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Northern Ireland26872 Posts
On September 30 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership  wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe. Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff?
Which I covered by ‘they can sell out every gig going’ :p
But you need to do that, for whatever reason SC2 isn’t really doing that anymore.
If we took numbers from the first few years and transported them into now, SC2 still isn’t a Taylor Swift like a CS or a League, it’s still a Metallica
I still fervently believe there’s that appetite, just someone has to deliver in appealing.
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On October 01 2024 00:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote:On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe. Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff? Which I covered by ‘they can sell out every gig going’ :p But you need to do that, for whatever reason SC2 isn’t really doing that anymore. If we took numbers from the first few years and transported them into now, SC2 still isn’t a Taylor Swift like a CS or a League, it’s still a Metallica I still fervently believe there’s that appetite, just someone has to deliver in appealing.
Well having it in Saudi was an issue. Even CS2 and League didn't sell out in Saudi.
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On September 24 2024 10:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:
its not now.
I mean . . . this is the worst SC2 has ever been by far? Like even if anything gets announced there's not likely to be anything this year other than maybe a single HSC. That means at least 4 months without a major tournament (with love to HSC). And of course there was a decent amount of time before EWC.
I don't know how it's even possible for any pro to still be playing unless you stream/YouTube/top 10 player.
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Northern Ireland26872 Posts
On October 01 2024 08:21 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2024 00:11 WombaT wrote:On September 30 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote:On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe. Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff? Which I covered by ‘they can sell out every gig going’ :p But you need to do that, for whatever reason SC2 isn’t really doing that anymore. If we took numbers from the first few years and transported them into now, SC2 still isn’t a Taylor Swift like a CS or a League, it’s still a Metallica I still fervently believe there’s that appetite, just someone has to deliver in appealing. Well having it in Saudi was an issue. Even CS2 and League didn't sell out in Saudi.
Perhaps this wasn’t my best chosen analogy haha
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Whenever this thread gets bumped, I hope it's because of substantial news. But alas, it's always just a vacuous, peripheral post, much like this one.
Hope this will change soon.
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Man, fingers crossed. Hoping for just 1 more year of ESL/GSL.
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On October 07 2024 13:42 johnnyh123 wrote:
Man, fingers crossed. Hoping for just 1 more year of ESL/GSL.
people been hoping that for a while. it has to end at some point...
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51052 Posts
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You don't post something like this when you plan to drop Starcraft... right? right?
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Only tells me other games dont care and sc2 is desperate
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So with no news from ESL, Blizz or anyone, i guess it safe to say that SC2 Esports is dead?
Thank god the community will keep it going in some capacity. Still, makes me sad 
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SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment.
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On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment.
wc2 is just a great game and microsoft has done lots of old rts remasters in recent years
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On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment.
I would disagree. WC2 Remastered has no implication (neither good nor bad) for Microsoft thoughts about competitive RTS. They just work through their portfolio. And if this years Age of Mythology Retold is any indicator, we can expect great things from WC2. Even if it will "just" be a Remastered with no changes, it will probably still be great.
Just wished they would do WC1 and 2 together, though that might be too big of a project.
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On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment.
Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer.
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On November 07 2024 01:03 SmoKim wrote:
So with no news from ESL, Blizz or anyone, i guess it safe to say that SC2 Esports is dead?
No, nothing's certain before the full details of EWC25 have been released with the definitive announcement of the games for which there will and will not be a 2025 circuit.
Actually I am still moderately optimistic that there will be another SC2 circuit, and to my understanding this sentiment is still common among pros and casters alike. HeroMarine for instance recently expressed it, though admitting it's pure speculation.
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On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer.
The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business.
I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games.
Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue.
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We don't know if there is a full circuit but it seems all but confirmed that there will be SC2 at EWC 25. And I guess you need some sort of qualification process for that as well...
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Northern Ireland26872 Posts
On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer.
An underrated point I feel. Streaming has been around for ages of course, but that streaming/content creator route has got more and more and more polished and is just crushing competitive gaming in quite a few games.
Personally gimme a good tournament to watch, but I think I’m increasingly in the minority, especially as you go younger
And hey, from a welfare perspective can’t begrudge it, aside from the difficulty of actually building your stream, gotta be a less stressful day-to-day existence.
Of course if it completely supplants actual professional competition in most games, skilled gamers who aren’t natural entertainers won’t really have an outlet for their skills and will have to do something else.
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EPT
