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SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support.
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On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support.
SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh).....
The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck.
This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really
I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s
Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel
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On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel
Aren't you unironically schizophrenic or bipolar? Thats what everyone thinks when they see your posts.
You should get off tl and get a job.
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On September 28 2024 08:09 vg162 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel Aren't you unironically schizophrenic or bipolar? Thats what everyone thinks when they see your posts. You should get off tl and get a job.
How about you go fuck yourself? 
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On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel
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Ah yes, the last 7 days, what a meaningful time period to look at!
How about the last year:
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On September 30 2024 00:38 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel
It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say.
But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh.
And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk...
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
SC2’s bread and butter viewership is for live tournaments, and YouTube content of various kinds. Do these numbers include the latter?
SC2 individual streamers don’t put the numbers in like they once did, hence why so many pivoted to doing more YouTube content to begin with. Someone like Harstem can pull 6 figure YouTube VoDs relatively regularly, his live views often aren’t even 10% of that.
So yes, if you take a snapshot of a game that is primarily popular for live tournaments, and VoD content rather than live streaming, and just look at live streaming numbers in an ‘off season’ period you may get a certain picture that doesn’t match reality.
Perhaps the Chinese viewership on China-specific platforms is crushing it, I wouldn’t be bowled over by that. If so, hey I stand corrected and was being overly Western-centric earlier. Albeit it still doesn’t make WC3 (or SC2) much more attractive to Western sponsors
In terms of streaming, non-tournament content they’re both small enough these days that a single big variety streamer can pretty much hard carry in either direction.
I think it’s great that Grubby has kept going with content for games he loves, introducing new potential players to them etc, especially WC3. Realistically though he’d pull in similar numbers through the door if he did a ‘Trying to get good at StarCraft 2 again’ series
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On September 30 2024 01:40 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 00:38 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say. But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh. And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk...
Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene?
Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On September 30 2024 02:06 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 01:40 Balnazza wrote:On September 30 2024 00:38 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say. But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh. And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk... Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene? Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football
Why sportswash the less popular of two games within a particular genre?
I’d rather have a scene that looks more like WC3’s, maybe with a few independent LANs or something than be held in thrall to Saudi cash and astoturfed.
WC3 has survived, and done pretty well minus too much offline content, in a grass roots fashion. Great, I prefer that structure.
It just feels over-egging it to claim WC3 is not just doing OK, but is actually pulling in a higher viewership than SC2 in this era. It’s highly, highly debatable and even if it were true it doesn’t massively augment your point anyway.
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CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought.
On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd.
For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end.
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On September 30 2024 02:06 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 01:40 Balnazza wrote:On September 30 2024 00:38 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote:On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote:
SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out.
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say. But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh. And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk... Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene? Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football
So I hope you are only watching the german Bundesliga? Since from the five big leagues in Europe, it is the only one that isn't depending on sportswashing money nor are their teams hysterically in debt?
I get that you have a strong point against Sportswashing and I agree with you there to a degree. I don't count ESL-engagement as "Saudi money", because I also don't count LoL as "China-money". And even without the EWC, SC2 would have put out a good chunk of money this year. Though I'm still kind of convinced this isn't "I hate sportswashing and therefore SC2" but "I hate SC2 so I need a morally acceptable reason to complain about it".
Think is though: ESL/EWC is so big in SC2, there is literally no chance for anything else. Pretty sure that in the entire history of Esports, there has never been any big community upholding of the scene when there is still big money available. So the post-ESL future of SC2 is hard to predict.
Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end.
You are correct, the level of play would decline heavily without tournament money. It's logical, at best only a very few players can play fulltime and even they will need to stream a lot, which isn't exactly perfect training. And everyone else just plays and streams part-time or even for fun. AoE 2 is a perfect example for such a scene.
Again, from there it really depends how money people are interested in stuff like that.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end.
The end has already begun definitionally I suppose, I guess the question is when does the axe really swing?
For me, even if it’s some final hurrah year you don’t just need something like the ESL tour, you absolutely need GSL as well. Clem and Serral, an in-form Reynor are some scary sharks at the top of the food chain absolutely, but of the top 15/30 players let’s say, a lot are still Koreans.
Will those folks stick around with even less opportunity? And if many decide now is a good time to transition to other careers, I think that has a big knock-on effect on interest for international tournaments.
I personally would be fine with a downsizing and moving a lot online, honestly unless it’s a really hyped crowd for me it’s never really added anything except overheads to organisers. Plus competitive fairness.
You get flight costs, equipment overheads, venue overheads that to me don’t always make sense to have.
Re pivoting to mostly online, SC2 doesn’t, and at this point can’t replicate what W3Champions did to equalise things like ping advantages. IIRC they both try to find some equidistant (or as close as possible) server and also artificially set a lowest possible ping to whatever the player with worse ping is pulling.
Is my crude understanding anyway. SC2 went online only eSports out of pure necessity during Covid, but it’s not well set up to do so again.
The other more obvious problem is SC2 is locked down, full stop. WC3 and BW can do things like fix or add maps via the community, W3Champions indeed has absolute QoL improvements over the actual game embedded in their thing.
If we are to move into some new era, OK I’m here for it but how does that actually function?
Whoever’s pulling the levers be it Microsoft now or whoever, you kinda need them to say, we’re moving off our current maintainence mode into ‘community maintenance mode’, or at least open up some tooling to facilitate that.
This isn’t just SC2 either, any game that is locked to a central service and doesn’t allow for private servers etc etc will suffer this fate, and indeed many have.
Sometimes I actively like that, it can ensure we’re all playing the same game, player bases don’t fragment too much etc, but that is the clear downside.
Anyway I’m babbling at this stage, fingers crossed we hear something soon, and crossed further that it’s not bad news.
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For me, even if it’s some final hurrah year you don’t just need something like the ESL tour, you absolutely need GSL as well. Clem and Serral, an in-form Reynor are some scary sharks at the top of the food chain absolutely, but of the top 15/30 players let’s say, a lot are still Koreans.
Will those folks stick around with even less opportunity? And if many decide now is a good time to transition to other careers, I think that has a big knock-on effect on interest for international tournaments.
I think historically Koreans have always been the worst when it comes down to "sticking around". Maybe it is because of the high-living cost or the expectations, but I feel like Korea is either in it 100% or (almost) completly out. Just look at WC3 after the MBC Map Scandal. Only a small margin of the korean players decided to seek out their luck with european teams, basically just the best of the best. And don't even start looking for koreans in DotA2 or CS.
Basically, if there isn't a homegrown scene and interest for it, with korean teams, korean players will be out en masse. The end of Proleague also worked along those lines, with a lot more players instantly retiring before even trying to stick it out.
And to be fair: GSL alone is most certainly not financing the koreans at this point, it is just the means to qualify for the big prizepools. Without ESL, GSL is more or less pointless in its current form. And since Twitch left Korea, I'm not even sure you could make a living as a korean streamer? Doesn't feel like Afreeca is a good patch of internet to play SC2 on...
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On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. Show nested quote +On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end.
False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak.
Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership  wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame.
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Northern Ireland26621 Posts
On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame.
Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going
Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day!
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On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day!
Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe.
Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff?
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On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day!
Doubtful, unfortunately.. But one can always have hope, of course.
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On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote:CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote:[B]
Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months.
Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023.
Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money.
I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame.
I said YouTube. I don't watch on Twitch if I don't have to since YouTube has better quality and higher resolution.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nHlO2Dw.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Zmc9vMH.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n9R28jT.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/O4QT3sT.png)
