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On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc.
Thanks for the insights. Great work at EWC.
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Northern Ireland25099 Posts
On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc.
Agreed, and I don’t find early signs especially promising. But we’ll see
The appeal of a global circuit, only speaking for myself really drops off without a Korean backbone to it. Or, at least the players we have now playing the SC they’re capable of.
Until the GSL question gets some answers it feels very up in the air. As is it doesn’t feel particularly financially viable to be a Korean progamer if you’re not absolutely elite at present.
As of now, it’s hardcore fans attempting to plug those funding gaps for quite sometime now, without confirmation of future seasons at present.
If ESL and its new paymasters want some goodwill, as well as a compelling circuit spectacle, there’s one pretty obvious place to fund sitting right in front of us.
Going back to the signs not being especially promising, Gamers 8’s SC2 show matches had a prize pool either in the ballpark, if not more than a GSL season. Katowice with all its storied history was framed as just another SC2 tournament feeding into the EWC. I think some of the format decisions were pretty disastrous and not aligned particularly well with what long-term fans expect and enjoy.
Which to some degree I think points to more of a ‘here’s our big giant tournament’ model, rather than building something more sustainable. But, as I’ve said we shall see.
Big, giant tournaments do not on their own sustain a scene. We’ve seen this play out in many a game.
If the wider context isn’t healthy, all you’re gonna see is Korea’s best bleed out, Serral/Clem/Reynor cleaning house for a year or two given their age profile, and the lack of obvious short-term challengers coming through.
That’s just not super compelling to me versus alternatives where Korea’s top dogs are still suitably incentivised, and that maybe lasts long enough so you see some new talent rising up too
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Canada8989 Posts
On August 24 2024 00:56 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Agreed, and I don’t find early signs especially promising. But we’ll see The appeal of a global circuit, only speaking for myself really drops off without a Korean backbone to it. Or, at least the players we have now playing the SC they’re capable of. Until the GSL question gets some answers it feels very up in the air. As is it doesn’t feel particularly financially viable to be a Korean progamer if you’re not absolutely elite at present. As of now, it’s hardcore fans attempting to plug those funding gaps for quite sometime now, without confirmation of future seasons at present. If ESL and its new paymasters want some goodwill, as well as a compelling circuit spectacle, there’s one pretty obvious place to fund sitting right in front of us. Going back to the signs not being especially promising, Gamers 8’s SC2 show matches had a prize pool either in the ballpark, if not more than a GSL season. Katowice with all its storied history was framed as just another SC2 tournament feeding into the EWC. I think some of the format decisions were pretty disastrous and not aligned particularly well with what long-term fans expect and enjoy. Which to some degree I think points to more of a ‘here’s our big giant tournament’ model, rather than building something more sustainable. But, as I’ve said we shall see. Big, giant tournaments do not on their own sustain a scene. We’ve seen this play out in many a game. If the wider context isn’t healthy, all you’re gonna see is Korea’s best bleed out, Serral/Clem/Reynor cleaning house for a year or two given their age profile, and the lack of obvious short-term challengers coming through. That’s just not super compelling to me versus alternatives where Korea’s top dogs are still suitably incentivised, and that maybe lasts long enough so you see some new talent rising up too
As far as ESWC is concern, I know I'm in the minority, but even trying to put asside my personal problems with the whole ESWC thing, I'm not sure the mega-tournament set up without a circuit is much better for the scene than no mega-tournament and no-circuit.
It's gonna be so hard to get the best players engaged and motivated in smaller community based stuff all year long playing for a few hundreds bucks or less when there is a tournament with hundreds of thousands in prize pool once a year. At the same time, the number of players able to sustain themselves full time that aren't already independant of fortune would be close to none, so it's not like there's a lot chance anyone catches on to Serral, Clem, Maru, Reynor, Oliveira, etc...
I fear that everything will be under the shadow of ESWC all year long and it will be hard to really get excited for the other tournaments since the players winning them will just see them as practice for ESWC
I'd prefer having no big circuit at all and reorganise the scene around some smaller stuff. That way it would be easier to get into the day to day tournaments, even if it mean we have no one dedicated full time to the game, maybe it would be time we take that step. There's no shame transitioning from a profesional scene to an amateur scene.
Obviously not great for top professional and the people who make a living from ESWC like casters. Altought I don't really pitty the top pro, the last few years have been fairly lucrative for them.
(Off course, just my own opinion and not some kind of TL.net position)
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Northern Ireland25099 Posts
On August 24 2024 03:30 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2024 00:56 WombaT wrote:On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Agreed, and I don’t find early signs especially promising. But we’ll see The appeal of a global circuit, only speaking for myself really drops off without a Korean backbone to it. Or, at least the players we have now playing the SC they’re capable of. Until the GSL question gets some answers it feels very up in the air. As is it doesn’t feel particularly financially viable to be a Korean progamer if you’re not absolutely elite at present. As of now, it’s hardcore fans attempting to plug those funding gaps for quite sometime now, without confirmation of future seasons at present. If ESL and its new paymasters want some goodwill, as well as a compelling circuit spectacle, there’s one pretty obvious place to fund sitting right in front of us. Going back to the signs not being especially promising, Gamers 8’s SC2 show matches had a prize pool either in the ballpark, if not more than a GSL season. Katowice with all its storied history was framed as just another SC2 tournament feeding into the EWC. I think some of the format decisions were pretty disastrous and not aligned particularly well with what long-term fans expect and enjoy. Which to some degree I think points to more of a ‘here’s our big giant tournament’ model, rather than building something more sustainable. But, as I’ve said we shall see. Big, giant tournaments do not on their own sustain a scene. We’ve seen this play out in many a game. If the wider context isn’t healthy, all you’re gonna see is Korea’s best bleed out, Serral/Clem/Reynor cleaning house for a year or two given their age profile, and the lack of obvious short-term challengers coming through. That’s just not super compelling to me versus alternatives where Korea’s top dogs are still suitably incentivised, and that maybe lasts long enough so you see some new talent rising up too As far as ESWC is concern, I know I'm in the minority, but even trying to put asside my personal problems with the whole ESWC thing, I'm not sure the mega-tournament set up without a circuit is much better for the scene than no mega-tournament and no-circuit. It's gonna be so hard to get the best players engaged and motivated in smaller community based stuff all year long playing for a few hundreds bucks or less when there is a tournament with hundreds of thousands in prize pool once a year. At the same time, the number of players able to sustain themselves full time that aren't already independant of fortune would be close to none, so it's not like there's a lot chance anyone catches on to Serral, Clem, Maru, Reynor, Oliveira, etc... I fear that everything will be under the shadow of ESWC all year long and it will be hard to really get excited for the other tournaments since the players winning them will just see them as practice for ESWC I'd prefer having no big circuit at all and reorganise the scene around some smaller stuff. That way it would be easier to get into the day to day tournaments, even if it mean we have no one dedicated full time to the game, maybe it would be time we take that step. There's no shame transitioning from a profesional scene to an amateur scene. Obviously not great for top professional and the people who make a living from ESWC like casters. Altought I don't really pitty the top pro, the last few years have been fairly lucrative for them. (Off course, just my own opinion and not some kind of TL.net position)
Thank you for the official stance of TL sir! Basically agree with everything you TL say here.
Hey WC3 isn’t what it once was, but there’s at least some money floating around that there’s pretty damn regular content that’s worth watching.
Any healthy scene needs graduations, needs tiers or it just doesn’t work. It’s part of the reason I feel region lock delivered some scary Euro talent. Although I think one can have a conversation of how that coincided with a lack of support for the Korean scene. But it added an extra tier of viability for this activity as a career, you could still be a progamer with top tier aspirations, but until you get to the very top table still make non-trivial money in being merely the best in Europe, NA, China or South American.
If you have few crumbs year-long, and one mega-tournament well, if you’re some 16/17 year old monster talent, you effectively have to beat the best out of the gate, or not make any money as a progamer. Can you get better, or at least on a similar level to Serral, Maru, Clem etc in a year? If you can’t, in a hypothetical top-heavy year, well your prospects as a pro gamer are pretty bleak.
Regular weekend tournies, the ESL circuit, even weeklies are absolutely crucial ‘next steps’ for promising players. I think the weeklies especially are great for this. Top players don’t take it super seriously, but you can still test yourself against them, earn a bit of cash and continue improving
If there’s a popular competitive pursuit that doesn’t have a pyramid of many steps of relative ability, and requires you to be either remain a talented amateur or immediately jump to being a top 10/15 in the world pro I’ve yet to encounter it.
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United States33360 Posts
Here's a non-announcement for everyone to get excited/sad about
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I don't think they'd say they'd have more details to share if they weren't planning something.
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On August 29 2024 21:24 MJG wrote:I don't think they'd say they'd have more details to share if they weren't planning something.
For optimists.. just consider the intrigue of these questions part of a new unknown mystery plot line extension of the campaign story.
Kinda along the lines of "where did the zerg originate?"
"Where Is The GSL?"
<<Foreboding Hushed Mysterious Voice With English Accent>>: " No One Knows ".
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United States33360 Posts
teasing but not announcing details makes me wonder what further stripping down we're gonna see. I gotta think it's gonna continue the downsizing trend we've seen each cycle
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There will probably be some more downsizing. Or if we want to be more positive: The integration of Korea into Asia might take a bit of planning. If we get more Masters, I would also assume they might move one of them to China?
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On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc.
Thanks for sharing! 
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Guessing online only version of GSL. No Studio. Only 1 AI Caster, and only a top 8 bracket.
They won't attempt to crowdfund to run the tournament or sell any merchandise for people. It will be 360p in a box that tells people to watch on the SOOP App for Samsung Fridges for the best viewing experience. During the finals players can fax in their drawings to be shown on the stream. The best drawing will win a free GSL pin. (but you must live in Korea to claim the winnings)
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Northern Ireland25099 Posts
They’ve still got a long way to go to beat NASL for non-announcements mind!
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I personally think SC2 (and other titles) as an eSports is over or will come to an end over the next few years. The only reason to be a competitive gamer is if you really want to give up your teenage and young adult life to compete and achieve your dream. But when I say give up, I mean give up. I can't imagine these teenagers and adults are attending school or getting a quality education while they fly all around the world to compete and play video games. The risk vs reward is too great. The fact we have professional gamers getting married or having a baby surprises me. I don't know how they do it given the time and commitment they have to put into the game.
Look at Parasite who revealed he makes up to $240k annually off just ad revenue while streaming with 500 viewers. Sure he's an outlier but FanFan made $150k watching videos, talking, and playing video games with no stress. Add in the donation, ad sponsorships, OnlyFans subscriptions, and you can easily make more.
I personally know someone who has been unemployed for over a year after getting laid off from his job at one of the largest banks in Canada. He's focusing more on social media and he's probably making good money given he doesn't seem to be in a rush to look for a job, despite the extremely high cost of living here. I know Uber paid him a few hundred a few months ago and gave him free food to advertise on Instagram. I believe he only had to make 2 or 3 posts to fulfill his contract.
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China6329 Posts
On August 30 2024 01:38 Balnazza wrote:
There will probably be some more downsizing. Or if we want to be more positive: The integration of Korea into Asia might take a bit of planning. If we get more Masters, I would also assume they might move one of them to China?
I think that makes a lot sense as long as logistics are properly dealt with. We are arguably the biggest market for SC2 at the moment.
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However, Katowice 2025 is likely
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On August 31 2024 10:01 tankmage wrote:
However, Katowice 2025 is likely
SC2 is not even in the spodek anymore, so yeah it's definitely likely. They don't need to pay a lot to have it and it's always filled up the smaller venue so why not? If people weren't attending previous SC2 events in katowice then I would be concerned.
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On August 30 2024 11:35 geokilla wrote:I personally think SC2 (and other titles) as an eSports is over or will come to an end over the next few years. The only reason to be a competitive gamer is if you really want to give up your teenage and young adult life to compete and achieve your dream. But when I say give up, I mean give up. I can't imagine these teenagers and adults are attending school or getting a quality education while they fly all around the world to compete and play video games. The risk vs reward is too great. The fact we have professional gamers getting married or having a baby surprises me. I don't know how they do it given the time and commitment they have to put into the game. Look at Parasite who revealed he makes up to $240k annually off just ad revenue while streaming with 500 viewers. Sure he's an outlier but FanFan made $150k watching videos, talking, and playing video games with no stress. Add in the donation, ad sponsorships, OnlyFans subscriptions, and you can easily make more. I personally know someone who has been unemployed for over a year after getting laid off from his job at one of the largest banks in Canada. He's focusing more on social media and he's probably making good money given he doesn't seem to be in a rush to look for a job, despite the extremely high cost of living here. I know Uber paid him a few hundred a few months ago and gave him free food to advertise on Instagram. I believe he only had to make 2 or 3 posts to fulfill his contract.
I mean...there are thousand upon thousands of people in my country alone who do their choosen sport "as a job" and they certainly don't get rich from it either. In fact, probably a lot of Esports-pros earn sums these people would kill for. Also rather odd to think now of all times would be the moment to call the end of Esports. People are working and living in this industry as far back as the early 2000s and the money and security now is better than it ever was, so is the hype around it. Not saying it is perfect and of course the sustainability as an industry is still fragile to shitty, but that has always been the case. Though of course, when the money gets tighter, there will be players who use Esports just as a stepping stone. In WC3 for example it was rather common that players would invest only a few years into the game, gathering money for College or any other big expenses, before moving on.
Also saying "just get 500 viewer on Twitch and live from that" is basically the same as "just get into the Top 16 of every tournament". I can't remember the exact number, but a streamer (one of those 500ish viewer streamers) I follow said one or two years back that when you have 7 viewers on Twitch, you are already in the top 10% (or even higher) of streamers. That is how many people stream on Twitch for their one or two friends.
Living off of streaming is a niché, getting enough from it that you actually can build your future on it is even more niché and getting rich from it is almost as likely as winning the lottery.
Not to mention that the players who do have good viewer numbers often (not always ofc) have these exactly because they compete in Esports. If they would have build their streams purely around their personalities and entertainment value...yieks.
A few things will of course change in Esports. It will be interesting to see if CS and LoL will stay the "eternal games", with Valve taking back the reigns for CS and Riot planning out their next steps to make LoL Esports more profitable. Will Valorant enter the pantheon? Can DotA2 recover or will it dissolve further? Can any new game even enter the field? Is it impossible to make Esports work as a new game without the Publisher/Developer taking over immediately?
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United States337 Posts
On August 30 2024 04:03 Highwinds wrote:
Guessing online only version of GSL. No Studio. Only 1 AI Caster, and only a top 8 bracket.
They won't attempt to crowdfund to run the tournament or sell any merchandise for people. It will be 360p in a box that tells people to watch on the SOOP App for Samsung Fridges for the best viewing experience. During the finals players can fax in their drawings to be shown on the stream. The best drawing will win a free GSL pin. (but you must live in Korea to claim the winnings)
Who leaked company documents to you?
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On September 01 2024 03:28 afreecaTV.Char wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2024 04:03 Highwinds wrote:
Guessing online only version of GSL. No Studio. Only 1 AI Caster, and only a top 8 bracket.
They won't attempt to crowdfund to run the tournament or sell any merchandise for people. It will be 360p in a box that tells people to watch on the SOOP App for Samsung Fridges for the best viewing experience. During the finals players can fax in their drawings to be shown on the stream. The best drawing will win a free GSL pin. (but you must live in Korea to claim the winnings) Who leaked company documents to you?
LOL i thought a leak actually happened until i read the quoted message
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The only thing that's keeping SC2 alive now is our good ol' Oil $$$. Given Gamers8 back in 2023 had those "Old legend fights", I think there are some decision maker that loves SC series. So if in any ways, the pro players decided to stay for 2025, the Saudis will continue hosting it.
So I guess the balls are with ESL, if they decide to host 2025, even if with a smaller prize pool, but at least the top 20 guys will stay cause you will expect a good payday come Oil Cup.
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EPT
