EPTAnnual "is EPT/GSL over?" thread - (Answer: Yeah*)
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toinewx
51 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
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Drahkn
186 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On August 23 2024 02:11 Drahkn wrote: Dead game Agreed, buffing Zerg would help though. If there is another GSL, I'm almost certain it would be connected to a new EPT announcement. GSL standalone doesn't seem that helpful for the korean players to live from. So for now, the ball is in ESLs park. And I hope we get something soon...maybe even together with an All-New "Asia-Pacific" region that includes Korea? | ||
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5414 Posts
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sertas
Sweden881 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On August 23 2024 04:30 sertas wrote: All the sc2 players moved on to stormgate Not true. I don't see too many top Koreans playing it. Sure u have top, supernova, parting, Percival and a few lesser known names, but the big dogs were playing SC2 up until EWC. Whether they switch over to stormgate remains to be seen. I know stormgate wants to host tournaments around the world so if they don't switch they will be missing out on what is essentially free money. Especially if GSL/ESL shutdown their SC2 operations. Personally what I think is most likely is a GSL SC2/Stormgate hybrid tournament like what ProLeague did with SC2 and broodwar. Frostgiant will probably come and say "Hey, you need money? We are looking to run a league in Korea. We can provide you with funding but u have to include stormgate." Afreeca will think about it and probably ask for exclusive streaming rights on their website. Frost Giant will agree. Boom. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
I posted this and it was removed. Praying yours stays up we should be allowed to talk about this. Maybe it's a wrong category though is why and it should go in tournaments? | ||
Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On August 23 2024 06:41 CicadaSC wrote: https://tl.net/forum/general/629815-so-no-news-on-esl-gsl-renewal-is-it-gg I posted this and it was removed. Praying yours stays up we should be allowed to talk about this. Maybe it's a wrong category though is why and it should go in tournaments? it's not removed lol just no one paid attention  there's little to discuss: Just like the last 3 years, u just wait until there's a very late announcement | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2623 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On August 23 2024 06:20 CicadaSC wrote: Not true. I don't see too many top Koreans playing it. Sure u have top, supernova, parting, Percival and a few lesser known names, but the big dogs were playing SC2 up until EWC. Whether they switch over to stormgate remains to be seen. I know stormgate wants to host tournaments around the world so if they don't switch they will be missing out on what is essentially free money. Especially if GSL/ESL shutdown their SC2 operations. Personally what I think is most likely is a GSL SC2/Stormgate hybrid tournament like what ProLeague did with SC2 and broodwar. Frostgiant will probably come and say "Hey, you need money? We are looking to run a league in Korea. We can provide you with funding but u have to include stormgate." Afreeca will think about it and probably ask for exclusive streaming rights on their website. Frost Giant will agree. Boom. Not just the koreans, basically no one has switched over that was still fully active in SC2. Sure, some players dabbled in it (even Clem while he was in Korea), but nothing major. Which makes sense, considering that there is still barely any money in the game. Also...I'm not sure if Blizzard would be so happy to be involved in that kind of "Hybrid-Proleague". And they certainly would need to give their okay for that. Doesn't feel like they would, considering that FrostGiant indirectly constantly promotes themselves as the "Better Blizzard"...not that they have yet shown anything that would justify that claim. Except maybe that they are even greedier considering the pricing for Stormgate... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On August 23 2024 06:20 CicadaSC wrote: Not true. I don't see too many top Koreans playing it. Sure u have top, supernova, parting, Percival and a few lesser known names, but the big dogs were playing SC2 up until EWC. Whether they switch over to stormgate remains to be seen. I know stormgate wants to host tournaments around the world so if they don't switch they will be missing out on what is essentially free money. Especially if GSL/ESL shutdown their SC2 operations. Personally what I think is most likely is a GSL SC2/Stormgate hybrid tournament like what ProLeague did with SC2 and broodwar. Frostgiant will probably come and say "Hey, you need money? We are looking to run a league in Korea. We can provide you with funding but u have to include stormgate." Afreeca will think about it and probably ask for exclusive streaming rights on their website. Frost Giant will agree. Boom. Nobody absolutely top tier is making that switch. Just as nobody did so for AoE4. Neither thus far has the sustain. AoE4 had the potential money, but they seemed to fizzle out after doing a couple of big money tournaments and the will wasn’t there. Stormgate the will is probably there, but at this stage not the money. Someone like Clem is good enough to be competitive in a showpiece tournament, equally he can just win an EWC in his main game. If SC2 contracts much further I still don’t think you’ll see much migration. The top guys will just transition careers and maybe top up their earnings from whatever they choose to do with coasting on their native talent and doing OK as semi-pros Being a genuinely world class SC2 player opens you to monies most people the young side of 25 can’t realistically aspire to. As yet no other RTS game offers that hook and if we were to hypothesise SC2’s funding to decline, well my recommendation to a Serral or a Clem is, do something else. | ||
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argonautdice
Canada2711 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote: ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19219 Posts
On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. I'm now searching for people or communities in which they engage in throwing real man hole covers... | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On August 23 2024 22:25 BisuDagger wrote: I'm now searching for people or communities in which they engage in throwing real man hole covers... It's the community called USA | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States693 Posts
On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thanks for the insights. Great work at EWC. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Agreed, and I don’t find early signs especially promising. But we’ll see The appeal of a global circuit, only speaking for myself really drops off without a Korean backbone to it. Or, at least the players we have now playing the SC they’re capable of. Until the GSL question gets some answers it feels very up in the air. As is it doesn’t feel particularly financially viable to be a Korean progamer if you’re not absolutely elite at present. As of now, it’s hardcore fans attempting to plug those funding gaps for quite sometime now, without confirmation of future seasons at present. If ESL and its new paymasters want some goodwill, as well as a compelling circuit spectacle, there’s one pretty obvious place to fund sitting right in front of us. Going back to the signs not being especially promising, Gamers 8’s SC2 show matches had a prize pool either in the ballpark, if not more than a GSL season. Katowice with all its storied history was framed as just another SC2 tournament feeding into the EWC. I think some of the format decisions were pretty disastrous and not aligned particularly well with what long-term fans expect and enjoy. Which to some degree I think points to more of a ‘here’s our big giant tournament’ model, rather than building something more sustainable. But, as I’ve said we shall see. Big, giant tournaments do not on their own sustain a scene. We’ve seen this play out in many a game. If the wider context isn’t healthy, all you’re gonna see is Korea’s best bleed out, Serral/Clem/Reynor cleaning house for a year or two given their age profile, and the lack of obvious short-term challengers coming through. That’s just not super compelling to me versus alternatives where Korea’s top dogs are still suitably incentivised, and that maybe lasts long enough so you see some new talent rising up too | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On August 24 2024 00:56 WombaT wrote: Agreed, and I don’t find early signs especially promising. But we’ll see The appeal of a global circuit, only speaking for myself really drops off without a Korean backbone to it. Or, at least the players we have now playing the SC they’re capable of. Until the GSL question gets some answers it feels very up in the air. As is it doesn’t feel particularly financially viable to be a Korean progamer if you’re not absolutely elite at present. As of now, it’s hardcore fans attempting to plug those funding gaps for quite sometime now, without confirmation of future seasons at present. If ESL and its new paymasters want some goodwill, as well as a compelling circuit spectacle, there’s one pretty obvious place to fund sitting right in front of us. Going back to the signs not being especially promising, Gamers 8’s SC2 show matches had a prize pool either in the ballpark, if not more than a GSL season. Katowice with all its storied history was framed as just another SC2 tournament feeding into the EWC. I think some of the format decisions were pretty disastrous and not aligned particularly well with what long-term fans expect and enjoy. Which to some degree I think points to more of a ‘here’s our big giant tournament’ model, rather than building something more sustainable. But, as I’ve said we shall see. Big, giant tournaments do not on their own sustain a scene. We’ve seen this play out in many a game. If the wider context isn’t healthy, all you’re gonna see is Korea’s best bleed out, Serral/Clem/Reynor cleaning house for a year or two given their age profile, and the lack of obvious short-term challengers coming through. That’s just not super compelling to me versus alternatives where Korea’s top dogs are still suitably incentivised, and that maybe lasts long enough so you see some new talent rising up too As far as ESWC is concern, I know I'm in the minority, but even trying to put asside my personal problems with the whole ESWC thing, I'm not sure the mega-tournament set up without a circuit is much better for the scene than no mega-tournament and no-circuit. It's gonna be so hard to get the best players engaged and motivated in smaller community based stuff all year long playing for a few hundreds bucks or less when there is a tournament with hundreds of thousands in prize pool once a year. At the same time, the number of players able to sustain themselves full time that aren't already independant of fortune would be close to none, so it's not like there's a lot chance anyone catches on to Serral, Clem, Maru, Reynor, Oliveira, etc... I fear that everything will be under the shadow of ESWC all year long and it will be hard to really get excited for the other tournaments since the players winning them will just see them as practice for ESWC I'd prefer having no big circuit at all and reorganise the scene around some smaller stuff. That way it would be easier to get into the day to day tournaments, even if it mean we have no one dedicated full time to the game, maybe it would be time we take that step. There's no shame transitioning from a profesional scene to an amateur scene. Obviously not great for top professional and the people who make a living from ESWC like casters. Altought I don't really pitty the top pro, the last few years have been fairly lucrative for them. (Off course, just my own opinion and not some kind of TL.net position) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On August 24 2024 03:30 Nakajin wrote: As far as ESWC is concern, I know I'm in the minority, but even trying to put asside my personal problems with the whole ESWC thing, I'm not sure the mega-tournament set up without a circuit is much better for the scene than no mega-tournament and no-circuit. It's gonna be so hard to get the best players engaged and motivated in smaller community based stuff all year long playing for a few hundreds bucks or less when there is a tournament with hundreds of thousands in prize pool once a year. At the same time, the number of players able to sustain themselves full time that aren't already independant of fortune would be close to none, so it's not like there's a lot chance anyone catches on to Serral, Clem, Maru, Reynor, Oliveira, etc... I fear that everything will be under the shadow of ESWC all year long and it will be hard to really get excited for the other tournaments since the players winning them will just see them as practice for ESWC I'd prefer having no big circuit at all and reorganise the scene around some smaller stuff. That way it would be easier to get into the day to day tournaments, even if it mean we have no one dedicated full time to the game, maybe it would be time we take that step. There's no shame transitioning from a profesional scene to an amateur scene. Obviously not great for top professional and the people who make a living from ESWC like casters. Altought I don't really pitty the top pro, the last few years have been fairly lucrative for them. (Off course, just my own opinion and not some kind of TL.net position) Thank you for the official stance of TL sir! Basically agree with everything Hey WC3 isn’t what it once was, but there’s at least some money floating around that there’s pretty damn regular content that’s worth watching. Any healthy scene needs graduations, needs tiers or it just doesn’t work. It’s part of the reason I feel region lock delivered some scary Euro talent. Although I think one can have a conversation of how that coincided with a lack of support for the Korean scene. But it added an extra tier of viability for this activity as a career, you could still be a progamer with top tier aspirations, but until you get to the very top table still make non-trivial money in being merely the best in Europe, NA, China or South American. If you have few crumbs year-long, and one mega-tournament well, if you’re some 16/17 year old monster talent, you effectively have to beat the best out of the gate, or not make any money as a progamer. Can you get better, or at least on a similar level to Serral, Maru, Clem etc in a year? If you can’t, in a hypothetical top-heavy year, well your prospects as a pro gamer are pretty bleak. Regular weekend tournies, the ESL circuit, even weeklies are absolutely crucial ‘next steps’ for promising players. I think the weeklies especially are great for this. Top players don’t take it super seriously, but you can still test yourself against them, earn a bit of cash and continue improving If there’s a popular competitive pursuit that doesn’t have a pyramid of many steps of relative ability, and requires you to be either remain a talented amateur or immediately jump to being a top 10/15 in the world pro I’ve yet to encounter it. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom873 Posts
On August 29 2024 20:49 Waxangel wrote: Here's a non-announcement for everyone to get excited/sad about https://twitter.com/ESLSC2/status/1829094531352146136 I don't think they'd say they'd have more details to share if they weren't planning something.  | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On August 29 2024 21:24 MJG wrote: I don't think they'd say they'd have more details to share if they weren't planning something. For optimists.. just consider the intrigue of these questions part of a new unknown mystery plot line extension of the campaign story. Kinda along the lines of "where did the zerg originate?" "Where Is The GSL?" <<Foreboding Hushed Mysterious Voice With English Accent>>: " No One Knows ". | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
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Gescom
Canada3355 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thanks for sharing!  | ||
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Highwinds
Canada955 Posts
They won't attempt to crowdfund to run the tournament or sell any merchandise for people. It will be 360p in a box that tells people to watch on the SOOP App for Samsung Fridges for the best viewing experience. During the finals players can fax in their drawings to be shown on the stream. The best drawing will win a free GSL pin. (but you must live in Korea to claim the winnings) | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On August 29 2024 20:49 Waxangel wrote: Here's a non-announcement for everyone to get excited/sad about https://twitter.com/ESLSC2/status/1829094531352146136 They’ve still got a long way to go to beat NASL for non-announcements mind! | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
Look at Parasite who revealed he makes up to $240k annually off just ad revenue while streaming with 500 viewers. Sure he's an outlier but FanFan made $150k watching videos, talking, and playing video games with no stress. Add in the donation, ad sponsorships, OnlyFans subscriptions, and you can easily make more. I personally know someone who has been unemployed for over a year after getting laid off from his job at one of the largest banks in Canada. He's focusing more on social media and he's probably making good money given he doesn't seem to be in a rush to look for a job, despite the extremely high cost of living here. I know Uber paid him a few hundred a few months ago and gave him free food to advertise on Instagram. I believe he only had to make 2 or 3 posts to fulfill his contract. | ||
digmouse
China6327 Posts
On August 30 2024 01:38 Balnazza wrote: There will probably be some more downsizing. Or if we want to be more positive: The integration of Korea into Asia might take a bit of planning. If we get more Masters, I would also assume they might move one of them to China? I think that makes a lot sense as long as logistics are properly dealt with. We are arguably the biggest market for SC2 at the moment. | ||
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tankmage
2 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On August 31 2024 10:01 tankmage wrote: However, Katowice 2025 is likely SC2 is not even in the spodek anymore, so yeah it's definitely likely. They don't need to pay a lot to have it and it's always filled up the smaller venue so why not? If people weren't attending previous SC2 events in katowice then I would be concerned. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On August 30 2024 11:35 geokilla wrote: I personally think SC2 (and other titles) as an eSports is over or will come to an end over the next few years. The only reason to be a competitive gamer is if you really want to give up your teenage and young adult life to compete and achieve your dream. But when I say give up, I mean give up. I can't imagine these teenagers and adults are attending school or getting a quality education while they fly all around the world to compete and play video games. The risk vs reward is too great. The fact we have professional gamers getting married or having a baby surprises me. I don't know how they do it given the time and commitment they have to put into the game. Look at Parasite who revealed he makes up to $240k annually off just ad revenue while streaming with 500 viewers. Sure he's an outlier but FanFan made $150k watching videos, talking, and playing video games with no stress. Add in the donation, ad sponsorships, OnlyFans subscriptions, and you can easily make more. I personally know someone who has been unemployed for over a year after getting laid off from his job at one of the largest banks in Canada. He's focusing more on social media and he's probably making good money given he doesn't seem to be in a rush to look for a job, despite the extremely high cost of living here. I know Uber paid him a few hundred a few months ago and gave him free food to advertise on Instagram. I believe he only had to make 2 or 3 posts to fulfill his contract. I mean...there are thousand upon thousands of people in my country alone who do their choosen sport "as a job" and they certainly don't get rich from it either. In fact, probably a lot of Esports-pros earn sums these people would kill for. Also rather odd to think now of all times would be the moment to call the end of Esports. People are working and living in this industry as far back as the early 2000s and the money and security now is better than it ever was, so is the hype around it. Not saying it is perfect and of course the sustainability as an industry is still fragile to shitty, but that has always been the case. Though of course, when the money gets tighter, there will be players who use Esports just as a stepping stone. In WC3 for example it was rather common that players would invest only a few years into the game, gathering money for College or any other big expenses, before moving on. Also saying "just get 500 viewer on Twitch and live from that" is basically the same as "just get into the Top 16 of every tournament". I can't remember the exact number, but a streamer (one of those 500ish viewer streamers) I follow said one or two years back that when you have 7 viewers on Twitch, you are already in the top 10% (or even higher) of streamers. That is how many people stream on Twitch for their one or two friends. Living off of streaming is a niché, getting enough from it that you actually can build your future on it is even more niché and getting rich from it is almost as likely as winning the lottery. Not to mention that the players who do have good viewer numbers often (not always ofc) have these exactly because they compete in Esports. If they would have build their streams purely around their personalities and entertainment value...yieks. A few things will of course change in Esports. It will be interesting to see if CS and LoL will stay the "eternal games", with Valve taking back the reigns for CS and Riot planning out their next steps to make LoL Esports more profitable. Will Valorant enter the pantheon? Can DotA2 recover or will it dissolve further? Can any new game even enter the field? Is it impossible to make Esports work as a new game without the Publisher/Developer taking over immediately? | ||
afreecaTV.Char
United States337 Posts
On August 30 2024 04:03 Highwinds wrote: Guessing online only version of GSL. No Studio. Only 1 AI Caster, and only a top 8 bracket. They won't attempt to crowdfund to run the tournament or sell any merchandise for people. It will be 360p in a box that tells people to watch on the SOOP App for Samsung Fridges for the best viewing experience. During the finals players can fax in their drawings to be shown on the stream. The best drawing will win a free GSL pin. (but you must live in Korea to claim the winnings) Who leaked company documents to you? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
On September 01 2024 03:28 afreecaTV.Char wrote: Who leaked company documents to you? LOL i thought a leak actually happened until i read the quoted message | ||
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johnnyh123
91 Posts
So I guess the balls are with ESL, if they decide to host 2025, even if with a smaller prize pool, but at least the top 20 guys will stay cause you will expect a good payday come Oil Cup. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On September 21 2024 06:11 CicadaSC wrote: So apparently ESL is putting together plans and will have news though, I think GSL might be done though since even Ragnarok thinks so in his video he made. Now for speculation, maybe ESL is looking to incorporate Korean players in their league somehow? Like either give them their own online circuit like NA and EU has? Then of course top players qualify for offline finals. U can't just say 'apparently'—you have to say where u heard it | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On September 21 2024 09:01 Waxangel wrote: U can't just say 'apparently'—you have to say where u heard it the message above mine! i should have quoted it, but they say they are drawing up whats next to share. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50101 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
So there will be stuff - buuuut the question remains how much. Even if everything would remain the same, we still would probably get one split less, considering that the last season was 1 1/2 years long. Because of the late EWC announcement, it had overlength. But I still expect some more shrinkage, especially in Korea. As I often said, it most likely would make sense to just kick GSL out of the pool and incorporate the korean scene into Asia, adjusting the slots accordingly of course. And from there it depends what we will get. My well-placed sources "Dude", "Trust" and "Me" expect the following: Scenario 1: We will get the full circuit. Katowice, two Masters and the EWC. I think this is the most unlikely so far, sadly. Scenario 2: We will get a smaller circuit. EWC and either two Masters or one Masters and Katowice. Maybe Katowice serves as one of the two Masters, essentially kicking the Katowice-Standalone out. Scenario 3: SC2 gets kicked out of the EWC and we get a long season, with Katowice 2026 serving as the new World Championship. Gotta say, this in my mind is the most unlikely. Not only would ESL not commit to such a long Circuit, but considering how many different games are in the EWC, SC2 will probably stay a part of it just for the game-diversity. And I really can't imagine Stormgate being even being close to ready at the next EWC - if ever. Scenario 4: We only get EWC and maybe one Master (or Katowice), the rest gets relegated to being Online. Scenario 5: We won't get a Circuit at all and instead ESL will host one or two Offline events (at best) that are standalone, with EWC being essentially the new Katowice Scenario 6: Everything gets turned Online, with just the EWC serving as the World Championship. Maybe with the opportunity for smaller TOs and Community-Figures to host point-giving tournaments and cups aswell. Scenario 7: ESL announced the SC2 Proleague with a two million $ prizepool, fully offline of course. It serves as a bridge between now and the soon announced SC3 by Blizzard, which surprisingly becomes the best RTS ever made. Then we wake up and buy some ice cream against the pain. | ||
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riche
Croatia31 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On September 25 2024 02:25 riche wrote: Whatever they decide, they need to announce it soon. heromarine already announced he retired and will focus on content creation i believe, I wonder who is next. Pro players must be panicing. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 25 2024 03:35 CicadaSC wrote: heromarine already announced he retired and will focus on content creation i believe, I wonder who is next. Pro players must be panicing. I mean did he retire based on the circuit uncertainty or based on having been an SC2 pro for basically 14 years and fancying doing something else? Clarification would be nice obviously but I’m not sure if that’s the real factor in this specific instance | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On September 25 2024 03:35 CicadaSC wrote: heromarine already announced he retired and will focus on content creation i believe, I wonder who is next. Pro players must be panicing. Wasn't Heromarine already kind of spacing out recently? Still active, but it felt like he was participating less and less in stuff and his scores got worse over the year aswell. For example he didn't try to qualify for BGE nor Stars Wars | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On September 25 2024 03:35 CicadaSC wrote: heromarine already announced he retired and will focus on content creation i believe, I wonder who is next. Pro players must be panicing. His content isn't that good... Wonder what's his plan. Go back to school and into the workforce? Pro players already know the game is dead. Even if a new year gets announced, no one will realistically be able to make a living out of it unless they are Clem or Serral. We should just let it die and find a new hobby. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On September 25 2024 07:23 geokilla wrote: His content isn't that good... Wonder what's his plan. Go back to school and into the workforce? Pro players already know the game is dead. Even if a new year gets announced, no one will realistically be able to make a living out of it unless they are Clem or Serral. We should just let it die and find a new hobby. So I guess that is the moment to say goodbye to you and wish you the best with your new hobby since we won't see you ever again? | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
On September 25 2024 07:23 geokilla wrote: Wonder what's his plan. Go back to school and into the workforce? If I remember correctly from his stream, HeroMarine has already been enrolled in a university program for a while now, having balanced university and pro-gaming around the tournament cycles during this time. Even apart from this, he has been at once a player, streamer, and content creator for years. He's also generally active in the German e-sport scene, organizing for example small offline tournaments. On September 25 2024 07:23 geokilla wrote: We should just let it die and find a new hobby. Yeah, let's abandon all our hobbies the moment they stop being supported by large organizations. | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States132 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Really well put, I hope we get a dope ass announcement soon! | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On September 25 2024 07:31 Balnazza wrote: So I guess that is the moment to say goodbye to you and wish you the best with your new hobby since we won't see you ever again? I've already picked up a new hobby. I only watch SC2 during the tournaments and for the smaller tournament streams like the weekly, Kung Fu Cup, etc. I used to go crazy watching Polt or all the SC2 streams and VODs to the point where it affected my education. I admit mistakes were made. On September 25 2024 08:23 Antithesis wrote: If I remember correctly from his stream, HeroMarine has already been enrolled in a university program for a while now, having balanced university and pro-gaming around the tournament cycles during this time. Even apart from this, he has been at once a player, streamer, and content creator for years by now. He's also generally active in the German e-sport scene, organizing for example small offline tournaments. Yeah, let's abandon all our hobbies the moment they stop being supported by large organizations. Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months. Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023. Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money. I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On September 25 2024 09:17 StarcraftHistorian wrote: Really well put, I hope we get a dope ass announcement soon! In case you missed it, her tone has changed to a bit more pessimism since writing that. Check her recent tweets she talks about about being bummed, possible one tournament next year, and hard to see a future for SC2. So I wouldn't be so sure and excited we are going to get a "dope ass announcement" soon.😅 | ||
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StarcraftHistorian
United States132 Posts
On September 25 2024 10:50 CicadaSC wrote: In case you missed it, her tone has changed to a bit more pessimism since writing that. Check her recent tweets she talks about about being bummed, possible one tournament next year, and hard to see a future for SC2. So I wouldn't be so sure and excited we are going to get a "dope ass announcement" soon.😅 https://twitter.com/ZGGaming/status/1838285027219771605 I was not aware of timeline of these two posts so ty haha | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
[B] Sorry but I can't see SC2 continuing if ESL can't even continue the weeklies. We are now relying on Rotti, Steadfast, Kaelaris, and Wardi to fund it. If I remember correctly, Rotti said at the beginning he only planned on doing this for a few weeks. I definitely do not see him and the others funding the weekly for months. Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. Teams need to make a profit and can't post millions in losses every year. Fnatic posted a net loss of 6.37 million euros. In 2022, G2, a much bigger and more successful organization, posted a negative EBIDTA of 670k euros. Rumours are G2 cannot afford to pay Niko after the CS2 Major so he's going to Falcons. NIP, one of the most storied esports organizations, posted a net loss of $13.3m in 2023. Plus if we turn to all the other esports, their leagues are consolidating as the ad and sponsorship money dries up. In League of Legends, LCS is no more. LEC downsized heavily this year and Rogue is looking to sell their LEC spot. In CS2, Valve is making changes starting next year so there's no more tournament partners (simply put) which means less revenue to be made via prize money. I'm sorry if I sound pessimistic but I don't see SC2 continuing when the other major esports and most major organizations are struggling. As I said before, the players are getting older and there's a lack of new blood looking to compete at the highest level. Why bother competing when streaming on Twitch is more relaxing and pays significantly more? Even Doublelift said the only reason he came out of retirement in 2023 was because he wanted to compete and felt he was better than all the other ADCs. Otherwise, streaming was less stressful and paid more. Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote: Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. Pretty much, hey I’m hopeful but even if it is a downsize to a WC3 kind of level, I still watch plenty of that. Perhaps if offline tournaments do persist in a sans ESL scenario they’ll be more regional. You don’t need crazy prize pools to make it worth a trip across Europe for Europeans anyway. Hell, non pros do it to play in HSC just for the craic. I’d be more pessimistic about Korea and the US in this scenario. Perhaps China can pick up some slack, who knows? IIRC Blizz has ironed out some issues with getting their games into that region again or whatever the problem was | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
Some viewer numbers (without Chinese viewers) from EWC across all events. Only 3 games had worse viewership than Starcraft. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 25 2024 16:14 Harris1st wrote: https://esportsinsider.com/2024/08/esports-world-cup-2024-viewership Some viewer numbers (without Chinese viewers) from EWC across all events. Only 3 games had worse viewership than Starcraft. I mean they’re also most of the other big eSports titles If you’re amongst the least popular acts at a big music festival, it’s still notable that you’re booked Certain titles also probably had better EWC numbers but perhaps don’t have the regular year-round viewership SC2 gets. Hell Katowice got more viewers. Fortnite and EAFC are orders of magnitudes bigger than SC2 in terms of playerbase, or the numbers the big streamers and content creators do and they didn’t come close to proportionally outperforming SC2 I’m not huffing copium, I swear it’s just alcohol and cigarettes are my vices, SC2’s numbers are actually pretty good all things considered. Plus the demographic is a bit older, You’ve got a niche going where the overall set of eyes is smaller, but more invested (see GSL’s quite successful crowdfunding), and (outside of yours truly) should generally have a decent amount of disposable income too, I mean the latest GSL finals day pulled in 100K all told, it’s not megabucks but it’s not negligible either | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
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dysenterymd
1189 Posts
On September 25 2024 21:28 Balnazza wrote: The concern with that "Low viewership"-number isn't so much the fact that SC2 was that low - someone has to be - but the prizepool situation. Clem had the highest singular payout in the entire tournament. DotA2 had the highest prizepool with 1,5mil for the winner, but that gets split in five of course...so Clem technically outgrossed even that. And SC2 had the highest prizepool in all the 1v1 games aswell. The prize pool was insane yeah. The fact that it's so massive means that it could be cut without significant issue - I'm happy that SC2 pros got huge paydays, but if prizes were cut by 50% across the board I think players would fight just as hard for a 200k first place prize. EWC seems like it wants to be the biggest ever for everything though, so maybe they'd just drop SC2 before having a more middle of the road prize pool. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On September 25 2024 10:35 geokilla wrote: Let's not forget professional players are humans too and there's no way can make a living competing in small tournaments. I'm totally fine with an entire scene of part time players and a community built circuit. I find its more fun that way. Is living with 10 guys in 1 room with 5 bunk beds the height of competitive play in Brood War? If so, I prefer the friendlier part time scene of Command & Conquer. Could these C&C players be better if they went blind staring into a glowing flat screen 70 hours a week? i guess. who cares. its just a video game. The "King of '94 World Championships" are this weekend. It is going to be a blast. EA has zero input; it is all community run. It is way more fun than any EA Sports run event. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 26 2024 00:21 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I'm totally fine with an entire scene of part time players and a community built circuit. I find its more fun that way. Is living with 10 guys in 1 room with 5 bunk beds the height of competitive play in Brood War? If so, I prefer the friendlier part time scene of Command & Conquer. Could these C&C players be better if they went blind staring into a glowing flat screen 70 hours a week? i guess. who cares. its just a video game. The "King of '94 World Championships" are this weekend. It is going to be a blast. EA has zero input; it is all community run. It is way more fun than any EA Sports run event. No one is living like that anymore and BW has 16 times the average and total viewership, let alone 100% community funded scene. Total donations for BW were over 8 million + about about 3 million in daily proleague in 2023. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On September 26 2024 17:37 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: No one is living like that anymore and BW has 16 times the average and total viewership, let alone 100% community funded scene. Total donations for BW were over 8 million + about about 3 million in daily proleague in 2023. Source? | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom873 Posts
On September 26 2024 17:37 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: No one is living like that anymore and BW has 16 times the average and total viewership, let alone 100% community funded scene. Total donations for BW were over 8 million + about about 3 million in daily proleague in 2023. 16 times the viewership of the BW Proleague era? I assume that's what Jimmy means by 5 bunk beds in a single room... | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50101 Posts
Viewership is tricky with BW tournaments because afreeca(or well SOOP now that they rebranded) allows for restreams from their partners, so even if the official stream has 6-10k viewers on each gameday you'd have to add every individual streamer restreaming it too. They don't care because they get a cut of the money and nobody donates to the official stream. player earnings are posted on eloboard https://eloboard.com/men/bbs/board.php?bo_table=pro_win# though to note this is only one avenue of their earnings, I don't know if this counts tournament winnings, non-proleague donations and any personal sponsorships. other things to note is that it is top heavy, though if you break through you really reap the rewards and everyone now has a "streamer first" mentality since they earn more in streaming than anything else. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
You can now play some of the best RTS campaigns ever made for free on Game Pass. OH and BTW, you can still do the trick of buying the lowest tier of XBOX Game Pass Live for 1,2 or 3 years. Then buying 1 month of the ULTIMATE level and getting the highest tier for a super low price. It is hilarious that M$ went on a big marketing run stating it would no longer be possible. And, a few months later you can do it again. On September 26 2024 17:37 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: No one is living like that anymore and BW has 16 times the average and total viewership, let alone 100% community funded scene. Total donations for BW were over 8 million + about about 3 million in daily proleague in 2023. my point is that big money being in a scene does not automatically make it better. At the time of 10 guys living in 1 room the C&C scene was preferable to me. It was less serious and more fun. Personally, I don't want video game entertainment to be a part of the serious/important aspect of my life. I'm sure millions and/or billions feel the same way. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
There is also the fact that Tasteless is exactly right: Broodwar might be as big as SC2, but only in Korea. 95% (his numbers I think?) of its popularity is in Korea and even there you still don't have new talent. Everywhere else the game is basically dead. So if you don't plan to go to Korea, BroodWar is literally not an option to play professionally | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
Source on what? https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days about 16 times the viewership than SC2  Daily Proleagues more than 4 million in 1.5 years.https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/608209-2022balloon-donation-rankings-for-sc-korean-bj https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/609447-2023q1-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc-bjs https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs As if this is in any way farfetched | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 26 2024 23:32 Balnazza wrote: Dunno how accurate "Escharts" is, I assume it isn't fully updated for SCR yet, but according to it SC2s viewership trumps Broodwar every year, though it has gotten closer. SC2 also easily dwarves SCRs prizepool by a landslide, talking 2 million vs. ~300K at best per year. And how the heck is Broodwar "100% community funded"? Yeah, escharts is shit because it doesnt include afreeca? Which is 99.9 percent of viewership? Neither does it include the daily proleague, or donations? Of course SC2 will be higher if you exclude all the viewership of BW as well as all the funding lmao. Hey, lemme just exclude all viewership from European football and all the prize pool. Therefore the Saudi league must be much bigger And it is 100 percent community funded and doesnt rely on Saudi money for 95 percent of its money. On September 26 2024 23:32 Balnazza wrote: There is also the fact that Tasteless is exactly right: Broodwar might be as big as SC2, but only in Korea. 95% (his numbers I think?) of its popularity is in Korea and even there you still don't have new talent. Everywhere else the game is basically dead. So if you don't plan to go to Korea, BroodWar is literally not an option to play professionally SC2 is dead everywhere, BW is dead everywhere except in Korea, where it is as popular as league. https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days See these viewers and SC2 is not viable as a career anywhere. BW is at least in Korea. That is not a discussion, however you want to ignore statistics here. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On September 27 2024 07:33 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Yeah, escharts is shit because it doesnt include afreeca? Which is 99.9 percent of viewership? Neither does it include the daily proleague, or donations? Of course SC2 will be higher if you exclude all the viewership of BW as well as all the funding lmao. Hey, lemme just exclude all viewership from European football and all the prize pool. Therefore the Saudi league must be much bigger And it is 100 percent community funded and doesnt rely on Saudi money for 95 percent of its money. SC2 is dead everywhere, BW is dead everywhere except in Korea, where it is as popular as league. https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days See these viewers and SC2 is not viable as a career anywhere. BW is at least in Korea. That is not a discussion, however you want to ignore statistics here. it's obviously not accurate for this year, but every other year looks pretty on point? If you live from donations, you are not a BW pro. You are a streamer. Which is totally fine, but it has nothing to do with the professional scene. Grubby is also living from WC3 (to a degree), still doesn't make him a competitive pro again. Okay, I'm not big in the BW scene: Afreeca/SOOP is not putting in any money for ASL/SSL? Not one penny? Community also funds the entire studio etc.? If not, it's not community-funded. Not even one bit. AoE 2 is much more community-funded than that and even there Microsoft and Redbull put in a penny... If BroodWar is as popular in Korea than LoL, the BW players get a pretty shitty deal, if you look at the prizepools...also not that helpful to compare SC2 and SC:R in the last 30 days considering SC2 is in Offseason. I don't doubt that Broodwar will have more viewers in Korea still, but over the year SC2 will clearly do much better. In the end, the fact remains: If you are not in Korea, don't bother with BW. In SC2 you might atleast get a pretty buck out of it from anywhere. Though of course, if you are 14 and decided to become a progamer...choose neither game. It will take far too long to get into it and in the end you will earn a lot more money in LoL, CS2, Valorant or whatever game comes up. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On September 27 2024 07:28 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Source on what? https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days about 16 times the viewership than SC2 Daily Proleagues more than 4 million in 1.5 years.https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/608209-2022balloon-donation-rankings-for-sc-korean-bj https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/609447-2023q1-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc-bjs https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs As if this is in any way farfetched Holy hell these are some impressive numbers! I had no idea You don't have to be a dick about it btw | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom873 Posts
On September 27 2024 07:28 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Source on what? https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days about 16 times the viewership than SC2 Daily Proleagues more than 4 million in 1.5 years.https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/608209-2022balloon-donation-rankings-for-sc-korean-bj https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/609447-2023q1-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc-bjs https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs As if this is in any way farfetched The person you originally responded to didn't mention SC2, so it actually seemed to me like you were comparing Proleague-era BW with current BW. Thanks for the clarification. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 27 2024 08:35 Balnazza wrote: it's obviously not accurate for this year, but every other year looks pretty on point? If you live from donations, you are not a BW pro. You are a streamer. Which is totally fine, but it has nothing to do with the professional scene. Grubby is also living from WC3 (to a degree), still doesn't make him a competitive pro again. Okay, I'm not big in the BW scene: Afreeca/SOOP is not putting in any money for ASL/SSL? Not one penny? Community also funds the entire studio etc.? If not, it's not community-funded. Not even one bit. AoE 2 is much more community-funded than that and even there Microsoft and Redbull put in a penny... If BroodWar is as popular in Korea than LoL, the BW players get a pretty shitty deal, if you look at the prizepools...also not that helpful to compare SC2 and SC:R in the last 30 days considering SC2 is in Offseason. I don't doubt that Broodwar will have more viewers in Korea still, but over the year SC2 will clearly do much better. In the end, the fact remains: If you are not in Korea, don't bother with BW. In SC2 you might atleast get a pretty buck out of it from anywhere. Though of course, if you are 14 and decided to become a progamer...choose neither game. It will take far too long to get into it and in the end you will earn a lot more money in LoL, CS2, Valorant or whatever game comes up. Maybe you should stop yapping and embarass yourself even further User was warned for this post | ||
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Comedy
455 Posts
On September 27 2024 17:16 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Maybe you should stop yapping and embarass yourself even further Agreed. This dude takes being clueless to a new level. User was warned for this post | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On September 27 2024 07:33 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: SC2 is dead everywhere, BW is dead everywhere except in Korea, where it is as popular as league. https://streamscharts.com/games?search=starcraft&time=30-days See these viewers and SC2 is not viable as a career anywhere. BW is at least in Korea. That is not a discussion, however you want to ignore statistics here. Competitive video game scenes last for decades without the players basing their professional careers on the games. This form of competition is more in the spirit of what a competitive video game is/was for the entire audience. The Olympics used to be all amateurs because amateur competition captured the true spirit of the games. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 28 2024 04:07 M3t4PhYzX wrote: SC2 scene will go the way WC3 scene went after the former came out. Better even, probably, considering the current era of 24/7 streaming and a lot of avenues for community support. SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 28 2024 05:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: SC2 already only has half the viewership of WC3 (which is only Grubby tbh)..... The Saudis should sponsor WC3 instead of SC2 since you guys are so much about 'international viewership' to sportswash it. More bang for the buck. This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel | ||
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vg162
6 Posts
On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote: This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel Aren't you unironically schizophrenic or bipolar? Thats what everyone thinks when they see your posts. You should get off tl and get a job. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 28 2024 08:09 vg162 wrote: Aren't you unironically schizophrenic or bipolar? Thats what everyone thinks when they see your posts. You should get off tl and get a job. How about you go fuck yourself?  | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 28 2024 06:12 WombaT wrote: This is just beyond bollocks, just borderline nonsensical really I love WC3 with all my soul, consume a lot of content, I can see the numbers on each video and, by and large it does not indicate a viewership that is double SC2’s Not even remotely, stop talking utter drivel ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nHlO2Dw.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Zmc9vMH.png) | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10318 Posts
How about the last year: ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n9R28jT.png) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/O4QT3sT.png) | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say. But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh. And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
SC2 individual streamers don’t put the numbers in like they once did, hence why so many pivoted to doing more YouTube content to begin with. Someone like Harstem can pull 6 figure YouTube VoDs relatively regularly, his live views often aren’t even 10% of that. So yes, if you take a snapshot of a game that is primarily popular for live tournaments, and VoD content rather than live streaming, and just look at live streaming numbers in an ‘off season’ period you may get a certain picture that doesn’t match reality. Perhaps the Chinese viewership on China-specific platforms is crushing it, I wouldn’t be bowled over by that. If so, hey I stand corrected and was being overly Western-centric earlier. Albeit it still doesn’t make WC3 (or SC2) much more attractive to Western sponsors In terms of streaming, non-tournament content they’re both small enough these days that a single big variety streamer can pretty much hard carry in either direction. I think it’s great that Grubby has kept going with content for games he loves, introducing new potential players to them etc, especially WC3. Realistically though he’d pull in similar numbers through the door if he did a ‘Trying to get good at StarCraft 2 again’ series | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On September 30 2024 01:40 Balnazza wrote: It's literally just Grubby and nothing going on rn for SC2. Even if you look at the 30-Days mark, WC3 edges out SC2 slightly...which still isn't surprising. For Starcraft 2, it has come down to just watching the big tournaments and not so much particular streamers. Which would probably change if there are no more big tournaments - or of course it could fail into oblivion, hard to say. But seriously: I love that WC3 is doing okay popularity-wise, but I would still trade 100K of those monthly viewers for a better tournament-scene. Or a time machine to travel back in time to stop the Map Scandal to ever happen, which might have helped...and could have potentially impacted Brood War quite a lot aswell tbh. And I'm still mad at myself that I even reply to this pointless BW circle-jerk... Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene? Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 30 2024 02:06 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene? Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football Why sportswash the less popular of two games within a particular genre? I’d rather have a scene that looks more like WC3’s, maybe with a few independent LANs or something than be held in thrall to Saudi cash and astoturfed. WC3 has survived, and done pretty well minus too much offline content, in a grass roots fashion. Great, I prefer that structure. It just feels over-egging it to claim WC3 is not just doing OK, but is actually pulling in a higher viewership than SC2 in this era. It’s highly, highly debatable and even if it were true it doesn’t massively augment your point anyway. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On September 25 2024 12:02 Balnazza wrote: Riot merging leagues together for LoL to fit better with Valorant makes total sense. That way they can use the same four studios for LoL and Valorant, making it much more efficient. Considering that LoL Esports is almost as old as SC2, that is reasonable. Still probably the most profitable Esport out there. And what was that about LEC downsizing? Still 10 teams, most likely 10 next year aswell. Rogue selling their slot also isn't saying much, considering Rogue's situation as a whole (and Team Falcons interest to join). But sure, yes, Esport in itself is financially still not sustainable on its own, it doesn't generate enough money. That's a problem for a while now, which sadly always means that economic crisis always hits Esports hard, with sponsors reducing their involvement. That won't change for a while, but it isn't particularly important for SC2? Which leads me to my bigger point: What exactly is the meaning of "SC continuing"? Granted, without ESL, there are no more offline events. Maaaybe the occassional HSC or something small and fun like that bulgarian thingy. And surely, without these, you don't have a pro-scene. But that doesn't mean SC2 "stops". You can still have a small group of good to great players who can live from the game. You can also still have cool cups and tournaments, casted by your favorite casters (who might organize it aswell). WC3 and AoE 2 do that (with AoE 2 probably having the weirdest life-cycle in the history of Esports). Other smaller games do that aswell. Heck, there are still The Settler 3/4 tournaments. It completly comes down to what you personally enjoy. If it is seeing cool SC2 with great casts - you will probably still get that. Do you want the big flashy tournaments? Then yeah, those are on a timer that might have run out already. And don't get me wrong, it is not bad to say "yeah, I don't care for online stuff, I'm out". Watch what you enjoy. But the assumption that time itself stops the minute there are no more offline events for SC2 is just absurd. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On September 30 2024 02:06 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Right for BW its just korea and for WC3 its just Grubby. I guess its only 1 million sportwashing dollars that bring in viewers for SC2, but somehow this shows a more healthy scene? Guess I should stop watching european football and watch some healthy saudi football So I hope you are only watching the german Bundesliga? Since from the five big leagues in Europe, it is the only one that isn't depending on sportswashing money nor are their teams hysterically in debt? I get that you have a strong point against Sportswashing and I agree with you there to a degree. I don't count ESL-engagement as "Saudi money", because I also don't count LoL as "China-money". And even without the EWC, SC2 would have put out a good chunk of money this year. Though I'm still kind of convinced this isn't "I hate sportswashing and therefore SC2" but "I hate SC2 so I need a morally acceptable reason to complain about it". Think is though: ESL/EWC is so big in SC2, there is literally no chance for anything else. Pretty sure that in the entire history of Esports, there has never been any big community upholding of the scene when there is still big money available. So the post-ESL future of SC2 is hard to predict. You are correct, the level of play would decline heavily without tournament money. It's logical, at best only a very few players can play fulltime and even they will need to stream a lot, which isn't exactly perfect training. And everyone else just plays and streams part-time or even for fun. AoE 2 is a perfect example for such a scene. Again, from there it really depends how money people are interested in stuff like that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote: CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. The end has already begun definitionally I suppose, I guess the question is when does the axe really swing? For me, even if it’s some final hurrah year you don’t just need something like the ESL tour, you absolutely need GSL as well. Clem and Serral, an in-form Reynor are some scary sharks at the top of the food chain absolutely, but of the top 15/30 players let’s say, a lot are still Koreans. Will those folks stick around with even less opportunity? And if many decide now is a good time to transition to other careers, I think that has a big knock-on effect on interest for international tournaments. I personally would be fine with a downsizing and moving a lot online, honestly unless it’s a really hyped crowd for me it’s never really added anything except overheads to organisers. Plus competitive fairness. You get flight costs, equipment overheads, venue overheads that to me don’t always make sense to have. Re pivoting to mostly online, SC2 doesn’t, and at this point can’t replicate what W3Champions did to equalise things like ping advantages. IIRC they both try to find some equidistant (or as close as possible) server and also artificially set a lowest possible ping to whatever the player with worse ping is pulling. Is my crude understanding anyway. SC2 went online only eSports out of pure necessity during Covid, but it’s not well set up to do so again. The other more obvious problem is SC2 is locked down, full stop. WC3 and BW can do things like fix or add maps via the community, W3Champions indeed has absolute QoL improvements over the actual game embedded in their thing. If we are to move into some new era, OK I’m here for it but how does that actually function? Whoever’s pulling the levers be it Microsoft now or whoever, you kinda need them to say, we’re moving off our current maintainence mode into ‘community maintenance mode’, or at least open up some tooling to facilitate that. This isn’t just SC2 either, any game that is locked to a central service and doesn’t allow for private servers etc etc will suffer this fate, and indeed many have. Sometimes I actively like that, it can ensure we’re all playing the same game, player bases don’t fragment too much etc, but that is the clear downside. Anyway I’m babbling at this stage, fingers crossed we hear something soon, and crossed further that it’s not bad news. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
For me, even if it’s some final hurrah year you don’t just need something like the ESL tour, you absolutely need GSL as well. Clem and Serral, an in-form Reynor are some scary sharks at the top of the food chain absolutely, but of the top 15/30 players let’s say, a lot are still Koreans. Will those folks stick around with even less opportunity? And if many decide now is a good time to transition to other careers, I think that has a big knock-on effect on interest for international tournaments. I think historically Koreans have always been the worst when it comes down to "sticking around". Maybe it is because of the high-living cost or the expectations, but I feel like Korea is either in it 100% or (almost) completly out. Just look at WC3 after the MBC Map Scandal. Only a small margin of the korean players decided to seek out their luck with european teams, basically just the best of the best. And don't even start looking for koreans in DotA2 or CS. Basically, if there isn't a homegrown scene and interest for it, with korean teams, korean players will be out en masse. The end of Proleague also worked along those lines, with a lot more players instantly retiring before even trying to stick it out. And to be fair: GSL alone is most certainly not financing the koreans at this point, it is just the means to qualify for the big prizepools. Without ESL, GSL is more or less pointless in its current form. And since Twitch left Korea, I'm not even sure you could make a living as a korean streamer? Doesn't feel like Afreeca is a good patch of internet to play SC2 on... | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
On September 30 2024 04:41 geokilla wrote: CS2 BLAST finals had over 150k watching simultaneously on YouTube today. Worlds play-in had a peak of over 1.4m viewers today. Food for thought. For me, "SC2 continuing" means we have dedicated professional players and dedicated tournaments like what we've been getting in the past few years with the ESL Pro Tour. I want our players to be able to make a living doing what they're good at. If there's no professional tournaments (online cups and HSC doesn't count), naturally sponsorships will decrease and contracts will not renew. Then skill level will decline over time as players play less and prepare for their next stage in life. I know it's hard to accept but in my opinion, this is the beginning of the end. False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership  wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote: False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame.Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote: Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe. Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
On September 30 2024 17:13 WombaT wrote: Just gotta be big enough, I mean Metallica probably aren’t a 1/4 as popular as Taylor Swift but they can still sell out every gig going Hopefully some RTS can return to those kind of levels one day! Doubtful, unfortunately.. But one can always have hope, of course. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On September 30 2024 16:11 M3t4PhYzX wrote: False. BLAST Fall Finals had around 900k watching at it's peak. Valve's games are absolutely dominating e-sport viewership wish RTS were even 1/4th as popular.. Damn shame.I said YouTube. I don't watch on Twitch if I don't have to since YouTube has better quality and higher resolution. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On September 30 2024 18:47 Harris1st wrote: Taylor swift may be more popular in music streaming apps and radio charts but oh boy could Metallica fill stadiums and halls around the globe. Anyone know a site where you can track YT views like streamcharts does for twitch and stuff? Which I covered by ‘they can sell out every gig going’ :p But you need to do that, for whatever reason SC2 isn’t really doing that anymore. If we took numbers from the first few years and transported them into now, SC2 still isn’t a Taylor Swift like a CS or a League, it’s still a Metallica I still fervently believe there’s that appetite, just someone has to deliver in appealing. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On October 01 2024 00:11 WombaT wrote: Which I covered by ‘they can sell out every gig going’ :p But you need to do that, for whatever reason SC2 isn’t really doing that anymore. If we took numbers from the first few years and transported them into now, SC2 still isn’t a Taylor Swift like a CS or a League, it’s still a Metallica I still fervently believe there’s that appetite, just someone has to deliver in appealing. Well having it in Saudi was an issue. Even CS2 and League didn't sell out in Saudi. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On September 24 2024 10:37 BLinD-RawR wrote: its not now. I mean . . . this is the worst SC2 has ever been by far? Like even if anything gets announced there's not likely to be anything this year other than maybe a single HSC. That means at least 4 months without a major tournament (with love to HSC). And of course there was a decent amount of time before EWC. I don't know how it's even possible for any pro to still be playing unless you stream/YouTube/top 10 player. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On October 01 2024 08:21 geokilla wrote: Well having it in Saudi was an issue. Even CS2 and League didn't sell out in Saudi. Perhaps this wasn’t my best chosen analogy haha | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
Hope this will change soon. | ||
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johnnyh123
91 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On October 07 2024 13:42 johnnyh123 wrote: Man, fingers crossed. Hoping for just 1 more year of ESL/GSL. people been hoping that for a while. it has to end at some point... | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50101 Posts
On October 09 2024 12:19 Antithesis wrote: https://x.com/EWC_EN/status/1843712974973772282 thats good. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On October 09 2024 12:19 Antithesis wrote: https://x.com/EWC_EN/status/1843712974973772282 You don't post something like this when you plan to drop Starcraft... right? right? | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On October 09 2024 12:19 Antithesis wrote: https://x.com/EWC_EN/status/1843712974973772282 Only tells me other games dont care and sc2 is desperate | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
Thank god the community will keep it going in some capacity. Still, makes me sad  | ||
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followZeRoX
Serbia1449 Posts
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2380 Posts
On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote: SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported. Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. wc2 is just a great game and microsoft has done lots of old rts remasters in recent years | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote: SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported. Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. I would disagree. WC2 Remastered has no implication (neither good nor bad) for Microsoft thoughts about competitive RTS. They just work through their portfolio. And if this years Age of Mythology Retold is any indicator, we can expect great things from WC2. Even if it will "just" be a Remastered with no changes, it will probably still be great. Just wished they would do WC1 and 2 together, though that might be too big of a project. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote: SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported. Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
On November 07 2024 01:03 SmoKim wrote: So with no news from ESL, Blizz or anyone, i guess it safe to say that SC2 Esports is dead? No, nothing's certain before the full details of EWC25 have been released with the definitive announcement of the games for which there will and will not be a 2025 circuit. Actually I am still moderately optimistic that there will be another SC2 circuit, and to my understanding this sentiment is still common among pros and casters alike. HeroMarine for instance recently expressed it, though admitting it's pure speculation. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote: Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote: Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. An underrated point I feel. Streaming has been around for ages of course, but that streaming/content creator route has got more and more and more polished and is just crushing competitive gaming in quite a few games. Personally gimme a good tournament to watch, but I think I’m increasingly in the minority, especially as you go younger And hey, from a welfare perspective can’t begrudge it, aside from the difficulty of actually building your stream, gotta be a less stressful day-to-day existence. Of course if it completely supplants actual professional competition in most games, skilled gamers who aren’t natural entertainers won’t really have an outlet for their skills and will have to do something else. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote: The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. It’s quite strange to me. People will happily donate to streamers or sub to them, but my intuition is wouldn’t pay for something like a tournament watching pass. I can’t think of anyone who tried outside maybe GOM in SC2’s early days. Broadcasting deals and live attendance revenues are a huge part of what makes regular sport viable commercially. I think it’s obvious why the latter proves difficult. eSports’ Biggest asset is a low bar to entry and not being geographically locked down in terms of playing them, but that’s a hindrance in pulling in revenue from live events. But quite how they’ve consistently struggled to pull money from broadcasting in great numbers, that’s a bit more curious. I guess the relationship of the broadcast mediums is totally different. Sky Sports will pay big, big money to the English Premier League to show their product, or the NFL with their broadcast partners. Then people will pay money for their Sky Sports subscription. Whereas any eSport event will be on Twitch or YouTube. I’m unsure of the mechanics of it, or the breakdowns but I imagine whatever eSports org will get a cut of whatever ad revenue that broadcast generates, and the platform itself will take a cut. I don’t know how that problem gets solved. But it feels to me that it’s not purely a problem of turning interest into revenue, but also in actually holding on to what revenue is generated. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On November 08 2024 06:04 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job Hey man you hate SC2, we get it | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
He is just really lonely and bored with BW. Poor guy | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
Funny how your only replies are personal attacks User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On November 08 2024 07:36 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: I just hate people lying to themselves and the constant delusions. Funny how your only replies are personal attacks User was temp banned for this post. If you could be arsed to look I’ve criticised the funding of the rowdy Saudis on innumerable occasions But hey, listening to what other people actually say and engaging is tough these days, I get that | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On November 08 2024 03:59 Waxangel wrote: I think the info we have makes it clear that there will be SOME form of ESL-run SC2 in 2025—it's now a matter of what scale it will be on. While fans can be cautiously optimistic, we should also be prepared for even further contraction. yup. agreed, and i think contraction is likely. it'll probably get smaller and thats okay. we were worried it wasn't going to be around at all. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote: The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. | ||
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Blitzball04
180 Posts
I hate wombat patch. You feel me | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
Many do, including me | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote: The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. I take back what i said i misread | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote: Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. | ||
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Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote: The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. It was also one of Twitch's biggest financial losses ever, so it's safe to say we won't see that ever happening again any time soon. Esports suffers a bit from the problem of there simply being too much online content. Esports competes with streamers, and it also competes with itself. I have only been a consistent viewer of maybe 2 or 3 esports at once. Starcraft & Melee are probably the only two I watch regularly and follow the events of. Perhaps if a big Valorant tournament is on, I'll tune in. Meanwhile, any time I want to watch esports content, I'm deciding between this tournament I'm casually invested in, or watching streamers / youtube / tv shows / etc. Perhaps we can think about esports like we do less popular sports. Does anyone here know who the best players in Bowling, or Pool, or Badminton are? Does anyone here even follow those sports? I've seen a couple tournaments before, and I've watched some badminton olympics before, but I can assure you that very little of my money went from my pocket to their bank accounts due to sponsorships / advertising / broadcasting rights for those sports. And consequently, the majority of pros in those sports are broke and make very little money. Shit, even tennis players outside the top 200 make pretty mediocre amounts. Chess is the same way. Plenty of fans, and even a moderate amount of money in it. But the only people with meaningful incomes are top 20. Everyone else is either poor, born rich, or being bankrolled by their government. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 08 2024 11:59 Blargh wrote: It was also one of Twitch's biggest financial losses ever, so it's safe to say we won't see that ever happening again any time soon. Esports suffers a bit from the problem of there simply being too much online content. Esports competes with streamers, and it also competes with itself. I have only been a consistent viewer of maybe 2 or 3 esports at once. Starcraft & Melee are probably the only two I watch regularly and follow the events of. Perhaps if a big Valorant tournament is on, I'll tune in. Meanwhile, any time I want to watch esports content, I'm deciding between this tournament I'm casually invested in, or watching streamers / youtube / tv shows / etc. Perhaps we can think about esports like we do less popular sports. Does anyone here know who the best players in Bowling, or Pool, or Badminton are? Does anyone here even follow those sports? I've seen a couple tournaments before, and I've watched some badminton olympics before, but I can assure you that very little of my money went from my pocket to their bank accounts due to sponsorships / advertising / broadcasting rights for those sports. And consequently, the majority of pros in those sports are broke and make very little money. Shit, even tennis players outside the top 200 make pretty mediocre amounts. Chess is the same way. Plenty of fans, and even a moderate amount of money in it. But the only people with meaningful incomes are top 20. Everyone else is either poor, born rich, or being bankrolled by their government. I mean, most sports compete with each other. There is a reason why most sports try to avoid each other as best as possible. Or in easier terms: Whenever there is a FIFA World Cup or UEFA European Championship, you can bet that literally nothing else will be hosted in Europe at that time - because it is just pointless. Anyway, you are nailing it: Esports is clearly not on the level of Football or the Big US Leagues. But it is also not as bad as a lot of other sports are. I often say a lot of athletes would love to have the funding LoL or CS:GO offers. Not that most Esports players get reach, it ranged from a nice sidejob to actually getting rich - which are a select few, depending on the game (e.g. Serral). But hey, the Esports journey is kind of young, almost 30 years at best. It's not like even the big sports have been financial successes right from the get-go. Pretty sure a good chunk of the '54 Heroes of Bern still had regular job. The first german female football team that won anything big got a freaking tea set as payment...and that was just ~30 years ago aswell. | ||
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johnnyh123
91 Posts
Same as eSports, I think eSports will get bigger. But individual titles and games within that bucket will inevitably fall. Computers change generation every year or every two years, humans change generation every 30 years and with little to no change in fundamentals (unfortunately or fortunately, Moore's law not applicable to human evolution/biology). Back to SC2, fingers crossed for another year of fun, just hoping the Saudi $ can be announced sooner. Lots of top players are removed from Aligulac ranking bcuz of inactivity already. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote: The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. The tv deals are what I was referring too. It is sponsor dependent, just not directly. The tv companies pay a lot of money because they are able to sell advertising and make a profit. The leagues, at least the US ones, consider those advertisers as their sponsors. The leagues do work closely with some of the bigger advertisers but at the same time, the tv companies have more business experience so it helps having them as an intermediary. If Twitch tried that avenue with Blizzard and lost money on it, that's a huge problem for esports. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 13 2024 01:20 andrewlt wrote: The tv deals are what I was referring too. It is sponsor dependent, just not directly. The tv companies pay a lot of money because they are able to sell advertising and make a profit. The leagues, at least the US ones, consider those advertisers as their sponsors. The leagues do work closely with some of the bigger advertisers but at the same time, the tv companies have more business experience so it helps having them as an intermediary. If Twitch tried that avenue with Blizzard and lost money on it, that's a huge problem for esports. I'm honestly not sure who lost how much on the OWL, but it certainly wasn't a great promotion for these kind of deals. But that was also when Youtube, Mixer and Facebook (who got EPL in CSGO) tried to get a slice of the market aswell. Today, there is basically no real competition for Twitch anymore, so there is also not much reason to even pay for these kind of deals. Btw: EWC 2025 has been officially confirmed, though with no news about the games etc. So we got a tiny bit closer to an answer. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On November 13 2024 05:24 Balnazza wrote: I'm honestly not sure who lost how much on the OWL, but it certainly wasn't a great promotion for these kind of deals. But that was also when Youtube, Mixer and Facebook (who got EPL in CSGO) tried to get a slice of the market aswell. Today, there is basically no real competition for Twitch anymore, so there is also not much reason to even pay for these kind of deals. Btw: EWC 2025 has been officially confirmed, though with no news about the games etc. So we got a tiny bit closer to an answer. Yeah good point, Twitch is basically as dominant in that space as YouTube is in the user-produced VoD space. So they don’t really have incentive to do big, statement deals. I think there’s so many points of failure in the OWL league that it’s difficult to really draw too many conclusions about individual calls, or modules. Some were even purely unfortunate circumstance. I mean Covid hit them much harder than other eSports orgs, because they tried to build a different kind of model For example, having regional or city-based franchises. I can see that actually working, but I think you can’t half-ass an appeal to regional pride. The idk, ‘Belfast Bangers’ should be full of Belfastians. Let’s cheer our boys. Otherwise why bother doing franchises in that way? You also have the thing, I mean look it’s not easy to be an eSports pro. It’s way easier than being a professional footballer, or an NFL player. So you’re a young kid, you’ve got your Belfast Bangers, they’re probably getting smacked most week, but they’re there. You could realistically aspire to maybe get drafted onto that team in a few years if the barrier is being among the best in the region. That’s absolutely doable Having a franchise system where nation doesn’t really matter, it’s part 1 why care about a particular one, and 2 you push the bar up that aspiring players have to be world elite level to ever get a shot. Some of the biggest initial strides made in eSports had nation at their centre, and I think there are also some advantages there. I’m thinking WCG specifically. The Olympics aren’t the best of the best. They’re the couple/several best from each nation, so who’s actually #1 doesn’t functionally change, but you open up all sorts of other reasonable, achievable goals for many. Maybe you can scrape a medal that you couldn’t do if it was purely the best 10 competitors or whatever. Maybe just GOING to the Olympics and seeing how you compete is your level. It’s a good model, I think WCG emulating it was wise but we’ve never really seen it fully replicated lately. What that model does well, and you notice when it drops, is it maintains localised grass roots competitions, because there’s a set of graduating goals. I’m one of a handful of people who really worked to build a connected local scene here, and subsequently expanded to be all-Ireland. Like 16 or so LANs down, which we usually just consider a de-facto Northern Irish and subsequently Irish championship. It’s hard to maintain enthusiasm, or at least a competitive standard of people really trying. Especially with a population that’s getting older and has less time. For whatever reason the UK doesn’t really have a tradition of top RTS players, Northern Ireland being a part of that doesn’t, and Ireland doesn’t either. So people who maybe could try to go pro have to get really fucking good and make connections with folks in mainland Europe. It’s not impossible but it’s hard I’ve said it for about 14 years, a new WCG would be absolutely fantastic for the overall scene, especially in nations where there’s not a big cohort of pro players. You can still keep elite, best of the best competition, and in parallel you have those kind of events. You build grassroots scenes because they have more realistic incentives. Rather than ‘OK I’m the best in Ireland, hey thats cool’, you have ‘I’m the best of Ireland, fuck yeah I’m going to WCG’ or whatever Nation Wars is another competition I really loved for these kinda reasons. We failed to make the grade as a nation but we had qualifiers to shoot for and those were fun too. And results perhaps didn’t indicate it, but I can assure you Irish players were practicing and playing together a lot more with that there! For my money eSports needs graduation if it’s to ever fully succeed and actualise its potential. This is something established sports have. From local competition, to being an Irish Olympian or whatever, to being an elite competitor, and all those various stages. So long as eSports is either you’re a decent amateur who plays on ladder, or an actual (relatively) top tier pro and not much in between, I think it’ll be unable to fully realise its potential. | ||
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
It also says Summer 2025, Riyadh (in the black ops image). https://www.esportsworldcup.com/en | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On November 14 2024 17:20 Ludwigvan wrote: they have a countdown of the games that will be part of the World Cup in 2025 on their main page (announcement of an announcement?). It's 24 games in total. One has already been announced, next one to be announced is in two days. Last one to be announced will be in 39 days. So, just before Christmas all games will have been announced (I guess). It also says Summer 2025, Riyadh (in the black ops image). https://www.esportsworldcup.com/en This year had 23 games right? I'm like 99% sure SC2 is among the games. If for the same kind of money remains to be seeb | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
Doesn’t have to all be ESL events or whatever. We’ve not got WTL anymore, partly due to EWC itself. But on the plus side the Chinese scene may do some regular LAN tournaments to compensate. We’ve got that cool Bulgarian tournament coming back, so that’s nice You need other events to build storylines, narratives, as well as sustain interest as a viewer, and viability as a pro player | ||
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
On November 14 2024 21:13 Harris1st wrote: This year had 23 games right? I'm like 99% sure SC2 is among the games. If for the same kind of money remains to be seeb this year I counted 22 games from their website. but they might get new games AND get rid of other games. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On November 15 2024 02:51 Ludwigvan wrote: this year I counted 22 games from their website. but they might get new games AND get rid of other games. I guess they'll go with the anual updated games like Call of Duty, Fifa and the likes obviously makes sense. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On November 16 2024 01:05 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Feels like Warcraft 3 route is coming for Starcraft 2. What is the WC3 Route in this context? | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
90 to 95% of all tournaments played online. Smaller prize pool. Much smaller player pool. Community lead competition. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On November 16 2024 01:05 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Feels like Warcraft 3 route is coming for Starcraft 2. Starcraft 2 Reforged 2.0 Remaster? | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10301 Posts
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ZeroByte13
756 Posts
On November 19 2024 00:10 SmoKim wrote: Yeah but why would ESWC want that?Imagine if just ½ the money from ESWC SC2 Prizepool went to a yearly ESL circuit They want to be able to claim they have tournaments with highest prizepools for many or even most esports games, including SC2 - mostly because of its legacy. They don't care about SC2 year-long circuit and why would they? | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
On November 19 2024 02:44 ZeroByte13 wrote: Yeah but why would ESWC want that? They want to be able to claim they have tournaments with highest prizepools for many or even most esports games, including SC2 - mostly because of its legacy. They don't care about SC2 year-long circuit and why would they? Its ESL job to run the circuit and they need to find a way, otherwise just cancel the whole EPT thing rather than making us waiting for nothing. At this point they can only run 1 or 2 max tournament before EWC next year, IEM probably also dead at this point, so there isnt much of a pro-tour even if they want to start now. Just man up and say that there is no more EPT, wait till Apr/May for potential announcement on EWC, thats it. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
Crank: states he is 99% sure SC2 will not be in EWC, as chess will be the "strategy" replacement. He also says that many korean players will retire as a result if it is not announced. World Team League: Shares a similar sentiment and has been vocal on twitter pleading for EWC to incorporate SC2 and chess is not a fitting replacement. Oliveira: Feeling uncertainty, contemplating retirement, only still competing in Olimoleague finals because crank begged him. soO: retires. Dark: Dropped from Talon Esports (Dec. 10th), who recruited him specifically for EWC, in hopes of acquiring club points. | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
On November 19 2024 14:39 tigera6 wrote: Its ESL job to run the circuit and they need to find a way, otherwise just cancel the whole EPT thing rather than making us waiting for nothing. At this point they can only run 1 or 2 max tournament before EWC next year, IEM probably also dead at this point, so there isnt much of a pro-tour even if they want to start now. Just man up and say that there is no more EPT, wait till Apr/May for potential announcement on EWC, thats it. If no more funding from Blizzard/MSFT then it may not be their job to run anything if they don't find it profitable I suppose. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 23 2024 21:52 CicadaSC wrote: I would say it's not looking good. Let's look at some recent information pointing in that direction. Crank: states he is 99% sure SC2 will not be in EWC, as chess will be the "strategy" replacement. He also says that many korean players will retire as a result if it is not announced. World Team League: Shares a similar sentiment and has been vocal on twitter pleading for EWC to incorporate SC2 and chess is not a fitting replacement. Oliveira: Feeling uncertainty, contemplating retirement, only still competing in Olimoleague finals because crank begged him. soO: retires. Dark: Dropped from Talon Esports (Dec. 10th), who recruited him specifically for EWC, in hopes of acquiring club points. Gotta say: If ESL cancels on us now, it would be unnecessarily cruel. I can't imagine the EWC Foundation at this point doesn't know the games for next year yet. So if there won't be SC2, they would know and the only reason not to announce it would be to keep up some suspense for the game-announcements...which is unnecessary, considering how relatively small the fanbase of Starcraft is. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
On December 23 2024 22:28 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: If no more funding from Blizzard/MSFT then it may not be their job to run anything if they don't find it profitable I suppose. Like I said, just say "we dont have any tournament planned", rather than trying to drop a cliff-hanger statement and then stay completely silence. I am not saying they have to give the money for the WC, but their job is too communicate to players and fanbase, even if its bad news. | ||
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On December 23 2024 23:16 tigera6 wrote: Like I said, just say "we dont have any tournament planned", rather than trying to drop a cliff-hanger statement and then stay completely silence. I am not saying they have to give the money for the WC, but their job is too communicate to players and fanbase, even if its bad news. It’s irritating as a fan, but if you’re a player these kind of delays make it almost impossible to make informed career decisions. Be that a straight no, a straight yes with details or a ‘we’re hoping to run a circuit again, we just haven’t finalised details and prize pools yet.’ It also makes it difficult to transition to something else. It may be that something more akin to how the WC3 scene looks now is the future, and hey I think that could be fine. But community organisers can’t really do that right now because a lot of fan interest is still tied up in the possibility of the kind of tournament cycle we’re accustomed to. It’s a mess really and doesn’t reflect well on the orgs involved | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 23 2024 23:46 WombaT wrote: It’s irritating as a fan, but if you’re a player these kind of delays make it almost impossible to make informed career decisions. Be that a straight no, a straight yes with details or a ‘we’re hoping to run a circuit again, we just haven’t finalised details and prize pools yet.’ It also makes it difficult to transition to something else. It may be that something more akin to how the WC3 scene looks now is the future, and hey I think that could be fine. But community organisers can’t really do that right now because a lot of fan interest is still tied up in the possibility of the kind of tournament cycle we’re accustomed to. It’s a mess really and doesn’t reflect well on the orgs involved It's especially depressing if you consider that ESL already dropped their Counterstrike-schedule for 2026... But yeah, being in the vacuum is even worse than knowing shit is going down. I remember when the german WC3 EPS shutdown back in...2011 maybe? At that point, we were running an amateur-level 1v1 league and the day the announcement dropped, one player came into our IRC, said "I'm retiring and leave the league" and was gone forever, never to be seen. And he wasn't even in the EPS, he was still trying to qualify for it. But without the EPS-money, he had no reason to continue to play WC3 even as a hobby. That being said - on the other hand it took the german community a month or two to announce new projects. Of course, this was pre-Crowdfunding, we couldn't balance out the huge monetary loss, but we could gather enough money to keep a somewhat competitive german-scene around for a few more years, until SC2 basically killed it completly. But these kind of actions only can happen when you know what's up. We couldn't have found any sponsors for a 1v1 league as long as the EPS was around, there wouldn't have been any traction for that. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1809 Posts
On December 23 2024 21:52 CicadaSC wrote: I would say it's not looking good. Let's look at some recent information pointing in that direction. Crank: states he is 99% sure SC2 will not be in EWC, as chess will be the "strategy" replacement. He also says that many korean players will retire as a result if it is not announced. World Team League: Shares a similar sentiment and has been vocal on twitter pleading for EWC to incorporate SC2 and chess is not a fitting replacement. Oliveira: Feeling uncertainty, contemplating retirement, only still competing in Olimoleague finals because crank begged him. soO: retires. Dark: Dropped from Talon Esports (Dec. 10th), who recruited him specifically for EWC, in hopes of acquiring club points. Just a heads up, soO's retirement is more about him enjoying BW (plus other personal choices) than whatever concerns he might have about the future of StarCraft II. The other issues you raised stand, but I wouldn't read into soO's situation the same way. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On December 24 2024 03:19 Mizenhauer wrote: Just a heads up, soO's retirement is more about him enjoying BW (plus other personal choices) than whatever concerns he might have about the future of StarCraft II. The other issues you raised stand, but I wouldn't read into soO's situation the same way. Clearly, soO does not care about the guaranteed money of streaming BW (total donations of about a total 10 million USD a year) and the 5million so far from daily proleagues within 2 years. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On December 24 2024 11:31 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Clearly, soO does not care about the guaranteed money of streaming BW (total donations of about a total 10 million USD a year) and the 5million so far from daily proleagues within 2 years. How guaranteed is it for soO though? Hey people make plenty of dough on Onlyfans, I highly doubt I would if I popped on there. We get it, you don’t like SC2 and want to shit on it at every opportunity, great. You do you. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 24 2024 11:42 WombaT wrote: How guaranteed is it for soO though? Hey people make plenty of dough on Onlyfans, I highly doubt I would if I popped on there. We get it, you don’t like SC2 and want to shit on it at every opportunity, great. You do you. Haven't you learned by now that BW is an endless pit of money that makes everyone with 7 viewers a millionaire in two days? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On December 24 2024 15:26 Balnazza wrote: Haven't you learned by now that BW is an endless pit of money that makes everyone with 7 viewers a millionaire in two days? I wanted to keep it quiet so I could continue to live the millionaire life | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1809 Posts
On December 24 2024 11:31 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Clearly, soO does not care about the guaranteed money of streaming BW (total donations of about a total 10 million USD a year) and the 5million so far from daily proleagues within 2 years. Tell yourself whatever you like to make sure it fits your weird bw agenda. zzzzzzzzzzz | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
On December 24 2024 16:19 WombaT wrote: I wanted to keep it quiet so I could continue to live the millionaire life LOL nice nice | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On December 24 2024 15:26 Balnazza wrote: Haven't you learned by now that BW is an endless pit of money that makes everyone with 7 viewers a millionaire in two days? Funny you say that https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs In 2023 on Afreeca, the top 250 BW streamer, Saber who has like 7 viewers, made 15k USD in 9 months in balloon donation, about 3 times that of whole SC2 made in balloon donations combined (including GSL). TY, the top SC2 streamer made 3.7k in 9 months. The second made a WHOOPING 268 dollars in 9 months. Note that TY already streamed BW in 2023, so is he really a SC2 streamer? Soo made 20 dollars in 9 months in donation. Meanwhile, the top 10 is above 300k in 9 months. But please, move the goal posts even more only to get crushed with facts and logic User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4170 Posts
On December 25 2024 23:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Funny you say that https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs In 2023 on Afreeca, the top 250 BW streamer, Saber who has like 7 viewers, made 15k USD in 9 months in balloon donation, about 3 times that of whole SC2 made in balloon donations combined (including GSL). TY, the top SC2 streamer made 3.7k in 9 months. The second made a WHOOPING 268 dollars in 9 months. Note that TY already streamed BW in 2023, so is he really a SC2 streamer? Soo made 20 dollars in 9 months in donation. Meanwhile, the top 10 is above 300k in 9 months. But please, move the goal posts even more only to get crushed with facts and logic Kind of weird that anybody would argue against streaming BW being a much more profitable endeavour than streaming SC2 or even playing in SC2 tournaments for a South Korean pro. Especially considering soO's stature in the scene. Really hope we will see him in many games of The Daily Proleague and in the next season of ASL.. uhh, SSL I mean. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On December 26 2024 04:55 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Kind of weird that anybody would argue against streaming BW being a much more profitable endeavour than streaming SC2 or even playing in SC2 tournaments for a South Korean pro. Especially considering soO's stature in the scene. Really hope we will see him in many games of The Daily Proleague and in the next season of ASL.. uhh, SSL I mean. I think it depends on your level. If you are a top player some of the SC2 tournaments, at least in 2023 and 2024, have $100,000s of thousands for first or second place at times. How much did Clem make this year? Serral? If you are a middling player and can choose between bw and SC2, bw is probably better. If you're at the level of winning tourneys, you can probably make more playing SC2. BW streaming is highly saturated at the moment. Look at ForGG, he won tournaments in both games and his viewer count sits ~10-20 viewers in bw. Streaming bw does not automatically make you more money as a Korean pro. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
122 Posts
On December 26 2024 05:40 CicadaSC wrote: I think it depends on your level. If you are a top player some of the SC2 tournaments, at least in 2023 and 2024, have $100,000s of thousands for first or second place at times. How much did Clem make this year? Serral? If you are a middling player and can choose between bw and SC2, bw is probably better. If you're at the level of winning tourneys, you can probably make more playing SC2. BW streaming is highly saturated at the moment. Look at ForGG, he won tournaments in both games and his viewer count sits ~10-20 viewers in bw. Streaming bw does not automatically make you more money as a Korean pro. Two players (!) made '100,000s of thousands' (who the fuck words it like that lmao), then proceeds that 'bw streaming is saturated'. BW streaming is highly saturated at the moment Right the highly saturated bw streaming where the 250th worst streamer makes 15k in 9 months... Just saying, the top 100 BW streamers make '100,000s of thousands' (according to your wording). Streaming bw does not automatically make you more money as a Korean pro Yeah, just be Serral or Clem, np. I am awaiting what you argument is gonna be when EWC will not announce SC2, because then Serral and Clem will earn the same as everyone else without Saudi blood money. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
Or hell, some live for that tournament scene, the pure competition and a more streaming-centric landscape isn’t really their jam. Jangbi could have made dough but decided it wasn’t really for him, Fantasy stuck at SC2 for quite a while and never really fully returned despite much interest for similar reasons. For many others, sure BW’s a great option. Be it bank balance, passion, or whatever else motivates you, people will make the right call for them and don’t need the likes of me chipping in You do this remarkable thing where you take BW, which I love and by being so, so frequently obnoxious about it, in basically every conceivable thread you pop up in that you temporarily make me annoyed at BW by proxy. Hell I even largely agree re Saudi money as my posting history attests to, but you manage to be irksome about that as well. Can you just give it a bloody rest? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 25 2024 23:59 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Funny you say that https://tl.net/forum/brood-war/616880-2023q3-top100-balloon-donation-for-all-sc1-and-2-bjs In 2023 on Afreeca, the top 250 BW streamer, Saber who has like 7 viewers, made 15k USD in 9 months in balloon donation, about 3 times that of whole SC2 made in balloon donations combined (including GSL). TY, the top SC2 streamer made 3.7k in 9 months. The second made a WHOOPING 268 dollars in 9 months. Note that TY already streamed BW in 2023, so is he really a SC2 streamer? Soo made 20 dollars in 9 months in donation. Meanwhile, the top 10 is above 300k in 9 months. But please, move the goal posts even more only to get crushed with facts and logic 1)Liking BroodWar is not a personality...again. 2)Most of the streamers on that list are female...but surely it is only about liking Broodwar  3)No one argues that streaming BW in Korea is much more valuable than streaming SC2. Doesn't mean anything, except when you tryhard it to mean something. 4)Isn't it funny how much you wank about these numbers, but they are still kind of pathetic? According to Statista/Google, the average korean income per month is around 4 million Won (in 2023) or ~2900 US Dollar. In the list you quoted, only the top 250 streamer reach that quota over nine month. Meaning if you are not in the Top 250, you will make below average income. And on that very list the number drops rather quickly from 250 to 300. Saber, the guy you mentioned, didn't make "15K", he made closer to 10K over nine month. Meaning he made less than a 1000$ per month. In my country, that has I believe lower living costs than Korea, that is the kind of money you make by working 80 hours per month at the most. So really...BW is "nice money". But if you are not reaching a certain elite level, you won't make a living out of it in Korea. Which again, is kind of funny, considering how many Twitch streamers live from 200-300 viewers easily... Btw: Around 8000$ is the kind of money MaNa apparently made in Earnings alone in SC2 this year...and he really didn't win anything...you know, considering how much you wank about the numbers, you would really think BW is making millionaires left and right every day... But since it is christmas: I apologize to any sane BW fan. I really do not want to diss your favorite game. I love what Broodwar has done to Esports and I would love to get a succesful, amazing Proleague for an RTS I love one day again. None of this is really a shot against your favorite game or you. This tosspot is just pissing me the fuck off with his pseudo-love for a game he doesn't even care about. Dude is literally not involved in any Broodwar discussions, his entire purpose is to stalk the SC2 forum to troll and fix his inferiority complex. And I honestly, no front dear TL-Admins, do not understand how someone like that hasn't gotten banned more often. It's this kind of negativity that literally does add zero value to the forum or any discussion. And I know TL is not farming the clicks these kind of imbeciles produce. If for my flowery language and going offtopic you decide to give me a warning, I fully understand. But I feel better already, sorry for interrupting the christmas peace with my ranting. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On December 26 2024 07:17 Balnazza wrote: 1)Liking BroodWar is not a personality...again. 2)Most of the streamers on that list are female...but surely it is only about liking Broodwar 3)No one argues that streaming BW in Korea is much more valuable than streaming SC2. Doesn't mean anything, except when you tryhard it to mean something. 4)Isn't it funny how much you wank about these numbers, but they are still kind of pathetic? According to Statista/Google, the average korean income per month is around 4 million Won (in 2023) or ~2900 US Dollar. In the list you quoted, only the top 250 streamer reach that quota over nine month. Meaning if you are not in the Top 250, you will make below average income. And on that very list the number drops rather quickly from 250 to 300. Saber, the guy you mentioned, didn't make "15K", he made closer to 10K over nine month. Meaning he made less than a 1000$ per month. In my country, that has I believe lower living costs than Korea, that is the kind of money you make by working 80 hours per month at the most. So really...BW is "nice money". But if you are not reaching a certain elite level, you won't make a living out of it in Korea. Which again, is kind of funny, considering how many Twitch streamers live from 200-300 viewers easily... Btw: Around 8000$ is the kind of money MaNa apparently made in Earnings alone in SC2 this year...and he really didn't win anything...you know, considering how much you wank about the numbers, you would really think BW is making millionaires left and right every day... But since it is christmas: I apologize to any sane BW fan. I really do not want to diss your favorite game. I love what Broodwar has done to Esports and I would love to get a succesful, amazing Proleague for an RTS I love one day again. None of this is really a shot against your favorite game or you. This tosspot is just pissing me the fuck off with his pseudo-love for a game he doesn't even care about. Dude is literally not involved in any Broodwar discussions, his entire purpose is to stalk the SC2 forum to troll and fix his inferiority complex. And I honestly, no front dear TL-Admins, do not understand how someone like that hasn't gotten banned more often. It's this kind of negativity that literally does add zero value to the forum or any discussion. And I know TL is not farming the clicks these kind of imbeciles produce. If for my flowery language and going offtopic you decide to give me a warning, I fully understand. But I feel better already, sorry for interrupting the christmas peace with my ranting. Ask and you shall receive, Merry Grackmas! A rare example of a post of such a kind less mildly worded than one of mine. Back on topic and if memory serves you did a bunch of grass roots WC3 stuff, do you think this delay in announcements is doubly harmful? On one side the traditional pro scene can’t plan for anything without confirmation, but the grass roots or wider community can’t get anything big going either. If it’s a straight no, they can get to work and see what they can do. It’s hard to energise the community if there’s still the possibility that some giant tournament, or circuit run by one of the biggest eSport orgs in the world could drop at any minute. It feels to me like we’re in the worst of both worlds. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 26 2024 12:11 WombaT wrote: Ask and you shall receive, Merry Grackmas! A rare example of a post of such a kind less mildly worded than one of mine. Back on topic and if memory serves you did a bunch of grass roots WC3 stuff, do you think this delay in announcements is doubly harmful? On one side the traditional pro scene can’t plan for anything without confirmation, but the grass roots or wider community can’t get anything big going either. If it’s a straight no, they can get to work and see what they can do. It’s hard to energise the community if there’s still the possibility that some giant tournament, or circuit run by one of the biggest eSport orgs in the world could drop at any minute. It feels to me like we’re in the worst of both worlds. Woohooo! \ o / I think I answered your question somewhere kind of already: Yeah, the delay is harmful. For one, we as humans are "lazy" and that includes fans and creators alike. So as long as there is hope, "no one" will get their ass into gear and try something new - which is not meant to disregard all the cool community-lead cups and tournaments we already had since EWC! But more importantly, you can't plan your things without a clear answer from ESL. Imagine someone puts in the work and plans out a cool 1v1-league (like the Platinum League for Age of Empires), everything sounds great...and then ESL announces their new circuit for 2025 and everything planned goes out the window. So knowing what the future holds not only encourages grassroot project, it also secures them. | ||
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johncarter3232
1 Post
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
On December 26 2024 12:11 WombaT wrote: Ask and you shall receive, Merry Grackmas! A rare example of a post of such a kind less mildly worded than one of mine. Back on topic and if memory serves you did a bunch of grass roots WC3 stuff, do you think this delay in announcements is doubly harmful? On one side the traditional pro scene can’t plan for anything without confirmation, but the grass roots or wider community can’t get anything big going either. If it’s a straight no, they can get to work and see what they can do. It’s hard to energise the community if there’s still the possibility that some giant tournament, or circuit run by one of the biggest eSport orgs in the world could drop at any minute. It feels to me like we’re in the worst of both worlds. It's really sad, because no one knows anything. 1 ESL is not confirming anything. 2. ESWC is not confirming anything, there's still hope 3. Microsoft themselves didn't say anything, which in reality, they could just step in and sponsor some tournament regardless, it might be small, but they doing it for AOE stuff. But SC2 ain't even have a team, so I guess not, is not profitable for them, AOE2 / 4 for example still have actual team working on things, AOE4 has world edge team, I have personally interacted while working there long while back. And relic is doing dev work, World Edge handles Porduct/Release work. So they still putting out tournament and stuff from EGC I think I might buchtered the TO's name. But it's easy to find out. 4. Microsoft now literally owns all the popular RTS, until there is a real competitor in the space, I think it's actually super harmful for the community, I shit you not. Within Microsoft, especially people who worked there for a long time, there is a sentiment how Microsoft operates, if there is no competitor Microsoft actually has no idea how to operate, basically means, they have no innovation and investment in the space, if you know how IE was being shit and shitter, because IE was so dominate marketwise they literally pulled plug on all product development. Otherwise, there would never be a thing called Chrome. This tendency have me worreid about the future of SC2, becasue it is still the most slick and sick RTS for most people, some OG player may like brood war, especially korean, but the sheer mechanical requirement turns away most people. SC2 playing experience wise suits most player, because very very few poeple can get the macro side of things down in Brood war , let aloone micro bunch of shit around different places. At this point, this is just a really stupid cluster fuck of situation we are in. I am sure there are a tons of people would love to put in work to get grassroot stuff going, I mean there's a bunch of casters, Wardii /Olimoleague and stuff are there, if no other major tournament I mean community can get things going, might not be as profitable as a "professional circuit sponsored by Blizzard/Saudi" money but there still will be people competting, only matter of how serious. Hey I might have said some stupid reddit take on this forum from time to time, I don't run everything through my logic, but honestly, aside I am annoyed I cannot swap minimap from left to right, I don't hate the game that much. It is only a really stupid thing I am 37 now, I don't have the stupid 17YO reflex to check minimap like a stupid scanner 24/7 and instantly react to it, and sadly I am right eye dominated, so I put my minimap in other game all on the right side, my gun is left handed in CS2, it does help a lot. Probably because my eye got worse over the year too. I was thinking to ask blizzard/MSFT let me work for free to get the minimap swap support in but I don't think they would, because it wouldn't be free, even if I am there to change the code..... technically for free, all the other things that push / QA the code is not free, plus the time to ramp up, I really wish it had a way to do it And one of my friend actually use OBS to stream the minimap to the other screen on a BIG ASS Screen , lmao, maybe I should try that. LOL. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
I think going forward, we'll only get the smaller cups and community events hosted by guys like Rotti, Wardi, the likes. Don't hope for a huge offline event played in front of a large audience again. The money going into esports is shrinking and with the recent controversy around Twitch streamers and sponsors pulling out, I imagine the situation is more critical than we are led to believe. | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States693 Posts
On December 29 2024 06:29 geokilla wrote: Why can't the community accept that from a professional gaming level, SC2 is dead? The proof is there if we look at other professional esports shrinking as well. IEM Katowice is from February 7 to 9, which is just over a month away. It is historically one of the largest tournaments in the esports world. There's no way ESL or EWC is going to announce a SC2 tournament there with just over a month left. The amount of scrambling to get it set up and for teams to sign players would make it logistically rushed and probably impossible. I think going forward, we'll only get the smaller cups and community events hosted by guys like Rotti, Wardi, the likes. Don't hope for a huge offline event played in front of a large audience again. The money going into esports is shrinking and with the recent controversy around Twitch streamers and sponsors pulling out, I imagine the situation is more critical than we are led to believe. Because everyone is just guessing, including you. There are no announcements. There may be one that says "everything is great SC2 is back bb praise Aiur" or "everything is super not great, here's one LAN" or, as you predict, "everything really sucks and we're sorry but no more SC2 from ESL or EWC". No one knows, and no one is going to "accept" something that isn't proven one way or another. IEM Kato is certainly not happening considering the timeline, that is definitely true. Anything else? No one has any idea. So you can guess as much as anyone else, but leading your post with "Why can't the community accept that from a professional gaming level, SC2 is dead?" when there's zero announcements is a bit silly, no? Of course people won't accept something like that without confirmation. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On December 29 2024 06:29 geokilla wrote: Why can't the community accept that from a professional gaming level, SC2 is dead? The proof is there if we look at other professional esports shrinking as well. IEM Katowice is from February 7 to 9, which is just over a month away. It is historically one of the largest tournaments in the esports world. There's no way ESL or EWC is going to announce a SC2 tournament there with just over a month left. The amount of scrambling to get it set up and for teams to sign players would make it logistically rushed and probably impossible. I think going forward, we'll only get the smaller cups and community events hosted by guys like Rotti, Wardi, the likes. Don't hope for a huge offline event played in front of a large audience again. The money going into esports is shrinking and with the recent controversy around Twitch streamers and sponsors pulling out, I imagine the situation is more critical than we are led to believe. As long as EWC isn't fully logged in I will believe we'll get another banger. When in fact all EWC games are known and there is no SC2 then I can accept that it truly is over on a larger scale | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
On December 29 2024 06:40 ZombieGrub wrote: Because everyone is just guessing, including you. There are no announcements. There may be one that says "everything is great SC2 is back bb praise Aiur" or "everything is super not great, here's one LAN" or, as you predict, "everything really sucks and we're sorry but no more SC2 from ESL or EWC". No one knows, and no one is going to "accept" something that isn't proven one way or another. IEM Kato is certainly not happening considering the timeline, that is definitely true. Anything else? No one has any idea. So you can guess as much as anyone else, but leading your post with "Why can't the community accept that from a professional gaming level, SC2 is dead?" when there's zero announcements is a bit silly, no? Of course people won't accept something like that without confirmation. It sucks to be in this position for everyone involved, even the casual fan sometimes. A lot lot of guesses. :S | ||
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PurE)Rabbit-SF
United States642 Posts
On December 29 2024 08:10 Harris1st wrote: As long as EWC isn't fully logged in I will believe we'll get another banger. When in fact all EWC games are known and there is no SC2 then I can accept that it truly is over on a larger scale I mean waiting a few days -> week for job offer is already suck enough. Imagine a whole god damn sector of the Esport industry is left in the limbo waiting for offers. Sorry for ya'll are directly involved in the frontline, I apologize for anything I said over the line. Quite honestly ....... Microsoft/Blizzard should be more direct with things. It sucks they won't let go of the rights to organize stuff easily ;( | ||
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johnnyh123
91 Posts
I'm curious on their resource allocation for SC2, probably just a skeleton crew, especially as its not making them $ anymore anyways. I feel like many of the Blizzard games are living in their own legacy - SC, Diablo, WC, etc. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On December 31 2024 15:30 johnnyh123 wrote: Microsoft/Blizzard does have to cognizant of their entire portfolio of games. You can't be allowing stuff for one and not doing the same for another, especially as there's not that much upside for them financially. I'm curious on their resource allocation for SC2, probably just a skeleton crew, especially as its not making them $ anymore anyways. I feel like many of the Blizzard games are living in their own legacy - SC, Diablo, WC, etc. What are you wondering about? Blizzard announced years ago that SC2 is in Legacymode (or something like that), basically meaning Blizzard only guarantees that the servers keep running and will fix any ground-breaking bugs, but beyond that they don't have anyone actively working on the game. Other games in Legacymode are (I think) Diablo 3 (doesn't get new seasons), Starcraft: Remastered and Heroes of the Storm (no new champions, but gets patched from time to time). Pretty sure every other Blizzard Game in the Launcher gets atleast some sort of support as of now, of course with huge differences in teamsizes (WoW and Diablo 4 having assumely the biggest teams, WC3:R or Diablo 2 having by far the smallest). | ||
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Danyscott
2 Posts
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Ludwigvan
Germany2371 Posts
EDIT: but one game of the soon to be announced games was added. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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LaughNgamezYT
15 Posts
On January 28 2025 19:34 Ludwigvan wrote: esportsworldcup changed the dates of the reveals again. EDIT: but one game of the soon to be announced games was added. This is next level gas lighting | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On January 29 2025 18:25 SharkStarcraft wrote: At this point just tell us it's over and if something comes up unexpectedly - great news. This current state of affairs is just incredibly rude towards all those involved in professional SC2 at any scale. What an outrage - to be told that "news are coming soon" in August and then f&cking off for over half a year. I really expected better... if there wasnt anything coming they would have said it. they are working on deals and likely waiting for blizz approval (who knows how long that takes). the most likely scenario is they want to do something and have some sort of circuit. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
Could as well take another month or two | ||
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ScarletAerie
40 Posts
On January 28 2025 19:34 Ludwigvan wrote: esportsworldcup changed the dates of the reveals again. EDIT: but one game of the soon to be announced games was added. my guess is that the last game they just added probably Marvel Rivals | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On January 31 2025 18:58 Harris1st wrote: They changed the announcement dates so often... Could as well take another month or two Can't wait for the colossal clusterfuck of qualifiers they will have at their hands. This event is dated since a year ago and they have the infinite money glitch, with all the expertise of ESL at their hands, how are the Saudis still so bad at this? | ||
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JJH777
United States4383 Posts
On January 28 2025 23:55 CicadaSC wrote: come february i think we can officially say there will be a 2025 circuit. they would have said something by then otherwise. There will also be a GSL they wouldnt scam their patreon supporters by leaving it open. I want to believe this but I also partially wonder if Afreeca laid off everyone involved in SC2 and there is simply no one managing the patreon/it's been forgotten. I decided to cancel my sub finally out of fear of this scenario. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On February 01 2025 06:14 Balnazza wrote: Can't wait for the colossal clusterfuck of qualifiers they will have at their hands. This event is dated since a year ago and they have the infinite money glitch, with all the expertise of ESL at their hands, how are the Saudis still so bad at this? Because they don’t really give a fuck, or put the effort in to actually connect with various communities? Would be my best guess. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On February 03 2025 02:39 tigera6 wrote: On an unrelated note, with how MS just cancel the DLC for AoE3 sending a ripple through the other Age of community, I dont think they are in any position or has any desire to talk about SC2 scene. While that is true, "ripples" might be a bit of a stretch. AoE3 is, after all, the weakest of the four still supported games, so cutting it lose was honestly expected years ago. Especially considering that all games in the AoE-Franchise are under the same roof | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 03 2025 02:39 tigera6 wrote: On an unrelated note, with how MS just cancel the DLC for AoE3 sending a ripple through the other Age of community, I dont think they are in any position or has any desire to talk about SC2 scene. ehhh, these are rts developers, they have like a specific team for that right? perhaps they are being relocated to a secret SC3? :D MS/ACTVI sees it as a better use of their time/money? /shrug | ||
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Gilgamesh_
32 Posts
By the way, are there already fixed dates for EWC 25 ? Because even if they keep SC2 there will hardly be enough time for a true circuit if the "finals" is in Summer again. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
On February 03 2025 17:00 Gilgamesh_ wrote: EWC even had negative timers for the next game over the weekend xD By the way, are there already fixed dates for EWC 25 ? Because even if they keep SC2 there will hardly be enough time for a true circuit if the "finals" is in Summer again. There is no way to have a meaningful circuit for it. So it probably would just be multiple round of regional and global qualifiers if SC2 make it to EWC this year. | ||
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Maksim2010
35 Posts
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dysenterymd
1189 Posts
On February 03 2025 21:57 tigera6 wrote: There is no way to have a meaningful circuit for it. So it probably would just be multiple round of regional and global qualifiers if SC2 make it to EWC this year. Best case scenario tour gets announced tomorrow, there's an ESL masters in April, an ESL masters in early July, then ESWC in early August? Would be super tight, regionals might have to be shrunk. At this point I'd be happy with a single large offline tournament pre EWC that serves as a qualifier. | ||
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neoghaleon55
United States7435 Posts
They still took money last month, too | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
On February 04 2025 10:14 neoghaleon55 wrote: I just cancelled my GSL patreon monthly, since there's been no announcement of any tournaments. They still took money last month, too That's kind of shoddy I have to say. If you still have an active Patreon, i feel like you have to let people know what their money currently goes towards.. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On February 04 2025 17:06 SharkStarcraft wrote: That's kind of shoddy I have to say. If you still have an active Patreon, i feel like you have to let people know what their money currently goes towards.. Probably the guy managing Patreon no longer works there | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
On February 04 2025 17:18 Harris1st wrote: Probably the guy managing Patreon no longer works there This, or they forgot about the Patreon, or they don't care and take the free $$$ - in any case, it's a really really bad look. That's just no way to treat the people who saved you from going out of business a couple (?) years earlier than you did! | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On February 04 2025 10:14 neoghaleon55 wrote: I just cancelled my GSL patreon monthly, since there's been no announcement of any tournaments. They still took money last month, too Oh that's pretty weird—didn't they pause payments between seasons when the league was still active? Wonder what's up there. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On February 04 2025 17:06 SharkStarcraft wrote: That's kind of shoddy I have to say. If you still have an active Patreon, i feel like you have to let people know what their money currently goes towards.. Shouldn't you be able to refund your Patreon/report them? Which honestly, seems fair. It's not like Afreeca went out of business or anything, they are still up and kicking. Feels like a shady way to just put an extra buck aside. ...or, which is absolutely possible and realistic, they just care so little about their international fans (so like...95% of their fans) that they just forgot about it All but one of the EWC to-be-announced games had their "announcement" dates changed now to the end of this month. Lol. Can't wait for 2034, when we celebrate the 10th anniversary of EWC. Maybe they even announce the last few games for 2025! | ||
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PriyaFerguson
1 Post
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 05 2025 04:39 Balnazza wrote: Shouldn't you be able to refund your Patreon/report them? Which honestly, seems fair. It's not like Afreeca went out of business or anything, they are still up and kicking. Feels like a shady way to just put an extra buck aside. ...or, which is absolutely possible and realistic, they just care so little about their international fans (so like...95% of their fans) that they just forgot about it Can't wait for 2034, when we celebrate the 10th anniversary of EWC. Maybe they even announce the last few games for 2025! Mr. Chae, who used to work for GSL and then Afreeca, posted on Reddit a week or two ago that he thinks the Patreon is only up because they forgot about it and that last GSL was definitely the last one. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On February 05 2025 03:36 Pandain wrote: All but one of the EWC to-be-announced games had their "announcement" dates changed now to the end of this month. Lol. Yeah they change those on a daily basis. Can't really hold those placeholders accountable for any announcement. At this point it's basically somewhere between "SoonTM" and "When it's finishedTM" | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
It is *drumroll* Fatal Fury, a fighting game | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On February 07 2025 18:40 Harris1st wrote: Well, one announcement done, 5 to go. It is *drumroll* Fatal Fury, a fighting game That one is weird but makes sense, since the developer SNK was bought out by a Saudi entity in 2022 (I think this one is literally owned by MBS), and Fatal Fury: City of the Wolves is their newest title. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
On February 09 2025 10:33 CicadaSC wrote: february... how long do we have to wait? i was originally not caring very much but even I am starting to get annoyed by the delays. My best cope analysis now is that they are gonna do one big announcement when EWC does their big unveil of StarCraft I guess ESL will announce their circuit at the same time with tournaments awarding qualifying spots for EWC sort of like they used to do for Katowice. I hope you're right, the main argument for it is that if ESL esports was discontinued we'd probably have heard something. | ||
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TaKeTV
Germany1198 Posts
Having such a long delay again 2026 - no one needs that. | ||
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Natalielane
1 Post
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
On February 09 2025 20:49 TaKeTV wrote: I can only speculate myself but for me delays initially are a bad sign but further delays I see as more positive. If you assume this means there still IS conversation about if its included. Since its so little time to run a proper circuit I would also hope that whoever talks comes to the conclusion that they should commit to at least 2 years IF they decide to commit. Having such a long delay again 2026 - no one needs that. The 3 year WCS confirmation we got before blizzard left SC2 alone was amazing. | ||
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bulldozer06701
115 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 12 2025 01:08 bulldozer06701 wrote: 3 more games announced, including League of Legends. Only two spots left now. 100% will be sc2 rotti confirmed it | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
 (could not resist) | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3097 Posts
where/when was this???????? | ||
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Glorfindelio
195 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On February 13 2025 02:49 Glorfindelio wrote: Wait, is Rotti actually confirming in that clip (also isn't it the year of the snake) or is he just being cheeky... He isn’t 100% confirming, but he thinks it likely, he responded to someone mentioning this on Reddit the other day which I saw. IIRC the year of the snake was a legit fuckup on his part and not some cryptic bluff or anything. There was something about him being born in the year of the snake, SC2 will survive in the year of the snake and that’s a cool bit of synergy (or something). You’ve people going around saying he 100% confirmed it, and others going ‘actually he was playing mind games, notice it’s not actually the year of the snake!’, only Rotti just legitimately fucked up the Chinese year haha. One wonders what coulda been done if people had put half the energy of ‘EWC watch’ into thinking of ways to transition the scene years ago… | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On February 13 2025 04:05 WombaT wrote: He isn’t 100% confirming, but he thinks it likely, he responded to someone mentioning this on Reddit the other day which I saw. IIRC the year of the snake was a legit fuckup on his part and not some cryptic bluff or anything. There was something about him being born in the year of the snake, SC2 will survive in the year of the snake and that’s a cool bit of synergy (or something). You’ve people going around saying he 100% confirmed it, and others going ‘actually he was playing mind games, notice it’s not actually the year of the snake!’, only Rotti just legitimately fucked up the Chinese year haha. One wonders what coulda been done if people had put half the energy of ‘EWC watch’ into thinking of ways to transition the scene years ago… No one has definitively put their foot down on happening/not happening; people being very careful not to be declarative. This shit is like watching a transfer saga with a top athlete where it's all guarded speculation from a bunch of talking heads. SC2 to Real Madrid, IMHO  | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 13 2025 09:45 Waxangel wrote: No one has definitively put their foot down on happening/not happening; people being very careful not to be declarative. This shit is like watching a transfer saga with a top athlete where it's all guarded speculation from a bunch of talking heads. SC2 to Real Madrid, IMHO tbf that's what I thought at first then towards the end of the clip he did seem to be pretty declarative, let me rewatch and i can pull up a direct quote. "You guys can just keep refreshing the page a little longer, it is confirmed." https://www.twitch.tv/rotterdam08/clip/BumblingSuperManateeShadyLulu-zLw5ObShRVRaw-ea | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On February 13 2025 11:27 CicadaSC wrote: tbf that's what I thought at first then towards the end of the clip he did seem to be pretty declarative, let me rewatch and i can pull up a direct quote. "You guys can just keep refreshing the page a little longer, it is confirmed." https://www.twitch.tv/rotterdam08/clip/BumblingSuperManateeShadyLulu-zLw5ObShRVRaw-ea He made clear in a reddit post he doesn't have inside Intel it's just his instincts | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 13 2025 11:45 Pandain wrote: He made clear in a reddit post he doesn't have inside Intel it's just his instincts I'll keep my fingers crossed then. | ||
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
Edit: Not that the timer is to be trusted | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On February 14 2025 05:47 LaughNgamezSOOP wrote: One announcement got dropped down to 6 days Edit: Not that the timer is to be trusted We need an EWC Timer for the EWC Timer changes.... Also, in unrelated news: Team Liquid just signed Fabiano Caruana because of EWC...I'm so curious who will pay enough for Magnus Carlsen. Which is especially funny considering that Chess Players usually play for multiple teams (because Chess Team Play is so unimportant), Carlsen for examples plays for the german club St. Pauli | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1400 Posts
As for EWC, people who know already knows but internally, the SC2 teams and players are as of now planning under assumption as if SC2 at EWC will be happening. Solar left Team Onsyde, so it will be running as a trio, and the will last until this summer. We don't know what will happen after summer. Team Onsyde will be recruiting another player But the head of Team Onsyde is supporting the team well and will have contract until year's end. This does mean if there is no tournament, it will be 6 months of nothing, which makes it a shame about current state of things. Source: Crank on his 2/15/2025 stream: | ||
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Poopi
France12770 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
Heres to hopium we'll actually get our announcement of announcements | ||
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edwardbenny
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 21 2025 19:53 Harris1st wrote: EWC game announcements are now dated last of February. Curious to see if when that is over if it automatically dates end of March then. Heres to hopium we'll actually get our announcement of announcements I doubt that would happen. End of March is crazy. Don't forget players/teams still have to acquire visas for the tournament and that takes time. They need to know soon. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On February 27 2025 22:57 Harris1st wrote: So we reached end of February and EWC just took down all countdown timers and replaced them with "Coming soon" TM is it pitchfork time already? | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
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Zzzapper
1791 Posts
On February 27 2025 23:25 Pandain wrote: Would we have had an ESL circuit if EWC had made clear from the beginning that there was no SC2 this year? Trying to figure out if SC2 was always dead this year or if EWC really has a significant blame Considering EWC is also run by ESL, I doubt it. I think ESL need Saudi money to run a circuit and they're not getting that if SC2 isn't at EWC. On the other hand, other organizers might have run tournaments; for example SCBoy explicitly stated that WTL was cancelled because of uncertainty about EWC/EPT. Maybe they would've at least given the team league a last hurrah if it was clear that there would be no circuit. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On February 27 2025 23:43 Zzzapper wrote: Considering EWC is also run by ESL, I doubt it. I think ESL need Saudi money to run a circuit and they're not getting that if SC2 isn't at EWC. On the other hand, other organizers might have run tournaments; for example SCBoy explicitly stated that WTL was cancelled because of uncertainty about EWC/EPT. Maybe they would've at least given the team league a last hurrah if it was clear that there would be no circuit. IIRC SCBoy also said that singular orgs picking up players for the purpose of EWC points left it difficult to do a viable team league. | ||
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On February 27 2025 22:57 Harris1st wrote: So we reached end of February and EWC just took down all countdown timers and replaced them with "Coming soon" TM Yet again a reminder that this is a tournament run by the biggest and oldest TO in the history of Esports, supported by a Foundation that has the infinite money glitch. How are they so unbelievably fucking terrible at this? | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States693 Posts
On February 28 2025 06:18 Balnazza wrote: Yet again a reminder that this is a tournament run by the biggest and oldest TO in the history of Esports, supported by a Foundation that has the infinite money glitch. How are they so unbelievably fucking terrible at this? If you believe the rumors, it's not ESL or EWC holding it up. It's Blizzard. Although that doesn't explain the second game, which is supposedly Tekken. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On February 28 2025 10:29 ZombieGrub wrote: If you believe the rumors, it's not ESL or EWC holding it up. It's Blizzard. Although that doesn't explain the second game, which is supposedly Tekken. Doesn't feel particularly plausible to me tbh. Overwatch is already confirmed for EWC, so SC2 has to be the the only possible game. I atleast can't imagine they would go for WoW or Hearthstone instead (not to mention Heroes). But if it is SC2...why would Blizzard care? Especially after they already gave the Go for Overwatch, so there isn't any fundamental problem betweent the two I'm more worried that they only plan to unveil two more games, but there are still three missing from last year: SC2, Tekken and Fortnite. Though while Fortnite is probably the biggest of the three games, it is also the most redundant, with there being already three other games like it | ||
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ZombieGrub
United States693 Posts
On February 28 2025 11:01 Balnazza wrote: Doesn't feel particularly plausible to me tbh. Overwatch is already confirmed for EWC, so SC2 has to be the the only possible game. I atleast can't imagine they would go for WoW or Hearthstone instead (not to mention Heroes). But if it is SC2...why would Blizzard care? Especially after they already gave the Go for Overwatch, so there isn't any fundamental problem betweent the two I'm more worried that they only plan to unveil two more games, but there are still three missing from last year: SC2, Tekken and Fortnite. Though while Fortnite is probably the biggest of the three games, it is also the most redundant, with there being already three other games like it These are questions I ask myself, but the source for the rumor on my side is pretty credible. It matches with the WTL rumor, and a new development I was unaware of - Brood War ASL/SSL has also not gotten whatever permission they need to move forward with their tournaments. I have no idea why Blizzard would disrupt anything with StarCraft and we will probably never (publicly) know. At this point, however, I'm very much leaning to them being the issue. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On February 28 2025 14:25 ZombieGrub wrote: These are questions I ask myself, but the source for the rumor on my side is pretty credible. It matches with the WTL rumor, and a new development I was unaware of - Brood War ASL/SSL has also not gotten whatever permission they need to move forward with their tournaments. I have no idea why Blizzard would disrupt anything with StarCraft and we will probably never (publicly) know. At this point, however, I'm very much leaning to them being the issue. Wouldn't that be rather a Microsoft issue than a Blizzard issues now? Which is very strange since supposedly Microsoft wanted to bring new life to the Starcraft IP... | ||
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Kreuger
Sweden679 Posts
On February 28 2025 14:25 ZombieGrub wrote: These are questions I ask myself, but the source for the rumor on my side is pretty credible. It matches with the WTL rumor, and a new development I was unaware of - Brood War ASL/SSL has also not gotten whatever permission they need to move forward with their tournaments. I have no idea why Blizzard would disrupt anything with StarCraft and we will probably never (publicly) know. At this point, however, I'm very much leaning to them being the issue. Hasnt SSL been confirmed now? So atleast broodwar is a go | ||
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dysenterymd
1189 Posts
Even with the EWC infinite money glitch, I imagine they would do a little bit to avoid unnecessary costs. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
I clearly remember GSL in 2012, where NaNiWa played against DongRaeGu, the TL thread was exploding at over 100 pages of entries, I still remember being super hyped in a train and reading along, as I could not watch... Feel free to remove this if it's too much off topic, I was just reminiscing about a time where a dearth of information like this would have been absolutely unthinkable. I'm grateful for all the great times we've had. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3355 Posts
On March 01 2025 06:05 SharkStarcraft wrote: From a strictly TL-perspective, to all of those who've been there for a long time, which period of time did you remember where this website was the most active? As in users interacting, commenting etc. Probably in 2010-11 when SC2 and Brood War were both peaking simultaneously and we had top notch OSL, MSL, ProLeague, GSL AND MLG and other non-Korean events popping off constantly. As soon as Kespa dissolved things starting declining, to various degrees. This is the lowest SC information period in the last 25y. Looking forward to Stormgate hopefully maybe rising to the occasion if SC were to 'die'. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1400 Posts
On March 01 2025 01:08 Waxangel wrote: If ASL is actually getting blocked by Blizzard, I'd expect some kind of leak out of Korea at some point (which has been a reliable source for anti-Blizzard leaks since time immemorial). Considering Progamers leaked SSL qualifier date being delayed pretty fast on their streams accidentally while Blizzard interference only remained a rumor, you're probably right. Someone would have spilled the beans one way or another. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
On March 01 2025 06:05 SharkStarcraft wrote: Feel free to remove this if it's too much off topic, I was just reminiscing about a time where a dearth of information like this would have been absolutely unthinkable. I'm grateful for all the great times we've had. Well, regardless of activity on TL, I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say we would have had more information in the past? SC2 insiders/influencers have always been very good about going along with Blizz/organizers and not leaking anything—it's almost always been the Korean or Chinese scene that have given us meaningful leaks. It's not like back in 2011 that we were getting any info about MLG 2012 or WCS 2012 before the organizers wanted us to know. | ||
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 01 2025 15:39 LaughNgamezSOOP wrote: I'll be honest I'm getting pretty sad at the delayed announcement/disclosure. It would be great if someone could give us a bread crumb to know if it's a go or not. If it's not a go I'd like to know so I could get over significant SC2 esports ending and move onto the new era. Then at least I could stop checking that f**king page every day! I feel you. Waiting for an incoming heartbreak is the worst feeling ever | ||
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acbet
1 Post
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ios1xbet
1 Post
User was banned for this post. | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
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LaughNgamezYT
15 Posts
On March 09 2025 08:05 SharkStarcraft wrote: I'm not giving out on hope yet. I'm positive they will tell us something in March. God I hope you're right, at this point I'd be happy to post ESL announcing SC2 esports is over with a 60 second montage of past greatness | ||
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LaughNgamez
Canada523 Posts
https://x.com/CapcomFighters/status/1898668912239129084 | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 10 2025 04:37 LaughNgamez wrote: EWC just announced a 3 year deal with Street Fighter, maybe something similar for SC2 is why we have a long wait? https://x.com/CapcomFighters/status/1898668912239129084 Nah. They already announced streetfighter was at EWC before they announced this. It didn't hold them back. Also StarCraft getting a 3 year deal is pretty high hopes. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 10 2025 07:11 CicadaSC wrote: Nah. They already announced streetfighter was at EWC before they announced this. It didn't hold them back. Also StarCraft getting a 3 year deal is pretty high hopes. Especially considering we can't even get a 3 months deal for now, which an EWC announcement would essentially be at this point. | ||
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bulldozer06701
115 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 12 2025 03:00 bulldozer06701 wrote: It probably doesn't mean anything to SC2 but Blizzcon 2026 was announced. What year was the last one to feature SC? 2019 was the last one. And if I recall correctly, that was also the last one giving out SC2 content. Like I think they announced Stukov as a Co-Op Commander, with just a photo, no panel, no trailer, no nuffin | ||
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betyek1
2 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On March 13 2025 15:36 betyek1 wrote: Ah, the classic “Is EPT/GSL over?” discussion! 😆 It’s always interesting to see how things evolve year after year. While we may not have a definite answer, one thing’s for sure—competitive StarCraft always finds a way to keep us on our toes! Hopefully, we’ll get more clarity soon. For those who love esports updates, strategy guides, and gaming discussions, check out my website—I’ve got plenty of content for fellow enthusiasts! Fuck me bots are getting more niche | ||
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HsDLTitich
Italy830 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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QOGQOG
831 Posts
I thought things must be coming back with the military returnees practicing up but this doesn't seem to be the case... | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
On March 20 2025 08:39 CicadaSC wrote: at what point would u guys accept there will be no league this year? id say april is the latest i will hold out for, that is 1/3rd through the year any kind of league after that wouldnt make much sense imo though i could still see EWC happening. I already gave up on the idea of a pro-tour after they didnt announce SC2 for IEM this year. If EWC happen then it would just be a large qualifer, with Clem probably got invited. | ||
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LaughNgamez
Canada523 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 20 2025 12:03 tigera6 wrote: I already gave up on the idea of a pro-tour after they didnt announce SC2 for IEM this year. If EWC happen then it would just be a large qualifer, with Clem probably got invited. Edit removed replied to wrong comment. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 20 2025 12:14 LaughNgamez wrote: April 2nd and I give up hope, started playing AOE4 again as I miss having active devs/tournaments A lot of SC2 players have been streaming AOE now I've noticed. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 20 2025 12:14 LaughNgamez wrote: April 2nd and I give up hope, started playing AOE4 again as I miss having active devs/tournaments If there isn't something happening soon with Starcraft or the RTS scene in general, I'm done with RTS. Can't watch or play AoE cause I find it utterly boring. Stormgate/ Zerospace and whatever seem all very far away if ever happening. I'm still waiting for the two TBA games in EWC though | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
On March 20 2025 13:11 Balnazza wrote: EWC is currently announcing the different tournament setups and systems, so honestly, if we don't get any kind of announcement until that is done, it is pretty much over. Did anything come out of this? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
They do it over multiple days without any clear schedule, so hard to tell. But if all 17(?) systems are announced, I would assume it is done | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
On March 20 2025 12:03 tigera6 wrote: I already gave up on the idea of a pro-tour after they didnt announce SC2 for IEM this year. If EWC happen then it would just be a large qualifer, with Clem probably got invited. I said long ago that the professional SC2 is dead and people disagreed with me. At this point, even if a pro circuit is announced, the amount of players playing in it is going to be pretty small and the skill level will have decreased sharply compared to years past. Accept that the scene is dead and move on. | ||
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Ch3rry
Poland219 Posts
https://esportsworldcup.com/en/news/ewcf-club-partner-program-2025 With this year’s focus on high-growth regions, the 2025 EWCF Club Partner Program represents a truly global roster, including six Clubs from China, alongside additions from rapidly expanding markets like Japan, India, and LATAM. The full lineup of Clubs, in alphabetic order: 100 Thieves, All Gamers, Bilibili Gaming, Cloud9, Edward Gaming, EVOS, FaZe Clan, Fnatic, FURIA, G2 Esports, Gaimin Gladiators, Gen.G, Gentle Mates, HEROIC, JD Gaming, Karmine Corp., Movistar KOI, LEVIATAN, LOUD, MOUZ, NAVI, NIP.eStar, ONIC, POWR, REJECT, S8UL, Sentinels, T1, Team BDS, Team Falcons, Team Liquid, Team RRQ, Team Secret, Team Spirit, Team Vitality, Twisted Minds, Virtus.pro, Weibo Gaming, Wolves Esports, ZETA DIVISION. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 20 2025 22:51 geokilla wrote: I said long ago that the professional SC2 is dead and people disagreed with me. At this point, even if a pro circuit is announced, the amount of players playing in it is going to be pretty small and the skill level will have decreased sharply compared to years past. Accept that the scene is dead and move on. "Move on" he said, still being here? On March 20 2025 23:12 Ch3rry wrote: Team Liquid partnered with 2025 EWFC Club Partner Program. Can't you share any insider info? https://esportsworldcup.com/en/news/ewcf-club-partner-program-2025 With this year’s focus on high-growth regions, the 2025 EWCF Club Partner Program represents a truly global roster, including six Clubs from China, alongside additions from rapidly expanding markets like Japan, India, and LATAM. The full lineup of Clubs, in alphabetic order: 100 Thieves, All Gamers, Bilibili Gaming, Cloud9, Edward Gaming, EVOS, FaZe Clan, Fnatic, FURIA, G2 Esports, Gaimin Gladiators, Gen.G, Gentle Mates, HEROIC, JD Gaming, Karmine Corp., Movistar KOI, LEVIATAN, LOUD, MOUZ, NAVI, NIP.eStar, ONIC, POWR, REJECT, S8UL, Sentinels, T1, Team BDS, Team Falcons, Team Liquid, Team RRQ, Team Secret, Team Spirit, Team Vitality, Twisted Minds, Virtus.pro, Weibo Gaming, Wolves Esports, ZETA DIVISION. The Partner Program is not necessarily connected to the World Cup. And even if TL-HigherUps knew something, leaking informations right after you get introduced in such a program would be an awfully terrible idea | ||
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Ch3rry
Poland219 Posts
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
On March 21 2025 01:48 Ch3rry wrote: Just now I noticed Tekken 8 added. Not sure if was announced before and they changed order or not. However on EWC homepage only one slot left with "Coming soon" label. Man, it would be singularly unsatisfactory if SC2's run as one of the large esport disciplines ended silently by just not being included in EWC without any announcement or farewell at all. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16648 Posts
On March 21 2025 02:50 Antithesis wrote: Man, it would be singularly unsatisfactory if SC2's run as one of the large esport disciplines ended silently by just not being included in EWC without any announcement or farewell at all. That ending is congruent with the sometimes criminal, ruthless, amoral, exponential profit growth centric industry within which SC2 resides. Every week great passion projects built by under a dozen dedicated lifers get sold off to hedge fund managers run by Casualty Actuaries. In 1976, Warner Communications bought Atari. Look what happened. Atari did everything possible to wreck the lives of Bob Whitehead, David Crane, Larry Miller and Rob Fulop... the industry's greatest creators. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On March 21 2025 05:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote: That ending is congruent with the sometimes criminal, ruthless, amoral, exponential profit growth centric industry within which SC2 resides. Every week great passion projects built by under a dozen dedicated lifers get sold off to hedge fund managers run by Casualty Actuaries. In 1976, Warner Communications bought Atari. Look what happened. Atari did everything possible to wreck the lives of Bob Whitehead, David Crane, Larry Miller and Rob Fulop... the industry's greatest creators. I find this hard to reconcile with your frequent hero worship of Bobby Kotick | ||
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LaughNgamez
Canada523 Posts
On March 20 2025 22:51 geokilla wrote: I said long ago that the professional SC2 is dead and people disagreed with me. At this point, even if a pro circuit is announced, the amount of players playing in it is going to be pretty small and the skill level will have decreased sharply compared to years past. Accept that the scene is dead and move on. Ah yes the unique take of SC2 being dead. No one has ever predicted the demise of SC2 in the past 13 years and been wrong. If it's dead and not worth the bother do us a favour and stop commenting on SC threads. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 21 2025 01:48 Ch3rry wrote: Just now I noticed Tekken 8 added. Not sure if was announced before and they changed order or not. However on EWC homepage only one slot left with "Coming soon" label. oh yes, tekken 8 was just added so that means only one game left... | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 21 2025 10:40 CicadaSC wrote: oh yes, tekken 8 was just added so that means only one game left... One game left and two games from last year still not in the lineup: SC2 and Fortnite. If it is either of these games, you certainly could make an argument for both: Fortnite clearly is the "bigger" game, having a particularly strong pull with the youth. On the other hand, since EWC tries to emulate the magic of ESWC/WCG of old, with "all kind of games" coming together, it seems like a big oversight to not have any RTS in the lineup. Considering there are three(?) Battle Royales in the lineups that all have bigger Esports-scenes than Fortnite, it really seems redundant to pick it. That being said...who the F knows how the EWCF decides what games to pick. Maybe the last game will be Quake just to be edgy... | ||
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geokilla
Canada8229 Posts
I still have this site as my browser home page. I don't know what to change it to tbh. Don't want to use Reddit or YouTube or anything like that.... | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
Aren't we all kinda lying to ourselves? It's that glimmer of hope that just won't die | ||
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okkingliving
1 Post
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 21 2025 16:32 CicadaSC wrote: Looking at some general Esports comments and it seems a lot of people are expecting the last game could be Marvel Rivals, and honestly, given the ecosystem right now, I think it makes the most sense... Rivals has a lot of traction right now on Steam, Twitch and Reddit. Haven't really played myself but from what I gathered on the Interwebs it is a rather unbalanced, casual game good for memeing rather than a hardcore E-Sports game? | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 21 2025 21:36 SharkStarcraft wrote: When is the final game being announced? Roughly six to ten weeks ago I think? xD They are hilariously behind schedule and at some point just removed any indicator when the last few games will be announced | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
On March 21 2025 21:55 Balnazza wrote: Roughly six to ten weeks ago I think? xD They are hilariously behind schedule and at some point just removed any indicator when the last few games will be announced ...sounds fantastic and highly professional! Thanks for the answer. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 24 2025 08:42 CicadaSC wrote: At this point if there is a ESL/EWC I will not be watching... I can not support this behavior. If you're working on something say you're working on something. If you're done say you're done. ESL is owned by Saudi Arabia and so is EWC. Run by clowns is more accurate though who do not care about the game or players. It's okay. I'll be watching with two screens to compensate for you | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Captain Peabody
United States3097 Posts
On March 24 2025 19:06 CicadaSC wrote: sc2 was just mentioned by afreeca ceo in asl intro What did he say? | ||
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Zergxhx
China144 Posts
Nothing | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 26 2025 07:47 CicadaSC wrote: Omg we are about to go into April. Spring is coming and we still not heard anything. I think it was a silent passing. Let's mourn together and find a date we can make it official. They are already going into ticket sale and are announcing the schedule bit by bit. Should be pretty obvious by now, but I guess the "official" end date will be when the entire schedule is released. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1809 Posts
On March 26 2025 07:47 CicadaSC wrote: Omg we are about to go into April. Spring is coming and we still not heard anything. I think it was a silent passing. Let's mourn together and find a date we can make it official. I got an article ready and on the way :DDDD | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On March 24 2025 17:10 Harris1st wrote: It's okay. I'll be watching with two screens to compensate for you Please don’t do that lol, one screen shall suffice | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 26 2025 07:50 Balnazza wrote: They are already going into ticket sale and are announcing the schedule bit by bit. Should be pretty obvious by now, but I guess the "official" end date will be when the entire schedule is released. When the last announcement is done and the full schedule is out. Not a second before! Remember, as long as the cat is in the box we don't know if it's dead or alive. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 26 2025 07:51 Mizenhauer wrote: I got an article ready and on the way :DDDD For your sake I hope Serral is mentioned as GOAT in there! :D | ||
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rwala
274 Posts
On March 26 2025 19:01 Harris1st wrote: For your sake I hope Serral is mentioned as GOAT in there! :D No it should be an opportunity to say it was MVP on third thought. Nothing like reviving the endless GOAT debate to keep the community alive. | ||
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dysenterymd
1189 Posts
On March 27 2025 08:37 rwala wrote: No it should be an opportunity to say it was MVP on third thought. Nothing like reviving the endless GOAT debate to keep the community alive. Only to set up an article that says the GOAT was Inno on fourth thought because something something 2013-2017 was most competitive SC2. Then in a few months Maru can be goat again, and on and on until SC3 is announced. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 27 2025 09:03 dysenterymd wrote: Only to set up an article that says the GOAT was Inno on fourth thought because something something 2013-2017 was most competitive SC2. Then in a few months Maru can be goat again, and on and on until SC3 is announced. He's kind of right though... I think that is a very fair point to make that the most competitive era is weighted the most. Everyone thought drg nesta MVP etc were untouchable until kespa switched over to SC2 and within a year GSL was almost entirely kespa only no etf. That's like people think Serral/Clem are untouchable now. Yeah they look untouchable because the competitive field is not as intense. | ||
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johnnyh123
91 Posts
Now it just has a "Coming Soon", like we are fewer than 100 days away from the event start date. Players will need to get in a team, practice, book accommodation, etc. At this point, I suppose SC2 will just die a silent death. Unfortunate for one of the eSports games that brought eSports to where it is now (admittedly, a lot has to do with SC and its reputation) | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
F. | ||
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LaughNgamezSOOP
52 Posts
Blizzard is throwing away SC2 an esport with a massive legacy. All they’d need to do is make the odd tweet, have biannual balance patches, and maybe support the odd tournament to keep the brand alive which is worth a good chunk of money. If SC2 esports goes down the toilet I’m going to have a hard time buying their inevitable Hell Divers clone | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3097 Posts
Even if they do finally announce something, I am not going to be happy. Take note. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 28 2025 19:33 tigera6 wrote: Imagine canceling WTL for this, and with Oliveira retirement, I dont expect the Chinese community to support SC2 that strong anymore. why was WTL cancelled? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
WTL got canceled (atleast according to the announcement) because of the uncertainty the EWC provided concerning teams. The situation of last year, with a lot of players being signed by orgs for the EWC and then having to be awkwardly partnered back into the system apparently was against their vision of a teamleague. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 29 2025 04:28 Balnazza wrote: WTL got canceled (atleast according to the announcement) because of the uncertainty the EWC provided concerning teams. The situation of last year, with a lot of players being signed by orgs for the EWC and then having to be awkwardly partnered back into the system apparently was against their vision of a teamleague. Hmm... Maybe they figured no one would get signed to a team without EWC? | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
sc2Solar: Not yet sc2Solar: When it happens sc2Solar: It takes more than 2 weeks? SHIN 신희범: I had a talk with EWC SHIN 신희범: They said it'll take about 2 weeks no additional context was provided. comments were from ryungs streams chatroom. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On March 29 2025 09:29 CicadaSC wrote: Hmm... Maybe they figured no one would get signed to a team without EWC? I think you kinda need teams for a team league, and the organisers seemed to agree with this sentiment. If half the league ends up with their ace players signed to EWC deals, and those players recirculate through ad hoc partnership deals, it starts to really lose that team league vibe. I don’t think this was intentional, I can see the logic of incentivising orgs to compete across multiple titles. But I also imagine it’s harmed other scenes as well. I don’t follow other games so perhaps not! But I assume some smaller scenes have this same issue where their orgs operating in their spaces can’t compete with some of the bigger multi-game ones who might want a player in x game to boost their league finish. I like the idea, but I think it was implemented poorly and there’s an easy enough fix. You can only get points from pickups if you had presence in a game in a time preceding an edition of EWC, or a pickup is made sufficiently far out. So say, Cloud 9 wouldn’t get points for having Gumi last time round, but they can this time as they’ve retained him for a period, or whatever. I think you want to incentivise supporting multiple games, but the way the system works currently you’re not really developing game scenes and talent and incentivising short-term mercenary pickups. You could probably make an exception for something like chess this time around which wasn’t really in the wheelhouse of eSports orgs before, so it’s almost a day zero scenario. | ||
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Antithesis
Germany1124 Posts
On March 29 2025 19:59 CicadaSC wrote: not sure if anyone saw but there is a leak on reddit going around right now between solar and shin that they had a private discussion and EWC will be announced in 2 weeks, allegedly. sc2Solar: Not yet sc2Solar: When it happens sc2Solar: It takes more than 2 weeks? SHIN 신희범: I had a talk with EWC SHIN 신희범: They said it'll take about 2 weeks no additional context was provided. comments were from ryungs streams chatroom. Hell yeah, the most interesting news about the future of SC2 originating from a leaked private chat between two players without context, that's the spirit of the situation. In all seriousness, I still mildly expect SC2 to be at EWC, however, at this point I am mostly interested in exactly what sort of difficulties and negotiations have taken place between what parties. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 30 2025 02:43 Antithesis wrote: Hell yeah, the most interesting news about the future of SC2 originating from a leaked private chat between two players without context, that's the spirit of the situation. In all seriousness, I still mildly expect SC2 to be at EWC, however, at this point I am mostly interested in exactly what sort of difficulties and negotiations have taken place between what parties. I do kinda expect a invite only legacy tournament at this point. Like say, 8 players (4 KR, 4 Other). It is almost to late to make some big qualifier and then have the qualified get visas, flights and accommodations and such. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On March 31 2025 16:16 Harris1st wrote: I do kinda expect a invite only legacy tournament at this point. Like say, 8 players (4 KR, 4 Other). It is almost to late to make some big qualifier and then have the qualified get visas, flights and accommodations and such. nahh, that would defeat the whole point of EWC and club points etc. you have to only have the best players there via qualifier not invite or it wouldnt make sense. | ||
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toinewx
51 Posts
I don't know why you guys focus so much on the EWC. GSL was the main tournament of SC2 and it died silently. I think the end of the GSL is a much bigger deal. EWC does not matter, you may have EWC this year if you are lucky, but with no GSL or other circuit in sight, this would be the last anyway. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On March 31 2025 16:47 CicadaSC wrote: nahh, that would defeat the whole point of EWC and club points etc. you have to only have the best players there via qualifier not invite or it wouldnt make sense. I think you missunderstood me there. I expect Starcraft not to be part of the whole EWC / Club Point system but as a showmatch/ legacy tournament kinda thing. As the father/ mother of Esports. Why go through all the trouble and money of qualifiers and stuff if there are barely 50 competitive players and no pro scene left. On March 31 2025 17:16 toinewx wrote: I made this thread initially about the GSL. I don't know why you guys focus so much on the EWC. GSL was the main tournament of SC2 and it died silently. I think the end of the GSL is a much bigger deal. EWC does not matter, you may have EWC this year if you are lucky, but with no GSL or other circuit in sight, this would be the last anyway. That is an interesting opinion. In my opinion and I daresay the opinion of many others, Blizzcon and IEM were way way way more important. At least since 2018, probably longer. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On March 31 2025 20:27 Harris1st wrote: I think you missunderstood me there. I expect Starcraft not to be part of the whole EWC / Club Point system but as a showmatch/ legacy tournament kinda thing. As the father/ mother of Esports. Why go through all the trouble and money of qualifiers and stuff if there are barely 50 competitive players and no pro scene left. That is an interesting opinion. In my opinion and I daresay the opinion of many others, Blizzcon and IEM were way way way more important. At least since 2018, probably longer. For me they get extra importance from being a cherry atop the cake for sure, but if the cake ain’t there I’m far less invested. | ||
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dysenterymd
1189 Posts
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
Pig's recent tournament was great because the players had time to prepare, but the lag in Europe vs. Korea games is problematic because there is a disadvantage for players, like ByuN, that rely on their micro. I am watching it and just started with the “Playoffs Day 1”. Please don't spoiler the results. Personally I enjoyed GSL the most. Closely followed by Serral vs. Reynor ZvZ. These matches were fantastic. Most weekend tournaments blurred in my memory, but I remember a lot of the GSL. I dream that someone makes one final GSL tournaments with the best players outside of Korea going to Korea for six weeks and Artosis comes to visit and commentate. Obviously the last pro tournament will have a masked MaxPax honoring JangBi by winning with carriers. | ||
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Blitzball04
180 Posts
Also the prize pool for last couple of prize pool for GSL was pitiful. | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
On April 01 2025 01:23 Blitzball04 wrote: We don’t need the GSL. It was dead for the last couple of years when it could barely find enough ppl to participate Also the prize pool for last couple of prize pool for GSL was pitiful. Yes, the last GSLs weren't as good. But with foreign players top tier players competing for six weeks it could be a fantastic tournament and a goodbye to SC2 pro tournaments. The silence is annoying, but the EWC is essentially a weekend tournament with fewer tactics tailored to the opponent. We can still have the Homestory cup and other events, but it's a new era. I expect the pro scene becoming smaller and many players retiring. State is a fantastic commentator. Artosis didn't seem to enjoy casting SC2 anymore. If I could choose the commentators Lambo and State would be casting, Artosis and Tasteless would have a desk and would be on camera during the breaks. | ||
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Scarlett`
Canada2380 Posts
On March 31 2025 17:16 toinewx wrote: I made this thread initially about the GSL. I don't know why you guys focus so much on the EWC. GSL was the main tournament of SC2 and it died silently. I think the end of the GSL is a much bigger deal. EWC does not matter, you may have EWC this year if you are lucky, but with no GSL or other circuit in sight, this would be the last anyway. if EWC happens theres almost definitely some form of circuit as well which is why people are focusing on it | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On March 31 2025 17:16 toinewx wrote: I made this thread initially about the GSL. I don't know why you guys focus so much on the EWC. GSL was the main tournament of SC2 and it died silently. I think the end of the GSL is a much bigger deal. EWC does not matter, you may have EWC this year if you are lucky, but with no GSL or other circuit in sight, this would be the last anyway. EPT/EWC was literally the only thing keeping the GSL running for years. Without the ESL Masters at the end, GSL was already kind of pointless and not worth it, financially it even was the weakest of the four regional qualifiers I believe. If we would get an EWC every year without a circuit the scene would still be pretty okay. No EWC but GSL instead however would be tremendously pointless. But to answer your question: Yes, GSL died quietly and even if there was some kind of announcement, it wouldn't be in English, because Afreeca/SOOP couldn't bother to thank the people who kept the lights on for GSL in the last two years | ||
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tigera6
3263 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On April 01 2025 19:12 tigera6 wrote: I mean, GSL didnt really depend on ESL money to survive and still had great prizepool, because they had a different deal with Blizzard earlier? ESL just use GSL result and make them the de-facto “KR regional” instead of putting in money themselves. The moment the deal for GSL ran out, it just stopped being meaningful and ESL didnt do anything to help it. Aside from the sportswashing angle, the combination of the two show match series at Gamers8 having bigger prize pots than GSL, and GSL getting no subsequent help was really a sign that the writing was on the wall there. One thing I would like to know is what’s stopping them trying to crowdfund another season? I think there’s an appetite there, especially if it was funding the last GSL, or last couple. I’d love to know, there’s a lot of speculation because very little concrete is being communicated to fans. Is it Blizzard licensing issues? Is it everyone waiting for EWC, or something else? I mean Bellum Stargoza [sic] is due to run again this summer, we had an HSC not all that long ago so seemingly you can organise at least some kind of tournament with a certain prize pool. Add a GSL or two, a Euro tourney, an international event and you’re already getting towards a decent tournament cadence, albeit downsized. Frustrating enough as a fan, god knows how it is for stakeholders like progamers and orgs | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6841 Posts
On April 01 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote: Aside from the sportswashing angle, the combination of the two show match series at Gamers8 having bigger prize pots than GSL, and GSL getting no subsequent help was really a sign that the writing was on the wall there. One thing I would like to know is what’s stopping them trying to crowdfund another season? I think there’s an appetite there, especially if it was funding the last GSL, or last couple. I’d love to know, there’s a lot of speculation because very little concrete is being communicated to fans. Is it Blizzard licensing issues? Is it everyone waiting for EWC, or something else? I mean Bellum Stargoza [sic] is due to run again this summer, we had an HSC not all that long ago so seemingly you can organise at least some kind of tournament with a certain prize pool. Add a GSL or two, a Euro tourney, an international event and you’re already getting towards a decent tournament cadence, albeit downsized. Frustrating enough as a fan, god knows how it is for stakeholders like progamers and orgs HomestoryCup and PiG-Fest had no trouble at all raising 20k+ over a span of only a couple days. Add to that generell streaming revenue, subs and other donations it might well be worth it. EDIT: Add maybe a decent sponsor or two like TL.net, Shopify or some gaming gear producer to that as well | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
On April 01 2025 22:01 Harris1st wrote: HomestoryCup and PiG-Fest had no trouble at all raising 20k+ over a span of only a couple days. Add to that generell streaming revenue, subs and other donations it might well be worth it Indeed, hence the confusion on my end! | ||
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Radioteddy
7 Posts
https://pro.eslgaming.com/tour/sc2/ | ||
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Waxangel
United States33277 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3416 Posts
It's been an amazing run though and the grassroots scene can and will continue for years to come. I am and will be forever thankful for what was essentially 25+ years of SC esports in my life; About 20 years more than I ever imagined possible back when I started playing this beautiful gem of game. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
I'm now though wondering if the tremendous delay was perhaps connected with ESL negotiations with Intel? As far as I know, Intel and ESL recently negotiated a new multi-year contract, but Intel apparently considerably scaled down (because of their own problems). For example, the "Grand Slam" in Counterstrike will no longer be sponsored by and named after Intel. Anyway...glad we got clarity, even though a Circuit would probably be more healthy for the scene than the World Cup, but money for our boys is money! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
That’s me kinda done now, outside of what the grass roots can pull out of the bag, been a hell of a ride though! I’m sure plenty will be happy to gargle EWC balls to compensate for my absence | ||
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0Amorphis0
1 Post
Are we just gonna get one more year of SC2 in EWC, or muitiple years? If it is just one year, will it be the last? How will the qualification for EWC work this year? How may players will be playing in this EWC? All players through qualifiers or we have some invites based on past results? What will the qualifiers for the EWC look like? Are they gonna be all online? Or there gonna be any offline tournament that lead to qualifications to EWC? | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On April 05 2025 02:44 0Amorphis0 wrote: Still we need more clarity about the situation, now that EPT is gone: Are we just gonna get one more year of SC2 in EWC, or muitiple years? If it is just one year, will it be the last? How will the qualification for EWC work this year? How may players will be playing in this EWC? All players through qualifiers or we have some invites based on past results? What will the qualifiers for the EWC look like? Are they gonna be all online? Or there gonna be any offline tournament that lead to qualifications to EWC? Brave of you the Saudis know what next year will look like when they didn't finish this-years rooster until three months before the tournament... I would also heavily assume that qualification will be invite-based and the rest will be online qualifiers. Without ESL, no one is there to make any kind of offline tournaments that could function as qualifiers | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2201 Posts
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote: Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. welp... awkward... | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
https://imgur.com/a/dWMadUG | ||
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LaughNgamezYT
15 Posts
On April 05 2025 03:13 CicadaSC wrote: As unfortunate as it is, I think more players may be willing to give Stormgate a try as Frost Giant, at least in previous notions, want to make an esports scene work. Stormgate shills are amazing, the game isn't going to take off. SC2 pros would be way better off going to AOE IMO | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On April 05 2025 03:31 LaughNgamezYT wrote: Stormgate shills are amazing, the game isn't going to take off. SC2 pros would be way better off going to AOE IMO ehh, a new game where everyone starts on the same footing vs a game with years of knowledge and established players is a bit different. And I don't think I am a shill. In stormgates current state of course I dont suspect this to be the case. I'm just hoping 1.0 is a fantastic launch and is fun to play. If lots of people play it, and we already know frost giant wants to do esports, why cant it be a natural transition for SC2 pros? | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On April 05 2025 03:38 CicadaSC wrote: I would love if Rotterdam, Wardi, or any other big community member could say "hey guys! I know it sucks ESL is not doing another pro circuit but I want SC2 esports to continue, and im sure a lot of you guys want it to as well. Here is a patreon where 100% of the funding will go into a year-long circuit." and the community could rally behind that as being the main league. I think a lot of people would contribute. Of course, it is a lot to ask for and a lot of responsibility on their shoulders, and a lot of people have families and other commitments but I really think one centralized place where people could donate to and fund tournaments would be much better than 15 different commentators trying to fund their own tournies. I hope we can get it centralized again somehow. I know Totalbiscuit would have tried. Miss that guy. From experience with other games: You can't donate for a "year-long circuit". It is too vague, you need too much money, the fluctuation is too high and the community does not have an "immediate" payoff. Not to mention someone actually would have to keep all that money in the bank for a year, which might bring in some tax problems aswell. The way PiG does it seems much better: Just collect donations for one tournament, even capping the prizepool of the tournament (giving over any excess donations to the next). That way, everyone knows exactly what they are donating for and get an immediate "payout". What could be done is something like the "Warcraft Pro League" (see here). Tournaments of different hosts get connected by a point-system and in the end there are "Finals", but the donations for the finals are only done later on. | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On April 05 2025 03:54 Balnazza wrote: From experience with other games: You can't donate for a "year-long circuit". It is too vague, you need too much money, the fluctuation is too high and the community does not have an "immediate" payoff. Not to mention someone actually would have to keep all that money in the bank for a year, which might bring in some tax problems aswell. The way PiG does it seems much better: Just collect donations for one tournament, even capping the prizepool of the tournament (giving over any excess donations to the next). That way, everyone knows exactly what they are donating for and get an immediate "payout". What could be done is something like the "Warcraft Pro League" (see here). Tournaments of different hosts get connected by a point-system and in the end there are "Finals", but the donations for the finals are only done later on. Ehh, GSL does it where u are essentially donating to one tournament after another. Their patreon is rolling and still running despite there not being a tournament for a while. I think their system would be great with a little more communication and instead you just turn it into a global online league (or whatever the tournament organizer envisions). In fact, I like that idea so much I think SOOP should be the ones to do this lol. Announce it at the next GSL you will have a cap ($20k or whatever per GSL) and any further donations exceeding that go towards running a global online tournament. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1114 Posts
On April 05 2025 04:03 CicadaSC wrote: Ehh, GSL does it where u are essentially donating to one tournament after another. Their patreon is rolling and still running despite there not being a tournament for a while. I think their system would be great with a little more communication and instead you just turn it into a global online league (or whatever the tournament organizer envisions). In fact, I like that idea so much I think SOOP should be the ones to do this lol. Announce it at the next GSL you will have a cap ($20k or whatever per GSL) and any further donations exceeding that go towards running a global online tournament. Yes, but you donate for the next tournament. Not for an entire year. There is a difference. Also, no offense, but SOOP would be the worst company to give SC2 into. They clearly do not care about the game at all. Combined with the fact that they also absolutely do not care about their international viewership (them being a korea-only company whos streaming service sucks major ass compared to Twitch or Youtube btw...) they have absolutely no business running anything SC2-related that isn't GSL...and quite honestly, they can't even do that right... | ||
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CicadaSC
United States1499 Posts
On April 05 2025 04:42 Balnazza wrote: Yes, but you donate for the next tournament. Not for an entire year. There is a difference. Also, no offense, but SOOP would be the worst company to give SC2 into. They clearly do not care about the game at all. Combined with the fact that they also absolutely do not care about their international viewership (them being a korea-only company whos streaming service sucks major ass compared to Twitch or Youtube btw...) they have absolutely no business running anything SC2-related that isn't GSL...and quite honestly, they can't even do that right... SOOP exclusively as a platform does suck when everything is on twitch or YouTube but I mean, I would put up with it if it meant more SC2. | ||
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