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France13015 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru :  Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year.
Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes
Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think
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On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think
No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that
On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year.
The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins.
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France13015 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins.
It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance.
For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year
But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games.
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals.
You have to remember that Terran is never in a decent spot no matter what results they’re putting in.
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Flash didn't have his buddies editing BW for him, so no.
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On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games.
I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric.
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France13015 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric.
The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years.
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On June 12 2024 00:00 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:
[quote]
I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was).
Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had.
Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years.
If a metric is only good when it agrees with conclusions you've already made up from different evidence, it's not a good metric.
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France13015 Posts
On June 12 2024 00:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 00:00 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
[quote]
I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat.
Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens.
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years. If a metric is only good when it agrees with conclusions you've already made up from different evidence, it's not a good metric.
Metrics are not good or bad, they are just metrics
Let's agree to disagree then, I don't really understand your point
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
There are worse metrics, but I think as SC2 often goes very top-heavy with prize distributions, and indeed in pools between tournaments it can get a bit wonky pretty quickly trying to draw too much from it.
Plus there may just simply be more players of a certain race in certain scenes at certain times to boot.
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On June 12 2024 00:05 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 00:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 12 2024 00:00 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:
[quote]
Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years. If a metric is only good when it agrees with conclusions you've already made up from different evidence, it's not a good metric. Metrics are not good or bad, they are just metrics Let's agree to disagree then, I don't really understand your point
The purpose of a metric is to measure. If it fails to do so, it is a bad metric. Since winnings cannot be used to measure performance without already knowing the correct answer, it is a bad metric for that purpose.
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It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone.
I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork.
But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW.
I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash.
Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's.
Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so.
I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined.
If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral.
This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral.
On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post.
I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no..
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On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. Show nested quote +On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no..
Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated.
He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world.
Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon.
The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals
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On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals
What you fail to mention is why Serrals regional results are impressive - up to this point, no one has ever dominated the WCS Circuit. None of the koreans, none of the foreign top players. Serral came in and took it in dominating fashion. Then he came into GSL vs. the World and destroyed two of the best koreans of all time (Innovation/Dark) and won it over Stats. And then he went into BlizzCon and yet again seemed completly untouchable.
That is what made his 2018 so incredible. Not really the fact that he lost two series or something like that in the entire year.
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On June 12 2024 01:59 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote:On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals What you fail to mention is why Serrals regional results are impressive - up to this point, no one has ever dominated the WCS Circuit. None of the koreans, none of the foreign top players. Serral came in and took it in dominating fashion. Then he came into GSL vs. the World and destroyed two of the best koreans of all time (Innovation/Dark) and won it over Stats. And then he went into BlizzCon and yet again seemed completly untouchable. That is what made his 2018 so incredible. Not really the fact that he lost two series or something like that in the entire year.
Neeb literally won 3 out of 4 WCS the previous year and the koreans couldn't dominate it because they couldn't play in it as you know very well.
Nowadays region-locked events are worth a bit more because foreigners are a lot stronger now, but back then the competition in foreign tournaments really wasn't impressive. I mean, freaking Has made it to the finals
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On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals
You're leaving out HSC 18, HomeStory Cup/18, where Serral also beat Bunny, Bly, Trap, soO, Stephano, souL, Hellsraiser, Taeja, uThermal, Bunny again, and Innovation.
I mean these kinds of three major tournament wins in a row are crazy impressive. But the absolutely insane thing is not like any single tournament alone, including the WCS region locked ones. It's that across an insane amount of series he didn't lose one.. Even the absolute top dogs at any time would regularly drop a series. Serral going like 60-0 (or whatever he did) is immensely more impressive then going 59-1.
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On June 12 2024 02:34 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote:On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals You're leaving out HSC 18, HomeStory Cup/18, where Serral also beat Bunny, Bly, Trap, soO, Stephano, souL, Hellsraiser, Taeja, uThermal, Bunny again, and Innovation. I mean these kinds of three major tournament wins in a row are crazy impressive. But the absolutely insane thing is not like any single tournament alone, including the WCS region locked ones. It's that across an insane amount of series he didn't lose one.. Even the absolute top dogs at any time would regularly drop a series. Serral going like 60-0 (or whatever he did) is immensely more impressive then going 59-1.
I left HSC out because it didn't qualify for the criteria of including "all the best players in the world".
Serral going 60-0 is impressive and unique but unique mostly because the opponents top players face are usually much better on average.
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
I think we have to zoom back to those days to appraise it. Serral (and Maru to a significant but slightly lesser degree) have really normalised putting up these very high win rates and placing every single tournament.
That was much less of a thing back in the day, never mind the big tournaments but even at slightly lower levels.
A Summer of Taeja was notable enough if we go back, and those weren’t all the blue ribbon events.
There’s also a bit of a cumulative multiplier in doing it all simultaneously. Ticking off those lesser tournaments while also peaking for the biggest of all, even now is still quite a rare thing.
Hell a Rogue, or perhaps Reynor last year have this reputation for regardless of disappointing tournaments to show up big for those blue ribbon events. Serral was doing both in that span.
It was a pretty remarkable sequence, even in terms of victories in those events, but when we factor in him not merely winning, but just not dropping series it’s pretty crazy.
I think a pretty fair argument can be made that Rogue had a better year prior, or Maru winning 4 GSLs on the spin was as, or more impressive but I wouldn’t say it is overrated either
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On June 12 2024 03:05 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2024 02:34 Pandain wrote:On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote:On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote:It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote:
Probably better than Flash
Serral won during the peak (skillwise)
Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL
User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals You're leaving out HSC 18, HomeStory Cup/18, where Serral also beat Bunny, Bly, Trap, soO, Stephano, souL, Hellsraiser, Taeja, uThermal, Bunny again, and Innovation. I mean these kinds of three major tournament wins in a row are crazy impressive. But the absolutely insane thing is not like any single tournament alone, including the WCS region locked ones. It's that across an insane amount of series he didn't lose one.. Even the absolute top dogs at any time would regularly drop a series. Serral going like 60-0 (or whatever he did) is immensely more impressive then going 59-1. I left HSC out because it didn't qualify for the criteria of including "all the best players in the world". Serral going 60-0 is impressive and unique but unique mostly because the opponents top players face are usually much better on average.
If the criteria is ‘all of the best players in the world’ then GSL hasn’t had that for 6 years.
Homestory Cup is a more relaxed tournament, and the field does tend to fluctuate in quality tournament to tournament but that’s a pretty decent list of scalps.
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On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote:On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote:On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote:On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote:
Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings. Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote:
I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric.
eh, prize money is divided by region not in-game-race, the split by region affects discussions about nationalities but not in-game-races
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EPT
