feel like joining the military and throwing a fake puppy off a cliff atm...
Get out of this thread.
...or get banned for few days for making dumb posts. We'll see what FA decides...
On May 02 2009 07:55 Skeptic wrote: On second thought, I hate everything. It should be starcraft 1 with better graphics. Actually, no, because the graphics are so like that one game that everyone dislikes. Maybe try making it look moar 2d and less modern. Yeah, go for the 'this looks like shit' look. If you really must make a new game I guess you should at least have all the old animations too, anything new is bad. You know what, fuck it, I actually think they should quit because they just want my money, which for some reason comes as a great surprise to me. I feel like joining the military and throwing a fake puppy off a cliff atm...
Get out of this thread.
...or get banned for few days for making dumb posts. We'll see what FA decides...
Savio already mentioned that zerglings looked stupid hopping all at the same time.
Also the Terran buildings with their cranes moving all at the same time is pretty dumb looking. Just change it so they move in schedule of when they're started
- The Banshee design doesn't really make any sense. Helicopter rotors do not work in a vacuum (space).
-For God's sake, do something about the Terran building designs. The majority of them look very much like Tonka toys. Ideally, they should be more metallic with sharper edges, and possibly scaled down a bit.
-The Thor is too big in comparison to the other units.
-The Hellion needs a face lift. It looks like a dune buggy.
-Judging from Battle Report 1, it was hard to tell what color the Protoss was (red). I didn't figure it out until the Protoss player started making Colossus'. I know how others have felt about it, but I rather liked the colored Pylons when I first saw them. However, they could find another way to emphasize the colors of the Protoss. The crystal blue Pylons just totally overwhelms the team color.
- The Zerg creep is too dark and I cannot distinguish creep from units/buildings.
-The Mothership either needs to be scrapped or revamped. I am not pleased with this unit.
-The Siege tank still looks a bit chunky and toyish, although it is a big improvement from the original.
-I don't like the Medivac idea. Just bring back the medic.
While I do have a lot to say about the balance, I trust that Blizzard will not mess this up since it is/was the main driving force behind SC's success. The graphics and design complaints however, have to be heard since it's very possible that they won't change considering we are already so close to beta.
you have a problem with Banshee's helicoptor rotors in space...yet Mutalisks with their wings in space and Guardians/Devourers with no visible means of achieving planetary flight are ok with you?
honestly, wtf
and its fully possible to update graphics after beta. Alpha is to get the core of the game down, and get units finalized, Beta is going to be to try and get the balance right and see how the game actually plays. The graphics have nothing to do with how the unit performs, they could easily update things after beta and before release. I'm sure Terrans and protoss will get an update soon, lately i think they have just been focusing on the zerg.
On May 11 2009 13:07 lordmordor wrote: you have a problem with Banshee's helicoptor rotors in space...yet Mutalisks with their wings in space and Guardians/Devourers with no visible means of achieving planetary flight are ok with you?
honestly, wtf
and its fully possible to update graphics after beta. Alpha is to get the core of the game down, and get units finalized, Beta is going to be to try and get the balance right and see how the game actually plays. The graphics have nothing to do with how the unit performs, they could easily update things after beta and before release. I'm sure Terrans and protoss will get an update soon, lately i think they have just been focusing on the zerg.
You do have a point. I'm just overall not pleased with the Banshee design. They look too much like a helicopter, which is not very Starcraft-ish to me.
Graphically, the Terran buildings are bugging me the most. It is really hard to say what the final product will look like, but I can only hope they follow through and make everything look good.
Why do Ultralisks look so big. I think they are just too big, I mean if you had 12 they would take up half the screen. They just look reallly clumsy and silly can't Blizz just make them a bit smaller. The design is great just the scale I'm worried about. R
On May 11 2009 12:07 Mindrust wrote: - The Banshee design doesn't really make any sense. Helicopter rotors do not work in a vacuum (space).
mutalisks make much more sense though.
How?
it's sarcasm, they even made fun of the wing-flapping in space on battle.nets starcraft section iirc, i can't check though because i can't visit that section any more becuase it doesn't exist on eu.battle.net
colossus rules. good idea. yes the creep is too dark. banelings need to roll, ive seen them waddle and walk, this is bad. the point about synchronization is huge. a bunch of synchronized zerglings?!?! they wouldnt seriously consider that?
On May 11 2009 23:43 ghermination wrote: god i hate the medivac it is so stupid the medic didn't need to be improved god. (Also goddammit why cant the mothership just stop failing so hard)
Why don't you (and others) actually try being constructive instead of spouting this kind of crap? Your post is completely meaningless.
On May 11 2009 12:07 Mindrust wrote: - The Banshee design doesn't really make any sense. Helicopter rotors do not work in a vacuum (space).
mutalisks make much more sense though.
How?
it's sarcasm, they even made fun of the wing-flapping in space on battle.nets starcraft section iirc, i can't check though because i can't visit that section any more becuase it doesn't exist on eu.battle.net
lol that movie in the BW campaign where zerg overruns a planet and you see tons of mutalisks and overlords flying through space always cracks me up
OH SHIT TRANS ATMOSPHERE MUTABALL !!!
i've always thought it must be a horrible life living as a terran marine. You walk out in your group of MnMs and then suddenly blood covers your space helmet as your buddy next to you gets explosively disassembled by underground lurker spines. In terror you jab the stimpack into your arm and feel the burst of pain and adrenalin as you watch zerglings thunder towards you in another direction. You run and fire your gun in terror, trying to get back in range of the cover fire of siege tanks. Your hopes soar when you see the tanks in the horizon, but the zerglings have already caught up to you and you watch in horror as your very own artillery shells blow up your medic girlfriend together with the zerglings mauling her. Still running you make it back into the base behind the tank and bunker lines. You try to get to the command center to tell your commander about the situation, only to get 11 glaive worms traveling at Mach 5 tear through your shoulder, and then bounce back and explode on your knee cap. The last thing you see is the sky going orange and insects covering the sky....
And lets not forget ultralisks dropping from the sky @_@ Gosh i'd shit my pants if i saw an elephant crash down next to my house. Ultras must have air cushioned knees or something so they don't splatter when they fall down.
back on topic: I wish they would fix up the starcraft lore a bit more in sc2. I rmb reading about terran ghosts with psy-storm in the lore of Starcraft: Ghost. Could they maybe tie up the many loose ends and maybe make at least a plausible theory regarding zerg space travel? Maybe the ovies have ion propulsion farts or something and expand to swallow up flapping mutalisks in their bellies. Or hell maybe ovies can only space travel with larvae/drones, and so each new planet they colonize they have to build from ground up again. That could help explain why each pro-gamer always begins by building a base up from ground zero. They are all just having massive battles on different planets! God knows how many planets July has under his control, and maybe Jaedong's mutas are a different evolved strain.
On May 11 2009 23:43 ghermination wrote: god i hate the medivac it is so stupid the medic didn't need to be improved god. (Also goddammit why cant the mothership just stop failing so hard)
Why don't you (and others) actually try being constructive instead of spouting this kind of crap? Your post is completely meaningless.
i was just angry at the moment. Its the "minor complaints" thread, not the "present an organized thesis we spent 16 hours typing" thread,
Personally what is the issues with mbs, automining and auto surround? Let look at it this logically it is known that games like rts cause alot of rsi injurys ok, if blizzard are looking for a means to make it less stressful to persons joints then let them I mean it isnt a test of skill to move a worker to a mine and think about it why would a worker not go mine for itself.
Also issue of mbs isnt that big of a deal you can only Q same type of unit to do a mix you still have use hotkeys or select it for yourself it actually a good idea. I applaud blizzard for caring about our health. And btw auto surround has always been part of sc bw for melee units if u select a group and click on a unit they will surround it because that only way they can attack it so your arguement is flawed and if you dont realise that 10 zealot targeteed on a goon if that goon doesnt move those zealots will automatically surround it until there isnt room for rest zealots.
So whoever thinks that auto surround is a new concept is not thinking about sc bw at all or any other game which uses melee units. It is different for ranged they got more move space so do not surround unless you had enough which would be like 30 on 1 unit to auto surround but it always been part of the game so stop complaining and trust blizzard.
Now I agree on that some animations need more work that being some the death effects and also some of the weapon firing specially the colosus which is kewl idea if they do it right but it currenty firing is junk it original one was better and looked kewler more powerful just clean it up abit.
Ok id also like to see dark archons which are cloaked. personally I think that dark archons should of retained the dt cloak ability it would open so much more usage for the unit.
Another thing id like to see is more zerg new units they seem to lack in that department compared to terran and protoss, give them something kewl and btw the nexus worm was a great idea but it should been like a sub terran unit which moves underground that can be scouted by dectors having a balanced movement speed this unit would been great and i loved how it came out and let all the lings out it also should only carry small units like lings hydra and possibility infectors roachs, dont let it carry lurkers ultras defilers or anything else considered big.
I hope they keep the worm idea it was one kewlest parts of the videos it only has to be created as a balanced unit it not different then to drops in sc, long it is possible to scout it it can be balanced.
Another thing I hope storm is not so powerful for toss in sc2 because in sc1 it can kill alot units with just a few which imo is not really fair since other races dont get very good spells in that regard. Defilers and sciencevesels are decent but storm is only spell in game which can be got very early and do insane amount damage. teching for defilers and science to early is not wise for other races.
in end I trust blizzard to make a good game they done well with all there other games so I hope they continue to listen to us but also use there own creativity as well and not let a few affect there own decisions. I just hope that they dont remove alot the nicer new game mechanics cause of the few who want a sc bw clone alot us want a new game not a repeat of play styles. One thing i hope sc2 brings to table is more variety in play styles in race match ups think about it atm sc bw matchups are all standard builds there is nothing really inventive that occurs in msot match ups im hoping that there will be at least 3 viable builds vs each race matchup that would give us option of adjusting and I trust blizzard has seen this too and have thought about the usage of all units in game not just certain ones vs certain races.
i wish Blizzard would remember that the genius of sc1 is that POSITION AND SPEED IS EVERYTHING. Sieged tanks, reavers, lurkers, dark swarm, psi storms, cloaking, medics being in the way of meleers, terran pushes, stasises, maelstroms, d webs, the list is huge, including almost all normal units too. All:
- quick / short lived / low hp + high damage relatively - extremely position dependent - powerful deciders of a battle / battles end quickly
in contrast, SC2 is:
- slow - fairly position independent - full of soft, slow battles
In short, SC2 is being made by people who don't know what they're doing. Examples of terrible or boring dynamics that remove position and speed as important:
Colossus (weak and slow so SPEED suffers, does line damage instead of explosive so POSITION suffers a little) Medivac (flies so POSITION irrelevant)
.. Just what on earth are you judging this by? You have (most likely) not even played the game, and I can't even imagine you watched the videos of it being played either.
The battles were not slow, shit dies. Positioning matters (since they kept losing all their stuff to splash). Battles ended quickly at the hands of banelings, reaper mines and hunter seeker missiles.
This thread wasn't meant for "general whining", it was for small things that annoy you (perfect example: the synchronised movement animation of the Infested Terrans).
Please remove ground units partially pathing through each other and pushing each other away when they stop moving.
Please do some minor re-designs on the Terran units and buildings- a lot of them just look too cartoony for my taste. The first bunch in my mind would be the Viking in ground mode (although I love the air mode look), Marauder, and Barracks. Siege Tank is meh IMO, but a lot of people seem to hate it.
Death animations. This seems to be pretty popular so far; they need to be short and visceral. While it adds to the aesthetics of a battle somewhat to see units stumbling around and dropping dramatically, it really is confusing and makes it difficult to make split-second decisions on how the battle is progressing (retreat or not?), which is an incredibly key skill in the original SC.
Projectile animations are too flashy and, again, don't feel 'raw' enough to me. While it's great to show off the new graphics, I mean it when I say that I would literally pay more for a game with simpler projectiles like Dragoon shots that sound like they're really dangerous compared to what the Stalker shot is now. Flashy and glowing, yes, but it doesn't sound like it's a weapon war as much as a toy laser gun.
EPT
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