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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue.
It’s quite strange to me. People will happily donate to streamers or sub to them, but my intuition is wouldn’t pay for something like a tournament watching pass.
I can’t think of anyone who tried outside maybe GOM in SC2’s early days.
Broadcasting deals and live attendance revenues are a huge part of what makes regular sport viable commercially.
I think it’s obvious why the latter proves difficult. eSports’ Biggest asset is a low bar to entry and not being geographically locked down in terms of playing them, but that’s a hindrance in pulling in revenue from live events.
But quite how they’ve consistently struggled to pull money from broadcasting in great numbers, that’s a bit more curious.
I guess the relationship of the broadcast mediums is totally different. Sky Sports will pay big, big money to the English Premier League to show their product, or the NFL with their broadcast partners. Then people will pay money for their Sky Sports subscription.
Whereas any eSport event will be on Twitch or YouTube. I’m unsure of the mechanics of it, or the breakdowns but I imagine whatever eSports org will get a cut of whatever ad revenue that broadcast generates, and the platform itself will take a cut.
I don’t know how that problem gets solved. But it feels to me that it’s not purely a problem of turning interest into revenue, but also in actually holding on to what revenue is generated.
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There is a patch, pros are being signed for ewc, nothing has been announced as over. I think it's safe to say it's not over. Just waiting on the official announcement.
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United States33509 Posts
I think the info we have makes it clear that there will be SOME form of ESL-run SC2 in 2025—it's now a matter of what scale it will be on. While fans can be cautiously optimistic, we should also be prepared for even further contraction.
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On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc.
Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking.
What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao.
What younger talent? Same dudes like every year?
The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2024 06:04 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job
Hey man you hate SC2, we get it
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On November 08 2024 06:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:04 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job Hey man you hate SC2, we get it
He is just really lonely and bored with BW. Poor guy 
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I just hate people lying to themselves and the constant delusions.
Funny how your only replies are personal attacks
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2024 07:36 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:
I just hate people lying to themselves and the constant delusions.
Funny how your only replies are personal attacks
User was temp banned for this post.
If you could be arsed to look I’ve criticised the funding of the rowdy Saudis on innumerable occasions
But hey, listening to what other people actually say and engaging is tough these days, I get that
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On November 08 2024 03:59 Waxangel wrote:
I think the info we have makes it clear that there will be SOME form of ESL-run SC2 in 2025—it's now a matter of what scale it will be on. While fans can be cautiously optimistic, we should also be prepared for even further contraction.
yup. agreed, and i think contraction is likely. it'll probably get smaller and thats okay. we were worried it wasn't going to be around at all.
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On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue.
Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill.
To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago.
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On November 08 2024 06:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:04 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job Hey man you hate SC2, we get it
I hate wombat patch. You feel me
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 08 2024 08:46 Blitzball04 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:11 WombaT wrote:On November 08 2024 06:04 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote:On August 23 2024 23:31 ZombieGrub wrote:On August 23 2024 11:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On August 23 2024 07:56 Brutaxilos wrote:
ZG on her stream yesterday mentioned she was feeling confident for the next few years. She mentioned she spoke with someone she considered reputable who claimed to have heard from some higher ups that they want to keep StarCraft for at least the next few years. Obviously just a hearsay statement, but she was confident enough to say it on stream. ZG throws around compliments like man hole covers; over the years she has a credible track record when she has speculated. She has never been afraid to be negative. So, I'd say this is a positive sign. Also, there is not necessarily a need to listen to the words of the SC2 major players. Watch their actions. If they continue to invest in SC2 then chances are ... they are not doing it as an act of charity. Chances are .. they see value in the competitive landscape. Thanks? haha I talked to a separate esport's talent who had lunch with some uhh important people, and at least one person said "SC2 for a few more years at least" and pointed toward its credibility, prestige, history, etc. It could've been smoke blowing but I'm guessing this person doesn't need to do a whole lot of that on the day-to-day. It is just hearsay but it makes sense. If EWC wants to keep a RTS to fulfill an "olympics of esports" vision, SC2 still remains top dog despite Blizzard giving us the shaft. Plus, I'm doubtful anyone really wants to be the "one who killed SC2" - they're looking for good press, not bad. The bigger question is, imo, whether or not there's a full circuit. Having one huge tournament every summer will only keep the scene going for so long, and won't really get it to thrive. It's gotta be a circuit with a few big tournaments, and a commitment to years, not year, to encourage younger talent to try and overtake the likes of Clem, Serral, Maru, etc. Thats a lot of strawmanning and wishful thinking. What press? Nobody would be mad "killing SC2". Have you seen the viewership numbers lmao. What younger talent? Same dudes like every year? The only reason there are still a few pros around is due to Saudi money, and given that they have done no announcement so far doesnt bode well. These dudes may need to find a real job Hey man you hate SC2, we get it I hate wombat patch
Many do, including me
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On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent.
I take back what i said i misread
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On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago.
The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has.
I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule.
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On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule.
It was also one of Twitch's biggest financial losses ever, so it's safe to say we won't see that ever happening again any time soon.
Esports suffers a bit from the problem of there simply being too much online content. Esports competes with streamers, and it also competes with itself. I have only been a consistent viewer of maybe 2 or 3 esports at once. Starcraft & Melee are probably the only two I watch regularly and follow the events of. Perhaps if a big Valorant tournament is on, I'll tune in. Meanwhile, any time I want to watch esports content, I'm deciding between this tournament I'm casually invested in, or watching streamers / youtube / tv shows / etc.
Perhaps we can think about esports like we do less popular sports. Does anyone here know who the best players in Bowling, or Pool, or Badminton are? Does anyone here even follow those sports? I've seen a couple tournaments before, and I've watched some badminton olympics before, but I can assure you that very little of my money went from my pocket to their bank accounts due to sponsorships / advertising / broadcasting rights for those sports. And consequently, the majority of pros in those sports are broke and make very little money. Shit, even tennis players outside the top 200 make pretty mediocre amounts. Chess is the same way. Plenty of fans, and even a moderate amount of money in it. But the only people with meaningful incomes are top 20. Everyone else is either poor, born rich, or being bankrolled by their government.
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On November 08 2024 11:59 Blargh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote:On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. It was also one of Twitch's biggest financial losses ever, so it's safe to say we won't see that ever happening again any time soon. Esports suffers a bit from the problem of there simply being too much online content. Esports competes with streamers, and it also competes with itself. I have only been a consistent viewer of maybe 2 or 3 esports at once. Starcraft & Melee are probably the only two I watch regularly and follow the events of. Perhaps if a big Valorant tournament is on, I'll tune in. Meanwhile, any time I want to watch esports content, I'm deciding between this tournament I'm casually invested in, or watching streamers / youtube / tv shows / etc. Perhaps we can think about esports like we do less popular sports. Does anyone here know who the best players in Bowling, or Pool, or Badminton are? Does anyone here even follow those sports? I've seen a couple tournaments before, and I've watched some badminton olympics before, but I can assure you that very little of my money went from my pocket to their bank accounts due to sponsorships / advertising / broadcasting rights for those sports. And consequently, the majority of pros in those sports are broke and make very little money. Shit, even tennis players outside the top 200 make pretty mediocre amounts. Chess is the same way. Plenty of fans, and even a moderate amount of money in it. But the only people with meaningful incomes are top 20. Everyone else is either poor, born rich, or being bankrolled by their government.
I mean, most sports compete with each other. There is a reason why most sports try to avoid each other as best as possible. Or in easier terms: Whenever there is a FIFA World Cup or UEFA European Championship, you can bet that literally nothing else will be hosted in Europe at that time - because it is just pointless.
Anyway, you are nailing it: Esports is clearly not on the level of Football or the Big US Leagues. But it is also not as bad as a lot of other sports are. I often say a lot of athletes would love to have the funding LoL or CS:GO offers. Not that most Esports players get reach, it ranged from a nice sidejob to actually getting rich - which are a select few, depending on the game (e.g. Serral).
But hey, the Esports journey is kind of young, almost 30 years at best. It's not like even the big sports have been financial successes right from the get-go. Pretty sure a good chunk of the '54 Heroes of Bern still had regular job. The first german female football team that won anything big got a freaking tea set as payment...and that was just ~30 years ago aswell.
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Football, basketball, baseball, etc., takes time to garner traction and develop fanbase.
Same as eSports, I think eSports will get bigger. But individual titles and games within that bucket will inevitably fall. Computers change generation every year or every two years, humans change generation every 30 years and with little to no change in fundamentals (unfortunately or fortunately, Moore's law not applicable to human evolution/biology).
Back to SC2, fingers crossed for another year of fun, just hoping the Saudi $ can be announced sooner. Lots of top players are removed from Aligulac ranking bcuz of inactivity already.
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On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule.
The tv deals are what I was referring too. It is sponsor dependent, just not directly. The tv companies pay a lot of money because they are able to sell advertising and make a profit. The leagues, at least the US ones, consider those advertisers as their sponsors. The leagues do work closely with some of the bigger advertisers but at the same time, the tv companies have more business experience so it helps having them as an intermediary.
If Twitch tried that avenue with Blizzard and lost money on it, that's a huge problem for esports.
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On November 13 2024 01:20 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote:On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. The tv deals are what I was referring too. It is sponsor dependent, just not directly. The tv companies pay a lot of money because they are able to sell advertising and make a profit. The leagues, at least the US ones, consider those advertisers as their sponsors. The leagues do work closely with some of the bigger advertisers but at the same time, the tv companies have more business experience so it helps having them as an intermediary. If Twitch tried that avenue with Blizzard and lost money on it, that's a huge problem for esports.
I'm honestly not sure who lost how much on the OWL, but it certainly wasn't a great promotion for these kind of deals. But that was also when Youtube, Mixer and Facebook (who got EPL in CSGO) tried to get a slice of the market aswell. Today, there is basically no real competition for Twitch anymore, so there is also not much reason to even pay for these kind of deals.
Btw: EWC 2025 has been officially confirmed, though with no news about the games etc. So we got a tiny bit closer to an answer.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 13 2024 05:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2024 01:20 andrewlt wrote:On November 08 2024 10:50 Balnazza wrote:On November 08 2024 08:43 andrewlt wrote:On November 07 2024 15:08 Balnazza wrote:On November 07 2024 14:32 geokilla wrote:On November 07 2024 01:27 followZeRoX wrote:
SC2 dying as an Esport would be a blow but would also open the doors for someone to make better competitive rts which is actually supported.
Blizzard making Warcraft2 remaster shows that they dropped rts entirely in a competitive environment. Even the LPL scene is facing massive cuts, with rumors that we won't recognize 80% of the players next year. People can deny it all they want but the fact of the matter is, competitive eSports is shrinking. It's easier to make money streaming then it is to be a professional gamer. The eSports-scene is shrinking because it is still heavily investor and sponsor dependent. Considering the current economic climate, there is less money going around. The LoL circuit shrinking is a part of that, but it is also Riots way of trying to make it into a more sustainable business. I'm actually kind of hopeful for that one to work. But even if it works perfectly, it probably won't have much effect on other games. Esports is still bigger than most other traditional sports and is still growing to an extend. It just isn't profitable, because it is hard to funnel all that excitement and fandom into revenue. Even traditional sports are heavily sponsor dependent. The difference is that sponsors pay enough money for leagues to organize tournaments and pay their players and staff a good salary. E-sports sponsorship is heavily player based, with much of the money going to big name players who may be over the hill. To give an example, I've been watching some fighting games recently. In Street Fighter, players are not traveling as much as they used to. The international contingent in many tournaments is shrinking. The players who are able to travel are doing so because their sponsor is willing to pay for it. These players skew older, many of whom peaked 10+ years ago. The big money-maker in big traditional sports are usually not sponsors, but the TV deals. A lot of smaller sports (e.g. Icehockey or Basketball in Germany) struggle quite a lot aswell, because they don't have these big TV deals that football has. I'm not aware how many big "deals" of this type exist in Esports. I know that Twitch paid Blizzard a hefty sum so the OWL would be exclusive on Twitch, but that is definetly an oddity, not the rule. The tv deals are what I was referring too. It is sponsor dependent, just not directly. The tv companies pay a lot of money because they are able to sell advertising and make a profit. The leagues, at least the US ones, consider those advertisers as their sponsors. The leagues do work closely with some of the bigger advertisers but at the same time, the tv companies have more business experience so it helps having them as an intermediary. If Twitch tried that avenue with Blizzard and lost money on it, that's a huge problem for esports. I'm honestly not sure who lost how much on the OWL, but it certainly wasn't a great promotion for these kind of deals. But that was also when Youtube, Mixer and Facebook (who got EPL in CSGO) tried to get a slice of the market aswell. Today, there is basically no real competition for Twitch anymore, so there is also not much reason to even pay for these kind of deals. Btw: EWC 2025 has been officially confirmed, though with no news about the games etc. So we got a tiny bit closer to an answer.
Yeah good point, Twitch is basically as dominant in that space as YouTube is in the user-produced VoD space. So they don’t really have incentive to do big, statement deals.
I think there’s so many points of failure in the OWL league that it’s difficult to really draw too many conclusions about individual calls, or modules. Some were even purely unfortunate circumstance. I mean Covid hit them much harder than other eSports orgs, because they tried to build a different kind of model
For example, having regional or city-based franchises. I can see that actually working, but I think you can’t half-ass an appeal to regional pride.
The idk, ‘Belfast Bangers’ should be full of Belfastians. Let’s cheer our boys. Otherwise why bother doing franchises in that way?
You also have the thing, I mean look it’s not easy to be an eSports pro. It’s way easier than being a professional footballer, or an NFL player.
So you’re a young kid, you’ve got your Belfast Bangers, they’re probably getting smacked most week, but they’re there. You could realistically aspire to maybe get drafted onto that team in a few years if the barrier is being among the best in the region. That’s absolutely doable
Having a franchise system where nation doesn’t really matter, it’s part 1 why care about a particular one, and 2 you push the bar up that aspiring players have to be world elite level to ever get a shot.
Some of the biggest initial strides made in eSports had nation at their centre, and I think there are also some advantages there.
I’m thinking WCG specifically.
The Olympics aren’t the best of the best. They’re the couple/several best from each nation, so who’s actually #1 doesn’t functionally change, but you open up all sorts of other reasonable, achievable goals for many. Maybe you can scrape a medal that you couldn’t do if it was purely the best 10 competitors or whatever. Maybe just GOING to the Olympics and seeing how you compete is your level.
It’s a good model, I think WCG emulating it was wise but we’ve never really seen it fully replicated lately.
What that model does well, and you notice when it drops, is it maintains localised grass roots competitions, because there’s a set of graduating goals.
I’m one of a handful of people who really worked to build a connected local scene here, and subsequently expanded to be all-Ireland. Like 16 or so LANs down, which we usually just consider a de-facto Northern Irish and subsequently Irish championship.
It’s hard to maintain enthusiasm, or at least a competitive standard of people really trying. Especially with a population that’s getting older and has less time.
For whatever reason the UK doesn’t really have a tradition of top RTS players, Northern Ireland being a part of that doesn’t, and Ireland doesn’t either. So people who maybe could try to go pro have to get really fucking good and make connections with folks in mainland Europe. It’s not impossible but it’s hard
I’ve said it for about 14 years, a new WCG would be absolutely fantastic for the overall scene, especially in nations where there’s not a big cohort of pro players.
You can still keep elite, best of the best competition, and in parallel you have those kind of events.
You build grassroots scenes because they have more realistic incentives. Rather than ‘OK I’m the best in Ireland, hey thats cool’, you have ‘I’m the best of Ireland, fuck yeah I’m going to WCG’ or whatever
Nation Wars is another competition I really loved for these kinda reasons. We failed to make the grade as a nation but we had qualifiers to shoot for and those were fun too. And results perhaps didn’t indicate it, but I can assure you Irish players were practicing and playing together a lot more with that there!
For my money eSports needs graduation if it’s to ever fully succeed and actualise its potential. This is something established sports have. From local competition, to being an Irish Olympian or whatever, to being an elite competitor, and all those various stages.
So long as eSports is either you’re a decent amateur who plays on ladder, or an actual (relatively) top tier pro and not much in between, I think it’ll be unable to fully realise its potential.
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