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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:23 Nasigil1 wrote: although it's a bit unfair to Serral that he was born too late and didn't catch the golden age of Sc2. This is a silly argument, everybody knows that Facundo Ramirez was, skill-wise, the best raw talent for SC2 the world has ever seen. Sadly the war he experience in his youth, and the fact that he was born in 1927 Spain, made his career almost imposible. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16102 Posts
On June 06 2024 03:33 Argonauta wrote: This is a silly argument, everybody knows that Facundo Ramirez was, skill-wise, the best raw talent for SC2 the world has ever seen. Sadly the war he experience in his youth, and the fact that he was born in 1927 Spain, made his career almost imposible. Yeah we could also say it's a bit unfair to Inno (or whatever player) that he entered the scene when competition was at its peak and it was far harder to win tournaments. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I think, albeit there’s no guarantees of anything but a Serral that surfaced a bit earlier maybe does hit a level of consistency nobody else in that era hits, but not something that parallels some of Flash’s feats | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:26 Beelzebub1 wrote: First off, I love Serral, Serral is currently (and has been) the the most dominant player. But, timing is everything, as people have mentioned, back when SC2 was bumping and competition was at it's absolute peak, Serral was practically a nobody. Back in the KESPA era, BW was extremely competitive, and Flash dominated HARD during the entire time. Serral is amazing, but sorry, no Flash. I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but imo BW is a substantially challenging more game to play as well, so extra points to Flash there as well. I’d say it’s probably harder to dominate the easier game than it is the harder one. I can maybe go 20% win rate against my friend in pool, but this drops to 0% in snooker when the table is much bigger, positional excellence is rewarded further etc. In pool I can get a lucky break, or a fortuitous shot here or there and that can be enough to capitalise on. Of course it’s a not entirely applicable analogy but I think somewhat apt. SC2 is still an incredibly hard game, in ways perhaps harder than BW because it’s a little easier with QoL changes. You can’t close an early deficit with pure macro because most top, top players are able to macro pretty equivalently. Whereas in BW players can gain an edge/recover purely off being really, really good at macroing in a game where the UI is that much more clunky. It’s considerably harder to be even decent at BW for sure, but I think the flipside of this is that it’s probably easier to be dominant when you’re in the 0.1% of the playerbase | ||
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_fool
Netherlands685 Posts
On June 05 2024 23:23 Nasigil1 wrote: Serral is the closest thing we have to Flash, but it's still not comparable I think. When people say "not comparable" they mean "very comparable, with a clear difference in a certain property" | ||
Waxangel
United States33708 Posts
In terms of specifics, Flash and Serral had really, really different careers, so I wouldn't use the comparison for anything deeper than "the best at their respective games." | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Its like from one day to another, all pro football players would retire because no fucking one would watch football games anymore, and all professional clubs like Real Madrid would dissolve, and what is left are some random amateur football players from sunday league. Then you have some random bum who dominates the league. Then this forum would argue that this random bum from this league dominated the game like no other before, where games are ending like 10-0 normally in this league and this dude would have 100 goals a year playing against other fat fucks with health conditions. Would you seriously then discuss that this dude is better than Ronaldo or Messi? Yeah this is what my perspective is whenever I have to read the 50th GOAT discussion on SC2 this month. A complete farce. But whatever helps you cope with your lifes. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1367 Posts
Is Serral as dominant as Flash? Yes, he is. Probably even more dominant. Without checking I'm kind of sure Serral has winrates (in general and against the very best) Flash couldn't reach. Especially 2024-Serral is probably one of the most dominant RTS-players of all time. Are they in the same situation? No, they are absolutely not. Flash played one of the most competitive games of all time in its most competitive era. Which is probably why people rank him so high, even though technically he had more "Bonjwa-competition" compared to Serral. But that is fine, he is still distinguished enough that people put him on that pedestal. So in that regard you can't compare Serral to Flash...in fact, you will be hard pressed to compare anyone to that. There are only a few Esports athletes who outrank Flash. Faker for example. Maybe s1mple in CSGO? Which then of course are teamgames, so it is hard to compare. Lastly, since multiple people mentioned it: No, Happy and Serral are absolutely fucking not in the same boat. WC3 is done, with a very small competitive scene and barely any offline competition...or money. Like...the biggest tournament of 2023 gave out a whopping 2,4K for the winner (Happy). I know, that seems a lot for those who only watch GSL, but that is the kind of money in SC2 that you get for reaching Top 8 in ESL America...Have you checked the EWC-prizepools? SC2 will have one of the biggest prizepools per player at the event, even bigger than Counterstrike. I love WC3 to death, I spend thousands of hours casting it in my youth, but Happy and co. compete for a yearly prizepool Serral earns by falling out of the bed. There is absolutely no comparison between the two scenes. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
And even then, there is zero job security unless you bet on Saudis funding the scene. What happens when those Saudis are realizing that they are not getting any return on investment on SC2 (which they aren't), and that they should rather invest in other forms of propaganda? | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:51 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Please, don't argue with prize pools. There is no new blood because everyone thinks SC2 is that impossible game to even compete with, especially when you just start. No one in their right mind would want to start playing SC2 to make a living, especially given that the only source of income is tournaments and it is HEAVILY top heavy. There is no new blood, but old blood retiring all the time. It is like wanting to train to become a lottery winner. The competition is getting diluted every day. And even then, there is zero job security unless you bet on Saudis funding the scene. What happens when those Saudis are realizing that they are not getting any return on investment on SC2 (which they aren't), and that they should rather invest in other forms of propaganda? YEA, train to become a lottery winner. That has dozens of ppl fighting for it, and always the same guy wins. And almost the same top 4. No skill based at all, pure luck it seems. Very well done on your analogy VERY WELL DONE | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Now imagine Serral not only did that, but retired for 5 years, then came back and won 4 GSLs in a row. And still made top 4 in the hardest tournament as random. The difference is insane Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. Serral might be the best sc2 player, but everything, and I mean everything, about his career is completely different. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:22 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Everyone who won anything before 2012 and after 2015 should not be anywhere close to a discussion of a GOAT lmao That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Its like from one day to another, all pro football players would retire because no fucking one would watch football games anymore, and all professional clubs like Real Madrid would dissolve, and what is left are some random amateur football players from sunday league. Then you have some random bum who dominates the league. Then this forum would argue that this random bum from this league dominated the game like no other before, where games are ending like 10-0 normally in this league and this dude would have 100 goals a year playing against other fat fucks with health conditions. Would you seriously then discuss that this dude is better than Ronaldo or Messi? Yeah this is what my perspective is whenever I have to read the 50th GOAT discussion on SC2 this month. A complete farce. But whatever helps you cope with your lifes. Truly taking myopic fanboyism to whole new levels | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2665 Posts
On June 06 2024 05:22 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: Everyone who won anything before 2012 and after 2015 should not be anywhere close to a discussion of a GOAT lmao That is when the competition was not a complete farce... remember how after KESPA pros came in, a few months later GSL was just full of KESPA while non-KESPA had to flee to Europa and NA, where they dominated foreigners... Then suddenly with the collapse of team houses, foreigners who couldn't even win a single game off Koreans and were lucky to not be 0-4 at WCS won something. Like who the fuck was Neeb lmao. That is the level of collapse and neither Maru, nor Serral deserve to be in the conversation of a GOAT, or even top 50 best players since any random Kespa pro was likely much better than both ever would be. Maru won his first premier in 2013 against Rain who was in SK T1 at the time. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
On June 06 2024 07:36 WombaT wrote: Truly taking myopic fanboyism to whole new levels I guess some people still enjoy watching sunday league football and those few people are all concentrated in this forum. Because otherwise I cannot explain this level of copium and delulu | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
tl.net Higher winrate than Flash so he must be the GOAT Also higher peak elo | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1367 Posts
On June 06 2024 08:10 Expensive-Law-9830 wrote: I guess some people still enjoy watching sunday league football and those few people are all concentrated in this forum. Because otherwise I cannot explain this level of copium and delulu Careful to not cut yourself on all that edge. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
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sidasf
108 Posts
Imagine if Serral had the same winrates he does now, except it was 10 years ago, against a pool of pros 10x bigger, against players actually in their primes and not several years removed. Imagine him still hitting those winrates in Proleague, where the guys he was playing were on salaries and could dedicate weeks to practicing builds just to snipe him.[quote] I don't agree with this comparison. Skill level has risen so drastically since then. Things that amazed people in pro games back then are now done every ladder game by random ass GM players. While I agree there was more competition back then, the level of skill pros play at now is arguable way, way higher than it was 10 years ago. [quote] Now imagine Serral not only did that, but retired for 5 years, then came back and won 4 GSLs in a row. And still made top 4 in the hardest tournament as random. The difference is insane[/quote] Agree here, I don't think Serral is equivalent to Flash. Flash is just something else. [quote]Mvp and Maru are much closer to Flash in terms of their careers. Serral might be the best sc2 player, but everything, and I mean everything, about his career is completely different.[/QUOTE] Naw, Serral shits on Maru and he'd shit on MVP too. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1969 Posts
On June 06 2024 11:26 sidasf wrote: I don't agree with this comparison. Skill level has risen so drastically since then. Things that amazed people in pro games back then are now done every ladder game by random ass GM players. While I agree there was more competition back then, the level of skill pros play at now is arguable way, way higher than it was 10 years ago. Agree here, I don't think Serral is equivalent to Flash. Flash is just something else. Naw, Serral shits on Maru and he'd shit on MVP too. Sullying Mvp's good name is a bannable offense in these forums. | ||
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