EPTIs Serral a Flash of SC2?
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
SiarX
98 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military | ||
|
sertas
Sweden879 Posts
| ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44019 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2429 Posts
| ||
|
MJG
United Kingdom819 Posts
On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote: The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc. Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military This. I don't even need to follow BW to know that Flash's achievements are utterly remarkable. | ||
|
Blargh
United States2101 Posts
| ||
|
outscar
2832 Posts
I respect Serral but he will never be FlaSh even if he wins 20 more trophies. | ||
|
Durnuu
13319 Posts
| ||
|
PremoBeats
269 Posts
BUT Serral is definitely a little bit too late to have competed in the most competitive era. While in my opinion there is no doubt that Flash is the GOAT of Starcraft and Serral is the GOAT of Starcraft 2, you can't compare the two, because of the era that Flash dominated in. | ||
|
Agh
United States899 Posts
The present will always hold more weight since the players are just going to be better. To reach someone like Happy(war3) or Serral(sc2)'s dominance shows extreme dedication and ability. For instance Moon always got the nod even though people like Lyn made compelling runs at times. But since Happy has cemented himself as the goat even if he stops playing or completely falls off it is very unlikely anyone would surpass him, but not impossible. Serral is probably as close as you're going to get. Sc2 is just such a brutally difficult game, the consistency he exhibits is pretty mind blowing. The only real challengers he has is Maru and someone like Life had they remained. Given the time that each game has been out relative to their dominance is a good metric to bolster the argument. Then again why ponder anything you could always just refer to a 'goat' list to get some super fried takes  | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
| ||
|
Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
(I recognize that SC2 has not really "had bonjwas," but IIRC, "bonjwa" was largely applied retroactively to Boxer, Nada, Iloveoov AFTER Savior, so... maybe not unreasonable to do some retroactive bonjwa-ing in SC?). | ||
|
LukaMav
28 Posts
Serral won during the peak (skillwise) Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL User was banned for this post. | ||
|
DarkPlasmaBall
United States44019 Posts
| ||
|
Blargh
United States2101 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote: Probably better than Flash Serral won during the peak (skillwise) Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL This is always a silly argument. Of course players get better and better over time. The level they play at is improved over 2014, but the competition is not. We can only evaluate the performance and "skill" relative to their peers at a given time, and the dominance over their peers. Serrall might be dominant, but he is dominant over fewer players in a less competitive setting. Are his skills better than 2013? Undoubtedly. But it's not like those skills were there without the rest of the scene developing first. | ||
|
Nasigil1
96 Posts
The difference in level of competition is obvious, although it's a bit unfair to Serral that he was born too late and didn't catch the golden age of Sc2. He only finished school and go full time after 2017. That being said his resume in 2018 is still pretty crazy, that was the time where most of Korean sc2 pros still played and maintained a high level. Still not quite on the level of Flash's insanity in 2010 tho. Flash also had that crazy period where he plays random and still regularly beating other top players. This shows his understanding and skill is almost a level above everyone else in the scene. Serral so far has only show dominance with Zerg. I do want to point out that Serral has one argument in his favor- he's a foreigner, therefore he never have access to all the Korean Esports infrastructure, practice environment and high level competition (I know KeSPA collapsed but what's left in Korea is still miles above everywhere else in the world). Serral only gets to practice in EU ladder and compete with EU players during his early career. How did he rise up to top of the world with much inferior practice and competition environment? I don't know. It makes no sense. Only explanation is just exquisite talent. Imagine what could have been if Serral was born in Korea and had access to all those things. Or imagine how Flash would do if he was born in Finland. That's an interesting question to consider. | ||
|
Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
But, timing is everything, as people have mentioned, back when SC2 was bumping and competition was at it's absolute peak, Serral was practically a nobody. Back in the KESPA era, BW was extremely competitive, and Flash dominated HARD during the entire time. Serral is amazing, but sorry, no Flash. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but imo BW is a substantially challenging more game to play as well, so extra points to Flash there as well. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
| ||
|
Nirli
Bulgaria357 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:23 Nasigil1 wrote: although it's a bit unfair to Serral that he was born too late and didn't catch the golden age of Sc2. This is a silly argument, everybody knows that Facundo Ramirez was, skill-wise, the best raw talent for SC2 the world has ever seen. Sadly the war he experience in his youth, and the fact that he was born in 1927 Spain, made his career almost imposible. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 06 2024 03:33 Argonauta wrote: This is a silly argument, everybody knows that Facundo Ramirez was, skill-wise, the best raw talent for SC2 the world has ever seen. Sadly the war he experience in his youth, and the fact that he was born in 1927 Spain, made his career almost imposible. Yeah we could also say it's a bit unfair to Inno (or whatever player) that he entered the scene when competition was at its peak and it was far harder to win tournaments. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
I think, albeit there’s no guarantees of anything but a Serral that surfaced a bit earlier maybe does hit a level of consistency nobody else in that era hits, but not something that parallels some of Flash’s feats | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:26 Beelzebub1 wrote: First off, I love Serral, Serral is currently (and has been) the the most dominant player. But, timing is everything, as people have mentioned, back when SC2 was bumping and competition was at it's absolute peak, Serral was practically a nobody. Back in the KESPA era, BW was extremely competitive, and Flash dominated HARD during the entire time. Serral is amazing, but sorry, no Flash. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but imo BW is a substantially challenging more game to play as well, so extra points to Flash there as well. I’d say it’s probably harder to dominate the easier game than it is the harder one. I can maybe go 20% win rate against my friend in pool, but this drops to 0% in snooker when the table is much bigger, positional excellence is rewarded further etc. In pool I can get a lucky break, or a fortuitous shot here or there and that can be enough to capitalise on. Of course it’s a not entirely applicable analogy but I think somewhat apt. SC2 is still an incredibly hard game, in ways perhaps harder than BW because it’s a little easier with QoL changes. You can’t close an early deficit with pure macro because most top, top players are able to macro pretty equivalently. Whereas in BW players can gain an edge/recover purely off being really, really good at macroing in a game where the UI is that much more clunky. It’s considerably harder to be even decent at BW for sure, but I think the flipside of this is that it’s probably easier to be dominant when you’re in the 0.1% of the playerbase | ||
|
_fool
Netherlands675 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:23 Nasigil1 wrote: Serral is the closest thing we have to Flash, but it's still not comparable I think. When people say "not comparable" they mean "very comparable, with a clear difference in a certain property" | ||
Waxangel
United States33175 Posts
In terms of specifics, Flash and Serral had really, really different careers, so I wouldn't use the comparison for anything deeper than "the best at their respective games." | ||
|
Expensive-Law-9830
108 Posts
That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Its like from one day to another, all pro football players would retire because no fucking one would watch football games anymore, and all professional clubs like Real Madrid would dissolve, and what is left are some random amateur football players from sunday league. Then you have some random bum who dominates the league. Then this forum would argue that this random bum from this league dominated the game like no other before, where games are ending like 10-0 normally in this league and this dude would have 100 goals a year playing against other fat fucks with health conditions. Would you seriously then discuss that this dude is better than Ronaldo or Messi? Yeah this is what my perspective is whenever I have to read the 50th GOAT discussion on SC2 this month. A complete farce. But whatever helps you cope with your lifes. | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1100 Posts
Is Serral as dominant as Flash? Yes, he is. Probably even more dominant. Without checking I'm kind of sure Serral has winrates (in general and against the very best) Flash couldn't reach. Especially 2024-Serral is probably one of the most dominant RTS-players of all time. Are they in the same situation? No, they are absolutely not. Flash played one of the most competitive games of all time in its most competitive era. Which is probably why people rank him so high, even though technically he had more "Bonjwa-competition" compared to Serral. But that is fine, he is still distinguished enough that people put him on that pedestal. So in that regard you can't compare Serral to Flash...in fact, you will be hard pressed to compare anyone to that. There are only a few Esports athletes who outrank Flash. Faker for example. Maybe s1mple in CSGO? Which then of course are teamgames, so it is hard to compare. Lastly, since multiple people mentioned it: No, Happy and Serral are absolutely fucking not in the same boat. WC3 is done, with a very small competitive scene and barely any offline competition...or money. Like...the biggest tournament of 2023 gave out a whopping 2,4K for the winner (Happy). I know, that seems a lot for those who only watch GSL, but that is the kind of money in SC2 that you get for reaching Top 8 in ESL America...Have you checked the EWC-prizepools? SC2 will have one of the biggest prizepools per player at the event, even bigger than Counterstrike. I love WC3 to death, I spend thousands of hours casting it in my youth, but Happy and co. compete for a yearly prizepool Serral earns by falling out of the bed. There is absolutely no comparison between the two scenes. | ||
|
Expensive-Law-9830
108 Posts
And even then, there is zero job security unless you bet on Saudis funding the scene. What happens when those Saudis are realizing that they are not getting any return on investment on SC2 (which they aren't), and that they should rather invest in other forms of propaganda? | ||
|
Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
| ||
|
Locutos
Brazil259 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:51 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Please, don't argue with prize pools. There is no new blood because everyone thinks SC2 is that impossible game to even compete with, especially when you just start. No one in their right mind would want to start playing SC2 to make a living, especially given that the only source of income is tournaments and it is HEAVILY top heavy. There is no new blood, but old blood retiring all the time. It is like wanting to train to become a lottery winner. The competition is getting diluted every day. And even then, there is zero job security unless you bet on Saudis funding the scene. What happens when those Saudis are realizing that they are not getting any return on investment on SC2 (which they aren't), and that they should rather invest in other forms of propaganda? YEA, train to become a lottery winner. That has dozens of ppl fighting for it, and always the same guy wins. And almost the same top 4. No skill based at all, pure luck it seems. Very well done on your analogy VERY WELL DONE | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Now imagine Serral not only did that, but retired for 5 years, then came back and won 4 GSLs in a row. And still made top 4 in the hardest tournament as random. The difference is insane Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. Serral might be the best sc2 player, but everything, and I mean everything, about his career is completely different. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:22 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Everyone who won anything before 2012 and after 2015 should not be anywhere close to a discussion of a GOAT lmao That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Its like from one day to another, all pro football players would retire because no fucking one would watch football games anymore, and all professional clubs like Real Madrid would dissolve, and what is left are some random amateur football players from sunday league. Then you have some random bum who dominates the league. Then this forum would argue that this random bum from this league dominated the game like no other before, where games are ending like 10-0 normally in this league and this dude would have 100 goals a year playing against other fat fucks with health conditions. Would you seriously then discuss that this dude is better than Ronaldo or Messi? Yeah this is what my perspective is whenever I have to read the 50th GOAT discussion on SC2 this month. A complete farce. But whatever helps you cope with your lifes. Truly taking myopic fanboyism to whole new levels | ||
|
Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:22 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Everyone who won anything before 2012 and after 2015 should not be anywhere close to a discussion of a GOAT lmao That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Maru won his first premier in 2013 against Rain who was in SK T1 at the time. | ||
|
Expensive-Law-9830
108 Posts
On June 06 2024 07:36 WombaT wrote: Truly taking myopic fanboyism to whole new levels I guess some people still enjoy watching sunday league football and those few people are all concentrated in this forum. Because otherwise I cannot explain this level of copium and delulu | ||
|
Expensive-Law-9830
108 Posts
tl.net Higher winrate than Flash so he must be the GOAT Also higher peak elo | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1100 Posts
On June 06 2024 08:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: I guess some people still enjoy watching sunday league football and those few people are all concentrated in this forum. Because otherwise I cannot explain this level of copium and delulu Careful to not cut yourself on all that edge. | ||
|
Cricketer12
United States13967 Posts
| ||
|
sidasf
74 Posts
Imagine if Serral had the same winrates he does now, except it was 10 years ago, against a pool of pros 10x bigger, against players actually in their primes and not several years removed. Imagine him still hitting those winrates in Proleague, where the guys he was playing were on salaries and could dedicate weeks to practicing builds just to snipe him.[quote] I don't agree with this comparison. Skill level has risen so drastically since then. Things that amazed people in pro games back then are now done every ladder game by random ass GM players. While I agree there was more competition back then, the level of skill pros play at now is arguable way, way higher than it was 10 years ago. [quote] Now imagine Serral not only did that, but retired for 5 years, then came back and won 4 GSLs in a row. And still made top 4 in the hardest tournament as random. The difference is insane[/quote] Agree here, I don't think Serral is equivalent to Flash. Flash is just something else. [quote]Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. Serral might be the best sc2 player, but everything, and I mean everything, about his career is completely different.[/QUOTE] Naw, Serral shits on Maru and he'd shit on MVP too. | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On June 06 2024 11:26 sidasf wrote: I don't agree with this comparison. Skill level has risen so drastically since then. Things that amazed people in pro games back then are now done every ladder game by random ass GM players. While I agree there was more competition back then, the level of skill pros play at now is arguable way, way higher than it was 10 years ago. Agree here, I don't think Serral is equivalent to Flash. Flash is just something else. Naw, Serral shits on Maru and he'd shit on MVP too. Sullying Mvp's good name is a bannable offense in these forums. | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On June 06 2024 06:44 Fango wrote: Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. | ||
|
LukaMav
28 Posts
On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote: I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. Lol Maru can’t even hold Flash or Serral’s jockstraps. Their dominance over their peers are legendary When Flash / Serral loses do we ever hear excuses after excuses like we do when Maru get stomps over and over? (Jet lag, ping, saving build, no practice, not taking it seriously, bracket rigged, Zerg Imba, toss A move, no rest after a long series in the previous round, and my personal favourite “injuries lol “ ) It’s quite comical to even have Maru mentioned in the same sentence as Flash / Serral. Maru is literally like Neeb, dominant his own region but gets outclassed outside it | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6802 Posts
| ||
|
followZeRoX
Serbia1449 Posts
On June 05 2024 21:16 Agh wrote: Can't really compare since it's just different times as well as games. The present will always hold more weight since the players are just going to be better. To reach someone like Happy(war3) or Serral(sc2)'s dominance shows extreme dedication and ability. For instance Moon always got the nod even though people like Lyn made compelling runs at times. But since Happy has cemented himself as the goat even if he stops playing or completely falls off it is very unlikely anyone would surpass him, but not impossible. Serral is probably as close as you're going to get. Sc2 is just such a brutally difficult game, the consistency he exhibits is pretty mind blowing. The only real challengers he has is Maru and someone like Life had they remained. Given the time that each game has been out relative to their dominance is a good metric to bolster the argument. Then again why ponder anything you could always just refer to a 'goat' list to get some super fried takes Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3? If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European | ||
|
argonautdice
Canada2704 Posts
| ||
|
M3t4PhYzX
Poland4164 Posts
Glad I could help. | ||
|
Cyro
United Kingdom20278 Posts
On June 05 2024 21:46 Mizenhauer wrote: Mvp is probably the closest analogy to Flash. Both played during a time where the best players were all in korea and both outperformed their peers by a large amount. Similar wrist/hand issues too | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
It's funny that Mvp, who was an excellent BW player, immediately switched to SC2. Mvp had his own reasons and the decision paid off. But, when it comes to the less talented and successful players who transitioned in 2010, I wonder how much their final decision was affected by the fact that they knew they weren't going to beat BW Flash no matter how hard they worked. | ||
|
RandomPlayer
Russian Federation383 Posts
On June 05 2024 20:23 Charoisaur wrote: The difference is: Flash did it in the most competitive period of the game where there were 100s of pros, teamhouses, infrastructure etc. Serral did in a scene that's a shadow of its former self with most of the other Goat contenders retired/declined/in- or just out of military Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose? | ||
|
stilt
France2743 Posts
On June 07 2024 00:58 followZeRoX wrote: Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3? If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European He is dominating the period you exclude aka a good 7 years with the resurgence of the chinese scene which made the wc3 scene more interesting and arguably more competitive than the 2009-10 area. (The time when finals were played in bo3 lol) He competed against players like infi, th000, lawliet, moon, 120, Life (new players btw), Lyn, focus, Fly100, chaemiko, fortitude. All that with 200 ping so yeah, that's a pretty extreme domination. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 07 2024 03:25 RandomPlayer wrote: Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose? teamhouses disbanding, military service and the ever decreasing GSL prize pool | ||
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 07 2024 03:25 RandomPlayer wrote: Any idea why most progamers quit SC2 by the time Serral arose? They were scared of the Finnish Phenom stealing their job, wives and food! But more seriously, each pro gamer have their reasons for trying to keep playing after their military, or not. | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1100 Posts
On June 07 2024 05:42 Charoisaur wrote: teamhouses disbanding, military service and the ever decreasing GSL prize pool That, plus the game was slowly settling into its final form, so the passion might be gone for more and more pros. Some also might have just certain goals and decided to move on. For Korea specifically another big reason is the regionlock. Before, effectively koreans who were good, but not good enough to consistently make deep runs into GSL could avoid the competition and farm money outside, even with the chance of reaching the World Finals. With that gone, the likes of Bomber, MMA and co. flooded back into GSL, effectively overcrowding it. | ||
|
Agh
United States899 Posts
On June 07 2024 00:58 followZeRoX wrote: Sorry but when did Happy dominated wc3? If he exclude recent results since no one plays that title anymore he wouldn’t be even top3 European For about half a decade now? Warcraft 3 scene is quite healthy. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/NKhbJNG.png) If you need additional context -- but that doesn't even highlight the tournaments where he not only didn't drop a single map the entire time, but basically made it look like Zangief was in the ring with a toddler. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 06 2024 11:53 Pandain wrote: I mean Maru is so far from Flash. Back when the competition was at a peak he was merely an extremely good player, but definitely not dominating the scene as a clear #1 player. He merely had times he was prob a #1 player. And by the time he got GSL 4peat he wasn't even the best player in the world then (Serral was). Don't have any opinions on Mvp but I'll say he definitely never had the aura that Flash or any of the bonjwas had. Serral is Flash in terms of dominance, but the scene isn't as competitive anymore so it's not as big a deal. I mean people exaggerate when they act like the scene is dead (not close), but it's obviously not 2014 level or even 2021 level. But people act like it's like not a big deal Serral is dominating like he is. No, it's pretty huge still. Just not as huge as it would have been. I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
Probably technically correct to call Flash the best Brood War player, but I'll never really feel it. | ||
|
darklycid
3374 Posts
On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote: I respectfully disagree that Serral was the best player in the world in 2018 during Maru 4peat. Zerg was in a favorable spot in both match-ups, while terran was pretty weak in TvP macro game and TvZ on certain maps (where even TY struggled vs Lambo). Rogue was better than Serral early in the year, and Maru was overall the best player in the world. It's unfortunate he had to face sOs who was the protoss clever enough to be able to deflect the cyclone shenanigans T had to pull off, but bracket luck happens. I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote: Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru :  Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings.Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1100 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I always find it weird when people talk about Flash's dominance in Brood War. Watching at the time, I never felt like he was unrivaled, the LeeSsang Rok was always the big thing, and as a certified hater I remember his high profile losses vividly. But I guess he did perform better than Jaedong overall? Probably technically correct to call Flash the best Brood War player, but I'll never really feel it. Personally I also don't get it, but I also never was that deep into BW, so I usually think of it as a novice opinion. Cool to see that someone else has the same train of thought. Though I guess if you bring in SC:R, Flashs dominance is extreme compared to the other three. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:25 Poopi wrote: His fourth GSL was in 2019, afaik vs Classic in the finals. 3rd win was the TvT finals vs TY. And yeah, terrans got destroyed that year outside of Maru : Winnings/2018 -> check top 10 players per race earnings.Both zerg and protoss have 4+ players at 100k$ +, while only Maru has won more than 100k$ for terran, and second is SpeCial with 92k$ (who benefits from his situation etc.) It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote: It also confirms that foreigners outperformed Koreans that year. Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:23 Poopi wrote: Region lock was a blessing for foreigners pockets overall, yes Otoh foreigner scene / viewers is more important in numbers than KR scene I think No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that On June 11 2024 21:47 Poopi wrote: I would say Rogue was the best player early 2018 alongside Maru, then Serral and Maru were. However, given the strength of zerg at the time compared to terran (terrans other than Maru were getting bodied over and over again), it is pretty clear to me that Maru was above everyone that year. The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:34 Fanatic-Templar wrote: No, I mean that the evidence you provided disproves your assertion that The 2018 winnings page you provided as evidence clearly shows that Serral was the best player that year, then Maru, then Rogue. By significant margins. It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
On June 11 2024 22:15 darklycid wrote: Terran got bodied so hard marus 4th gsl was a TvT finals. You have to remember that Terran is never in a decent spot no matter what results they’re putting in. | ||
|
THERIDDLER
Canada116 Posts
| ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:43 Poopi wrote: It is partial evidence that terrans overall got bodied (mainly in the foreign terrans), mainly due to balance. For those who followed sc2 carefully at this period, it was quite evident, but after 6 years, it is faster to just show those stats than go in detail about each patch / mappool / tournament of the year But I stand with my stance from before the finals, that Rogue or Serral would have both beaten Stats as ZvP was very doable for Stats. I was even surprised that Stats managed to take 2 games. I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 12 2024 00:00 Poopi wrote: The winnings were usually a good proxy for balance, especially during those years. If a metric is only good when it agrees with conclusions you've already made up from different evidence, it's not a good metric. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 12 2024 00:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote: If a metric is only good when it agrees with conclusions you've already made up from different evidence, it's not a good metric. Metrics are not good or bad, they are just metrics Let's agree to disagree then, I don't really understand your point | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
Plus there may just simply be more players of a certain race in certain scenes at certain times to boot. | ||
|
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 12 2024 00:05 Poopi wrote: Metrics are not good or bad, they are just metrics Let's agree to disagree then, I don't really understand your point The purpose of a metric is to measure. If it fails to do so, it is a bad metric. Since winnings cannot be used to measure performance without already knowing the correct answer, it is a bad metric for that purpose. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote: Probably better than Flash Serral won during the peak (skillwise) Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL User was banned for this post. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 12 2024 00:57 ejozl wrote: It's exactly what he is and this is from Serral's 2018 streak alone. I didn't watch any Flash in BW, I just watched very early games from Grrr...., BoXeR, very little Savior, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork. But Flash's 2010 results are VERY comparable to Serral's 2018 results. And remember Flash was hailed as god, GOAT and Bonjwa by all of BW casters entering SC2. This means Flash was Flash before his return to BW. I personally think that the culmination of Blizzcon 2018 was the peak of SC2 skill in sc2, same as when Flash had his results, I assume. Serral did win with the strongest race, but so did Flash. Before going to SC2, Fantasy was also starting to fight back on the dominance, so it's not like his record was perfect either, neither is Serral's. Current Serral results are definitely not meaningless, but I can see the problem with counting these results as the same, since that would mean that if you just hang around long enough, you become one of the best. ASL also has a huge asterix on it, is it really as competitive now as it once was?, I don't think so. I came from WC3 and there we had really great players, but nothing like the dominance that we see with Serral. The 2018 was really special and it should not be undermined. If SC2 would've had bonjwas Rogue would've been the first and then Serral. This is not really proof of anything, but Snute, whom was able to compete somewhat with koreans in a feat of absolute perseverance finally quit because of Serral. I only disagree with comparing former pros to high master, low GM, but this is something even Artosis says, but I guess he would've been banned for trolling as well??, yeah, no.. Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals | ||
|
Balnazza
Germany1100 Posts
On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote: Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals What you fail to mention is why Serrals regional results are impressive - up to this point, no one has ever dominated the WCS Circuit. None of the koreans, none of the foreign top players. Serral came in and took it in dominating fashion. Then he came into GSL vs. the World and destroyed two of the best koreans of all time (Innovation/Dark) and won it over Stats. And then he went into BlizzCon and yet again seemed completly untouchable. That is what made his 2018 so incredible. Not really the fact that he lost two series or something like that in the entire year. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 12 2024 01:59 Balnazza wrote: What you fail to mention is why Serrals regional results are impressive - up to this point, no one has ever dominated the WCS Circuit. None of the koreans, none of the foreign top players. Serral came in and took it in dominating fashion. Then he came into GSL vs. the World and destroyed two of the best koreans of all time (Innovation/Dark) and won it over Stats. And then he went into BlizzCon and yet again seemed completly untouchable. That is what made his 2018 so incredible. Not really the fact that he lost two series or something like that in the entire year. Neeb literally won 3 out of 4 WCS the previous year and the koreans couldn't dominate it because they couldn't play in it as you know very well. Nowadays region-locked events are worth a bit more because foreigners are a lot stronger now, but back then the competition in foreign tournaments really wasn't impressive. I mean, freaking Has made it to the finals | ||
|
Pandain
United States12985 Posts
On June 12 2024 01:27 Charoisaur wrote: Hard disagree on Serral's 2018 - Right now Serral is the most dominant player ever but his 2018 is way overrated. He got 0-3ed in IEM Katowice and WESG and then didn't lose a series for the rest of the year... which sounds impressive but looking deeper into it he entered only 2 tournaments with all the best players in the world. Winning two tournaments in a row is good, but others have done that too. Rogue even won 3 tournaments in a row in 2017 with IEM Shanghai - GSL Super tournament and Blizzcon. The only thing Serral's 2018 has over Rogue's streak (or ByuN, Dear, Maru, all the other players that won 2 tournaments in a row) is additionally farming a circuit where he faced Has and Mana in the finals You're leaving out HSC 18, HomeStory Cup/18, where Serral also beat Bunny, Bly, Trap, soO, Stephano, souL, Hellsraiser, Taeja, uThermal, Bunny again, and Innovation. I mean these kinds of three major tournament wins in a row are crazy impressive. But the absolutely insane thing is not like any single tournament alone, including the WCS region locked ones. It's that across an insane amount of series he didn't lose one.. Even the absolute top dogs at any time would regularly drop a series. Serral going like 60-0 (or whatever he did) is immensely more impressive then going 59-1. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 12 2024 02:34 Pandain wrote: You're leaving out HSC 18, HomeStory Cup/18, where Serral also beat Bunny, Bly, Trap, soO, Stephano, souL, Hellsraiser, Taeja, uThermal, Bunny again, and Innovation. I mean these kinds of three major tournament wins in a row are crazy impressive. But the absolutely insane thing is not like any single tournament alone, including the WCS region locked ones. It's that across an insane amount of series he didn't lose one.. Even the absolute top dogs at any time would regularly drop a series. Serral going like 60-0 (or whatever he did) is immensely more impressive then going 59-1. I left HSC out because it didn't qualify for the criteria of including "all the best players in the world". Serral going 60-0 is impressive and unique but unique mostly because the opponents top players face are usually much better on average. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
That was much less of a thing back in the day, never mind the big tournaments but even at slightly lower levels. A Summer of Taeja was notable enough if we go back, and those weren’t all the blue ribbon events. There’s also a bit of a cumulative multiplier in doing it all simultaneously. Ticking off those lesser tournaments while also peaking for the biggest of all, even now is still quite a rare thing. Hell a Rogue, or perhaps Reynor last year have this reputation for regardless of disappointing tournaments to show up big for those blue ribbon events. Serral was doing both in that span. It was a pretty remarkable sequence, even in terms of victories in those events, but when we factor in him not merely winning, but just not dropping series it’s pretty crazy. I think a pretty fair argument can be made that Rogue had a better year prior, or Maru winning 4 GSLs on the spin was as, or more impressive but I wouldn’t say it is overrated either | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
On June 12 2024 03:05 Charoisaur wrote: I left HSC out because it didn't qualify for the criteria of including "all the best players in the world". Serral going 60-0 is impressive and unique but unique mostly because the opponents top players face are usually much better on average. If the criteria is ‘all of the best players in the world’ then GSL hasn’t had that for 6 years. Homestory Cup is a more relaxed tournament, and the field does tend to fluctuate in quality tournament to tournament but that’s a pretty decent list of scalps. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17601 Posts
On June 11 2024 23:48 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I'm not arguing with the conclusions, merely pointing out that using "winnings" as evidence of performance is a terrible metric. eh, prize money is divided by region not in-game-race, the split by region affects discussions about nationalities but not in-game-races | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 12 2024 03:27 WombaT wrote: If the criteria is ‘all of the best players in the world’ then GSL hasn’t had that for 6 years. Homestory Cup is a more relaxed tournament, and the field does tend to fluctuate in quality tournament to tournament but that’s a pretty decent list of scalps. Yeah I'm fine with not counting recent GSLs under this criteria. During Maru's 4 peat though virtually all top players (everyone except Serral) were playing in GSL which is still a significant step up from HSC | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland24316 Posts
It’s that Serral was just winning all the time that’s the impressive part, not merely the trophies. He’s not barely scraping out of groups, or relying on a second bite of the cherry in a double elimination bracket. Plus his failures of the year are losing to Maru at WESG and winning the third place playoff, and a semi-final at Katowice. Even a Blizzcon, a 3rd and a semi-final in those 3 big money events is a fine year for an SC2 pro, if you add literally winning everything else you entered for the rest of the year, minus Nationwars (where you still got 2 all-kills for a one-man team effectively) I’ve a hard time considering that year overrated | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On June 12 2024 11:14 WombaT wrote: I don’t think anyone is arguing that HSC is equivalent to a GSL, merely that given a pretty decent field it’s impressive as part of a wider year which included a preposterously long span of not losing a series in competition. It’s that Serral was just winning all the time that’s the impressive part, not merely the trophies. He’s not barely scraping out of groups, or relying on a second bite of the cherry in a double elimination bracket. Plus his failures of the year are losing to Maru at WESG and winning the third place playoff, and a semi-final at Katowice. Even a Blizzcon, a 3rd and a semi-final in those 3 big money events is a fine year for an SC2 pro, if you add literally winning everything else you entered for the rest of the year, minus Nationwars (where you still got 2 all-kills for a one-man team effectively) I’ve a hard time considering that year overrated The user talked about Serral's 2018 results being comparable to Flash's 2010. In that context it's overrated as I view even Rogue's 2017 and Maru's 2018 better than Serral's 2018. On its own Serral's 2018 was of course extremely impressive and one of the best years a player had but it often gets talked better than it was, probably because people just get so dazzled by the unprecedented unbeaten streak, which is again, while impressive not quite as impressive as it sounds if you look deeper into it. | ||
|
lookman
9 Posts
| ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3340 Posts
The WCS's do count though, remember that Serral could not get to where he is without the other non-koreans paving the way. Snute, Nerchio, Neeb, Scarlett and others. Around this period Neeb won Kespa cup and got to the ro4 in the GSL beating Rogue. Scarlett won Pyongchang and got to the ro8 in the GSL beating Zest and INnoVation. Then we had the 2019 GSL vs. the World where Classic was the only Korean making it to the ro4. Has and MaNa never repeated this success, but they did rise to the occasion, it wasn't that the tournaments were barren. | ||
|
NoobSkills
United States1597 Posts
| ||
|
Maksim2010
35 Posts
| ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
He also has astrelisk due to lack of GSL, but at this point, I think that point is a large moot, as Serral has shown to perform in various high stake tournaments and overwhelmingly crushed maru multiple times. However, the astrelisk on him really is on him becoming good only after relative competition was down - other greats like innovation had to play against competitiion incredibly fierce with very deep pro pool that it was much harder to maintain dominance in, whereas pro pool now is limited to very few players that are aging. On other hand, FlaSh performed both at BW's relative competitive peak in proleague days and skill peak in ASL days. However, most korean communities disregard ASL achievements mostly with grain of salt due to there being less relative competition, as there has always been generation cycles and upcoming players that replaced previous greats in past. That stopped at end of proleague era where players like soulkey, innovation, soo and others moved on to sc2. If SnOw starts dominating ASL like he dominants BW online proleagues, i dont think he would be registered as GOAT as it's era beyond the peak "aliveness" of the scene. Don't get me wrong, BW in korea is still very healthy viewership and money wise, but its having same problem as SC2 on new blood being far and few. Now, you can argue GOAT is just measuring greastest of all time skill-wise, but if you just go purely by that without accounting other factors like relative competition, other sports GOAT wouldn't apply as modern players are arguably better pure skill-wise compared to say Pele or Gretzky. It's unfortunate that Serral became amazing as he is bit too late as I'm pretty sure he would have performed very well during Proleague era as well, but this alone is a huge question mark on him. | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:01 LukaMav wrote: Probably better than Flash Serral won during the peak (skillwise) Anything before LOTV was relatively low skill (current high master , low GM at best). People need to remember casters has mentioned many times that any current diamond could win GSL in WOL User was banned for this post. I know it's bait but it's insane there's actually people that seriously believe this- all you have to do is play the game to understand how low level ladder at master league is. This opinion I've only really seriously seen among players who never got to said leagues to understand that. Skillgap from pro to GM is lot bigger than GM to bronze league lol. Current Diamond is actually not that different from HOTS era diamond and same goes to master. Just because top end of playerbase/pros got better doesn't mean general playerbase did. You still see sit still and macro gain incredibly advantage well into master 2-3s from just not missing macro cycles lol. People say same thing about BW, like comparing 2006 or 2007 games to B rank. But then you have people who were aspiring progamers entering mid 30s and failing courage tournaments start playing BW again and hitting 2300+ MMR in few days even when they failed becoming progamer in 2000s. People will always be talented even across different era man. Those top level improvement do not reflect at all to playerbase level. | ||
|
RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
On June 21 2024 11:27 jinjin5000 wrote: I know it's bait but it's insane there's actually people that seriously believe this- all you have to do is play the game to understand how low level ladder at master league is. This opinion I've only really seriously seen among players who never got to said leagues to understand that. Skillgap from pro to GM is lot bigger than GM to bronze league lol. Current Diamond is actually not that different from HOTS era diamond and same goes to master. Just because top end of playerbase/pros got better doesn't mean general playerbase did. You still see sit still and macro gain incredibly advantage well into master 2-3s from just not missing macro cycles lol. People say same thing about BW, like comparing 2006 or 2007 games to B rank. But then you have people who were aspiring progamers entering mid 30s and failing courage tournaments start playing BW again and hitting 2300+ MMR in few days even when they failed becoming progamer in 2000s. People will always be talented even across different era man. Those top level improvement do not reflect at all to playerbase level. To add to this, I've seen a few times when low-mid WoL GMs who haven't played since 2012 come back and regain high Master very easily, all they have to do is macro even if they don't know the strats. | ||
|
radracer
United States69 Posts
| ||
|
Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
Koreans can't even name 5 pros who participated in GSL/etc way back in 2018. SC2 was like such a dead game in korean scene. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 21 2024 12:07 RPR_Tempest wrote: To add to this, I've seen a few times when low-mid WoL GMs who haven't played since 2012 come back and regain high Master very easily, all they have to do is macro even if they don't know the strats. It depends on the players though. Adelscott and GoOdy were good back in WoL, but since they are "slow hands" type of players, LotV doesn't suit them well imho, so that's why they get stuck relatively quickly (especially GoOdy) despite playing a significant amount of LotV. Otoh, someone who was good mechanically in WoL could come back and be decent at LotV pretty quickly Being patient / taking good decisions is easier to "coach" someone into (like Lambo with Reynor) if they have good mechanics; while if your hands are not capable of executing fast you'll have to find workaround for more situations But yeah the skillgap between pros and random GM is very very big. There are a lot of layers in Starcraft 2, it's just that there is also a lot of variance in sc2 that makes people think the skill gap isn't as big as it actually is | ||
|
RowdierBob
Australia12939 Posts
Flash is the BW goat, yes but the transition to sc2 in the 2010s took out some of his biggest rivals. I’d argue Jangbi and Fantasy at a minimum had surpassed him. It’s a bit of a shame neither ever came back to BW seriously. Flash was obvs practising a lot of sc2 by the end but his era of dominance faded after the KA OSL2. Alright, come at me BW nerds. | ||
|
Poopi
France12761 Posts
On June 21 2024 19:36 RowdierBob wrote: Cat amongst the pigeons but I’ll have a crack. Flash is the BW goat, yes but the transition to sc2 in the 2010s took out some of his biggest rivals. I’d argue Jangbi and Fantasy at a minimum had surpassed him. It’s a bit of a shame neither ever came back to BW seriously. Flash was obvs practising a lot of sc2 by the end but his era of dominance faded after the KA OSL2. Alright, come at me BW nerds. I don't have much knowledge about BW, but I have the gut feeling that INnoVation would have ended up destroying everyone in BW if Kespa players weren't forced to play sc2 I mean, he might not have the sheer motivation to keep dominating / destroying people, but I am pretty sure that there would be at least a decent portion of time in which he would have been invincible However, maintaining your dominance is what separates "GOAT" contenders from merely Bonjwa (afaik) ; so given Flash's work ethic, it's highly probable he would have found a way to remain the top dog in BW, no matter his competition (be it FantaSy, jangbi, Rain, INno, whatever...) That's probably INno's biggest flaw: the guy is too complacent because he is incredibly fucking gifted, and he knows it. | ||
|
Mizenhauer
United States1804 Posts
On June 21 2024 19:47 Poopi wrote: I don't have much knowledge about BW, but I have the gut feeling that INnoVation would have ended up destroying everyone in BW if Kespa players weren't forced to play sc2 I mean, he might not have the sheer motivation to keep dominating / destroying people, but I am pretty sure that there would be at least a decent portion of time in which he would have been invincible However, maintaining your dominance is what separates "GOAT" contenders from merely Bonjwa (afaik) ; so given Flash's work ethic, it's highly probable he would have found a way to remain the top dog in BW, no matter his competition (be it FantaSy, jangbi, Rain, INno, whatever...) That's probably INno's biggest flaw: the guy is too complacent because he is incredibly fucking gifted, and he knows it. The guy was receiving a max salary from SKT for multiple years. Even when he didn't do so well individually, he was one of the team's best players in Proleague and was making roughly 80-90k a year USD because of it. He knew that as long as he did the minimum and showed out in Proleague he wouldn't be hurting for dough. | ||
|
Harris1st
Germany6802 Posts
In SC2 to take the bigger cuts you actually had to perform individually while in BW most money comes in as salary and team wins. Don't have numbers, feel free to correct me EDIT: Serral has 3-4 times the winnings of Flash in a 4th of the timespan. That's like 16 times more effective. Obviously inflation is a thing but still | ||
|
jinjin5000
United States1397 Posts
On June 21 2024 20:10 Harris1st wrote: That might be one of the biggest differences / motivators between BW and SC2 In SC2 to take the bigger cuts you actually had to perform individually while in BW most money comes in as salary and team wins. Don't have numbers, feel free to correct me EDIT: Serral has 3-4 times the winnings of Flash in a 4th of the timespan. That's like 16 times more effective. Obviously inflation is a thing but still is this a serious post lol | ||
| ||
